Elements the Game Forum - Free Online Fantasy Card Game

News and Announcements => Patch Notes and Development News => Topic started by: zanzarino on September 19, 2011, 06:07:36 am

Title: Elements 1.29
Post by: zanzarino on September 19, 2011, 06:07:36 am
Ver. 1.29 is now live. The new shards are available via donation and in the arena

New Cards:
Shard of Sacrifice
Shard of Void
Shard of Patience
Shard of Serendipity

New features:
Permanent shards now stack just like pillars
Shards are still neutral cards but each shard is attuned to a matching element and has better stats/outcomes if used with it
Shards works even as non-upgraded cards

Balance:
Shard of gratitude heals 3 (5 if  :life mark) both for upped and unupped(cost 5)
Shard of Divinity adds 16 (24 if  :light mark) both for upped and unupped(cost 5)
Shard of readiness lets  :time creatures use their skill immediately and twice
Explosion cost increased to 3/2
Ash stats decreased to 0/5
Shroedinger cat skill cost reduced to 1 :entropy
Immolation  :fire gain reduced to 6(8upped)
Quanta pool capped at 75 quanta per element
Catapults get a 50% bonus for frozen targets
Flooding now effects all but the first 5 creatures

User Interface:
New, smoother card backgrounds for entropy, death, earth, life and darkness
Added graphic effects for Silence, Sanctuary and Shard of Sacrifice
Added bands behind the name of rare cards: 2 bands=rare, 3 bands=legendary
(http://www.elementsthegame.com/bkgcard/entropy.jpg)(http://www.elementsthegame.com/bkgcard/death.jpg)(http://www.elementsthegame.com/bkgcard/earth.jpg)(http://www.elementsthegame.com/bkgcard/life.jpg)(http://www.elementsthegame.com/bkgcard/darkness.jpg)

AI:
Ai can now use adrenaline and mitosis on multiple targets


1.291:
Deja Vu does not create triplets anymore when used with Shard of Readiness
Fixed a few bugs caused by reaching level 80
Elite Otyugh art updated

1.292:
Arena rating system:
After losing to an arena deck the player can rate the winning deck with "thumb up" or "thumb down".
Rating a deck rewards the player with 5 coins
Rating a deck as "thumb up" doubles the rating gained by that deck
The cost for starting an arena game is now raised to 20 (nothing really changed since you can get the extra cost back rating decks)

Pvp1 cost increase to 30. Money reward greatly increased
Pvp2 cost increase to 50. Money reward greatly increased

Shard of Sacrifice HP cost increased to (48/40)

The AI does not use ignite/adrenaline/bolts and might hold cards in hand when the opponent uses Shard of Sacrifice
The AI uses burrow when the opponent uses Shard of sacrifice

Fixed a graphic error showing max HP in front of the cards
Winning/Losing a game now instantly happens when a player has 0 HP (healing with AM should not revive a player anymore, to be tested)

1.293:
Merged details page with the "you lost" screen


Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 19, 2011, 06:10:00 am
Quote
Shard of Gratitude heals for 4 (5 with life mark) if upgraded
Awesome.

Quote
User Interface:
New, smoother card backgrounds for entropy, death, earth, life and darkness
Added graphic effects for Silence, Sanctuary and Shard of Sacrifice
Added bands behind the name of rare cards: 2 bands=rare, 3 bands=legendary
Awesome.

Quote
*everything else*
Awesome.

Brilliant work as always, zanz. Keep it up. :)


New shard images:

(http://i.imgur.com/X6HGt.png)(http://i.imgur.com/TWUA6.png)(http://i.imgur.com/iSRsN.png)(http://i.imgur.com/nQEEu.png)(http://i.imgur.com/6warG.png)(http://i.imgur.com/UHkbR.png)(http://i.imgur.com/llHjm.png)(http://i.imgur.com/9crTO.png)(http://i.imgur.com/TcE4h.png)(http://i.imgur.com/oEi9N.png)(http://i.imgur.com/dcqCo.png)(http://i.imgur.com/8KWU2.png)(http://i.imgur.com/8kDL7.png)(http://i.imgur.com/zBHvU.png)

Other new card images:

(http://i.imgur.com/q5Wmd.png)(http://i.imgur.com/GApo8.png)(http://i.imgur.com/Uq61m.png)(http://i.imgur.com/xi3Jg.png)(http://i.imgur.com/nmmKH.png)(http://i.imgur.com/a16kD.png)(http://i.imgur.com/ZULHs.png)(http://i.imgur.com/dKZAS.png)

New cards:

(http://i.imgur.com/ZcpPX.png)(http://i.imgur.com/AkS8j.png)(http://i.imgur.com/hT0MJ.png)(http://i.imgur.com/BjQeN.png)(http://i.imgur.com/TcE4h.png)(http://i.imgur.com/oEi9N.png)(http://i.imgur.com/8kDL7.png)(http://i.imgur.com/zBHvU.png)

Card changes:

(http://i.imgur.com/UvvnD.png)(http://i.imgur.com/24qoA.png)(http://i.imgur.com/N2GLU.png)(http://i.imgur.com/bLeCW.png)(http://i.imgur.com/mXtql.png)(http://i.imgur.com/clU2Q.png)(http://i.imgur.com/gGQs2.png)(http://i.imgur.com/AAE3F.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/3rJh6.png)(http://i.imgur.com/l1ccj.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/XTF9o.png)(http://i.imgur.com/X2ZeA.png)(http://i.imgur.com/2B5JV.png)(http://i.imgur.com/ph03M.png)(http://i.imgur.com/HDCKV.png)(http://i.imgur.com/5J8fk.png)(http://i.imgur.com/jxfA1.png)(http://i.imgur.com/NWuOu.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0ZzaP.png)(http://i.imgur.com/mf4Mj.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/BwRE6.png)(http://i.imgur.com/gedBn.png)(http://i.imgur.com/nTIKJ.png)(http://i.imgur.com/k3Uzy.png)(http://i.imgur.com/Ym46h.png)(http://i.imgur.com/ijjAu.png)(http://i.imgur.com/laMs8.png)(http://i.imgur.com/gQEHF.png)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: willng3 on September 19, 2011, 06:23:09 am
Gonna say this right off, not a fan of the text color.

SoS is pretty imbalanced, but I suspect that was done on purpose as usual.

Everything else is amazing; really looking forward to seeing what the rest of the Shards will do.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Snopel on September 19, 2011, 06:42:30 am
I'm sorry but... that text colour, I don't like. Maybe just a mark on the lower right of the textbox will do.
Everything else is fantastic! Thanks Zanz.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 19, 2011, 06:42:43 am
Shard of Divinity unupped has a permanent icon but is actually a spell. Error, I'm presuming?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on September 19, 2011, 06:44:10 am
Well, I'm excited to see some new cards in the works!  I haven't been around long enough to see new cards, so this will be great!  I think the sacrifice and readiness shards are too powerful, but the gratitude and divinity ones look balanced to me.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: willng3 on September 19, 2011, 06:50:51 am
Lmao the new SoR really makes a Time Rush possible.  Too much IMO.  Here's what I pulled off first turn just now:
(http://i.imgur.com/KOt0w.png)

64 damage total on turn 3 after I drew another Deja Vu + SoR.  I have a strange suspicion something's gonna get nerfed here :D
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Sevs on September 19, 2011, 06:52:28 am
I actually really like the text color. also because it is my favorite color
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Kuroaitou on September 19, 2011, 06:59:00 am
*head explodes*

Not so sure about the Adrenaline boost, but still loving the fact that Readiness can give some of Time's creatures (looks at Deja Vu, Pharaoh (!) and Scarab) some nice hitting power.

<3 Zanz! ^_^
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 19, 2011, 07:00:54 am
by Xenocidius
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 6rk 6rk 6rq 6rq 6rq 6rq 6rq 6rq 74a 74a 74a 74a 74a 74a 7q1 7q1 7q1 7q1 7q1 7q1 7qb 7qb 7qb 7qb 8ps


Hmm ...

Also the deck willing3 used.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 19, 2011, 07:09:07 am
I don't like text color. It doesn't really fit with the rest of the looks in the game. What about a different color effect, like a different border? I think we could make an Art competition for this and see what we can come up with. I also link to this competition here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20788.0.html) for something similar that might be useful. Really, I'd rather have a slight background change (like, different shading or something), a small icon (although it's quite common in CCGs), or even a different font for the text (some rare or exotic fonts, maybe? Italicized text? Something).



Also, a comment on the cards: Shard of Sacrifice is pretty broken. I never liked the concept, and still don't like it now, it's far too powerful. I agree on the "cost" reduction because setting your hp to 1 was suicidal and put too much emphasis on having an Explosion ready. However, the introduction of such a card will put even MORE emphasis on Permanent Control, something many people (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30455.0.html) deem broken already (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30797.msg418179#msg418179) (links are to some discussions that went on in the forums recently on the subject or on related issues).

Shard of Readiness is probably a bit too strong coupled with Deja-Vu: mono Adrena-Vus or even duo Momentumed Adrena-Vus is REALLY fast. Like, less than 5 turns to win fast (as fast as an Immolation rush). Also works very well unupped on Ghost of the Past (faster Nightmere / GotP deck? It's already a dominating concept in the Arena...).

SoG nerf was long needed and welcome (although I'd still prefer one less point of "general" healing) and Shard of Divinity is as "meh" as always: annoying but not really useful. I suppose having the possibility to use it unupped enables a stronger Light Immortal deck (SoD + multiple Miracles + Sanctuaries + a good shield), but the Earth version with StoneSkin also has access to Blessed Wardens, Basilisk Blood and most importantly Diamond Shield and Protect Artifact...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Snopel on September 19, 2011, 07:12:20 am
I see the Nymphs text had a colour change too. Wow.
Are there ever going to be anymore Legendary cards?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 19, 2011, 07:13:38 am
However, the introduction of such a card will put even MORE emphasis on Permanent Control
Actually, it's not a permanent. It's a spell, and puts a status effect on you similar to Silence.

I see the Nymphs text had a colour change too. Wow.
Are there ever going to be anymore Legendary cards?
Mark cards (even the normal Mark) also have the colour change.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Snopel on September 19, 2011, 07:16:12 am
However, the introduction of such a card will put even MORE emphasis on Permanent Control
Actually, it's not a permanent. It's a spell, and puts a status effect on you similar to Silence.

I see the Nymphs text had a colour change too. Wow.
Are there ever going to be anymore Legendary cards?
Mark cards (even the normal Mark) also have the colour change.
Oh... Right... Silly me. =P
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: pikachufan2164 on September 19, 2011, 07:28:51 am
Also, a comment on the cards: Shard of Sacrifice is pretty broken. I never liked the concept, and still don't like it now, it's far too powerful. I agree on the "cost" reduction because setting your hp to 1 was suicidal and put too much emphasis on having an Explosion ready. However, the introduction of such a card will put even MORE emphasis on Permanent Control, something many people (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30455.0.html) deem broken already (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30797.msg418179#msg418179) (links are to some discussions that went on in the forums recently on the subject or on related issues).
SoS is currently attached to the player like Purify counters, and they actually stack on top of each other (no need to chain; each one played gives +2 to the SoS turn counter). Not even permanent control will work now.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Snopel on September 19, 2011, 07:35:47 am
Also, a comment on the cards: Shard of Sacrifice is pretty broken. I never liked the concept, and still don't like it now, it's far too powerful. I agree on the "cost" reduction because setting your hp to 1 was suicidal and put too much emphasis on having an Explosion ready. However, the introduction of such a card will put even MORE emphasis on Permanent Control, something many people (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30455.0.html) deem broken already (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30797.msg418179#msg418179) (links are to some discussions that went on in the forums recently on the subject or on related issues).
SoS is currently attached to the player like Purify counters, and they actually stack on top of each other (no need to chain; each one played gives +2 to the SoS turn counter). Not even permanent control will work now.
Yes I saw that. And for that reason, I think it's almost OP.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Jaymanfu on September 19, 2011, 07:37:19 am
Yes I saw that. And for that reason, I think it's almost OP.
No not almost, it is... the fact that you can't use PC to stop it means there really isn't a counter to it besides not doing dmg at all
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 19, 2011, 08:03:45 am
Just noticed that SoG's skill has been changed from Regenerate to Gratitude. Also, the stacks of SoGs each heal together (for example, a stack of two heals 8/10 HP).
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 19, 2011, 08:06:29 am
I'm using a SoS/Sundial Poison stall to farm False Gods. So far I have 100% win rate, even if you factor in the presence of SoS in THEIR deck - which is definitely annoying. I also have an about 90% EM rate. If that is not broken, I can't see what it is.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Sevs on September 19, 2011, 08:07:48 am
This is going to sound weird but what is life and time switched their shards, time gets some sort of healing, and life could get SoR (mitosis buff) with the extra ability of first turn activation.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 19, 2011, 08:21:36 am
This is going to sound weird but what is life and time switched their shards, time gets some sort of healing, and life could get SoR (mitosis buff) with the extra ability of first turn activation.
Might as well change Time's shard to 10 men's Shard of Restoration (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,29298.0.html). Which would be a very good idea, actually.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ~Napalm on September 19, 2011, 08:38:06 am
No more SoG? I like it! Though if we do keep SoG as Life. I believe it needs some sort of non healing ability. Life has a ton of healing anyway. What on earth does it want more for? What if having an SoG in play meant only players with Life Marks could heal, period? Would that be OP?

Heck. You could even make it into a spell cast on a creature, giving it the ability Regenerate and some other buff.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Sevs on September 19, 2011, 08:38:57 am
This is going to sound weird but what is life and time switched their shards, time gets some sort of healing, and life could get SoR (mitosis buff) with the extra ability of first turn activation.
Might as well change Time's shard to 10 men's Shard of Restoration (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,29298.0.html). Which would be a very good idea, actually.
exactly
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: YawnChainHow on September 19, 2011, 08:41:54 am
I myself am fine with the text colors on unupped cards, but on upped cards the glow seems a bit strong.

Loving everything else (however unbalanced).

Does anyone know if the Foil Chimera has colored text?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 19, 2011, 08:49:53 am
The Foil Chimera does not have coloured text.

(http://i.imgur.com/9tIO6.png)

Also: maybe rare cards should have a text colour based on their element? For example, Jade Staff would keep the new green text, but Fahrenheit would have red text, etc.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rember on September 19, 2011, 09:01:57 am
I'm using a SoS/Sundial Poison stall to farm False Gods. So far I have 100% win rate, even if you factor in the presence of SoS in THEIR deck - which is definitely annoying. I also have an about 90% EM rate. If that is not broken, I can't see what it is.
Haha, good times.

by Rember
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
6rt 6rt 6rt 6rt 6rt 6rt 710 710 710 710 710 710 710 710 710 718 718 718 718 718 718 71a 71a 71a 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 8pq


For anyone interested. It's funny how the only chance they have is to draw their own SoS.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on September 19, 2011, 09:34:37 am
Sundial currently slows down both players' win conditions by 1 turn.
Dimensional Shield slows down the opponent's win condition by 3 turns.
Each turn of SoS slows down the opponent's win condition by about 2 turns. At a 2 turn duration, SoS slows the opponent down by 4 turns.

