Elements 1.29

[Jenkar]

that is disturbs the balance of the game

Exact aim.

[bucky1andonly]

SoP is better for water than time.  squids + SoP > scorps + SoP
Pharaohs are costly, so your theory of creature generation and using SoP means youre going to be losing a lot.  Why do you think the best time decks do not use pharaohs.  They are too slow.  You can easily play squids and toadfish and SoPs and stomp all over a time deck, and a lot of other decks, using SoP.  Just 2 SoPs and you now have 5/6 squids that can lock down other creatures for 3 turns.  And toadfish that can poison the frozen creatures.  And toadfish already have a decent attack.

Death scorps benefit more anyway.  A death deck with death scorps, recluses and poison would be fast and deadly, and ill go test it out right now.

[Post]

1) I don't agree that squids + SoP would be better than scorpion + SoP, particularly early on. The amount of damage that would add up from an early scorpion is far greater than a squid, with only 1 real counter (Purify). Add in the synergy with Eternity, while still being mono, and I would chose the latter every time. A squid is subjected to CC for the rest of the game, while removing the scorpion after it's first attack does little to counter the damage it has done.

2) Current Time decks do not use Pharaohs. Now, I don't necessarily know if there will be some shift in 1.29, but my point was the added utility in a mono deck. This goes with two shards, not just 1.

3) Since you want to do a direct comparison, all those SoP Squids can simply be hit by Rewind. You also used two shards, where Time is using one.

4) I agree Deathstalkers need attention as well, as I mentioned originally. They don't benefit more, but I could see this being true in certain scenarios.

5) In the end, SoP may be better for water. This isn't my major concern. The greater concern is the game as a whole, and I am simply using Time as the clearest example. At the very least, I think Dune Scorpion and Deathstalker need balance, but I'd much rather see a change to the generic ability considering this is a generic quanta card.

[RRQJ]

I've said this already, but you only need one attack from one dune scorpion. after that they act like forest scorpions.  I don't see how SoP makes them overpowered. Especially considering that you must wait a turn (and hope the opponent doesn't mass cc or otherwise eliminate the threats) and usually needing to play several SoP at once (otherwise almost any shield will block them).  I would much rather use dune scorpion + momentum.  Deathstalkers may benefit more, but there's still the problem of waiting a turn and needing several shards to overcome most shields.

That being said, this is just from what I can tell.  Unfortunately, I don't have the time to test decks.  Go ahead and test such a deck and show that it is overpowered.

Edit:  Actually one more point.  To take advantage of SoP you'll need to have several scorpions on the field before playing the shard.  I would say at least three (otherwise you may as well have a couple of momentums).  I don't know about you, but that seems rather situational.

[BluePriest]

People make too big a deal about DS's. An adrenalined forest scorpion, if left alone will do 2 psn a turn.  It isnt very often, unless facing another time deck, that you will be playing more than 1-2 cards a turn. Therefor a Forest Scorpion will often times do better, and are easier to mass produce. SoPs would help them a great deal as well.

[Post]

I've said this already, but you only need one attack from one dune scorpion. after that they act like forest scorpions.  I don't see how SoP makes them overpowered.

Um, no. They may act like a Forest Scorpion afterwards, but the match itself has been changed. Can a forest scorpion continue increasing poison on the opponent after it has been killed or controlled?

Previously, Time/Death had a few elements that it had to work with to incorporate Dune Scorpions/Deathstalkers. Now, it can use them with any element, including mono, the buff card is cheaper, and can buff multiple targets instead of just 1.

Actually one more point.  To take advantage of SoP you'll need to have several scorpions on the field before playing the shard.  I would say at least three (otherwise you may as well have a couple of momentums).

Ok, it's obvious you aren't giving this the thought it deserves. You don't need several: after the first poison, the rest act like Forest Scorpions, just as you said earlier. The first attack is the key. The decks I have played in Beta, I have gotten a buffed Dune scorpion out on the first or second turn almost every time. Waiting is not a smart thing to do. Later in the match, however, you can then further buff them, and buff multiple creatures.

