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Offline Dragoon

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Re: Submit your own ver1.25 AI3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10881.msg148655#msg148655
« Reply #84 on: August 29, 2010, 08:25:38 pm »
The parasites are only intended as cheap damage. I could put in 3-4 death towers, but I'm trying to keep the synergies somewhat simple.
Sure, that's fine.  I'm just noting things as I see them.


Edit: I've also gone back and added the number of different cards in everyone's deck and compared it to the average number of cards in zanz's current decks.

Offline Dragoon

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Re: Submit your own ver1.25 AI3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10881.msg149147#msg149147
« Reply #85 on: August 30, 2010, 09:18:16 pm »
Sorry for the double post.

As I've been going through the decks, I've been commenting on where there seems to be weaknesses in our deck submissions if there are any.  However, we are talking about AI3 here and the decks shouldn't be too hard, right?  So this brings up a question about one of zanz's guideline, "AI3 have to be fun to play against."

So what is a fun deck to play against?  Is it fun to just watch the AI skip turns because he's not drawing the pillars he needs?  Is it fun to whip through these games in 6 turns because there is little opposition?  To me, those aren't fun games.  For me, it's fun to actually have some meaningful exchange between the AI and the player.  Not that he should be uber-tough, but I think he should have some strategy/synergy that he can actually execute more often than not.  In other words, I think the decks should be clean and optimized with as many cards as possible that actually develop and work in tandem to create a cohesive strategy.  I don't want to win because the AI is having an unlucky draw.  I want to win because I executed my strategy better than he did his.  Obviously with 36+ cards and fewer than 6 copies of key cards, the AI decks won't be as good as possible.  But I wonder if we should artificially make them more clunky than they need to be?  To that end, I've been commenting and making suggestions to the deck submissions.

So what do you all think?  What is fun?  And how tough should they be?  How much should we try to optimize these decks to run as smoothly as possible without going overboard?

Edit:
Another rule zanz gives is that "AI3 have to be challenging and have a well developed strategy that the AI can use."  So I guess that's part of the question.  How challenging should the decks be in order to be fun?

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Re: Submit your own ver1.25 AI3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10881.msg149277#msg149277
« Reply #86 on: August 31, 2010, 01:45:37 am »
I'm of the belief that that an AI3 deck should be effective enough to defeat AI2,  so thats what I tested the deck against.

Offline Marvaddin

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Re: Submit your own ver1.25 AI3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10881.msg152084#msg152084
« Reply #87 on: September 04, 2010, 05:45:55 pm »
I think you guys are right, "some meaningful exchange between the AI and the player" is what AI3 are supposed to do, and not have super oriented strategies that can prevent most noobs to win, like having tons of Wings.

Im too lazy now, but I will come later to comment some of those decks, and maybe suggest some changes. Thanks already to Dragoon for arranging them in list format :D

Offline Dragoon

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Re: Submit your own ver1.25 AI3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10881.msg152146#msg152146
« Reply #88 on: September 04, 2010, 07:57:15 pm »
Im too lazy now, but I will come later to comment some of those decks, and maybe suggest some changes. Thanks already to Dragoon for arranging them in list format :D
Actually, all the decks aren't in the list yet.  I'm on page 4 I think.  However, I may go ahead and add them all in and then go back and finish playing + commenting.

Edit: Finished adding all the current decks.  Will try to organize them a little better and then go back and test.

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Re: Submit your own ver1.25 AI3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10881.msg158005#msg158005
« Reply #89 on: September 13, 2010, 10:01:48 pm »
hey Dragoon, if it's not too much trouble, could you put the name of the person who posted the decks with them also?

Offline Dragoon

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Re: Submit your own ver1.25 AI3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10881.msg158028#msg158028
« Reply #90 on: September 13, 2010, 10:54:58 pm »
hey Dragoon, if it's not too much trouble, could you put the name of the person who posted the decks with them also?
They are in there.  Look across on the same line as the number of cards and cost in the picture (in the bottom right corner).  I may have missed a few and left my name by accident, but hopefully they are all accurate.

