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Offline UTAlan

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Re: OETG's 1st Birthday - Current stat https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57296.msg1174401#msg1174401
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2015, 12:06:05 am »
Discussion on this is perfectly fine, but please avoid flaming.

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Flaming: Do not post any messages that harass, insult (name calling), belittle, threaten or mock other members. Debates are fine, but critique the opinion, not the person. Personal attacks are not permitted.

Offline theelkspeaks

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Re: OETG's 1st Birthday - Current stat https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57296.msg1174403#msg1174403
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2015, 12:12:41 am »
vrt has generally been one of the biggest advocates for respecting artists and original content, and I know that he's on board with oetg.  I'd be curious to hear his responses to Physsion/itr in this thread if he'd be willing to provide them.

I've struggled personally with whether the existence of oetg is respectful or not of zanz's property, and I've definitely felt both in favor of and against oetg at different points in time based on the arguments made by others, and I think hearing vrt's reasons why he supports it would be interesting to me.

On the one hand, some pieces of it (especially oetg-v) feel like a "tool" to me, where players can experiment with features not in the regular game (PVP with increased HP, mark, dexterity, etc), and allow for players to quickly PVP-test for events in order to decide things like which cards to upgrade (very valuable if they're on a budget) as well as honestly a faster and less unstable PVP for testing with.

On the other hand, I'm a person who tries to take intellectual property seriously, even owning a fairly significant real-physical-CDs music collection (nearly 200 hours of music, the vast majority of which is on physical CDs and ripped to computer; a small amount from legal downloads), trying to buy books or get them from the library to support the authors, not using adblock on any site, and so on.  Several of my real-life friends and acquaintances are aspiring artists, and I've heard from them and from the artists I follow on tumblr/twitter about the various ways art isn't respected nearly enough today.  It's that part of me that oetg doesn't 100% sit quite right with.

It somewhat seems to parallel the creation of DotA using Warcraft III resources to some extent, except that was made using a map editor that was actually part of the base game, and not just open-source created, and thus bears some amount of tacit approval by the game's original developer (while oetg does not)

I understand, before the strongest oetg advocates say it for me, that the game is LEGALLY acceptable due to using different art and due to writing the code from scratch.  Ethically, however, is the grey area that I'm trying to address, and I'm still struggling with figuring out where ethics lie in this dilemma.


I'd like to propose, in response to itr and others' concern about oetg possibly being what drove Zanz away, that the makers of oetg write a direct letter to zanz both detailing the existence of oetg, and stating their willingness to destroy it if zanz so requests, as well as their intentions to respect his IP and make a loving alternate version rather than merely take from it.  Such a letter, I should hope, would demonstrate good faith to zanz, and maybe even bring him back, had he left due to that reason.

What sources we have, as far as I can tell, suggest that zanz has RL reasons rather than player-induced reasons to have been away from EtG for so long.  I don't mean to criticize zanz for his absence.  RL can and even must come before flash games, even popular and profitable ones, and I really do understand that sometimes family and life are demanding on one's time.  I'd just like one more layer of assurances that it's not us, his community, driving him away, because that would be sad indeed.

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Offline serprex

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Re: OETG's 1st Birthday - Current stat https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57296.msg1174410#msg1174410
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2015, 12:29:07 am »
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/elements-council/elements-council-general-discussion-and-feedback/msg1155331/#msg1155331

Council's Open Letter included a paragraph regarding his approval/disapproval of oetg. From what I know, no reply to that letter was ever received. I would have nothing more to ask beyond what's addressed in that paragraph

Offline Naesala

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Re: OETG's 1st Birthday - Current stat https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57296.msg1174412#msg1174412
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2015, 01:02:37 am »
Correct. I sent the letter to zanzarino and he has never responded in any form, be it forum post or email to me.
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Re: OETG's 1st Birthday - Current stat https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57296.msg1174417#msg1174417
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2015, 01:33:24 am »
Quick question: from what I understand, it was Higurashi who made the final call on OEtG's ability to stay here, with the condition that it be mostly limited to one thread. Are we, the rest of the staff, still holding to this policy?

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Re: OETG's 1st Birthday - Current stat https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57296.msg1174420#msg1174420
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2015, 01:47:54 am »
Quick question: from what I understand, it was Higurashi who made the final call on OEtG's ability to stay here, with the condition that it be mostly limited to one thread. Are we, the rest of the staff, still holding to this policy?
i was concerned about this as well tbh

imo, this thread could be merged with the original OEtG thread

Offline Shinki12345

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Re: OETG's 1st Birthday - Current stat https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57296.msg1174421#msg1174421
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2015, 01:56:08 am »
I respect and understand where people are coming from when they are against the project, its hard to argue that oETG isn't "Stealing" from zanz and it definitely comes close to disrespecting the work he put into the game. However, zanz abandoned the game(whether he wanted to or not), and if you abandon something then you have to accept that it might not be "yours" anymore when you come back to it.

