OETG's 1st Birthday - Current stat

[Sera]

The fact that you're saying "ethically not yours, end of story" while asking us to flesh out on our arguments is laughable. If the owner sees it fit to put it to an end or to make it final, then you would have to respect his decision. Appending something to someone's ideas without consent is already undesirable. People do it all the time, of course with consent. But this kind of attitude is basically saying that WE have the rights on something HE created. This is the only community I've seen with such a level of entitlement of something that's totally not theirs.

Sure, this project can continue because it is still technically legal, but I really hope your joking about the justification of stealing one's idea just because he's not there. And I hope that the condition of keeping everything oETG in a single thread will be implemented. This thread delivers negative connotations about the game, and is certainly not something that someone new, like me, would like to see.

I'm really done here now. Blocked.

[serprex]

DM is right, the hatred and bias is too deep here to have any points come across to either side

I'm not opposed to ceasing my personal involvement in development, unfortunately the main proponent for that has decided that arguing isn't useless &, instead of ever talking to me, has decided to declare that I'm a lovely person

Ignoring ITR, rational discussion can be had here. While everyone is rising to defend Zanz since he isn't here, people aren't talking about my freedoms at all. There's talk of oetg's right to exist, but in reality we're talking about antiaverage's right to host etg.dek.im & my right to program. Programming is a creative process, & the code I've written is my original creation, even if the resulting program isn't

Essentially we have a disagreement on whether one should begin work before or after explicit permission. Issue: this disagreement is asymmetrical. There's those who say I should be free to act in however I answer this moral question, & those who say I should not be free to act

If you disagree with my actions, I'm alright with that. Perhaps you believe the existence of my work should be censored. I feel that's a bit drastic, but I've never been for censoring on any topic (sharing encryption code is legally viewed as exporting munitions.. strange world)

The crux of the issue is that if one goes about this argument by attempting to impose their morality on me, I'm going to ignore them like I've ignored any religious or political rallying. I'm going to assume they're using me as a platform to talk about themselves. Your morality dictates how you decide to live life, not how I live mine

Yesterday in chat I said it'd be nice to essentially take a vacation. It went ignored. This topic has become too heated, people need to fall back & laugh a little. Humor is how people consider things differently than they usually would, & it's by viewing different perspectives that understanding is found

In short, those against the existence of oetg have gone about it wrong. They've been unclear in what action they want, because "cease development entirely" isn't actually an action any single person can take. If I leave, development may still continue

Possible actions to argue for:
antiaverage should cease hosting etg.dek.im
serprex should cease development of oetg
Fippe should give up codevelopment of oetg
Council should decide oetg's existence should be censored on this forum (does that include banning anyone who mentions it in chat?)

The last is what bripod seemed to be arguing for

These arguments need to be civil. Not being civil is what makes sides stop listening. In that way ITR's actively worked against reconsidering oetg's development

I wasn't active when these arguments were originally being made. I disagree with arguments Shinki's made. This is something that I think is occuring with everyone: we attempt to divide the opinions into two camps, yet there's disagreements between them

For the against-oetg crowd, there's disagreement over what's wrong. Some say the issue is the random changes made to existing cards, warping the original creation. Yet if we're talking about originality, then it'd seem that making an exact duplicate is less moral than making one with changes. In short, there's never been too much discussion about oetg-v, which is designed as a tool

Anyways I'm feeling a bit tired as of late, & taking a break from development really is something I'm considering again. Here again there's confusion: when people say "cease development of oetg" do they mean "shut down the site" or "stop expanding on the code"?

tl;dr am I even involved in this debate, or are we just nazal gazing about what antiaverage should do? PS try not to saturate this discussion with noise

Also it was probably pretty stupid of me to sit down & write a bunch of random words. I guess I'll just wait for the random people who declare "+1" or "-1" about the post & then go on to rip my words apart for whatever motive they like. Oh well, there aren't really any possible consequences to my actions here. I'll go hang out with my cat again, at least she knows how to play fight nicely

[Shinki12345]

I was going to respond to this after posting my recent response basically saying to take your arguments to a different thread, but I got preoccupied and didn't get the chance.

I want to talk a little bit about oETG and what makes it unique from a pvp standpoint.

The meta game is vastly undiscovered and there are virtually endless decks that can be made to combat various strategies due to the existence of 100+ new cards in the game. Vanilla EtG often has the unfortunate "paper-rock-scissors" effect where countering becomes the biggest source of victory. However, as the match I had with D2D the other day proved, matches are often decided based on adaptation, versatility, and most of all: attrition. Attrition is much more present in the game and makes the game feel much less like RNG and more about timing.

In addition to the undiscovered meta game, there is much more effort out into balancing the game then in the original. The devs(especially Serprex) have put a lot of effort into keeping the game balanced, and as a result they have created a much more well balanced card base for each element. You would never realize how unbalanced vanilla is until you experience oETG pvp. 