Btw, all the decks are in there and I'll update with any new decks.  I'm still slowly testing them for quality assurance.  Kind of slow going because I'm busy with some other things at the moment.

Offline majofa

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Re: Submit your own ver1.25 AI3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10881.msg158029#msg158029
« Reply #91 on: September 13, 2010, 11:07:27 pm »
oh i guess i didn't look there lol

btw.. who's testing your decks? I can if you want. :)

Offline Dragoon

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Re: Submit your own ver1.25 AI3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10881.msg158075#msg158075
« Reply #92 on: September 14, 2010, 12:31:43 am »
oh i guess i didn't look there lol

btw.. who's testing your decks? I can if you want. :)
Sure, if you'd like to.  I've been playing around with the idea of coming up with my own full set of AI3 decks.  Probably won't get around to it.  But that means you would have fewer decks to test.   :)

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Re: Submit your own ver1.25 AI3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10881.msg163786#msg163786
« Reply #93 on: September 24, 2010, 12:04:40 am »
Ok, so, now I will try to comment some of the decks in this thread, using dragoon post on page 7. Wont comment all now, some will be later. But lets start.

Ps: please dont be offended if I dislike your deck. Its just my opinion.

Rainbows:

Aetherbow: looks interesting idea. Mind Gates will get cards from opponent. There is some CC, and Steals for PC. Fight him could be fun. I would remove a Mind Gate, and maybe 2 Steal (4 steal looks too much for no real darkness quanta supply), add some creatures with control skills. Possibly less quanta pillar too. I would vote Yes, maybe minor changes.

Deathbow: would need many changes to work. Many cards are expensive for low quanta supply, like RoF, PU and Owls Eye. I would say No.

Dragonbow: AI would probably never put a dragon in play, once they need massive quanta fom QT only. I would say No.

Fatebow: as the notes say, its really bad constructed. I would say No.

Rainbow 1: Like an improved Dragonbow version. Creatures, shields, and short swords. It could be fun, but I would prefer add some spells. I would say No.

Rainbow 2: All creatures that have skills not matching its element... interesting concept. Sadly, looks like very unbalanced. Water, for example, is overused, while Light, for example, is underused. It could be interesting with some balance. For now, I would say No.

Rainbow "Skittles": This is what I call a rainbow interesting enough for AI 3. Changes really not necessary, maybe a little tweak. I would say Yes.

Shortbow: This deck has 2 Owls Eye, that I think an AI 3 should have 1 at max, because its a very powerfull card vs noobs. Other than that, I can see the point of Rustlers using Light to supply FFQ with Life... but the whole combo is poorly constructed. U need Novas to use 2 Rustlers that u need to use... 2 FFQ, in 48 cards. Other than the poorly constructed combo, too many flying weapons (dunno if AI 3 should have this many weapons), Shockwaves, Dragons... Hmmmm, I would say No. If I was trying redesign it, I would start getting rid of Rustlers FFQ combo.

The Bolter: this is not even a little bit fun to play against. Beyond that, AI doesnt have the habit of accumulate quanta before using spells, so, I think it would fail. I would say a big No.

Waterbow: in fact, chances are against this deck. It needs to get creature and proper pendulum to work together. And, most skills are not really useful at start, like Chrysaora and Toadfish. I see this deck as slow and boring. I would say No.

Trios

Air/Death/Aether: another very bad idea. AI 3, I think, is not supposed to stall the game for 20 turns chaining Wings. I would say No (and would say No for any AI3 deck with more than 2 Wings).

Air/Aether/Light: poorly constructed. 2 Hope and 1 Miracle for 2 Fireflies as single light quanta supply (would AI fractal fireflies?)? Removing light cards would be a start. Also, the aether part has little quanta supply... and strong cards for a lv 3. I would say No.