Conclusion: SoS is now more powerful than Dimensional Shield and costs about the same as Sundial.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 19, 2011, 09:52:22 am
Sundial currently slows down both players' win conditions by 1 turn.
Dimensional Shield slows down the opponent's win condition by 3 turns.
Each turn of SoS slows down the opponent's win condition by about 2 turns. At a 2 turn duration, SoS slows the opponent down by 4 turns.

Conclusion: SoS is now more powerful than Dimensional Shield and costs about the same as Sundial.
Wrong. SoS is an unavoidable spell effect, while both Sundial and Dims are removable. Dims are also weak to momentum.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 19, 2011, 09:54:29 am
I'd suggest having SoS's effect only last for 1 turn, have an actual cost, and remove more HP.

Conclusion: SoS is now more powerful than Dimensional Shield and costs about the same as Sundial.
Umm ... actually, it costs more (HP + all non-death quanta). Plus, Sundial has the Hasten ability.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on September 19, 2011, 09:58:44 am
I'd suggest having SoS's effect only last for 1 turn, have an actual cost, and remove more HP.

Conclusion: SoS is now more powerful than Dimensional Shield and costs about the same as Sundial.
Umm ... actually, it costs more (HP + all non-death quanta). Plus, Sundial has the Hasten ability.
1 :time is ~= to the hp and dipped quanta (0-2).
I was ignoring the hasten ability because it was paid for separately and acts as an optional addition.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 19, 2011, 10:02:36 am
I'd say 1 :time is definitely not equal to all non- :death plus HP. Using the classic example of Holy Light, it seems 1 :light = 10 HP. SoS drains 12. Just my opinion though.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Snopel on September 19, 2011, 10:15:22 am
If there were to be any improvement, I'd say inflict 50 or something HP to yourself. It pretty much evens out.
That or make it last for one turn.
I can imagine the abuse in PVP with this. Ugh.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on September 19, 2011, 10:16:53 am
I'd say 1 :time is definitely not equal to all non- :death plus HP. Using the classic example of Holy Light, it seems 1 :light = 10 HP. SoS drains 12. Just my opinion though.
I assumed standard deck building procedures would also occur (minimizing costs and maximizing benefits). Thus draining X hp < healing X hp.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: gumbeh on September 19, 2011, 10:20:03 am
Can a more neutral glow be used? Maybe just white and black... if a 3rd is needed, the "blue-gray" of Microsoft excel is pretty neutral and doesn't directly match the color used by air, water, or death. Off-white can work, too.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: astraldragoon on September 19, 2011, 11:00:22 am

talking about the borders, some cards have upped borders more sexy than others, just check time and earth: they close the same when upped!
check darkness too, you see how upped its really nice
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: 10 men on September 19, 2011, 11:38:37 am
I don't like this SoR either, but I'd like to make one point:
Nova
Elite Deja Vu
Unstoppable
Shard of Readiness
If you think the overpowered card in this list is SoR, you probably also think that Photon is the overpowered part of the Photon - Immolation - Phoenix start... ;)
But yeah I agree with Mormegil that a much more useful and fitting shard for Time would be Shard of Restoration (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,29298.0.html).
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Scaredgirl on September 19, 2011, 11:41:08 am
I have the small suggestion regarding the title colors.


BEFORE
(http://i.imgur.com/BwRE6.png)(http://i.imgur.com/gedBn.png)

AFTER
(http://i.imgur.com/K684k.png)
white and black text with #00ff00 outer glow, blend modes darken and lighten


This way the "old" system of white text for unupped and text black for upped still exists, but both have the glow effect. It's a very small change and I don't think the current title is bad in any way, but I do think this would be an improvement. Then again it's probably subjective.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Antagon on September 19, 2011, 11:53:54 am
i like the ideas, but sos is far too powerful for a spell, make it permanent and its ok, and sor is just broken (and bad for life, cause with the new sor time would be the fastest rush deck AND has cc with reverse time (even slows opponent down), even with the cost of +2 it would be very, very strong. and im not sure, if unupgraded heal for every element is a good idea, even if it just 3 per turn.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: pikachufan2164 on September 19, 2011, 11:58:45 am
Suddenly, Firestalls everywhere D:

by pikachufan2164
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4t7 4t7 4t7 4t7 4t7 4t7 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f5 5f5 5f7 5f7 5fb 5fb 5fb 5fb 5fb 5fb 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 8po
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on September 19, 2011, 12:00:36 pm
Since SoG would now stack, I don't think it has truly been nerfed, arena decks will enjoy the ridicule healing, hmm...
500 Healing per turn,
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd226762/healing.png)
problem? (http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd226200/troll.png)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Snopel on September 19, 2011, 12:13:03 pm
Here's my idea. I don't know if you'll agree, but I think it'll make things far more simple.
How about we have a mark on the bottom right corner of the card?
(http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/4720/ieaasfaffeweaff.png)I know it's not an "awesome" job, but I'm sure you can think of better symbols.

Just thought I'd chuck my idea in.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ScaredGuy on September 19, 2011, 12:37:11 pm
I like the way the green text looks on the 'other' background, but I don't think it looks that good on the elemental cards. As for the new shard effects, I think SoG and SoD are fine, but SoR could cost a couple more upped. SoS just seems overpowered to me, it should deal more damage.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: nilsieboy on September 19, 2011, 01:12:24 pm
i love the update, but i think the SoR is really OP (and kinda weird) with adrealine, as it doesn't really fit and makes some OP combos.
also don't like the new text colours, hope they will stay normal.
looking forward to the new shards :)!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ScaredGuy on September 19, 2011, 02:22:19 pm
i love the update, but i think the SoR is really OP (and kinda weird) with adrealine, as it doesn't really fit and makes some OP combos.
also don't like the new text colours, hope they will stay normal.
looking forward to the new shards :)!
I think attacking multiple times really fits the theme of  :time, actually. I agree that it makes some OP combos though.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: majofa on September 19, 2011, 02:38:23 pm
Why not buff Trident|Poseidon (Not EQ) by allowing it to also target Shard stacks?

Healing for 15 HP a turn??.... SMASH!!!.... No, you're not!  :))
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rosutosefi on September 19, 2011, 03:37:41 pm
maybe let time creatures attack twice with SoR, to make it good with anubis but not too powerful on dejavu's and scarabs
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Bhlewos on September 19, 2011, 03:55:34 pm
Time to play a Silence/Sanc/SoS deck in Trainer just to see the pretty new effects. =D
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Holokausti on September 19, 2011, 04:00:32 pm
Ugh, the green borders don't fit most of the elements at all. As someone suggested, would look better if the color was based on the element itself.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Puppenmaedchen on September 19, 2011, 04:06:54 pm
Time to play a Silence/Sanc/SoS deck in Trainer just to see the pretty new effects. =D
Silence and sanc are only visible when effective on player side, so you need to give your opponent the silences to see it.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Scaredgirl on September 19, 2011, 04:41:42 pm
Ugh, the green borders don't fit most of the elements at all. As someone suggested, would look better if the color was based on the element itself.
This would probably get very confusing very fast because there are more than one level of rarity.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Djhopper :) on September 19, 2011, 05:06:42 pm
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd226825/SoSOP.png)
SoS is sooo OP. I got ridiculous amounts of damage out, then poof, all gone and they're back on 100hp (better than miracle), for little cost :( and with two turns of safe-ness (better than sundial and indestructable)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Dm on September 19, 2011, 05:09:31 pm
The awesomeness is Over Nine Thousand.


Bad news for me is that I actully just upgraded 3 more SoG's like, yesterday. XD
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on September 19, 2011, 06:39:31 pm
I too am not a fan of the new text colors. Just makes it seem like its following all rest of card games in existence. rares are shiny etc. in this case text color.
I did not see any silence special effects happen?
I did like sanctuary's little picture where your hand is. that was nice touch i think
The changes in the shards im iffy on. Everyone uses SOG for healing in mass amounts.. 5 or 6 of them and you heal a lot. Sanctuary was near to better and now it is much better i think with the SOG nerfing.. SOG works as "NORMAL" if you use :Life.  Sanctuary heals same as SOG now and also protects ur quanta pool AND your hand. SOG is no obsolete.

Sanctuary will be much better for my deck now in multiples instead of just 1 or 2 and ill take out all the SOG's. The SOS shard though I think is little too strong. take 12 damage and you could reverse the whole game around in 1 of your opponents turns. The only counter would be if they played a sundial to prevent attacks to keep your health at bay. also if you use sanc or miracle or any kinda of healing with SOS you shoot yourself in the foot. It's more or less 1 or the other not both. use miracle or use SOS .. depends on whose turn you want to use it on..
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: willng3 on September 19, 2011, 06:50:12 pm
I did not see any silence special effects happen?
I don't believe you can see the effects if used on the opponent.  But if used on the player, you'll see a nice background image in your hand area.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on September 19, 2011, 06:57:50 pm
I did not see any silence special effects happen?
I don't believe you can see the effects if used on the opponent.  But if used on the player, you'll see a nice background image in your hand area.
ah, well ok then. i was the one who played the silence. ty for clarification :)

rest of my comment still stands though :\
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: tyranim on September 19, 2011, 07:04:16 pm
the adrenaline effect of shard of rediness isnt workin on my ulitharids (i had time quanta and mark of time, so blah)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: willng3 on September 19, 2011, 07:05:12 pm
the adrenaline effect of shard of rediness isnt workin on my ulitharids (i had time quanta and mark of time, so blah)
It only adds the Adrenaline effect to :time creatures.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on September 19, 2011, 07:05:41 pm
the adrenaline effect of shard of rediness isnt workin on my ulitharids (i had time quanta and mark of time, so blah)
ulitharid is not a :time creature? only gives it to :time


edit: ninja'd by willng3 :O
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: tyranim on September 19, 2011, 07:09:18 pm
shard of divinity says it adds 22 in the animation, but it really only adds 20
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: PuppyChow on September 19, 2011, 07:14:03 pm
This is awesome.

This is really awesome.

I don't even care about the SoG nerf, because this is awesome.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: willng3 on September 19, 2011, 07:20:39 pm
shard of divinity says it adds 22 in the animation, but it really only adds 20
I can't seem to replicate this.

Can you provide evidence using a Screenshot?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Aves on September 19, 2011, 07:22:37 pm
Poseidon isn't highlighted. Also not liking the text color. Just seems a bit off. Besides that, it looks great!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on September 19, 2011, 07:25:42 pm
shard of divinity says it adds 22 in the animation, but it really only adds 20
I can't seem to replicate this.

Can you provide evidence using a Screenshot?
i just tried this as well and it works just fine.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: VegeForsaken on September 19, 2011, 07:35:15 pm
I Think the Text color doesnt fit the game lookin style, and it doesnt feel that good either. If ya wanna underline card rarity i think Wizards' idea of colorin the simbol (wich in your game make distinction between spell permanents etc) works better.

Also, tbh i'd see more excitin the addition of some more cards, its been a while we playn with the same.

Nevertheless, thank a lot for keepin your work up, I'll appreciate anyway :)

Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Plantifant on September 19, 2011, 07:44:42 pm
I think SoS is a bit overpowered, If you have a protect artifact + SoS you almost win a 100%.
I like the rest, good job!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on September 19, 2011, 07:46:31 pm
I think SoS is a bit overpowered, If you have a protect artifact + SoS you almost win a 100%.
I like the rest, good job!
that makes no sense.. protect artifact has nothing to do with SOS . it isnt a permanent. it puts an effect over your healthbar and thats it. The only thing i could think of to negate it is if you ran 6 anti matters and made all ur creatures heal instead to kill them. or use sundials to prevent from healing them.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on September 19, 2011, 07:56:55 pm
Also just noticed a small visual bug i guess you could call it. I am playing against octane and he used unstable gas. i was above 80 HP (88) and when he used unstable gas my hp went to 108.. beyond its max.. then it went back to 100. I know its probably not a huge deal but figured mention it anyway.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Sevs on September 19, 2011, 07:58:42 pm
I think SoS is a bit overpowered, If you have a protect artifact + SoS you almost win a 100%.
I like the rest, good job!
that makes no sense.. protect artifact has nothing to do with SOS . it isnt a permanent. it puts an effect over your healthbar and thats it. The only thing i could think of to negate it is if you ran 6 anti matters and made all ur creatures heal instead to kill them. or use sundials to prevent from healing them.
but in the time it would take you to draw and play those antimatters, SoS will be gone and you now have antimattered creatures healing your opponent
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on September 19, 2011, 08:06:34 pm
I think SoS is a bit overpowered, If you have a protect artifact + SoS you almost win a 100%.
I like the rest, good job!
that makes no sense.. protect artifact has nothing to do with SOS . it isnt a permanent. it puts an effect over your healthbar and thats it. The only thing i could think of to negate it is if you ran 6 anti matters and made all ur creatures heal instead to kill them. or use sundials to prevent from healing them.

exactly.. so really only sundial can do any good.. plus draw power.
but in the time it would take you to draw and play those antimatters, SoS will be gone and you now have antimattered creatures healing your opponent
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on September 19, 2011, 08:14:26 pm
http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd226860/elementsbetass.png
just faced octane and won due to the new shard.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: TheForbiddenOracle on September 19, 2011, 08:25:38 pm
The new shard makes mono :death a possible FG grinder now :).
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on September 19, 2011, 08:31:55 pm
The new shard makes mono :death a possible FG grinder now :).
yes and no. i put up a long fight vs obliterator and he still beat me. pulverizer did it..  octane i got lucky. dark matter rapes still. so yes it will make others much easier but they also use the shard so evens out a little.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Essence on September 19, 2011, 08:35:13 pm
SoS as is, using the Sundial/Poison deck listed earlier.  Zero practice and just jumping right in:

Game 1: Jezebel.  EM. 18 turns.
Game 2: Octane. EM. 15 turns.
Game 3: Destiny. EM. 17 turns. 
Game 4: Jezebel again. EM. 19 turns.
Game 5: Fire Queen. Loss (deckout/Feral Bond)
Game 6: Dark Matter. EM. 20 turns.
Game 7: Scorpio. EM. 16 turns.
Game 8: Serket.  EM. 17 turns/
Game 9: Elidnis.  EM (barely!) 23 turns. (Feral Bond again)
Game 10: Graviton. EM. 16 turns.


9/10 EMs.  I see losses from Fire Queen, Ferox, Miracle, and sometimes Morte, Elidnis, Paradox and Rainbow.

This is much worse than the Dive/old-SoR deck.  Obviously the correct solution is to give us back the old SoR.