[inthisroom]

These arguments need to be civil. Not being civil is what makes sides stop listening. In that way ITR's actively worked against reconsidering oetg's development

Here is the first post I ever made on that topic and that started it all:

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/general-discussion/openetg/msg1132914/#msg1132914

Reading up on this, on my following posts and the reaction I received for them, you can see I was civil until I got actively insulted for any objection I could make to oEtG.

Your post seems sensible to read, but it is still only a justification of someone who took what wasn't theirs, putting great effort into robbing a bank doesn't make the robbery right.

[serprex]

I agree your original posts were civil, unfortunately we never got to discuss things civilly between ourselves. That doesn't change the nature of how you interact with me presently. I don't have anything to discuss with those who don't disagree with the existence of oetg; that said, I often disagree with how they react to disapproval

Intellectual property is a weird thing to discuss using material metaphors. The act of stealing data is in reality replication. Perhaps a metaphor of counterfeit is more correct. Preferably metaphor can be avoided unless necessary

[theelkspeaks]

This thread was a shit idea and I don't know why it was even attempted. If it was any more obvious that this would quickly derail into an useless pages-long argument you could just call this "Flaming Thread" and call it a day.

Happy birthday to oEtG though.

so much this

DM is right, the hatred and bias is too deep here to have any points come across to either side. But, for the sake of people still in questioning what they believe about oETG, I feel obligated to continue.

I spoke to serprex, and he talked about an "easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission" attitude. I disagree entirely with this, especially in the case of taking someone's work without explicit permission.

Zanz has the same attitude regarding his absences so it's ironic that you say that.

Also, yes, if you abandon something then ethically it is not yours, end of story. Leaving something for 2 years with no real updates is abandoning it. People do this all the time, they love something and hate to see it come to an end so they continue the work after the person has stopped showing interest in the original project.

Posts like this are causing me to lean far more in the direction of banning oetg altogether.

[serprex]

I don't view Zanz's absense as justification, only as a fact that makes getting his view on the matter difficult. If he was active, I'd still develop oetg unless he said he was uncomfortable with it

[Dm]

Anyone who isn't serprex, fippe, or anyone who has been directly related to the creation of oEtG should just shut up and stop trying to justify it. We have not, do not, and will not care about your opinion. Yes, shinki, I'm looking at you and your extremely flawed arguments that even the developer of oEtG disagrees with.

My views on oEtG is that it is wrong to take someone's work without their explicit authorization, but zanz has vanished for two years now (the reason being irrelevant to me) and the fact that serprex coded it from start is also a valid point that this isn't just a carbon copy. Serprex also shows that he's willing to stop progression on oEtG and even shut it down if Zanz so requires, and the point has been made multiple times that Zanz has tried to be contacted about this. Whether he's not answering because this saddens him or not is something I don't really care about either, but since he came back to fix PvP servers, it is obvious that he did not answer by choice.

Regardless of whatever anyone here thinks, oEtG is going to continue developing, and some people enjoy playing it like any other game, and the fact that it does not have zanz' explicit approval does not take away the fact that currently, it is a wholly different game on a whole different code on a whole different forum that only has EtG as a basis. oEtG already has it's own forum, and I believe that oEtG discussion should be limited to that forums, OR to the thread in G&D, and any other oEtG talk should be instantly locked because it's just polluting our forum.

And no. I don't think this is too harsh.

[Shinki12345]

Anyone who isn't serprex, fippe, or anyone who has been directly related to the creation of oEtG should just shut up and stop trying to justify it. We have not, do not, and will not care about your opinion. Yes, shinki, I'm looking at you and your extremely flawed arguments that even the developer of oEtG disagrees with.

My apologies. My original intent was not to justify it, but to say that he should expect people to take over his work if he is absent for too long.

I guess I got to wrapped up in trying to defend the project, I'm sorry everyone.

[Dm]

It's okay. It's easy to get carried away in stuff like this. Just make sure you're not trying to justify something with your view of ethics when they might not even apply to the one who started the project in the first place.

Edit: And before anyone call me for personal bias, I like lots of people on both sides of the spectrum, think serprex and Fippe are both really nice guys, and I also think that oEtG is a really nice idea.

[dawn to dusk]

in relation to the talk about oEtG in EtG forums topic, any new threads about oEtG should be locked and any posts made in other threads, be reported to a moderator where the end result be determined by UTA or AA or whoever.
in chat, any lingering discussions on oEtG (longer than say, 5-10 messages) should have mod action taken. pm'ing in chat about oetg should be fine, and a quick, non-flamebait reference could be fine, but anything more than that could result in flame wars starting and therefore, should have mod action taken.

as a continuation of this, any sigs or avatars with an obvious relation to oetg should be requested to be taken down or removed.

[Dm]

Disagreed.

Censoring oEtG because it has potential to start a flame war in chat is wrong. All conversations within the rules of PG-13 and that aren't outright insulting are allowed until the moment they become so. Censoring a topic because it may end up unfavorable is wrong.