Zanzarino (Lead Developer) speaks about new features

[Marvaddin]

They are used nonstop because they need a nerf.

This is what he said, so we can assume the 'used nonstop' cards need nerfs, they are used due to this, according to him. So if Basilisk Blood becomes used nonstop, it has turned into a OP card, and should be nerfed. To me amount of use is not proof of OP. Like said, maybe its not the SN case, but were all those other cards OP?

If a deck can win consistently in 10 turns, it has a late game around 8-12 turns. If you play this deck, you know what cards you need to start, in mid game and in late game. Because its an accelerated deck, it can reach late game stage faster than other decks, but there is a late game for sure. At least is what I think, or is there a turn limit to what should be called late game? And I got that it wouldnt affect the result in most cases, but again, is this necessary in late game?

If cost of SN is just increased to 3, people would need 3 quanta, and after having it, could play a single SN. If using mark of entropy (normal in SN decks), could play another in next turn (a result very near the singularity nerf, but with a start in 3 turns instead of 2). If using other mark and QT, the chance of getting the entropy quanta needed could be unreliable. Using entropy pillars could justify using them a bit faster, anyway, cards that cost 5 or more of non entropy elements wouldnt be so used. We could at least try this before creating these crazy experiments, lol

[OldTrees]

They are used nonstop because they need a nerf.

This is what he said, so we can assume the 'used nonstop' cards need nerfs

Need nerf -> used non stop =/= used non stop -> Need nerf
A -> B == !B -> !A  =/= B -> A
Simple boolean logic

[Marvaddin]

Of course, great idea guru. All cards that need nerfs are used non-stop, but not all cards that are used non-stop need nerfs, right? Hmmm, lets test this.

In the poll here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,4031.0.html), Discord got more votes about being OP than SN. Quicksand and Dim Shield got the same number of votes, while Black Hole is very close. To me its clear that Quicksand needs a nerf. Its very powerful for a minimum amount of quanta, and looks like many people may agree. But it never got nerfed. To me, the reason is clear: its not non-stop used. Needing nerf doesnt mean being non-stop used, and cards that arent non-stop used dont get a nerf.

On other hand, we can assume that not all cards that are non-stop used get nerfed. But maybe you can help me to remember some of these cards that are non-stop used and never got nerfed, beyond QT, of course.

I would like to believe that Zanz is balancing cards instead of balancing use, but for now it doesnt seem true.

[BluePriest]

Zanz is nerfing discord.... Albeit a small one, but a nerf nonetheless

[dragonsdemesne]

The other thing to remember about polls is that they reflect common opinion, not accurate facts.  Dimensional shield got a high number of votes, yet it's not overpowered; most of the players who voted for it are probably newbies playing monolife or monoair against ai3 or something.  Fire lance is another card people consistently whine about, yet it's only really used in one deck, firestall.  If, hypothetically, Flooding were to suddenly get 1000 votes for being overpowered, does that mean it's overpowered?  No.

The polls can give a rough idea of what cards need balancing, but, ideally, it would be left up to the people who understand the game the best, rather than the masses, how to balance cards.  In other words, nerfing cards should be a dictatorship, not a democracy :p

[OldTrees]

@Marvaddin
I spoke for BluePriest. I cannot speak for Zanz. However signs point to Zanz rebalancing based on usage rather than imbalance.

However I can say that the impact an imbalanced card has on the metagame does scale with its usage. So the magnitude of the imbalance X the magnitude of the versatility = the magnitude of the effect of the imbalance on the metagame. This means a imbalanced quanta producer will have a greater impact than an imbalanced dragon.

However there does seem to be evidence that Zanz expects different tiers of usage for different types of cards. Pillars have not been nerfed. CC staples are usually left alone.

[RRQJ]

Why I think it shouldnt be 100%, RRQJ? Entropy is the element that takes risks. Not everytime, of course, but a lot. When you use the Elf in your creature, you can kill it. When you use Chaos Seed or Pandemonium (even more unupped), you are taking risks. When you use Dissipation Shield, you are playing with your quanta, which is risky. Whats the point of chaining SNs if you know it will be bad? I know the point of the nerf is exactly this, but a margin should be given to entropy to risk

Like I said, maxwell's demon, butterfly effect, antimatter, etc. all have guaranteed effects.  Not everything related to entropy has to be random or have a chance.


On another note, do you still get the quanta from a chained SN (i.e. you gain the quanta and create a singularity)?  If not, then I agree this is a fancier way of preventing SN chains (that new OTK is likely an oversight, so I'm not counting it for the moment) and would be equivalent to hard coding SN so that only one can be used per turn.