Also, I hated the text colors at first, but I've gotten used to it. :)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RRQJ on September 19, 2011, 08:53:49 pm
I don't understand why SoS doesn't have a casting cost.  The "drain non-death quanta" isn't a valid argument.  For one, that "cost" is nothing in a mono-death, and two, why can't something like miracle have a zero cost then?  It drains all light quanta anyway.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: majofa on September 19, 2011, 09:01:23 pm
I don't understand why SoS doesn't have a casting cost.  The "drain non-death quanta" isn't a valid argument.  For one, that "cost" is nothing in a mono-death, and two, why can't something like miracle have a zero cost then?  It drains all light quanta anyway.
Because you could use it in a deck that doesn't even use :light quanta. Plus the 15 (or 12) cost makes it hard to play.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on September 19, 2011, 09:08:29 pm
Yes I saw that. And for that reason, I think it's almost OP.
No not almost, it is... the fact that you can't use PC to stop it means there really isn't a counter to it besides not doing dmg at all
Silence =D!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RRQJ on September 19, 2011, 09:19:00 pm
I don't understand why SoS doesn't have a casting cost.  The "drain non-death quanta" isn't a valid argument.  For one, that "cost" is nothing in a mono-death, and two, why can't something like miracle have a zero cost then?  It drains all light quanta anyway.
Because you could use it in a deck that doesn't even use :light quanta. Plus the 15 (or 12) cost makes it hard to play.
That's true.  And that's currently true for the SoS.  You can play it in a mono-death deck, which doesn't use non-death quanta.

And yes, the 15/12 cost makes miracle hard to play.  Then why should SoS, which does something comparable to miracle, be easy to play?  It should have a fairly significant cost (random, obviously, to fit the shard theme) so it can't be played so easily.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on September 19, 2011, 09:31:30 pm
Its the only card in the game that has a cost of dealing damage to the user. I think it would be fine if it did 30 upped, 20 unupped because then you would HAVE to draw it early against rush decks otherwise you would be dead.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 19, 2011, 09:36:49 pm
SoS as is, using the Sundial/Poison deck listed earlier.  Zero practice and just jumping right in:

Game 1: Jezebel.  EM. 18 turns.
Game 2: Octane. EM. 15 turns.
Game 3: Destiny. EM. 17 turns. 
Game 4: Jezebel again. EM. 19 turns.
Game 5: Fire Queen. Loss (deckout/Feral Bond)
Game 6: Dark Matter. EM. 20 turns.
Game 7: Scorpio. EM. 16 turns.
Game 8: Serket.  EM. 17 turns/
Game 9: Elidnis.  EM (barely!) 23 turns. (Feral Bond again)
Game 10: Graviton. EM. 16 turns.


9/10 EMs.  I see losses from Fire Queen, Ferox, Miracle, and sometimes Morte, Elidnis, Paradox and Rainbow.

This is much worse than the Dive/old-SoR deck.  Obviously the correct solution is to give us back the old SoR.


Also, I hated the text colors at first, but I've gotten used to it. :)
Try adding some Dragons for Miracle avoidance and some Plagues to counter Bond gods. It should work even better, and thanks to Sundials you can draw through it easily.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Snopel on September 19, 2011, 09:57:19 pm
Great... My post on page 4 was completely ignored...

With SoS, I think Mono Death has just become so damn powerful. It went from barely being used to becoming an OP mono deck. o_o
SoR now makes a Time Rush possible. (Finally)
SoD still has no use.
SoG with the enemy + HEAPS OF MINDGATES = Goddammit.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on September 19, 2011, 10:19:32 pm
My cents:

Quote from: willng3
Gonna say this right off, not a fan of the text color.

SoS is pretty imbalanced, but I suspect that was done on purpose as usual.

Everything else is amazing; really looking forward to seeing what the rest of the Shards will do.
^My thoughts exactly. Colored rare text just doesn't seem to fit on anything (except for a few unupped nymphs)
The new SoD looks kind of... off. I'm going to miss the old graphic (On the bright side, the old graphics can still be used in forum avatars.)
SoG nerf finally happened, meh.
SoR could lead to some interesting strategies like ArendaDejaVus mentioned earlier in the thread.
SoS seems to be a common card in my Ai1 matches.  :))
I like the subtle effects that occur when SoS, Silence, and Sanc are played.

Overall, nice job Zanz, looking foward to the next few shards.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Chemist on September 19, 2011, 10:39:32 pm
In this version the health loss from SoS is more of a quickly repayed investment than an actual sacrifice. I think it would be more balanced if it took away as much hp AND reduced the player's max hp by the same amount at the end of *each* turn that it was in effect.

The colored text I find looks great on some elements (e.g. other), but not so great at all on some of the rest (e.g. death).
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rutarete on September 19, 2011, 10:52:53 pm
Hooray for update! I'm not a fan of the text colors, nor the Stacking of SoG (examples shown on the first few pages). THere was a suggestionthat Trident/Poseidon be able to target shards. I'm in favor of that.

Otherwise, I like the rest.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RootRanger on September 19, 2011, 11:23:12 pm
If the Death shard is extremely overpowered, I can't even imagine what the Fire shard is going to be like. This is really scaring me.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Chapuz on September 19, 2011, 11:40:43 pm
Yeah well, i think the color stuff on the rare cards isn't cool... Maybe, if you (Zanzarino) want to make a distinction, you can put a little simbol on a corner on at the picture's corner, as the pokemon TCG.

And of course SoS and SoR were made unbalanced by Zanz intentionally.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: MartyrX on September 19, 2011, 11:45:38 pm
Sweet.  I am always looking forward to new changes.  Awesome work Zanz 8)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: artimies7 on September 19, 2011, 11:50:29 pm
Epicboosteryah. The text, though odd, does bring a bit of color to the 'Other' cards. Which isn't bad. Just needs some getting used to.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: suxerz on September 20, 2011, 12:05:26 am
In this version the health loss from SoS is more of a quickly repaid investment than an actual sacrifice. I think it would be more balanced if it took away as much hp AND reduced the player's max hp by the same amount at the end of *each* turn that it was in effect.

The colored text I find looks great on some elements (e.g. other), but not so great at all on some of the rest (e.g. death).
I like this idea particularly reducing the max HP. Though I'm not quite sure if reducing more HP would be wise along with this. I think it could make the card too UP.

Regarding the text colour; yeah, I'm not a fan of it either. I think the problem is that there's no colour left to choose. I think zanz idea is to give the distinction even when the cards are displayed in the deck/bazaar/upgrades. I don't think using symbols would work, because some cards have long names (e.g. shards and nymphs). Unless the names are shortened and/or changed, but I think that will be more confusing. Another option that I could think of right now is to change the border for rares and legendary cards, though that might be too much. All in all, the coloured text is just a cosmetic change. Probably we just need time to get used to it.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: furballdn on September 20, 2011, 01:33:20 am
SoS certainly seems overpowered haha.

Anyways, the colored text change will take a little getting used to, but I find it fairly helpful since it tells you where your rares are.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Wadjet on September 20, 2011, 02:06:22 am
Shard of Sacrifice.. What exactly are you sacrificing? 8 hp? It's not a sacrifice if you get it back + more.

Not a fan of the colors either, but that's why this is a beta, for people to complain and for zanz to change things based on those complaints, good job with the rest of the changes. :3
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rosutosefi on September 20, 2011, 02:41:56 am
the text colors for unupped cards look perfect, but the upped ones look rather weird...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: redium on September 20, 2011, 03:37:44 am
by redium
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4vj 4vj 4vj 6rq 6rq 6rq 6rq 7jq 7jq 7jq 7k1 7k2 7k2 7k3 7k3 7k3 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q1 7q1 7q1 7q1 7q1 7qb 7qb 8ps



Enjoy your absurd amount of light quanta.  I sense DEJRACTAL coming soon.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on September 20, 2011, 04:10:02 am
by bored_ninja777
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4vj 4vj 4vj 6rq 6rq 6rq 6rq 7jq 7jq 7jq 7k1 7k2 7k2 7k3 7k3 7k3 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q1 7q1 7q1 7q1 7q1 7qb 7qb 8ps



Enjoy your absurd amount of light quanta.  I sense DEJRACTAL coming soon.
Throw in an upgraded Hop and you have huge def too.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: zanzarino on September 20, 2011, 05:46:58 am
Ok, the colored text on some cards just looks ugly; I decided to use bands instead becuase they represent absolutely nothing but they look much better and are easy to spot in the deck building/bazaar.

I also changed the card background texture for a few elements with something more smooth.

SoS HP cost increased to 30/24.

Updated OP with the new details.
Thank you for the feedback, keep testing!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 20, 2011, 05:48:53 am
Ok, the colored text on some cards just looks ugly; I decided to use bands instead becuase they represent absolutely nothing but they look much better and are easy to spot in the deck building/bazaar.

I also changed the card background texture for a few elements with something more smooth.

SoS HP cost increased to 30/24.

Updated OP with the new details.
Thank you for the feedback, keep testing!
Sounds good. Keep up the good work!

New new images here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,31187.msg422716#msg422716).
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: DrunkDestroyer on September 20, 2011, 05:53:51 am
Vamp stilletto has 3 bands.



Invoke, Stream of Conciousness.
(Wishing the upped darkness cards had the white bands too, it looks really good)
Life, Water, Darkness and Air look sweeeht with the bands.
Little hard to see the bands on unupped entropy, might have made those black.
Also, good move making earth and time less similar.
Silence looks good. SoS looks good. Sanctuary looks good. Yusss for better looking things! Even in low and med quality! Hoorray for metaphorical plastic surgery! (Updates)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: willng3 on September 20, 2011, 05:55:56 am
Okay the bands thing is much better than the colors.  Although I think that with Water's background texture, particularly in the unupped cards, the bands are a little harder to notice.

EDIT: Then again, this could be simply because I play the game at 69% zoom.

And I must say I'm in love with Life's new background texture :D

Added for lulz:
[02:09:44] TheonlyrealBeef: Unupped Darkness cards now look like black pants that have been washed a few times too often :s
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: zanzarino on September 20, 2011, 06:02:08 am
Vamp stilletto has 3 bands.



Invoke, Stream of Conciousness.
(Wishing the upped darkness cards had the white bands too, it looks really good)
Life, Water, Darkness and Air look sweeeht with the bands.
Little hard to see the bands on unupped entropy, might have made those black.
Also, good move making earth and time less similar.
Fixed Vampire Stiletto, changed all darkness bands to white since they seem so popular.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Snopel on September 20, 2011, 06:15:57 am
 :entropy Looks a little bland, but still quite neat.
 :death Looks awesome!! =)
 :darkness Looks... quite good, actually! AND VAMPIRE STILETTO HAS THREE BANDS!
 :life LOOKS ABSOLUTELY SPECTACULAR!! I LOVE IT!!
 :earth Is umm... I don't know. It's really bland and doesn't represent earth too much like the others, buuutt hey! it looks different to Time now so I'll give it a pass =)

Oh and the bands look FREAKING SPECTACULAR!! I would love to have that for the actual game!
You never fail to disappoint, Zanz. Well done once again!

EDIT: Bands have been fixed. Nevermind.

Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 20, 2011, 06:35:37 am
I'm still not sure about Shard of Sacrifice; the incoming healing from the opponent is still probably enough to heal you up fully anyway. Maybe this is being approached the wrong way? How about something like:

(http://i.imgur.com/Vwv9T.png)

The benefit to :death is more subtle, and it's less OP.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: SnoWeb on September 20, 2011, 06:44:32 am
Regarding the user interface: It looks great and gives a better readability. Bravo.

Regarding the Shards: 

Now I'll shamelessly try to attract your attention, Zanzarino, on the large domination of Fire in the arena. If (as some of us do) you find it is a problem, I proposed "a handicap system" here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30663.0.html). The Idea was quite well perceived by the community. If you have time I'd like to have your opinion.

Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Sevs on September 20, 2011, 06:50:40 am
A couple things

I just feel like some of the shards went to the wrong elements, mainly SoR and SoG.

I especially like what has been done with the bands and card background but darkness does seem a little more gray than black. Just an opinion of course

Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on September 20, 2011, 06:58:46 am
Sacrife a creature will be much better. Now when player has got less than 30 life can't use this...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 20, 2011, 07:00:26 am
I love the new backgrounds and especially the bands. Still not too fond of the rest of the patch, especially Shard of Sacrifice. :/ It's too much of a one-trick pony card: either you win or you lose, no other option. Not a good thing for the metagame, to be sure. :(
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Snopel on September 20, 2011, 07:01:20 am
I agree with Xenocidius. After all, it IS Shard of Sacrifice. It makes so much sense.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Vineroz on September 20, 2011, 07:05:37 am
 :earth and  :time still looks the same
(http://i.imgur.com/aD5hd.jpg)

As for SoR, Adrenaline is an interesting buff, while it doesn't quite match the theme. Probably because I was thinking of this:
(http://i.imgur.com/KTuEF.png)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Bhlewos on September 20, 2011, 07:38:05 am
Aww...I knew the exploitation of SoS in FG farming couldn't last...even in beta.

Balances look good though. I'll keep trying them out tomorrow

EDIT: Also...anyone else miss SoD's old image? Here's to hoping Zanz reuses that art for another Shard.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Kamietsu on September 20, 2011, 07:40:56 am
Love the bands behind the name for the rarity. It's definitely an improvement. Though it almost makes me wish regular cards had a single band. It just looks nice :D
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Toxx on September 20, 2011, 07:45:48 am
Well done.

I kinda miss the unique looks the  :life  :darkness  :death  :entropy  :earth cards had.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Snopel on September 20, 2011, 08:03:20 am
Also...anyone else miss SoD's old image? Here's to hoping Zanz reuses that art for another Shard.
Right here. We have yellow, green, and a white shiny one for a shard that no one uses.
I liked blue. It looked... original. =D
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: majofa on September 20, 2011, 08:10:18 am
Would it be better if the 'Band' was on the right side of the title instead of the left?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rosutosefi on September 20, 2011, 08:26:36 am
The reason why SoD is white is most likely because the other colors will be used for the other elements, and purple/blue definitely does not fit into light.

And SoD > heal. It won't help you EM, but EM's don't matter much in the metagame.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 20, 2011, 08:48:19 am
Thematic input for switching Shard of Gratitude and Shard of Readiness. If you call Shard of Readiness "Shard of Vitality" instead, it fits Life well (vitality is definitely a Life virtue and it fits thematically the mechanics of the card), and if you call Shard of Gratitude "Shard of Renovation" instead, it fits Time well. The theme is intact, the mechanics are only slightly switched around, and the game would benefit more, because of:
- Shard of Readiness obvious synergy with Mitosis (one of the only meaningful synergies of the original card).
- Adrenaline being a Life effect and giving Adrenaline to Time could produce broken combos (MitoGhosts is pretty powerful, and AdrenaVus is outright broken with its amazingly common four turns wins). Also this avoids taking away from Adrenaline's uniqueness.
- Shard of Gratitude's synergy with Time stalling capacity (Sundial, Procrastination) and Time's starving for healing already.
- Shard of Gratitude's great overlap with Empathic Bond, Druidic Staff, AdrenaStaves, Heal which are already enough healing cards for Life, most likely.
- Time's low synergy with Fire and Firestalls not benefiting as much from a Time shard (unupped Firestall with Life mark and SoG + Thorn Carapace is stronger than Candlelight, and that's more than something).
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Kuroaitou on September 20, 2011, 09:08:49 am
Time to play devil's advocate a bit here (no pun intended).

For everyone who wants to switch Shard of Gratitude and Shard of Readiness around in terms of what elements they affect, don't you think that the redundancies of Adrenaline PLUS a Shard that can also grant adrenaline to those creatures is a bit silly? Also, if Shard of Gratitude is affected by :time marks, all I know is that timebows (that often use Shard of Gratitude for healing with Sanctuary) will actually require the switched shard format in order to gain the healing boost. And yes, while Mitosis can be pricey for some creatures, I personally think that SoG fits :life and SoR still fits :time, even if SoR might break conventions regarding Adrenavu combinations.

Thanks for changing the backgrounds and adding 'bands' to the cards Zanz. :) I still think it should be (1 band = rare, 2 bands = legendary) so that the ones w/o bands are seen as the 'common' cards, but aesthetics aside, it's all awesomesauceness. ^^
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Sevs on September 20, 2011, 09:23:29 am
Time to play devil's advocate a bit here (no pun intended).

For everyone who wants to switch Shard of Gratitude and Shard of Readiness around in terms of what elements they affect, don't you think that the redundancies of Adrenaline PLUS a Shard that can also grant adrenaline to those creatures is a bit silly? Also, if Shard of Gratitude is affected by :time marks, all I know is that timebows (that often use Shard of Gratitude for healing with Sanctuary) will actually require the switched shard format in order to gain the healing boost. And yes, while Mitosis can be pricey for some creatures, I personally think that SoG fits :life and SoR still fits :time, even if SoR might break conventions regarding Adrenavu combinations.

Thanks for changing the backgrounds and adding 'bands' to the cards Zanz. :) I still think it should be (1 band = rare, 2 bands = legendary) so that the ones w/o bands are seen as the 'common' cards, but aesthetics aside, it's all awesomesauceness. ^^
I think that SoR would give "First turn activation" instead of adrenaline if it were to move to life.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Kamietsu on September 20, 2011, 09:26:59 am
Time to play devil's advocate a bit here (no pun intended).

For everyone who wants to switch Shard of Gratitude and Shard of Readiness around in terms of what elements they affect, don't you think that the redundancies of Adrenaline PLUS a Shard that can also grant adrenaline to those creatures is a bit silly? Also, if Shard of Gratitude is affected by :time marks, all I know is that timebows (that often use Shard of Gratitude for healing with Sanctuary) will actually require the switched shard format in order to gain the healing boost. And yes, while Mitosis can be pricey for some creatures, I personally think that SoG fits :life and SoR still fits :time, even if SoR might break conventions regarding Adrenavu combinations.

Thanks for changing the backgrounds and adding 'bands' to the cards Zanz. :) I still think it should be (1 band = rare, 2 bands = legendary) so that the ones w/o bands are seen as the 'common' cards, but aesthetics aside, it's all awesomesauceness. ^^
I think that SoR would give "First turn activation" instead of adrenaline if it were to move to life.
I think it should give "First Turn Activation(FTA)" instead of adrenaline regardless of paired Element.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Snopel on September 20, 2011, 09:43:26 am
I think it should give "First Turn Activation(FTA)" instead of adrenaline regardless of paired Element.
This.
Or if it has already been a turn before SoR is activated, it can use the ability again in the same turn.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rosutosefi on September 20, 2011, 09:58:41 am
Problem is, no one will use adrenaline if the switch happens.
My suggestion is still the same.  :time buff rush for 2x attack to make the anubis happy. :)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: gumbeh on September 20, 2011, 10:00:20 am
The bands are much better. I too would prefer them on the right, instead of behind the text, but I'm still quite happy with them.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Calindu on September 20, 2011, 10:01:21 am
Or if it has already been a turn before SoR is activated, it can use the ability again in the same turn.
Double RT much?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 20, 2011, 10:34:21 am
Time to play devil's advocate a bit here (no pun intended).

For everyone who wants to switch Shard of Gratitude and Shard of Readiness around in terms of what elements they affect, don't you think that the redundancies of Adrenaline PLUS a Shard that can also grant adrenaline to those creatures is a bit silly? Also, if Shard of Gratitude is affected by :time marks, all I know is that timebows (that often use Shard of Gratitude for healing with Sanctuary) will actually require the switched shard format in order to gain the healing boost. And yes, while Mitosis can be pricey for some creatures, I personally think that SoG fits :life and SoR still fits :time, even if SoR might break conventions regarding Adrenavu combinations.

Thanks for changing the backgrounds and adding 'bands' to the cards Zanz. :) I still think it should be (1 band = rare, 2 bands = legendary) so that the ones w/o bands are seen as the 'common' cards, but aesthetics aside, it's all awesomesauceness. ^^

Problems leaving the shards the way they are:
- SoG is redundant in its element and will be used only by other elements at best splashing with Life mark.
- SoG is still very powerful and upped SoG still enables Firestalls and healing stalls in general (which is why it is banned from 90% of competitive PvP options).
- SoG is not what Life needs and doesn't really synergize with that element.
- SoR is redundant with Adrenaline and makes Adrenaline less unique.
- SoR will not be used for its main purpose since it is rarely if ever used for that to start with (SoR decks are considered very original, just take a look at the feedback on FFQ+SoR deck in last Air Trials), SoR will be used as in-element rush option for Time
- SoR enables one broken deck (AdrenaVus) which has the potential to be the fastest rush in the game. Immorushes are bad enough already, this actually multiplies its power over time too, possibly turning it into an outright farming monster.
- SoR does not help Time stall (the Master of Time 10 men said more than once that Time requires healing to be effective), it helps Time rush. The metagame will be even more rush-centered.

Problems switching Shards:
- Thematic issues (although I think Shard of Renovation and Shard of Vitality would be pretty thematic)
- SoR would be redundant with Adrenaline.
- SoG would benefit Timebows more and Firestalls less. I don't see a problem here, but I guess if you're really annoyed at the old fat Timebows while you somehow love facing the almost unbeatable Firestalls you see in the Arena every day, that's kind of a problem. I see it more as a benefit, but eh.


A point in common is that SoR is redundant with Adrenaline.

I think it should give "First Turn Activation(FTA)" instead of adrenaline regardless of paired Element.

As for the rest, I don't see why they should not be switched, apart from wanting to stick with the habit of seeing SoG as the green shard and SoR as the yellow one. :/
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on September 20, 2011, 12:29:55 pm
I personally think SoR fits Time fine, as well as SoG fits Life.

First turn activation was overpowered on diving creatures if I remember correctly, but it would fit perfectly on just Time creatures (like Vineroz said), keeping the elementalization thing these shards have going. Scarab or Deja Vu rush buff decks could really use the turn for a quick burst attack.

For SoG I'd like to see both upgraded and unupgraded versions to give -1 healing to non-life marks. This makes it less viable splashed into every stall, while making it more useful for Life. The adrenastaves argument isn't a good one in my opinion, that's a 3 card combo (almost a deck in itself really, and not all that Life is about) that requires either a duo or upgraded cards and is much easier to counter (permanents are harder to get rid of, known fact). Unflown the staves are restricted to only one, while SoGs give the same healing (or -1 unupgraded) while their cost is other! Really no reason to worry about them not seeing use.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on September 20, 2011, 02:12:13 pm
Nova + SoG in a life deck results in a cost of 5 cards for 16|20 Regeneration. ~ Cost 1 card per 3.2|4 Regeneration
Adrenaline Flying Druidic Staff costs 3 cards +2 :life +1 :air|1 :life per 20 Regeneration. ~ Costs 1 card + 1.33 :life|1 :life per 6.67 Regeneration

SoG using  :rainbow to pay for the  :rainbow cost has more efficient Regeneration/Cost ratio for Life marks. (3.2|4 vs 2.9|3.33) So when a Life Elemental wants healing more than damage they will use the SoG.

Adrenaline's mechanical effect (attack more times per turn) is thematically appropriate both to Life (hormones) and to Time (Temporal Acceleration)

Time does not need Healing to Stall. It needs more defenses against damage but healing is not the only option. Personally I do not think there is a Virtue (Shard naming convention) that is thematic to both Time and Healing.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: willng3 on September 20, 2011, 02:35:33 pm
SoG using  :rainbow to pay for the  :rainbow cost has more efficient Regeneration/Cost ratio for Life marks. (3.2|4 vs 2.9|3.33) So when a Life Elemental wants healing more than damage they will use the SoG.
Correction.  If a Life Elemental wants healing more than damage they will use SoG and Nova/Quantum Pillar.  Otherwise you're not getting quite the same bang for your buck so to speak.

This is important to note because running this type of setup is likely to have a few rather unwanted effects in a heavily :life based deck, but will function magnificently in a more :rainbow based deck.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: loadquo on September 20, 2011, 04:29:25 pm
If the Shard of Sacrifice is going to stay as is, I'd like to see some of the other shards act as counters. Perhaps an Earthern shard of steadfastness, a permanent that when activated stops your creatures attacking (and gave +1 HP to earth creatures or some other useful effect). It would be useful against antimatter, fire shield and also voodoo doll decks, so not completely useless in the current meta. Also it might enable you to control for EM as well.

Also I'd like to see healing cards be able to be played on the other elemental. So that people can take advantage of the swapped nature of the healing.

SoR does seem a bit overpowered from having played around with it a bit. Not sure what to do about that though.

Edit: Also another counter would be a death themed shard that reduced the efficacy of all healing by 50-75% for a couple of turns. There is no current way to reduce healing which is why it is so strong.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Jocko on September 20, 2011, 06:44:25 pm
I don't really know if this has been posted, but im not going to read that much pages of discussion, so i'll put it down just in case.
AI commits suicide with SoD, also it will play a SoD even if there other SoDs in place.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RRQJ on September 20, 2011, 06:51:10 pm
I guessing you mean SoS? How can the AI do that with SoD?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: James Abrams on September 20, 2011, 07:12:10 pm
Interestingly, I can't seem to purchase the arctic octopus in the link provided.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on September 20, 2011, 07:44:47 pm
Interestingly, I can't seem to purchase the arctic octopus in the link provided.
Thats because its a rare card so it cant be purchased
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: astraldragoon on September 20, 2011, 08:15:25 pm
Interestingly, I can't seem to purchase the arctic octopus in the link provided.
Thats because its a rare card so it cant be purchased
this is kind of a trainer so you should be able too
check pharaoh
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: willng3 on September 20, 2011, 08:19:07 pm
Interestingly, I can't seem to purchase the arctic octopus in the link provided.
Thats because its a rare card so it cant be purchased
this is kind of a trainer so you should be able too
check pharaoh
Hmm...and Miracle.  Yeah, that sounds like a bug then.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on September 20, 2011, 08:20:36 pm
He's correct. You can buy all kinds of rares in the Beta except Squid. Of course, you can just click "All Cards"  ::)
You can also buy Nymphs in the Trainer, but not other rares. Rather funny.

By the by, I don't like the shade on the Death cards. They look weak and not at all Death-y anymore. More like a wimpy lilac sickly colour.
Darkness looks a bit weaker too, but I love the new Life. The rest are good.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Jocko on September 20, 2011, 08:21:33 pm
I guessing you mean SoS? How can the AI do that with SoD?
Yeah, i meant SoS.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Essence on September 20, 2011, 08:31:29 pm
In this version the health loss from SoS is more of a quickly repaid investment than an actual sacrifice. I think it would be more balanced if it took away as much hp AND reduced the player's max hp by the same amount at the end of *each* turn that it was in effect.
I like this idea particularly reducing the max HP. Though I'm not quite sure if reducing more HP would be wise along with this. I think it could make the card too UP.

Are you kidding?  Even if you lost 12 (8 upgraded) MaxHP every time you used it, you're still left at the end with a minimum of 12 turns of complete invulnerability (which can usually be stretched out by at least another 8 turns by a clever user) and you end the entire stretch with 28 (52 upgraded) HP (and you're still getting an EM).

I think that having the sacrifice be MaxHP is a good start, but I'm honestly not sure that it's enough.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ddevans96 on September 20, 2011, 08:44:50 pm
Absolutely love the elegance of the rarity bands. I do think they should be universally off-white for the unupped and dark gray for the upped, to match the card names. There would be enough contrast with :light and :darkness for it to work.

I also love the new backgrounds. At first, I thought I was going to hate them, but :death's new background is much more beautiful (no more dead rocks!). Maybe they could use a little more contrast, especially :earth, which looks mostly plain on the card.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: NikaZaslavsky on September 20, 2011, 08:45:22 pm
I don't like any of the new backgrounds, but I like the new shard.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: suxerz on September 20, 2011, 08:49:14 pm
In this version the health loss from SoS is more of a quickly repaid investment than an actual sacrifice. I think it would be more balanced if it took away as much hp AND reduced the player's max hp by the same amount at the end of *each* turn that it was in effect.
I like this idea particularly reducing the max HP. Though I'm not quite sure if reducing more HP would be wise along with this. I think it could make the card too UP.
Are you kidding?  Even if you lost 12 (8 upgraded) MaxHP every time you used it, you're still left at the end with a minimum of 12 turns of complete invulnerability (which can usually be stretched out by at least another 8 turns by a clever user) and you end the entire stretch with 28 (52 upgraded) HP (and you're still getting an EM).

I think that having the sacrifice be MaxHP is a good start, but I'm honestly not sure that it's enough.
Hm... I think either of us may misunderstood the point that Chemist made. In my mind, it's going to be -12 | -8 to max HP EACH turn SoS is in effect. So, if I played 6 SoS, by the end of 12th turn I will only have 100-(12 x 12) = -44?? or 100-(8 x 12) = 4 HP left. That's the reason why I thought it will be UP if more HP is reduced each turn.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on September 20, 2011, 08:59:14 pm
So when Zanz changed backgrounds it would be nice to change also background Wyrm|Elite Wyrm  :)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: teffy on September 20, 2011, 09:17:48 pm
Nice, we´ll soon get some shards. Some comments:
- I like the old life background more, because it looks more like a leaf, the structure of the leaf looks more natural.
- New bands are good, I think they should be white.
- SoR has some good targets in time: Deja vu and GotP. This will improve time rushs even more.I´d rather see an precognition effect added (creature are ready to use skill and they also see parts of the future).
-SoS is not balanced yet, I doubt that it´s possible to balance it, because it´s more useful against FGs and Arena with a higher damage output than PvP
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Essence on September 20, 2011, 09:21:07 pm
OK, thoughts on the new SoS:

It's more dangerous to use now, because your opponent only has to get you down to 30/24 HP before it's unusable.  But really all that does is make you start using it a turn earlier -- essentially taking a turn or maybe a few off of the length of your SoS chain.  It doesn't really address the core problem, which is that SoS is a completely unbreakable defense and it's free. 

Making it a 20 (15 upgraded) reduction in MaxHP in order to use it would be entirely appropriate.  That's a SACRIFICE, and it means that you don't get to heal up to 100 HP while the Shard is in play -- you only get 80/60/40/etc.  That reduces the amount of time you can afford to spend between playing Shards, which in turn shortens the overall length of invulnerability AND makes you MUCH easier to kill once it's over -- which is appropriate given just how much you can accomplish with 12 turns of unbreakable invlunerability.

Also, it makes SoDs valuable in conjunction with SoS, which I think is cool. ;)


On the graphics tip, other than the Earth/Time being too similar thing, I think everything is AWESOME. 

Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: astraldragoon on September 20, 2011, 10:02:08 pm
Absolutely love the elegance of the rarity bands. I do think they should be universally off-white for the unupped and dark gray for the upped, to match the card names. There would be enough contrast with :light and :darkness for it to work.

I also love the new backgrounds. At first, I thought I was going to hate them, but :death's new background is much more beautiful (no more dead rocks!). Maybe they could use a little more contrast, especially :earth, which looks mostly plain on the card.
Yeah that's what i'm talking about, more contrast:
old  :darkness border was cool!
or check  :water upped cards: there you spot that the background is water.
same for  :life: its a leaf behind, one look and you dig it, that is awesome.
but  :time and  :earth as i said are so similar: color close the same and no contrast, i mean sand on time card is so cheap, its like they not there you have to look a lot to spot it, its not enough ''blingbling", the sand idea is really nice it fit it good, just make it more nice for peoples who's blind like me :D
for  :aether i like the brighter effect, i think it fit good the aether side.
 :air is also kinda poor, put on some clouds in the background.
old  :death background isnt my friend
 :entropy looks cheap, nothing special on it, and if i'm not wrong it's the same as other
 :fire is nice but need some more contrast also i think, something more agressive
 :gravity the contrast betwin unnup and upped cards is big, but it change nothing at the deal, poor background
 :light background = nothing xD

what i want to say, it's i dont juge any backgrounds, it a LOT of work and i'm not able to do so.
but if you ask me, i think that borders need some style buff!
i know zanz can make miracles. :)

EDIT about ZanZ new backgrounds:

entropy: awesome but, not enough contrast
death: as i said old isnt my friend, i really like this one, the color make the death look strong and cold
earth: kinda same as the other, still lookin like time cards
life: kinda cheaper than the old one
darkness: for me the old is better

so i think ZanZ want to go to a smother way than my ideas, just focus on color and not too much on image/color/contrast.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Camoninja on September 20, 2011, 10:46:36 pm
Smooth card backgrounds ftw! But I still don't notice too much difference between :time and :earth by backgrounds.
And I think a high HP cost for Shard of Sacrifice should do. It limits the use on the other end, so if you don't do that much damage per turn you can counter it. Of course I have to test before anyone should believe me though ^^
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rutarete on September 20, 2011, 10:56:56 pm
Frankly, I don't like the new borders. The current ones have a pattern on them, and more variance in color.
Edit: Especially after looking in the beta at all the cards with new borders. They all look dull-ish, and not as exciting.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Camoninja on September 20, 2011, 11:22:45 pm
:D Serket has SoS! *farms FGs*
>.<

I do like the stripes on all of them but Darkness, I can't quite see the stripes clearly. Could you make them pure black or something?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Essence on September 20, 2011, 11:36:24 pm
For everyone who doesn't know/remember: whenever a card is in beta-testing, it's added to ALL AI decks temporarily to see how the AI uses it.

Thats why everyone has SoS right now. 

Speaking of which, the AI needs to understand SoS better.  For example, Octane keeps detonating Unstable Gas despite SoS being active, when that's a clear example of something better saved for the end of the SoS chain (assuming he lives that long...mwahaaahaha...)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on September 21, 2011, 12:22:22 am
Does using sos while another is active GIVE hp or does it still take away?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rember on September 21, 2011, 12:56:31 am
Does using sos while another is active GIVE hp or does it still take away?
While the former would be hilarious, the answer would be the latter.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rosutosefi on September 21, 2011, 01:47:11 am
miracle still heals someone using SoS. This is a bug, right?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: suxerz on September 21, 2011, 02:33:27 am
miracle still heals someone using SoS. This is a bug, right?
Erk... I could swear it was the other way around yesterday, but probably I missed Miracle. Anyways, I've just tested it again with other healing methods namely Holy Flash, Granite Skin, SoDs, SoGs, Drain Life and of course Miracle. All inflict damage respectively except Miracle.

I'm pretty sure it's a bug, but... who knows? Zanz, reply pl0x >.<


edit: Moar tests! BH, Purify, Vampire (including Vampire Dagger), Light Nymph ability and opponent's AM'd creature deals damage as intended. Also, self inflicted damage still heals as usual; namely Firebolt, Ice Lance, Shockwave, Lightning, discarding GotP, an AM'd Vampires on my side and damaging opponent's Voodoo.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on September 21, 2011, 04:13:12 am
miracle still heals someone using SoS. This is a bug, right?
Erk... I could swear it was the other way around yesterday, but probably I missed Miracle. Anyways, I've just tested it again with other healing methods namely Holy Flash, Granite Skin, SoDs, SoGs, Drain Life and of course Miracle. All inflict damage respectively except Miracle.

I'm pretty sure it's a bug, but... who knows? Zanz, reply pl0x >.<


edit: Moar tests! BH, Purify, Vampire (including Vampire Dagger), Light Nymph ability and opponent's AM'd creature deals damage as intended. Also, self inflicted damage still heals as usual; namely Firebolt, Ice Lance, Shockwave, Lightning, discarding GotP, an AM'd Vampires on my side and damaging opponent's Voodoo.
So wait, should your opponents vampire creatures still heal you and do damage to the opponent like if they were am'd when this is out? Because right now they dont.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RRQJ on September 21, 2011, 04:21:47 am
It shouldn't.  SoS doesn't change/reflect the attack of the vampire.  Both players should heal.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on September 21, 2011, 04:52:15 am
Your Vampire + Your SoS = You take damage, they take damage
Their Vampire + Your SoS = You heal, they heal

Reason:
Vampire deals damage and heals controller, then SoS inverts the damage/healing. Since SoS happens after Vampire it only inverts one of the values.

Antimatter inverts the Attack thus Vampire happens second causing a second inverted value.

Order: Antimatter, Shield, Attack, Vampire, SoS
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: SnoWeb on September 21, 2011, 06:39:05 am
Making it a 20 (15 upgraded) reduction in MaxHP in order to use it would be entirely appropriate.
I completely agree. It would be a real sacrifice. Something you can only overcome with the use of another card. The present version is not a sacrifice. It is merely an investment. You pay 30|24 hoping you get your invesment back with interest if the market is good. No to Shard of Investment, yes to shard of Sacrifice.
Also, I still don't know why SoS is not a permanent ... Phase shield can be destroyed or bypassed. Not SoS! At least with Essence's Idea it has a weakness.

P.S.: I was also hoping for more contrast between Time and Earth backgrounds
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 21, 2011, 07:29:33 am
I'm still not sure about Shard of Sacrifice; the incoming healing from the opponent is still probably enough to heal you up fully anyway. Maybe this is being approached the wrong way? How about something like:

(http://i.imgur.com/Vwv9T.png)

The benefit to :death is more subtle, and it's less OP.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on September 21, 2011, 12:05:09 pm
miracle still heals someone using SoS. This is a bug, right?
Erk... I could swear it was the other way around yesterday, but probably I missed Miracle. Anyways, I've just tested it again with other healing methods namely Holy Flash, Granite Skin, SoDs, SoGs, Drain Life and of course Miracle. All inflict damage respectively except Miracle.

I'm pretty sure it's a bug, but... who knows? Zanz, reply pl0x >.<
Miracle doesn't actually heal. Instead, it just sets HP at max minus 1. If it's supposed to hurt you under SoS, it's merely unintended behaviour.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: pikachufan2164 on September 21, 2011, 12:34:16 pm
miracle still heals someone using SoS. This is a bug, right?
Erk... I could swear it was the other way around yesterday, but probably I missed Miracle. Anyways, I've just tested it again with other healing methods namely Holy Flash, Granite Skin, SoDs, SoGs, Drain Life and of course Miracle. All inflict damage respectively except Miracle.

I'm pretty sure it's a bug, but... who knows? Zanz, reply pl0x >.<
Miracle doesn't actually heal. Instead, it just sets HP at max minus 1. If it's supposed to hurt you under SoS, it's merely unintended behaviour.
Hm. Zanz chat from July says that Miracle will set HP to 1.

[10:06:50 PM] pikachufan2164: How will it interact with Miracle? At the moment, Miracle just sets HP to max-1
[10:07:02 PM] zanzarino: Miracle would set your Hp to 1
[10:07:05 PM] zanzarino: (again)

Of course, this was back in July, so Zanz may have changed his mind on the matter.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: teffy on September 21, 2011, 01:04:25 pm
When zanz talked about that in chat , SoS should set the HP to 1 as it´s still written on the development page. Miracle in beta trainer sets HP to max-1, and I guess it´s intended. But it´s good to mention it , here.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ddevans96 on September 21, 2011, 01:32:35 pm
I'm still not sure about Shard of Sacrifice; the incoming healing from the opponent is still probably enough to heal you up fully anyway. Maybe this is being approached the wrong way? How about something like:

(http://i.imgur.com/Vwv9T.png)

The benefit to :death is more subtle, and it's less OP.


I would totally support this.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on September 21, 2011, 01:48:12 pm
miracle still heals someone using SoS. This is a bug, right?
Erk... I could swear it was the other way around yesterday, but probably I missed Miracle. Anyways, I've just tested it again with other healing methods namely Holy Flash, Granite Skin, SoDs, SoGs, Drain Life and of course Miracle. All inflict damage respectively except Miracle.

I'm pretty sure it's a bug, but... who knows? Zanz, reply pl0x >.<
Miracle doesn't actually heal. Instead, it just sets HP at max minus 1. If it's supposed to hurt you under SoS, it's merely unintended behaviour.
Your Vampire + Your SoS = You take damage, they take damage
Their Vampire + Your SoS = You heal, they heal

Reason:
Vampire deals damage and heals controller, then SoS inverts the damage/healing. Since SoS happens after Vampire it only inverts one of the values.

Antimatter inverts the Attack thus Vampire happens second causing a second inverted value.

Order: Antimatter, Shield, Attack, Vampire, SoS

Im tired of people talking from a developer standpoint, and not a player standpoint. I am a player, not a developer. I dont care how the mechanics work, all I care about it what the cards say they will do. Nothing more, nothing less. If a card says it is going to do something, then it should do it, even if thats not "mechanically" how the game handles it. I understand mechanically how it is working, but that doesnt mean its working properly, even if Zanz says it is intended.

To put it simple though....
(http://i.imgur.com/ZcpPX.png)
healing and damage is swapped. A vampire attacks, it heals instead, which should drain damage the vampire player.

(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/ImprovedMiracle.png)
HEAL is the key word. I honestly dont care mechanically how ANY card works if it differentiates from what the card SAYS.

It is great to have such a dedicated fanbase, and dont get me wrong, I have defended trying out cards to understand how they work, HOWEVER, if a card SPECIFICALLY SAYS one thing, and DOESNT DO IT, then there is a problem. Intended behavior will seem like a bug. Vampire I can sort of understand (despite its inconsistency), but there is no excuse for miracle to still heal. Im hoping that it truely is just a bug, and not intended behavior.

OH MY GOSH I STILL GOT HEALED ITS A MIRACLE!!!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on September 21, 2011, 02:07:27 pm
That's why I said unintended behaviour. At no point do I talk from the developer's standpoint. What I do is look at the mechanics for an explanation as to why it may be unintended. Nice unwarranted aggressiveness though.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on September 21, 2011, 02:26:18 pm
That's why I said unintended behaviour. At no point do I talk from the developer's standpoint. What I do is look at the mechanics for an explanation as to why it may be unintended. Nice unwarranted aggressiveness though.
Quote
Miracle doesn't actually heal. Instead, it just sets HP at max minus 1. If it's supposed to hurt you under SoS, it's merely unintended behaviour.
If is the key word, which means you dont state that its unintended behavior. Instead you stated the mechanic, and ignored the cards wording in the process by saying it doesnt heal.____________

By the way, not to derail the discussion or anything but, have you seen the code, and therefor know it doesnt heal, or are you just assuming so by it not being effected here? This isnt a sarcasm attempt, as I am actually wondering if the coding is simply setting the currentHP to maxHP-1 or if it is actually doing the math and adding the difference between currentHP and the maxHP-1).
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on September 21, 2011, 02:39:50 pm
Hence "may be unintended". You are really not listening here, and your confirmation bias makes you think people are saying things they aren't. This results in two useless and immature posts that derail the thread, so it would be good to close the issue here and take it elsewhere if you wish.
Yes, I've looked at the pseudo-code, and this is far from the first example where its actual effect makes a difference as opposed to healing.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: suxerz on September 21, 2011, 03:52:36 pm
@Higs - Yeah, that's probably it. I said it's a bug particularly because what zanz said in chat few months ago as pointed out by pika. Though I really hope zanz will change this.


...snip..
healing and damage is swapped. A vampire attacks, it heals instead, which should drain damage the vampire player.
I'm assuming that you are talking about the interaction between opponent's vampire (or any opponent's creature that has been LS'd) while you have SoS active.

I don't quite understand why do you think it should damage the opponent as well. The only way it should happen is by an AM'd vampire. Though it may seem like SoS is a mass-AM spell, it is not. It only affects the damage or heal done to you. Whatever happens on the opponent side will act as normal. Also, your own vampire will still deal damage to the opponent AND inflict damage to you (from the vampiric ability) as the card says.

On the other hand, I began to feel the card's text needs rewording. Particularly on clarifying that it only affects the damage or heal done to you; but some cards already have these "hidden" mechanics, so... probably not.  ;)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RRQJ on September 21, 2011, 05:19:23 pm
yeah, like suxerz said, if you think vampire should drain damage the opponent when it attacks you while you have SoS, then you 'll need to explain what happens if you had the vampire with SoS active.  And I'm sure you'll find that it makes no sense for either player to heal in that case.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on September 21, 2011, 07:15:14 pm
Your Vampire + Your SoS = You take damage, they take damage
Their Vampire + Your SoS = You heal, they heal

Reason:
Vampire deals damage and heals controller, then SoS inverts the damage/healing. Since SoS happens after Vampire it only inverts one of the values.

Antimatter inverts the Attack thus Vampire happens second causing a second inverted value.

Order: Antimatter, Shield, Attack, Vampire, SoS

Im tired of people talking from a developer standpoint, and not a player standpoint. I am a player, not a developer. I dont care how the mechanics work, all I care about it what the cards say they will do. Nothing more, nothing less. If a card says it is going to do something, then it should do it, even if thats not "mechanically" how the game handles it. I understand mechanically how it is working, but that doesnt mean its working properly, even if Zanz says it is intended.

To put it simple though....
(http://i.imgur.com/ZcpPX.png)
healing and damage is swapped. A vampire attacks, it heals instead, which should drain damage the vampire player.
Order is important for players too. However it is something that is more interesting to the players that want to know the rules of the game they are playing.
Imagine you had a Guardian Angel targeted both by the Lightning spell and Heal ability. Is its current hp 1 or 6? This depends on which happens first.

Vampire: "The damage dealt is returned to you as healing."
SoS: Swap Damage [to you] with Healing [to you]. [The to you is implied by the condition only affecting one player]

If SoS triggers before Vampire then your interpretation is correct.
Creature attacks, damage is swapped with healing, Vampire returns healing as damage
If Vampire triggers before SoS then your interpretation is incorrect.
Creature attacks, Vampire returns damage as healing, damage is swapped with healing

The second case occurs, therefore SoS triggers after Vampire has passed on the healing.
Event SequenceController of VampireController of SoS
AttacknothingDamage
VampireHealingDamage
SoSHealingHealing
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on September 21, 2011, 07:37:58 pm
miracle still heals someone using SoS. This is a bug, right?
Erk... I could swear it was the other way around yesterday, but probably I missed Miracle. Anyways, I've just tested it again with other healing methods namely Holy Flash, Granite Skin, SoDs, SoGs, Drain Life and of course Miracle. All inflict damage respectively except Miracle.

I'm pretty sure it's a bug, but... who knows? Zanz, reply pl0x >.<
Miracle doesn't actually heal. Instead, it just sets HP at max minus 1. If it's supposed to hurt you under SoS, it's merely unintended behaviour.
Your Vampire + Your SoS = You take damage, they take damage
Their Vampire + Your SoS = You heal, they heal

Reason:
Vampire deals damage and heals controller, then SoS inverts the damage/healing. Since SoS happens after Vampire it only inverts one of the values.

Antimatter inverts the Attack thus Vampire happens second causing a second inverted value.

Order: Antimatter, Shield, Attack, Vampire, SoS

Im tired of people talking from a developer standpoint, and not a player standpoint. I am a player, not a developer. I dont care how the mechanics work, all I care about it what the cards say they will do. Nothing more, nothing less. If a card says it is going to do something, then it should do it, even if thats not "mechanically" how the game handles it. I understand mechanically how it is working, but that doesnt mean its working properly, even if Zanz says it is intended.

To put it simple though....
(http://i.imgur.com/ZcpPX.png)
healing and damage is swapped. A vampire attacks, it heals instead, which should drain damage the vampire player.

(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/ImprovedMiracle.png)
HEAL is the key word. I honestly dont care mechanically how ANY card works if it differentiates from what the card SAYS.

It is great to have such a dedicated fanbase, and dont get me wrong, I have defended trying out cards to understand how they work, HOWEVER, if a card SPECIFICALLY SAYS one thing, and DOESNT DO IT, then there is a problem. Intended behavior will seem like a bug. Vampire I can sort of understand (despite its inconsistency), but there is no excuse for miracle to still heal. Im hoping that it truely is just a bug, and not intended behavior.

OH MY GOSH I STILL GOT HEALED ITS A MIRACLE!!!
EtG is not a game for card literalists the way other games are.  Cards often do something other than exactly what they say.  Bonewall and Morningstar immediately come to mind.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Chapuz on September 21, 2011, 08:15:27 pm
Your Vampire + Your SoS = You take damage, they take damage
Their Vampire + Your SoS = You heal, they heal

Reason:
Vampire deals damage and heals controller, then SoS inverts the damage/healing. Since SoS happens after Vampire it only inverts one of the values.

Antimatter inverts the Attack thus Vampire happens second causing a second inverted value.

Order: Antimatter, Shield, Attack, Vampire, SoS

Im tired of people talking from a developer standpoint, and not a player standpoint. I am a player, not a developer. I dont care how the mechanics work, all I care about it what the cards say they will do. Nothing more, nothing less. If a card says it is going to do something, then it should do it, even if thats not "mechanically" how the game handles it. I understand mechanically how it is working, but that doesnt mean its working properly, even if Zanz says it is intended.

To put it simple though....
(http://i.imgur.com/ZcpPX.png)
healing and damage is swapped. A vampire attacks, it heals instead, which should drain damage the vampire player.
Order is important for players too. However it is something that is more interesting to the players that want to know the rules of the game they are playing.
Imagine you had a Guardian Angel targeted both by the Lightning spell and Heal ability. Is its current hp 1 or 6? This depends on which happens first.

Vampire: "The damage dealt is returned to you as healing."
SoS: Swap Damage with Healing

If SoS triggers before Vampire then your interpretation is correct.
Creature attacks, damage is swapped with healing, Vampire returns healing as damage
If Vampire triggers before SoS then your interpretation is incorrect.
Creature attacks, Vampire returns damage as healing, damage is swapped with healing

The second case occurs, therefore SoS triggers after Vampire has passed on the healing.
Event SequenceController of VampireController of SoS
AttacknothingDamage
VampireHealingDamage
SoSHealingHealing
That's a crazy and wise philosopher's discution xD

In my opinion, it must change both player's damage and heal:
common vamp attak: attak oponent and heal you for that damage
with SoS: heal oponent the amount of damage he would be taken and that's the damage you take.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RRQJ on September 21, 2011, 09:54:22 pm
In my opinion, it must change both player's damage and heal:
common vamp attak: attak oponent and heal you for that damage
with SoS: heal oponent the amount of damage he would be taken and that's the damage you take.
Explain what should happen then if you had both the SoS and the vampire on your side of the field and they had nothing.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on September 21, 2011, 10:07:12 pm
In my opinion, it must change both player's damage and heal:
common vamp attak: attak oponent and heal you for that damage
with SoS: heal oponent the amount of damage he would be taken and that's the damage you take.
I see that it might be wise if I lay out both possible options.

Option 1: Vampire happens before SoS (status quo)

Your Vampire attacks
They don't have SoSThey have SoS
You don't have SoSYou heal, They take damageYou heal, They heal
You have SoSYou take damage, They take damageYou take damage, They heal
Option 2: SoS happens before Vampire

Your Vampire attacks
They don't have SoSThey have SoS
You don't have SoSYou heal, They take damageYou take damage, They heal
You have SoSYou heal, They take damageYou take damage, They heal
In my opinion, option 1 makes more sense because both SoS are able to effect the same attack. In option 2 your SoS does not matter because it missed its turn before Vampire triggered.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: suxerz on September 21, 2011, 11:32:02 pm
..snip

Order is important for players too. However it is something that is more interesting to the players that want to know the rules of the game they are playing.
Imagine you had a Guardian Angel targeted both by the Lightning spell and Heal ability. Is its current hp 1 or 6? This depends on which happens first.

Vampire: "The damage dealt is returned to you as healing."
SoS: Swap Damage [to you] with Healing [to you]. [The to you is implied by the condition only affecting one player]

If SoS triggers before Vampire then your interpretation is correct.
Creature attacks, damage is swapped with healing, Vampire returns healing as damage
If Vampire triggers before SoS then your interpretation is incorrect.
Creature attacks, Vampire returns damage as healing, damage is swapped with healing

The second case occurs, therefore SoS triggers after Vampire has passed on the healing.
Event SequenceController of VampireController of SoS
AttacknothingDamage
VampireHealingDamage
SoSHealingHealing
Ugh.. I have to admit that your post make this even more confusing, Oldtree. Since I'm not entirely sure I get what you are saying, pardon me if this make little sense to you.

Referring to the highlighted sentence above, does this mean you believe the part "swap damage with healing" works on both fields?
If yes, wouldn't that means if I have SoS active, the damage from my own creatures, spells, etc will be inverted to heal to my opponent even he doesn't have SoS (which is clearly not happening now)?

If no, I might be missing something here since how can the opponent's vampire inflict damage to its owner without AM? I'm not being critical; it's just frustrating to me that I couldn't understand that particular point.  ;)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on September 21, 2011, 11:47:53 pm
@Suxerz
No.

Vampire returns damage/healing as healing/damage. If the Vampire effect would occur after the SoS effect then the Vampire would have healed the opponent (who had the SoS) and thus would pass back damage to the controller. However SoS triggers after Vampire instead of before it. This leads to the second case where the creature deals damage, vampire returns healing and then SoS (controlled by the defending player) triggers to swap the damage for healing.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Sewdri on September 22, 2011, 01:02:12 am
if what you guys are talking about is supposed to apply to creatures with the vampire ability, would it also apply to Siphon Life??? and my other question is that if you are playing your hand and then end your turn, how would the opponent activate the SoS before your vampires had finished attacking? it seems like it would be that these effects would only occur if the opponent had already played the SoS and never the other way around... in my opinion i think that an attacking vampire going against an opponent with a SoS already in play should have the same effect as a vampire that has been hit with antimatter, thus inverting the healing and damage for both players (damaging the owner and healing the opponent... now if an antimattered vampire attacked a player with a SoS out would it do damage??? i can't figure it out because my mind is all confused)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on September 22, 2011, 01:33:57 am
if what you guys are talking about is supposed to apply to creatures with the vampire ability, would it also apply to Siphon Life??? and my other question is that if you are playing your hand and then end your turn, how would the opponent activate the SoS before your vampires had finished attacking? it seems like it would be that these effects would only occur if the opponent had already played the SoS and never the other way around... in my opinion i think that an attacking vampire going against an opponent with a SoS already in play should have the same effect as a vampire that has been hit with antimatter, thus inverting the healing and damage for both players (damaging the owner and healing the opponent... now if an antimattered vampire attacked a player with a SoS out would it do damage??? i can't figure it out because my mind is all confused)
I was talking about the timing/layering of the effects that were triggered by the combat phase. Both Vampire and SoS were already in play however (as the game is now) during the combat the Vampire effect is triggered and resolved before the SoS effect is triggered and resolved.

As the game is now (and how it should stay IMO), The creature attacks, then vampire skill returns healing and finally SoS swaps the damage that would have been dealt for healing. (aka both players heal)
An antimatter'd Vampire would cause both players to take damage. The creature attacks, then vampire skill returns damage and finally SoS swaps the healing that would have been dealt for damage. (aka both players are damaged)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: mwely on September 22, 2011, 01:54:20 am
This stuff actually looks really cool.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Sewdri on September 22, 2011, 02:13:40 am
ah ok oldtrees, it's confusing but now i understand... i think that's a good way to deal with the healing/damage confusion also so that when someone is playing they don't get confused
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Hyroen on September 22, 2011, 08:28:24 pm
Love, love, loving the new backgrounds!

I still think :air Air backgrounds need a little more loving. Maybe clouds?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Aves on September 22, 2011, 11:17:47 pm
Much better!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Elite arbiter on September 23, 2011, 12:06:52 am
I read the majority of the thread and tried the beta 1.29, but since i couldn't find any comment on it and also that I cannot use SoS in the beta as well as hearing that it stacks akin to purify and poison, can I ask something based on the text of the cards?


If you use another SoS to stack upon the first, wouldn't the "cost" also be reversed? As in, playing a second while the first is in effect doesn't actually hurt you but heals you more just incase you didn't get enough. Personally I support the reducing your max hp concept, as well as a coding of it that would force it to lower your hp regardless of whether you actually have it on you or not. Can probably be done by throwing a little bit into the code to exclude SoS from its own reversal.

I love the new death color though although I appear to be alone on this. Not sure how I feel about some of the others, like dark for instance.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rosutosefi on September 23, 2011, 12:42:13 am
The cost won't be reversed.
They are available from the bazaar.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Bhlewos on September 23, 2011, 04:51:49 am
Just in case it helps with comparisons, here are the old and new card backgrounds side by side. It's not perfect since I used images from the card maker rather than the actual backgrounds, but hope it helps.

OLDNEW
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/BhlewosAQW/ElementsTheGame/entropyOld.png)(http://www.elementsthegame.com/bkgcard/entropy.jpg)
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/BhlewosAQW/ElementsTheGame/deathOld.png)(http://www.elementsthegame.com/bkgcard/death.jpg)
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/BhlewosAQW/ElementsTheGame/earthOld.png)(http://www.elementsthegame.com/bkgcard/earth.jpg)
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/BhlewosAQW/ElementsTheGame/lifeOld.png)(http://www.elementsthegame.com/bkgcard/life.jpg)
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/BhlewosAQW/ElementsTheGame/darknessOld.png)(http://www.elementsthegame.com/bkgcard/darkness.jpg)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: zanzarino on September 23, 2011, 05:00:16 am
Added to the "under development" page:
Shard of Void
Shard of Patience
Shard of Serendipity (inspired by the competition winner "Shard of Intuition")

This 3 new shards are not in the trainer yet.

Miracle reduces health to 1 hp if used with SoS.
AI does not commit suicide anymore using SoS.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on September 23, 2011, 05:10:09 am
Those 3 shards  :darkness :water :entropy look very interesting.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 23, 2011, 05:57:12 am
Interesting.

(http://i.imgur.com/3rJh6.png)(http://i.imgur.com/x8juT.png)(http://i.imgur.com/l1ccj.png)

Does Shard of Void deal damage as well if it can?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Elite arbiter on September 23, 2011, 06:10:10 am
The cost won't be reversed.
They are available from the bazaar.
I guess its simply my bad for taking for granted when I click "All Cards" I actually get all of the cards. Minor problem at best.

Also, new cards look interesting. Void can work well with a Drain Life theme, I'm seeing someone trying "Fractal Physalia" or "Fractal Ullitharid", and I can't help but feel serendipity will work wonders for a rainbow deck.

... I'm gonna try building that right now. Question though, does Shard of Patience Stack with itself? Ie, does having 3 make all your creatures gain +3/3, +9/9 in a flooded area?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 23, 2011, 06:20:23 am
First comments upon the shards:

Shard of Readiness will enable Time rush decks and amazingly common 4 turn wins against the AI. In my opinion this is bad, as it renders CC much more important: any deck without fast, reliable CC is going to be stomped hard by this rush. Denial doesn't really cut it either, due to SoR costing other quanta and the possibility to use novas.