I mean, if he had said "I will be in-active for a while, I don't know when I will be back" then I would 100% be against the project, I completely agree that taking someones work when they are planning to come back to it is wrong. I don't have anything personal against him, he probably just became disinterested in the project and thats totally ok, but you can't just leave without saying anything and expect everything to be the same when you get back, that is foolishness, and Zanzarino is not a fool.

If you still think oETG is un-ethical, then I would like to hear your thoughts on it in a more fleshed out way.
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Re: OETG's 1st Birthday - Current stat https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57296.msg1174423#msg1174423
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2015, 02:10:34 am »
But that's just wrong. Just because you don't continue development doesn't mean that you're giving it away. Is it even foolish to secure your rights to something you built? It's more foolish to think that one has the right to steal something just because he's not there to guard it. Are we really justifying the idea of "he's not there, so we're free to take it"?

It's already disrespect enough to drive a creator's work into another path without permission - and it's even more disrespect to say that we can do whatever we want, just because he's not there anymore. It's like we're acting that we're entitled to doing whatever we want to his content, that's just ridiculous.

I really didn't want to say anything more about this topic, but this kind of entitlement really infuriates me. Even I would be totally disappointed if someone gets data from my articles for use without permission - what more for a full game?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 02:14:04 am by Puff »

Offline inthisroom

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Re: OETG's 1st Birthday - Current stat https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57296.msg1174424#msg1174424
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2015, 02:15:24 am »
I respect and understand where people are coming from when they are against the project, its hard to argue that oETG isn't "Stealing" from zanz and it definitely comes close to disrespecting the work he put into the game. However, zanz abandoned the game(whether he wanted to or not), and if you abandon something then you have to accept that it might not be "yours" anymore when you come back to it.

I mean, if he had said "I will be in-active for a while, I don't know when I will be back" then I would 100% be against the project, I completely agree that taking someones work when they are planning to come back to it is wrong. I don't have anything personal against him, he probably just became disinterested in the project and thats totally ok, but you can't just leave without saying anything and expect everything to be the same when you get back, that is foolishness, and Zanzarino is not a fool.

If you still think oETG is un-ethical, then I would like to hear your thoughts on it in a more fleshed out way.

oEtG has NOT started AFTER he went inactive, work on 1.4 was then already well underway as the new interface in trainer shows.

Zanzarino has often had prolongued absences before, taking his inactivity as a justification to steal the content of this game and putting it as if it was his own fault that this happened just shows the general attitude of those who use this as their personal playground.

Offline Dm

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Re: OETG's 1st Birthday - Current stat https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57296.msg1174425#msg1174425
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2015, 02:17:04 am »
This thread was a shit idea and I don't know why it was even attempted. If it was any more obvious that this would quickly derail into an useless pages-long argument you could just call this "Flaming Thread" and call it a day.

Happy birthday to oEtG though.

Offline dawn to dusk

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Re: OETG's 1st Birthday - Current stat https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57296.msg1174426#msg1174426
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2015, 02:17:34 am »
This thread was a shit idea and I don't know why it was even attempted. If it was any more obvious that this would quickly derail into an useless pages-long argument you could just call this "Flaming Thread" and call it a day.

Happy birthday to oEtG though.
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Re: OETG's 1st Birthday - Current stat https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=57296.msg1174427#msg1174427
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2015, 02:17:59 am »
...and if you abandon something then you have to accept that it might not be "yours" anymore when you come back to it.
This... this is so wrong.

Do you really believe this? That by taking an extended break from something you created (as mentioned above me, most likely due to real-life reasons) that you forfeit your ownership to it? That it becomes someone else's property for them to do with as they please?

You're asking to hear our opinions in a more "fleshed-out" way - what more do you want to hear? Zanz's original ideas were taken, modified and distributed under a new title without his permission. Whether he is physically able to reply to us, we don't know. For all we know, he could be travelling the world, with every intention to get back to developing his game. What we do know is that he never said he was okay with this project going ahead.

I spoke to serprex, and he talked about an "easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission" attitude. I disagree entirely with this, especially in the case of taking someone's work without explicit permission.

I see the developers and supporters hiding behind their "if he's not okay with it, he can just tell us" argument - ask yourselves, how would you feel if you were put in the same position?


EDIT: aaaaaand I've been beaten to it again, by Puff this time.
EDIT2: and more people!

 

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