You said that Suffering was a necessary condition of progress.
So far you have only given evidence of it being a sufficient condition of progress.
You might want to give evidence for your claim.
All right, to be a little more clear, suffering is a necessary condition of progress for humanity at this moment. Why? Because in order to progress through order, humanity like it is now has to change. I mean, look around you, the only thing people think about is their own basic needs. Like the first crisis proved, this cannot or should not go on forever. Do you think the people are ready for a society without suffering?
Imo, humanity needs a crisis in order to change in order to progress through order.
So:
1) Change is a necessary condition of progress.
2) Suffering is a necessary condition of change.
1+2) Suffering is a necessary condition of progress.
The form of the argument is good and the first premise is acceptable but the second premise needs support.
Education causes change and is usually considered positive (progress). Is suffering a necessary condition of education?
What do you see as progress? Technological advancement?
I consider progress to be something, well, more general I would say. I think I mean the general view of the people on how we are supposed to live. I will try to explain it using an example.
Look at how we lived on the beginning of the previous century. Did education help to move us to our current situation? Well, it was one of the reasons we had both the wars, but lets look a little deeper. In that time we lived in a different kind of society. There were almost no rights for workers, there was no UN, people saw war as something heroic. After the first war that changed a bit, bit it took another war and a period of tension to move to our current situation. Do you think that education alone could have had the same effect as that period of conflict? My guess is no. Education alone may be enough to let some people realize that the current society is wrong, but is is not definetly not enough for such kind of change.
Education was not meant as a means it was meant as an end. The general view of the people is that we should, among other things, become more educated. As such becoming more educated is progress. As such you have claimed that suffering is a necessary condition of education. Or is it that you are dismissing education as not being progress. If so why is education not an example of a kind of progress?
Did education help move us to our present situation? Look around you. Everywhere you look you will see the result of someone
who was educated. Old skills are passed on. New skills are developed. Knowledge is discovered and applied.
1. I did not claim that suffering is a necessary condition of education. If you agree that change is a necessary conditon of progress, than do you also think that education alone may lead to change?
2. Also, I must ask you what you see as progress. Is technological advancement progress?
3. Yes, you are right about education leading to knowledge. But does that knowledge have the ability to change the way we think?
I am not saying Education leads to change leads to progress.
I am saying change can lead to education which is a type of progress.
Progress relative to a goal is moving toward the goal.
When knowledge is the goal, education is progress. When posting is the goal, letters are progress. When making a product, each step is progress.
My overall claim is "There exist forms of progress (like education) that do not require suffering to progress."
Your overall claim is "All forms of progress require suffering to progress."
My current argument:
1) Progress relative to a goal is moving toward the goal.
2) Education moves towards the goal of knowledge.
3) Education does not require suffering
4=1+2) Education is a form of progress
5=3+4) There exist forms of progress (like education) that do not require suffering to progress.
I don't think that you have fully read my view of progress. By progress I do not only mean gaining knowledge, like you do.
What I mean, is that
A. In the current situation there is a need for change to progress. Why? Because in order to progress through order, or as you say education, we need to create a society where that is possible first. That society can only be created through change and thus through suffering.
B. Progress is not only the gaining of knowledge. It is also the general knowledge of the people, or better sais their view of the world. That kind of progress requires change. Why? Because if here was no change we would still be stuck in a feudal society
where only the elite has the right to receive education. Which is what we are going to expirience now, which leads to suffering, and thus leads to change.
So
1. Change will finally lead to a situation where, unlike our current situation, progress is gained through order and education. When that kind of society is made there is no more need for change.
2. To achieve that society we need change.
3. Change requires suffering.
1+2+3. Suffering is required for progres until there is no more need for change. No more need for change leads to no more need for suffering. So to achieve 1 we need to progress through 2+3.
Last, you say:
''I am saying change can lead to education which is a type of progress."So basically you agree with me, you only have to admit that suffering leads to change.