Shard of Sacrifice is still outright broken, and the attempt to fix this with Shard of Patience is trying to patch a broken door with a new handle. Firstly, it isn't a true direct counter, it's a rather soft one. Secondly even if it WAS a direct counter it would run into the infamous rock-paper-scissor situation: either bring SoS, or SoP or any other deck. SoS beats every other deck which doesn't use SoP, and every deck beats a deck that uses SoP. Shard of Sacrifice needs a complete overhaul before entering the game unless it is meant to be banned from every single PvP event ever, including probably leagues.

Shard of Void seems a great shard at first (it reduces the power of Firestall, for one) until you realize the following:
- SoV is a permanent, thus subject to the heavy PC of Firestall (Deflagration is still a problem).
- SoV is a definite anti-stall, providing not only an alternate damage source but also reducing the power of healing. The metagame will be shifted towards rushes EVEN MORE (and I thought SoR was bad already for this).
- SoV costs other. Yes, of course, it's a shard. But my point is: you are essentially giving a better version of Poison to every element. REALLY? Poison stalls are strong (see Bonebolt, see Pandebonium, see PoisonDial...) but normally they require death. This enables a new version of poison stalls which works for EVERY ELEMENT. Sure, dark mark helps. Whatever, nobody will ever care, SoV is strong in any deck.

Shard of Patience is useless. First, see the above comments on SoS for the attempt at a direct counter (it IS an issue). Second, let's take a look at this card: what does it help?
You're holding back your creatures for one turn. Since the only reason you have to do that would be to activate the second effect of the card OR to prevent their death OR to prevent SoS healing. The SoS healing is factored above, now let's take a look at the rest. The effect sucks, as practically any Water attacker is better than a +1/+1 buff to every water creature. I mean, take a look at the Tsunami deck: nobody will ever play SoP there! An Abyss Crawler is as strong as a +1/+1 to SIX creatures, except in VERY marginal cases. The holding back is incredibly situational and useless in about every instance except VERY specific ones since you DON'T DO DAMAGE to the opponent that way. If you build the deck around creatures not doing damage with them is useless but so is the rest of the card! If you build a deck with attacking creatures you WANT them to attack! That's why Sundial stops the opponent's creatures.
All in all, SoP is a fail counter to SoS (which is in itself a pretty bad idea) AND a wasted card slot in every other instance.

Shard of Serendipity... I'm torn. It'll need some testing. There's one thing I know for sure though: if it WORKS, then it's essentially a "pay 3 random quanta, draw 3 cards" which is the ultimate rainbow rush card advantage ever. If it DOESN'T work, then you have an useless card sitting in the back of the metagame.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Sevs on September 23, 2011, 07:07:38 am
Shard of Serendipity

When it says draw up to 3 random cards the first will be  :entropy. I think testing will be needed but having a card in a Quantum tower SN speedbow seems a little OP. Imagine you have the ability to call up a SN(since they are pretty much the only  :entropy cards there) and 2 other cards. I think a 36 card speed bow with 6 of these would be able to put out its entire deck more reliably and faster then a normal 30 card speed bow.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 23, 2011, 07:22:12 am
Shard of Serendipity

When it says draw up to 3 random cards the first will be  :entropy. I think testing will be needed but having a card in a Quantum tower SN speedbow seems a little OP. Imagine you have the ability to call up a SN(since they are pretty much the only  :entropy cards there) and 2 other cards. I think a 36 card speed bow with 6 of these would be able to put out its entire deck more reliably and faster then a normal 30 card speed bow.
I believe it is intended to act as a kind of Fractal or Mindgate card-creation engine. That means a QT Speedbow will use it to draw 3 cards and probably play them. It's either a new Fate Egg or a new rush powerhouse, we'll test it soon enough.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on September 23, 2011, 07:30:03 am
Void: I already commented on this one in the individual thread when I saw it in my 'new unread threads', but basically it seems reasonable, although powerful, until you realize that it can stack like a pillar can.  This means that one of the disadvantages it would suffer if it came out now, i.e. blocking you from playing too many other permanents, no longer exists.  I'm not sure what the best solution to this would be; I'll let people try to work that one out.

Patience: I'm not sure if this is a permanent or a spell, but either way, it's pretty weak in my opinion.  It's useless outside of nonwater, except to prevent your creatures crashing into a fireshield/SoS, and if you want to do that, Sundial is better, and when upgraded is 'other' as well, with 0 cost instead of 3.

Serendipity: I love this card!  I love anything that gives card advantage, and this obviously does it.  It's clearly strongest in either entropy or rainbow decks.  It's also extremely fun, because it allows you to play with cards that you don't own or aren't using in your deck.  I think it should cost more to cast this card, like 5 or 6, but otherwise I would leave it as is, and think it would be a fun addition.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Sevs on September 23, 2011, 07:35:48 am
Mono Other is going to be a very decent strategy, Mark of darkness, 6 Shard of Void, 6 Shard of divitity, 6 Shard of Sacrifice. 6 of some other stalling shard and 6 Quantum towers.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Kuroaitou on September 23, 2011, 07:40:38 am
Mono Other is going to be a very decent strategy, Mark of darkness, 6 Shard of Void, 6 Shard of divitity, 6 Shard of Sacrifice. 6 of some other stalling shard and 6 Quantum towers.
That would be... well, a LOT of rares for a single deck. :P

That said, thank you Zanz for confirming that one of the shards was based off a card idea (i.e. - Shard of Intuition). Looks like I can finally dust off the 'How write a Reliquary article' book that's been sitting in the Curator libraries for months. :D
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 23, 2011, 07:51:33 am
Mono Other is going to be a very decent strategy, Mark of darkness, 6 Shard of Void, 6 Shard of divitity, 6 Shard of Sacrifice. 6 of some other stalling shard and 6 Quantum towers.
No QTs, I'd rather play Novas. Way faster start. Also, how could you forget SoG?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Sevs on September 23, 2011, 08:03:10 am
Mono Other is going to be a very decent strategy, Mark of darkness, 6 Shard of Void, 6 Shard of divitity, 6 Shard of Sacrifice. 6 of some other stalling shard and 6 Quantum towers.
No QTs, I'd rather play Novas. Way faster start. Also, how could you forget SoG?
because sos and sog dont mix
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on September 23, 2011, 09:15:21 am
Without banning Shards in Arena Deck Buliding this game has no sense. Sorry, but playing against 12 SoV is stupid and horrible...
Shard for Entropy with SuperNova also isn't so fine, when in Arena Player can have 12 SoSerendipity.

I don't want to know which Shard will be for fire... Probably next mega powerful card for the best element in game...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ralouf on September 23, 2011, 09:21:14 am
Shard of entropy is incredibly OP.. draw 3 for 3 random quanta ? humm..
Example : turn 1 :  2 pends SN shard I draw 3 including an other SN then shard draw 3 other SN SN + shard again : I have 8 quanta of each except entropy and 8 cards in hand, after that I play my whole hand.. hand that is with only 3 shards in the 16 firsts cards..
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 23, 2011, 09:26:00 am
Mono Other is going to be a very decent strategy, Mark of darkness, 6 Shard of Void, 6 Shard of divitity, 6 Shard of Sacrifice. 6 of some other stalling shard and 6 Quantum towers.
No QTs, I'd rather play Novas. Way faster start. Also, how could you forget SoG?
because sos and sog dont mix
Hm. That much is true. x) So. 6 Shard of Void, 6 Shard of Divinity, 6 Shard of Sacrifice, 4 Quantum Tower, 2 Protect Artifact and 6 Novas?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: oblivion1212 on September 23, 2011, 09:32:41 am
 :entropy shard.

by random, does it mean cards from your deck? or just plain random cards?

if it's plain random cards, you won't use it to rush... so.. ya, a bummer for people claiming  :entropy shard as OP...

drawing 3 cards from nowhere = excellent XD
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on September 23, 2011, 09:46:21 am
My understanding was the shard of serendipity draws random cards from all of elements, not just your deck.  You might get something you can effectively use, but you might get something like flooding and rustler, too :p
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 23, 2011, 09:55:54 am
My understanding was the shard of serendipity draws random cards from all of elements, not just your deck.  You might get something you can effectively use, but you might get something like flooding and rustler, too :p
Which is exactly why it is either excellent or absolutely useless. If the average number of useful cards is greater than the average number of useless ones, it's awesome. If it's not, it's useless. Fate Egg, anyone?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: MatrimKK on September 23, 2011, 10:31:38 am
My understanding was the shard of serendipity draws random cards from all of elements, not just your deck.  You might get something you can effectively use, but you might get something like flooding and rustler, too :p
Which is exactly why it is either excellent or absolutely useless. If the average number of useful cards is greater than the average number of useless ones, it's awesome. If it's not, it's useless. Fate Egg, anyone?
That kind of card advantage still has the power to be game breaking, even if occasionally you draw a rustler, flooding, or whatever you might consider to be a "dead" card.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on September 23, 2011, 12:44:55 pm
SoD gives bonus for Light +3 or +4 HP.
SoR gives bonus for Time + 6-9 attack each turn.
Sorry, but it isn't fair... SoD and SoG needs buff for Light and Life if this game want be fair. Maybe SoD should also purify HP status when mark is Light, or maybe it should heal Light Creatures... Now bonus for SoD and SoG comparing with others bonuses isn't so good.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: MatrimKK on September 23, 2011, 01:29:18 pm
SoD gives bonus for Light +3 or +4 HP.
SoR gives bonus for Time + 6-9 attack each turn.
Sorry, but it isn't fair... SoD and SoG needs buff for Light and Life if this game want be fair. Maybe SoD should also purify HP status when mark is Light, or maybe it should heal Light Creatures... Now bonus for SoD and SoG comparing with others bonuses isn't so good.
I was expecting a bigger nerf to SoG with a larger bonus to :life
With SoD I was expecting a larger bonus for :light
SoR... it makes sense... but it seems quite over powered in certain strategies and will likely see little use outside of this new trend and how it was used before. 
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: SnoWeb on September 23, 2011, 01:57:45 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/x8juT.png)So the negative effect is for all but the positive one is just for water creature.
So basically only water player will use this card. What is the interest of having a  :rainbow cost, then?
Water need more love, not more laugh ...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: loadquo on September 23, 2011, 02:16:46 pm
I did ask for something like shard of patience (sometimes you don't want to attack), but as it is, it just clutters up your hand if you don't currently need it. And sundial is just better for most decks.

A permanent that you could activate (preferably multiple times) when you need it would fill the same kind of niche as a shield (can be great against creature decks but useless against momentum or spell decks). So you might chuck a couple in your deck for pvp.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Hyroen on September 23, 2011, 05:44:14 pm
Might be a good time to just leave this little link right here...

Want new card art? (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,29727.0/topicseen.html)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Calindu on September 23, 2011, 06:08:01 pm
Might be a good time to just leave this little link right here...

Want new card art? (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,29727.0/topicseen.html)
Me wants.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Gillero on September 23, 2011, 06:26:06 pm
Nice version overall. I love new cards. They make a lot of decks possible!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: veemon293 on September 23, 2011, 06:35:34 pm
SoV looks sexy i cant wait to use it in my devourer stall.
by veemon293
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
7t6 7t6 7t6 7t6 7t6 7t6 7tb 7tc 7tc 7tc 7tc 7tc 7tc 80i 80i 80i 80i 80i 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 8pt
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on September 23, 2011, 07:24:25 pm
Might be a good time to just leave this little link right here...

Want new card art? (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,29727.0/topicseen.html)
And new background for Wyrm|Elite Wyrm... ;)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Hyroen on September 23, 2011, 08:07:50 pm
Maybe this would be nice for :air Air cards?

(http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/4946/airbackground.png)

Completely made by Pixlr and I. ^_^
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Shaliyah on September 23, 2011, 08:15:16 pm
I haven't been in beta yet bu I will very soon. Excited already. :)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on September 23, 2011, 10:01:43 pm
SoV looks sexy i cant wait to use it in my devourer stall.
by dragonsdemesne
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
7t6 7t6 7t6 7t6 7t6 7t6 7tb 7tc 7tc 7tc 7tc 7tc 7tc 80i 80i 80i 80i 80i 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 8pt

It suddenly occurs to me that Shard of Void is EXACTLY what Decay needs to not suck male genitalia.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Essence on September 23, 2011, 10:13:07 pm
Too bad FGs don't use Shards.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on September 23, 2011, 10:17:48 pm
Not yet... :)  Maybe they should!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: astraldragoon on September 23, 2011, 10:19:26 pm
 :earth background is ( if it stays like this ) AWESOME !!!!

and new shards to come! MY MY MY!
i love all the new shards void is a killer
patience is kind of hatred ( the card idea i submited, +1 and some syn with flooding )
serendipity is CRAZY!! all the  :entropy randomness and syn with  :time

in bref: AWESOME WORK
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on September 23, 2011, 10:43:49 pm
shard of patience seems as useless as flood, its a 1 time use for a +1/+1 to all water creatures and cant even attack that turn, so its more of a hindrance, so its a relatively small buff, and considering most people win long before they have 7 creatures out, the +3/+3 will most likely never occur.  so unless flooding is being changed, this card needs reworking too.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: zanzarino on September 24, 2011, 01:06:03 am
Shard of patience is now available in the beta bazaar as well, with some interesting modifications. Flooding now works on n>5 creatures (used to be n>7).

Have fun.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: artimies7 on September 24, 2011, 01:08:58 am
Thank you for the flooding buff.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Wizardcat on September 24, 2011, 01:18:53 am
The new Shard of Patience makes Dune Scorpion and Deathstalkers viable in Monos. I'm not sure how I feel about this.

(It now gives +1|+1 to non-Water creatures, +2|+2 to Water creatures, +4|+4 to Flooded Water creatures, for those who haven't seen the Beta, yet.)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: astraldragoon on September 24, 2011, 01:21:47 am
Shard of patience is now available in the beta bazaar as well, with some interesting modifications. Flooding now works on n>5 creatures (used to be n>7).

Have fun.
YEPPEEEEE lets test

edit: I LOVE earth background, sorry to say it so many time

edit2: i tested in a mono darkness with pack of vampires of course, i made some 8/6 vamps ( eclipse and 2SoP) so it mean each vamp make a hole betwin your life and u're opponent life of 16hp, damn it its huge! 8hp for you and -8hp for him, go with 2vamp and yeah u're on!

edit3: here is the deck i come with to test SoP, and for real once upon a time i loved play water ( of course ? ? ? are Sop )
by astraldragoon
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
6rv 6rv 6rv 6rv 6rv 6rv 71a 71a 71a 7gk 7gk 7gk 7gk 7gk 7gk 7gk 7gk 7gl 7gl 7gl 7gl 7gl 7gl 7gu 7gu 7gu 7gu 7h1 7h1 7h1 8pk


i also made a more 'rushy one' and here is the screen shot, for real in few turn, here is what you got with a mono blu
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Wizardcat on September 24, 2011, 01:28:18 am
Testing out BL+Fractal+SoP now...
---

Zanz, is there any chance we can keep the old Darkness border? Or at least darken the new one so the unupgraded Darkness cards aren't so... dull?