That being said, this is just from what I can tell.  Unfortunately, I don't have the time to test decks.  Go ahead and test such a deck and show that it is overpowered.

As you can see, I have been. Good to know that you're willing to critique my research, command me to test, but not willing to do any of it yourself.

People make too big a deal about DS's. An adrenalined forest scorpion, if left alone will do 2 psn a turn.  It isnt very often, unless facing another time deck, that you will be playing more than 1-2 cards a turn.

Unless you have the majority of your opening draw in your hand, which these changes increase the likelihood of. Edit: Also, you are ignoring the synergy with Eternity, which as I mentioned earlier is yet another mono-deck option.

Therefor a Forest Scorpion will often times do better, and are easier to mass produce. SoPs would help them a great deal as well.

Another example of my concern about the impact that a generic quanta mass buff will have on the current card designs, but not as stark or imbalanced.

[gumbeh]

Blessing, Chaos Power, and Momentum will boost any scorpion through most shields. SoaP will only do that for upgraded forest scorps

[Post]

Just a very simple deck example:

by Post

Hover over cards for details, click for permalink

Deck import code : [Select]

6rv 6rv 6rv 6rv 6rv 7n2 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q3 7q8 7q8 7q8 7qd 7qd 7qd 7qd 7qd 7qd 8ps

And a sample of the common result:

(http://www.flickr.com/photos/35359634@N03/6202112304)

[OldTrees]

@Post
Using your rough deck outline I play tested it against a Momentum variant (-5 SoP, +5 Momentum, Mark of Gravity instead of Time)

SoP + Dune Scorpion inflicts neurotoxin turn 2 for 3 + 1 (4 towers)
Momentum + Dune Scorpion (using Mark of Gravity) inflicts neurotoxin turn 2 for 3 + 1 (2 towers + 1  mark)

Momentum Dune Scorpions is more likely to inflict neurotoxin on turn 2 because it requires only 2 towers rather than 4. It does come with side effects (+1hp, ignore shields, -1 per turn, effects of Momentum/SoP ing the 2nd scorpion)

[RRQJ]

I've said this already, but you only need one attack from one dune scorpion. after that they act like forest scorpions.  I don't see how SoP makes them overpowered.

Um, no. They may act like a Forest Scorpion afterwards, but the match itself has been changed. Can a forest scorpion continue increasing poison on the opponent after it has been killed or controlled?

Previously, Time/Death had a few elements that it had to work with to incorporate Dune Scorpions/Deathstalkers. Now, it can use them with any element, including mono, the buff card is cheaper, and can buff multiple targets instead of just 1.

Actually one more point.  To take advantage of SoP you'll need to have several scorpions on the field before playing the shard.  I would say at least three (otherwise you may as well have a couple of momentums).

Ok, it's obvious you aren't giving this the thought it deserves. You don't need several: after the first poison, the rest act like Forest Scorpions, just as you said earlier. The first attack is the key. The decks I have played in Beta, I have gotten a buffed Dune scorpion out on the first or second turn almost every time. Waiting is not a smart thing to do. Later in the match, however, you can then further buff them, and buff multiple creatures.

That being said, this is just from what I can tell.  Unfortunately, I don't have the time to test decks.  Go ahead and test such a deck and show that it is overpowered.

As you can see, I have been. Good to know that you're willing to critique my research, command me to test, but not willing to do any of it yourself.

Your argument is illogical.  Everthing you just said can be applied to momentum, with better and more consistent results.  If fact, you're basically proving my point, that dune scorpion already works with existing cards and that SoP brings nothing new, and thus, does not overpower dune scorpion.

[moomoose]

my only concern is if/when someone comes up with a solid deck incorporating both and scorps with SoP- that sounds terrifying if they could get it to work consistently.

[RRQJ]

Even if that happens I don't see it being significantly more powerful than some of the current poison decks.  If it somehow becomes terrifying, then at least people will start using purify more.