Air/Life/Light 1: we already have a FFQ AI 3 deck. Maybe this one could substitute the other... with changes. 1st, too many Life Pendulum, for 4 Life cards. This one, in fact, could use Rustler, and maybe a Cocka or Dragon. The Air side, I would remove a FFQ (I think a lv 3 should have max 4 of key cards), and maybe an Owl Eye, or some Shockwave (CC to strong for lv 3). I would say Yes, with changes.

Air/Life/Light 2: this is better balanced than #1. I would still remove 2 FFQ, and an weapon, possibly MS. Could use some other Life cards, too. I would say Yes, with a few changes. (Well, Yes to this or #1, not both).

Aether/Time/Entropy: Very poor deck. Why so many Phase Spiders? Pharaoh would produce Scarabs to get Gravity from where? 3 QT? In fact, I think to use Mind Gate in a effective way, more QT needed too. I would say No.

Aether/Time/Gravity: Interesting idea, poor construction. The main combo looks like Dune Scorpion + Momentum. Pharaoh adds to the sinergy. But, why so many aether cards? 4 Dim Shields for a lv 3? I cant agree. I could say yes if it was Time and Gravity, but the way it is, I would say No. Has some pontential, however.

Darkness/Life/Earth: earth just to use minor skills (devourer and Gargoyle)? 2 Nymphs? Wow, were AI 3 supposed to have uber rare cards most of us dont have? I disagree and would say No.

Fire/Earth/Light: not having "6 of this, 6 of that" was one of zanz rules. This deck uses 5 of this, 5 of that, and 4 of that. 4 non quanta cards, 3 elements. Too linear (and boring) strategy. I would say No.

Gravity/Air/Aether: Im sure AI cant play this deck. It wont fractal and play sparks, or use wyrm skill just before playing Chimera. So, yeah, I would say No.

Life/light/Gravity: Cant believe. No, enough said.

Time/Death/Gravity 1: Mummy to Pharaoh deck... interesting. Maybe some tweak (like 1 more Hourglass), but would like to see this one alive. I would say Yes.

Time/Death/Gravity 2: same theme, but very direct strategy for a lv 3. I would prefer #1 instead.

Time/Entropy/Life: Hmmm mutating Deja Vus and Fate Eggs is cool! I would like to see this one. However, maybe its better use Mutation instead of the Elf, so no need to Life Pendulum. Chaos Seed, a Maxwell, and a Pandemonium would also be interesting. I would say Yes, with some changes.

Enough for now, mopre comming later. :D

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Re: Submit your own ver1.25 AI3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10881.msg165141#msg165141
« Reply #94 on: September 26, 2010, 12:41:55 pm »
Code: [Select]
5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f6 5f6 5f6 5f7 5f8 5f8 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i7 5i7 5i7 5i9 5ig 5ig 5ii 5ii 5ii 5ii 5ii 5ii
Creature Control: 2 Rains of Fire, 3 Freezes, Red Nymph (with Nymph's Tear), more freeze from Ice Shield
Permanent Control: 3 Deflagrations
Rare: 1 Fahrenheit

The basic idea is to steam the machines till the enemy is dead. The Nymph Tears are there to give you red nymphs for CC and damage buff. Freeze and burn the enemy while you build up the damage with your machines. Weak to rewind, stasis effects and pillar destruction. What do you think?

I suppose the mark would be water, but if it is fire, there is no problem either. Perhaps switch 1 fire pillar for another water.

Offline Dragoon

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Re: Submit your own ver1.25 AI3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10881.msg165292#msg165292
« Reply #95 on: September 26, 2010, 07:18:26 pm »
What do you think?
The Fire/Water deck idea is good.  However, you only have 8 different cards which is about half the cards zanz has in his current AI3 decks.  I know it dilutes the deck, but you need to add more different cards and possibly drop a Steam Machine or two (but not necessarily, because he does have a few decks with 6 copies of a card in it).

 

blarg: