Elements 1.31

[RavingRabbid]

I like dem new art.
I'll still miss the "smiling fish with legs" and the occasional laugh it gave me.

[RRQJ]

Spoiler for Hidden:

*rephrases* that beats certain kinds of decks. Even 10 out of the 500 is enough (1/50, skipping at 4 secs => 1 every 3 mins 1/2. That's a guaranteeed win vs plat every 6-7 mins, assumin' your deck is slow as znaz)

49 skips would cost you 245 , meaning that using this method at the current rate on Platinum you'd be making 77 every 6-7 minutes if you got an EM and losing at least 84 every 6-7 minutes if you don't.  You'd make more per minute by farming AI3.  You also automatically count yourself out of the possibility of winning an upgraded rare from the special spin.

I don't see why anyone would play this way.  It's certainly not a winning strategy.

Two points to make here :
1) Yes, it means something : not 95%, more like 70% of the leagues are unoriginal. If there was no community behind there'd probably be 95% of unoriginality.

Yet you'd still get exactly the same kudos you get now, plus you'd get a monetary reward.  That's even better, isn't it?

2) Annnd you'd basicly be FORCED not to use some kinds of decks. What if i like submitting ghostmare in arena because it annoys people? (since i do not give a care for  )

Why would you enjoy making other people not enjoy playing the game?  Why would you want to actively drive people away?  If you enjoy annoying people, why aren't you actively campaigning against zanz wanting to remove sources of frustration?

And, if you truly do enjoy annoying people, then I'd say tough.  The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.  If those few people who enjoy actively discouraging others from playing don't get to ruin other people's fun any more and the majority get to enjoy the game more, then I side with those who want to actually enjoy the game.  That's kind of the point of a game, isn't it?

I still see the reverse. Let me devellop.
A) Player who plays can nitpick and basicly choose opponents. Win % increases enormously, so reward increase (base reward x win % = reward)

If you make an interesting deck, people will play it.  If you make a boring, unimaginative deck then, well, whose fault is that?

B) K, reread. So basicly, submit a farm and enjoy free electrum for submitting a losing deck.

A losing deck will drop off the bottom of the leaderboard quickly and won't make much.  You can probably earn more on average from Oracle spins.  Especially now that you automatically win every card spun.

(people won't be playing winning decks, even if they're original. Unless you can make a deck which looks like it won't win but does, which i don't believe is doable.)

Unless people like a challenge, of course.  Or are after rares.  You forget that to get the main reward of playing against the Arena you have to win consecutive rounds.  You come up against a deck in Gold that you think your deck might win against, or might not.  You've already won 2 in a row.  You want a Shard of Wisdom.  What do you do?  Do you really autoquit?

So basicly, reward without risk.

No, reward without frustration.

Again, isn't playing a game supposed to be fun?  If it's not, then don't you think there's a problem?

I think you may have overlooked one part of zanz's post:

I am trying my best to take a second, possibly more inspired look at Elements and I am trying to eliminate sources of frustration, while keeping the game challenging.

Gold/platinum were intended to be comparable/harder than false gods.  In order to have challenges, they will involve aspects that result in frustration.  In a game where in the end it's all about wins/losses, very rarely can you make something challenging and yet not cause some amounts of frustration.

Putting that aside for now, for your solution, I see two scenarios:

The first is that I don't see it doing much of anything.  People in gold/platinum care about arena deck wins because it determines the deck rank, which is what they care about.  The electrum gain is negligible.  Your solution would make it so that the "annoying" decks don't get played, but those decks will likely still have a better ranking because the decks that do get played are likely to be defeated more often than not.

The second scenario (and more likely, imo) would be that the arena would devolve back into something like the former T50.  This assumes that the reason people put up difficult decks is mainly because it gives the feeling of them beating you.  Your solution basically tells people to either put up a mediocre deck or nobody will play it*.  People would probably lose interest in making an effort to build decks given this demand/pressure and eventually there will just be rare farms, non-seriousness, and a return to what zanz was attempting to change in the first place.

*and yes, nobody/very few will play tough decks even if they were "interesting."  Thinking otherwise is being way too optimistic.  Most people want to win, and they will choose to skip any deck, boring or interesting, that they feel they don't have a good chance of winning.  That leaves the decks being played the most as the ones losing most games.

[ElementalDearWatson]

Unless you're suggesting we see the opponent's entire deck before the game AND being able to skip decks, which would be completely imbalanced.

Yes, if you read back, you'll see that that's exactly what I did suggest.  And I don't see how it would be unbalanced.

[ElementalDearWatson]

Gold/platinum were intended to be comparable/harder than false gods.  In order to have challenges, they will involve aspects that result in frustration.  In a game where in the end it's all about wins/losses, very rarely can you make something challenging and yet not cause some amounts of frustration.

There would still be frustration with my suggestion.  Just not mostly frustration and drudging tedium as you encounter the same deck over and over and over and over again.

The first is that I don't see it doing much of anything.  People in gold/platinum care about arena deck wins because it determines the deck rank, which is what they care about.  The electrum gain is negligible.  Your solution would make it so that the "annoying" decks don't get played, but those decks will likely still have a better ranking because the decks that do get played are likely to be defeated more often than not.

So make it that not getting played also moves a deck down in rank.

*and yes, nobody/very few will play tough decks even if they were "interesting."

If that were true then people would just not play Platinum at all, given all the advantages Platinum has over the player.  Even the best anti-Platinum decks have around a 50% chance of winning. 

Most people want to win, and they will choose to skip any deck, boring or interesting, that they feel they don't have a good chance of winning.

This is why you have a penalty for skipping.

I'm not married to my idea, but the truth is that the Arena has a serious problem - it's often not at all fun to play due to seeing the same decks over and over and over again.  It's boring at best, and off-putting at worst.  It can actively make you not want to play Elements at all, simply because doing so is tedious.  As I've said before, I think the primary purpose of a game should be that it's enjoyable to play.  Something should happen to address the fact that it's often not at all enjoyable.  This is my suggestion.  I've yet to hear a convincing argument as to why it isn't better than what we currently have, but I'm open to such arguments, and I'm open to hearing better suggestions.

Anyway, this is probably not the thread for this, so I've created one in the suggestions forum: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,39294.new.html#new

[bripod]

If you can't field a deck that's competitive vs Gold/Plat and that upsets you, then you need to aim lower...
Some of us ENJOY the CHALLENGE of fighting decks rated ABOVE FG's... even when we loose...

Just because your car can't do 200mph is no reason to restrict all other cars in an Indy Race...
I'm sorry, whining like this just brings out the $marta$$ in me...

[ElementalDearWatson]

If you can't field a deck that's competitive vs Gold/Plat and that upsets you, then you need to aim lower...
Some of us ENJOY the CHALLENGE of fighting decks rated ABOVE FG's... even when we loose...

Just because your car can't do 200mph is no reason to restrict all other cars in an Indy Race...
I'm sorry, whining like this just brings out the $marta$$ in me...

I think perhaps you need to re-read everything I've posted, as you're not addressing my arguments but have instead made up some of your own to argue against.   If you're going to be a smartarse, then it's probably wise to ensure that you've actually read and understood what it is you're being a smartarse about.

I have a high winrate in both Gold and Platinum.  That doesn't mean that the tedium of there being almost no variety is any less.  I don't mind losing.  I just want to have fun playing the game, rather than just facing the same decks over and over and over again.  There are 13 decks in AI3.  There are 500 in Gold, and 500 in Platinum.  There is little less variety playing against AI3 than playing against Gold or Platinum.  This is not great from a gameplay perspective.

Anyway, there's now a thread for this.  Let's use it and allow this one to go back to being on topic.

[Newbiecake]

For this upcoming patch, can you improve the AI's way of using Shard of Wisdom, Zanz? Currently, when the AI uses Immortality (creature skill from Turqhoise Nymph/Anubis) on a creature, and the AI has lots of quanta to spare and it's got Shards of Wisdom in its hand, it will wait until the next turn before playing all its Shards of Wisdom on that Immortal creature. It will even go as far as discarding a card in its hand when a Shard of Wisdom can be played on the Immortal creature. I think this is a problem of the AI's playing priority, no? Since the AI calculates if it will have enough quanta to use the rest of its cards the next turn while taking into account the cost of using a creature's Immortality skill, which happens near the end of its turn after playing all the cards it wants to. Maybe the AI can be improved so that it uses Immortality first, then plays the cards in its hand so it won't be confused by Shard of Wisdom?

[Zerker31]

i really love that  -dragon art its awesome

[moomoose]

i love the new art, i dont understand the hate- at all.

as far as limiting frustration- im all for it.  at the moment, my main source of frustration comes from there being a large variety of cards which hinder the opponent from playing their strategy successfully (cc, pc, quanta denial and hand manipulation) and very few cards to protect/mitigate/deter against them.  in the arms race between destruction and prevention, destruction has many more tools in its arsenal.  losing a game due to excessive pc/cc/quanta denial/etc to me feels more like the fun was sucked out of the game than loses otherwise.  more additions akin to sanctuary and cloak may be beneficial, that's my 2

*edit- however, prior to my breaking past the FG barrier the frustration was bridging between t50/ai3 and FGs, I think lessening the power of half bloods is a step in the right direction as far as that is concerned.

[n00b]

As always vrt, amazing work... I don't know what more to say about that

As to the patch, I think that a cost decrease was something that FFQ needed for a while, and it got it . As to Psion, I saw it as an interesting card idea before, and hoped that it would come... thanks to moomoose for creating it and Zanzarino for implementing it

[Naesala]

i love the new art, i dont understand the hate- at all.

I'm not seeing that much hate and I dont think there is so much "hate" as there is preference. requesting minor changes for a better "feel" and/or keeping old art for nostalgia or preference. You can't say anyones opinion on art is better than any other's, its just something to live with. That said those who are flat out hating should keep  there comments constructive.

[AP579]

The only thing I really don't like about the art is the the unupped and upped dragons don't have different art. It bothers me because it should, as it used to, and every dragon should. Otherwise it's awesome and much better than some of the old.