[OldTrees]

On another note, do you still get the quanta from a chained SN (i.e. you gain the quanta and create a singularity)?  If not, then I agree this is a fancier way of preventing SN chains (that new OTK is likely an oversight, so I'm not counting it for the moment) and would be equivalent to hard coding SN so that only one can be used per turn.

The Entropy quanta is only produced with the first SN.

[TheonlyrealBeef]

Zanz entered new chat!

Spoiler for relevant chat text:

[2012-04-08 21:47:05] Jenkar: zanzarino, any idea of werether 1.30 will be put into real game before waR?
[2012-04-08 21:48:39] zanzarino: I am still testing it and removing bugs (as many as possible)
[2012-04-08 21:49:06] zanzarino: The new version is almost ready - I am about to test it in the pvp environment
[2012-04-08 21:49:30] zanzarino: And it coudl take days or hours to find and remove all the pvp bugs
[2012-04-08 21:49:38] zanzarino: could*
[2012-04-08 21:50:38] zanzarino: I'll be lurking here and testing the new version. I'll be back later

[2012-04-09 00:31:59] zanzarino: Any nasty bug I should know of before i make the final touched for 1.30?
[2012-04-09 00:32:18] TheonlyrealBeef: ‹@zanzarino› Well, there's some exploits...
(followed by long pm conversation leading to bug fix)
[2012-04-09 00:33:06] willng3: Is my Jade Staff final blow not giving me an EM a nasty bug?
[2012-04-09 00:33:23] zanzarino: wil: fixed
[2012-04-09 00:34:24] pikachufan2164: ‹@zanzarino› Arena rank doesn't match leaderboard rank: elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,37631.0.html
[2012-04-09 00:36:18] zanzarino: Pikachu I know about that it usually just a few positions and it it because of the way the database orders decks that have the same score
[2012-04-09 00:39:15] zanzarino: Ok, I have my list of bugs, I'll back in a few months when I am done fixing them

[2012-04-09 04:50:34] zanzarino: Is anyone here feeling like trying ver 1.3?
[2012-04-09 04:50:52] zanzarino: It WILL work with your REAL account so please be careful
[2012-04-09 04:53:53] zanzarino: New deck building interface is intended: the old one was too messy for flash, kept creating new wonderful bugs
[2012-04-09 04:56:59] zanzarino: If you are trying beta please stay away from pvp, it is going to just desynch
[2012-04-09 04:57:18] zanzarino: But, if you want to try to pvp against someone else in 1.30 please do and let me know if it works
[2012-04-09 04:57:23] Xenocidius: I kind of liked having the art showing though.
[2012-04-09 04:57:57] zanzarino: Xeno: mee too, but it generated so many glitches that I just gave up
[2012-04-09 04:58:50] Vineroz: ‹@zanzarino› the redeem code page's link to tourney section needs update :3
[2012-04-09 04:59:28] Xenocidius: It would be nice if there was an option to either have art or not.
[2012-04-09 04:59:53] zanzarino: Thx Vineroz, the chat button too probably, I'll fix those links right now (and update them online later)
[2012-04-09 04:59:59] Kuroaitou: ‹@Xenocidius› That might increase loading times though
[2012-04-09 05:00:54] Xenocidius: ‹@Kuroaitou› The art has to load anyway, so I don't think it would.
[2012-04-09 05:01:04] Xenocidius: In the deck screen, maybe, which is why it would be optional.
[2012-04-09 05:02:39] zanzarino: I could make it optional but it looked really bad because of the bugs piling up (just graphic bugs)
[2012-04-09 05:03:07] Sevs: is seraph rare?
[2012-04-09 05:04:17] zanzarino: Not rare, but the new cards are not available yet
[2012-04-09 05:04:34] n00b: ‹@zanzarino› Will the new quest line you had talked about be available in beta/trainer before its release?
[2012-04-09 05:04:46] zanzarino: As usual we have to wait for everyone to run on the same version first
[2012-04-09 05:08:28] zanzarino: Quests are going to appear in 1.31
[2012-04-09 05:08:47] zanzarino: This patch is already too big the way it is right now
[2012-04-09 05:10:24] zanzarino: I could try adding the casting cost in the deck building UI, but if only if it does not get glitchy again

[dsc003]

@TheonlyrealBeef:  Thx for the chat notes. Awesome to read Zanz's progress on the new version.

@Zanz:  Thanks for an awesome game and all the hard work you put into it.

[bogtro]

[21:13:27] zanzarino: Lol let me prepare the kong version as well and I'll release 1.3
[21:13:38] zanzarino: Cards will be available tomorrow
[21:19:12] zanzarino: done

^Relevant.

Spoiler for Full chatlog:

[21:11:31] zanzarino: Hi everyone
[21:11:42] bogtro: ZANZZ
[21:11:43] willng3: Hi.
[21:11:47] Shrink: Hey zanz
[21:11:47] BunKeR: hello all mighty zanz
[21:11:48] bogtro: hey zanz
[21:11:51] BunKeR: /bows
[21:11:59] Higurashi: Morning.
[21:12:01] inthisroom: hi
[21:12:08] bogtro: zanz, are you going to join war? xD
[21:12:11] ddevans96: hey Zanz
[21:12:17] zanzarino: I guess that beta has been tested long enough
[21:12:20] bripod: Hi Higs
[21:12:29] bogtro: oh no
[21:12:32] bripod: Hi Zanz!
[21:12:33] BunKeR: O_O
[21:12:38] Dm1321: Zanz, mighty zanz
[21:12:43] Onizuka: nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
[21:12:50] BunKeR: =[ goo dbye nova rush
[21:12:54] Shrink: ‹@zanzarino› Yeah you can just release it already
[21:13:00] plastiqe: hi zanz
[21:13:03] plastiqe: patch time!
[21:13:06] BunKeR: hello shad golem awesomeness
[21:13:07] bogtro: nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
[21:13:14] Mithcairion: Wow, today really is a good day
[21:13:27] BunKeR: *shard
[21:13:27] zanzarino: Lol let me prepare the kong version as well and I'll release 1.3
[21:13:29] bogtro: please don't tell me new shards are coming :3
[21:13:35] bogtro: D:
[21:13:38] zanzarino: Cards will be available tomorrow
[21:13:41] pikachufan2164: And now the Shard collection journey continues yet again
[21:13:46] willng3: Every day with me is a good day
[21:13:58] BunKeR: WHOO HOO TIME TO START GRINDING AGAIN
[21:13:58] Azuria: Every day the same dream.
[21:14:02] Azuria: Allo, Zanz
[21:14:47] Silinda: ‹@zanzarino› how do you know 1.3 will be released tomorrow zanzarino?
[21:14:50] bogtro: Now you're gonna make bronze rewards go to 1 again xD
[21:14:58] Onizuka: Don't do eet D:
[21:15:00] bogtro: ‹@Silinda› not sure if trolling
[21:15:01] Shrink: lulz
[21:15:10] BunKeR: ‹@bogtro› LOL
[21:15:16] Onizuka: My complete collection shall be ruined D:
[21:15:17] Shrink: Yeah zanz how will you know?!
[21:15:26] Mithcairion: *goes with will*
[21:15:34] zanzarino: lol
[21:15:35] Mithcairion: Now all my days will be good, too
[21:16:11] zanzarino: 1.3 will actually come in about 5 mins
[21:16:23] Shrink: Also, almost done with fishy i.imgur.com/XuLYO.gif
[21:16:25] bogtro: D:
[21:16:26] Azuria: *flying side-kicks Willu*
[21:16:27] BunKeR: OH YEAH
[21:16:36] Silinda: and the server will be reset with the new shards and lower farming requirements?
[21:16:42] willng3: *Blocks kick and snuggles Az*
[21:16:48] Silinda: er, in 5 minutes?
[21:17:01] Azuria: *screams*
[21:17:12] inthisroom: does that mean that in 5 minutes, there will be singularities?
[21:17:16] BunKeR: man , bronze league is about to get flooded .
[21:17:19] willng3: SPIDER? Where??
[21:17:23] zanzarino: New shards and new cards will be available soon
[21:17:35] Silinda: lol, I was gonna hit plat with a purity deck myself.
[21:17:40] Azuria: *points at your face*
[21:17:44] Silinda: ‹@zanzarino› Thank you!!!!
[21:17:57] Onizuka: Here comes the age of not getting close to the rare you want in special spins!
[21:17:59] Onizuka: Hooray!
[21:18:24] zanzarino: Yes, if you have an account with a deck in bronze league it would be a good time to make some money
[21:18:41] bogtro: or get a large amount of losses
[21:18:51] Onizuka: More like get destroyed by upped farming.
[21:19:05] BunKeR: ‹@Onizuka› yup lol
[21:19:10] Mithcairion: ‹@Onizuka› +1
[21:19:12] zanzarino: done
[21:19:18] pikachufan2164: Suddenly, negative rewards in Bronze League.
[21:19:26] BunKeR: ‹@zanzarino› w00t
[21:19:28] pikachufan2164: o:
[21:19:29] Kamietsu: Yay, I didn't miss zanz/the update
[21:19:38] bogtro: D:

[Fireleaf]

1.3 is now up, btw.