Edit: And now Earth's background is darker than Darkness'. *cries*
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on September 24, 2011, 01:36:28 am
The new Shard of Patience makes Dune Scorpion and Deathstalkers viable in Monos. I'm not sure how I feel about this.

(It now gives +1|+1 to non-Water creatures, +2|+2 to Water creatures, +4|+4 to Flooded Water creatures, for those who haven't seen the Beta, yet.)
Meh. It's a buff, so you have to draw them in the right order, and hopefully several Stalkers before piling Shards, and then hope they don't get rewound besides worrying about killing CC.

Now, Fractal on the other hand... all those PvP1 newbies who Fractal Photons may get a better reason to. And then there's Chrysaora..
Bahaha. Okay, after testing this is epic with Spark/Blight.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 24, 2011, 01:38:01 am
New images:

(http://i.imgur.com/hT0MJ.png)(http://i.imgur.com/BjQeN.png)(http://i.imgur.com/gGQs2.png)(http://i.imgur.com/AAE3F.png)

Much better.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: suxerz on September 24, 2011, 01:38:11 am
Fractal damsel + SoP +skyblitz! ugh... this is insane.

btw zanz, some non-rare Entropy cards have bands. Just a tiny display bug I think.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: astraldragoon on September 24, 2011, 01:59:22 am
i tryied a mono :aether
using fractal and ball lightning
i made few test and win all pretty quicky
here is a epic screen shot
( yea i lost xDD phase shield spam)

edit: tested a mono earth ( with the awesome background you know xD ) and then i had pretty cool warden able to kill ennemy creatures :D

edit2: ( and kind of a question too) i spotted that water and neutral creatures are immune, the only creature neutral i know is malignant, so is this a little spoil for some new cards ? ^^
its also on the actual card but i spotted it now
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ddevans96 on September 24, 2011, 02:50:31 am
...the edges of the field. Damn, I wondered how subtly he was going to buff flooding, and I think he nailed it there :)

EDIT:

edit2: ( and kind of a question too) i spotted that water and neutral creatures are immune, the only creature neutral i know is malignant, so is this a little spoil for some new cards ? ^^
its also on the actual card but i spotted it now
That wording has been on the card forever, so I doubt we'll be seeing anymore other creatures anytime soon.


Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: madbird20 on September 24, 2011, 02:57:00 am
First off, I am loving this new patch. I am overjoyed that an under-used card like Flooding, which I consider to be a very interesting card, is finally getting used. The same goes for SoP, which, imo, seemed rather UP before this change. Seeing these changes made me want to test the combol out, so I decided to do so. However, during the testing,  I ran into two things that puzzled me and I decided to come here for answers.

1. After noticing the afore-mentioned buff to SoP, I decided to try a Fractal Mind Flayer deck. I made one, went to AI3 to test it out, and then noticed that by playing multiple SoPs I could gain the damage from extra SoP's, and still only wait 1 turn for the creatures to 'revive'. While this is pretty good, I was wondering if it was intentional?

2. Why was SoS given to AI with healing? I was testing the above SoP deck and I had 2hp, was about to be finished by AI's Owl's Eye, when BANG, I won. I was puzzled by this, wondering why I had won. Then I realized that the AI had multiple Empathic Bond's in play, along with a FFQ and a couple of other creatures. It had literally healed itself to death. So I was wondering why that particular AI had been given SoS, when it would be so easy for it to commit suicide?

Thanks in advance for any answers :)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Metahater on September 24, 2011, 03:14:07 am
I'm laso a huge fan of this new patch. SoS is looking a bit more balanced than a few days agi as well. It's still pretty strong, but it's not totally busted like it was before.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Malignant on September 24, 2011, 04:05:36 am
(http://i.imgur.com/E7gmi.png)

Shard ofUnupped CodeUpped Code
Divinity4t66rm
Gratitude4t76rn
Readiness4ta6rq
Sacrifice4td6rt
Void4te6ru
Patience4tf6rv
Serendipity4tg6s0
The Serendipity in the image ain't 4tg/6s0. *The Serendipity I have is glitchy.* The real Serendipity, turns into Relic in the Spins.

*Don't understand?
(http://i.imgur.com/y0SOL.png)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Jocko on September 24, 2011, 04:07:36 am
H4xx00r!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Bhlewos on September 24, 2011, 05:00:45 am
SoP is growing on me, but I'm still wary of SoS (Sacrifice). Haven't tried Serendipity and Void out yet.

EDIT: And I LOVE LOVE LOVE the Flooding buff. Seeing the field surrounded by water...simply beautiful.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Jocko on September 24, 2011, 05:02:00 am
Those aren't available yet. Obtainable through custom AI, but with no effect yet. (Well, i believe that playing Void currently acts as SoS)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Bhlewos on September 24, 2011, 05:25:36 am
Well that explains a lot. I tried facing an SoV AI3 and was utterly confused until I visited chat. xD
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: EmeraldTiger on September 24, 2011, 06:03:46 am
If an idea for remaining shards has not come to mind yet, may I recommend a Defense buff of some kind for :earth.
 :fire more destruction or a weapon buff. :air some how use the freedom of movement theme.
 :gravity a mass or density based idea might be good.
 :aether a new theme is needed here, because in CI&A I think we have been doing the same basic things repeatedly that are already in game.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 24, 2011, 06:15:38 am
:/ Fractal Ball Lightning worries me a bit. It feels like the game is turning into a blitzkrieg.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Tiko on September 24, 2011, 06:16:50 am
:fire more destruction or a weapon buff.
Seriously? That'd be the very last thing Fire would need..
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rember on September 24, 2011, 07:07:38 am
:/ Fractal Ball Lightning worries me a bit. It feels like the game is turning into a blitzkrieg.
Hmm? Blitztal has been around since, well, blitz and it can get 3tk which a SoP deck just won't do.

I'm loving SoSerendipity/Void, I see SoSacrifice hasn't been changed this update, I hope this doesn't mean it's going live in it's current form.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 24, 2011, 07:28:18 am
:/ Fractal Ball Lightning worries me a bit. It feels like the game is turning into a blitzkrieg.
Hmm? Blitztal has been around since, well, blitz and it can get 3tk which a SoP deck just won't do.

I'm loving SoSerendipity/Void, I see SoSacrifice hasn't been changed this update, I hope this doesn't mean it's going live in it's current form.
It doesn't have the same explosive power of a blitz deck, but it has A LOT more staying power. The only thing that can stop a free 6/1 fractallable creature is mass CC...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on September 24, 2011, 11:56:13 am
1. After noticing the afore-mentioned buff to SoP, I decided to try a Fractal Mind Flayer deck. I made one, went to AI3 to test it out, and then noticed that by playing multiple SoPs I could gain the damage from extra SoP's, and still only wait 1 turn for the creatures to 'revive'. While this is pretty good, I was wondering if it was intentional?
It seems intentional that the delay isn't cumulative, as the only special case where it is cumulative is with Warden.

2. Why was SoS given to AI with healing? I was testing the above SoP deck and I had 2hp, was about to be finished by AI's Owl's Eye, when BANG, I won. I was puzzled by this, wondering why I had won. Then I realized that the AI had multiple Empathic Bond's in play, along with a FFQ and a couple of other creatures. It had literally healed itself to death. So I was wondering why that particular AI had been given SoS, when it would be so easy for it to commit suicide?
All AI are given the new cards in Beta to see how they use it and thus spot unintended behaviour and bugs.

:/ Fractal Ball Lightning worries me a bit. It feels like the game is turning into a blitzkrieg.
Hmm? Blitztal has been around since, well, blitz and it can get 3tk which a SoP deck just won't do.

I'm loving SoSerendipity/Void, I see SoSacrifice hasn't been changed this update, I hope this doesn't mean it's going live in it's current form.
It doesn't have the same explosive power of a blitz deck, but it has A LOT more staying power. The only thing that can stop a free 6/1 fractallable creature is mass CC...
More importantly, it scales in damage like a Destroyer rush. You can have 80 damage per turn out by turn 7 (or faster if lucky). Luckily, you won't have done any more damage on the previous turns unless you add it to the deck (such as a weapon. I actually like Dirk with Death mark), but often you can Fractal again and actually achieve a OTK.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: grindpower on September 24, 2011, 12:21:02 pm
Is this a glitch? Some Entropy cards get 2 bands behind the name when they're not rare.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on September 24, 2011, 12:39:26 pm
Yes, it appears to be a visual bug. The first line of unupped Entropy cards have bands on them in Beta.. sometimes.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Jappert on September 24, 2011, 12:50:30 pm
I love the bands, way better then the coloured names!
I also love the new backgrounds. Earth is a bit to dark for my taste, but still looks awesome, much smoother.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ScaredGuy on September 24, 2011, 01:09:28 pm
I think the new backgrounds are fantastic, the unupped death one is my favorite.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Fluffy Ninja on September 24, 2011, 01:21:21 pm
Im liking the look of these backgrounds, everything is lookinng fantastic
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: hendrydext on September 24, 2011, 01:23:26 pm
Zanz, flooding buff is not the solution.

First, flooding with only 5 creatures on the field ruins all the creativity of mass creature decks such as pharaoh, firefly, mitosis, fractaling, graveyard combo, emphatic bond combo.
Plus, it is not only ruining, but also makes a gigantic additional shield.. So, it is like second shield.. works better than gravity shield which only block enemy creature's attack, but also kill enemy creatures, like pandemonium or fire storm effect..
Then, it is very super duper cheap..
Then, it is only works for enemy creature (if your deck was water). Water creatures in players field not affected.. Ridiculous effects..
Then, make it combo with Shard of Patience, make it more more dangerous.. (but flooding can work alone which is ridiculous also).

Zanz.. Think about it... It make more players tend to build only a single creature in their field to win, such as:
deathstalker+unstoppable+adrealine+Quint Essence..
Which is ridiculous deck i have found in many pvp, and make me sick..

Think about it zanz.
Make flooding work for 5 creature will make your elements the game ruins.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ddevans96 on September 24, 2011, 02:32:16 pm
It flooded all but 7 before and it was widely considered one of the most underpowered cards in the game. The difference between 7 and 5 is subtle enough that it only affects some decks.

If you have a deck with few, no, or water creatures, flooding does basically nothing to you. Any other deck is weakened at least moderately. That is how flooding has always worked. Now it affects certain decks with a fairly good amount of creatures as well. As I said, it's a fairly subtle buff in this regard.

Then you mentioned SoP. Remember that you have to get a 6th creature onto the field for it to get the extra bonus, which either requires a stall with tons of creatures or a deck that can produce more creatures. And your creatures are delayed for one turn, giving your opponent time to adapt.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: hendrydext on September 24, 2011, 03:31:23 pm
It flooded all but 7 before and it was widely considered one of the most underpowered cards in the game. The difference between 7 and 5 is subtle enough that it only affects some decks.

If you have a deck with few, no, or water creatures, flooding does basically nothing to you. Any other deck is weakened at least moderately. That is how flooding has always worked. Now it affects certain decks with a fairly good amount of creatures as well. As I said, it's a fairly subtle buff in this regard.

Then you mentioned SoP. Remember that you have to get a 6th creature onto the field for it to get the extra bonus, which either requires a stall with tons of creatures or a deck that can produce more creatures. And your creatures are delayed for one turn, giving your opponent time to adapt.
Yes, i agree with you saying that flooding is underpowered before. So, it should be changed.
I also agree if flooding sometimes affect nothing at all (make it stupid to play it in early game).

Maybe, now I do agree with this buff.
This will become one of my favorite stalling deck... (flooding + permafrost)  :D
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on September 24, 2011, 03:58:34 pm
Think about it zanz.
Make flooding work for 5 creature will make your elements the game ruins.
I can agree with You. I think that buffing Flooding is important, but this buff isn't a good way to solve problem. For me Flooding is very good chance to nerf :fire element. Fire as only one element can damage Flooding as mono (steal do nothing). So we should make a bonus, which will be problem for Fire, not for FQ, Faraon etc.
In real life water destroy fire. Maybe damage from fire cards (when flooding come) should be halved? Or gives 0/-3 for all fire cards in game? This will be better for game than thinner field.

Or maybe HP status should be also underwater and then FireLance do nothing ;)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ddevans96 on September 24, 2011, 04:14:07 pm
Steal in a mono does destroy flooding, as a mono-darkness has no :water quanta to absorb. Entropy also has PC in a mono through Butterfly Effect, and Pulverizer's ability can be run off of mark and pendulums, allowing it to also be a technical mono.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on September 24, 2011, 04:29:40 pm
Steal in a mono does destroy flooding, as a mono-darkness has no :water quanta to absorb. Entropy also has PC in a mono through Butterfly Effect, and Pulverizer's ability can be run off of mark and pendulums, allowing it to also be a technical mono.
Ok, You are right with Steal - my mistake ;)
But I still think, that buff Flooding should hurt more Fire, not all elements. This buff is a big nerf for Air (which is poor element), because Air has got a lot of small creatures + FQ. So it isn't good way, especially when Air hasn't got PC.
For growthing Destroyers or Dragons 15/2 Flooding still do nothing...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ScaredGuy on September 24, 2011, 04:31:39 pm
Steal in a mono does destroy flooding, as a mono-darkness has no :water quanta to absorb. Entropy also has PC in a mono through Butterfly Effect, and Pulverizer's ability can be run off of mark and pendulums, allowing it to also be a technical mono.
Ok, You are right with Steal - my mistake ;)
But I still think, that buff Flooding should hurt more Fire, not all elements. This buff is a big nerf for Air (which is poor element), because Air has got a lot of small creatures + FQ. So it isn't good way, especially when Air hasn't got PC.
For growthing Destroyers or Dragons 15/2 Flooding still do nothing...
As much as I agree with you on the air thing, I don't think there should be any cards that specifically counter a certain element.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Aves on September 24, 2011, 05:17:11 pm
You're forgetting Holy Flash, though I agree with the sentiment.
Also, I'm not seeing how the flooding buff is disproportionately effective against air.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on September 24, 2011, 05:44:21 pm
You're forgetting Holy Flash, though I agree with the sentiment.
Also, I'm not seeing how the flooding buff is disproportionately effective against air.
:air (and  :life) has got a lot of small creatures. Small creatures = You need more creatures to make big damage. What is more,  :air has got Damsefly, which block position 1-5. In :fire or :gravity You haven't got this problem, because You can have easily less creatures, but with bigger attack (Accerelation, Catapult, Growthing fire creatures, 15/2 Dragon or Fire Lance). In fire decks, You can also use Immolation (to destroy for example Ash Eater and get 9 :fire and 11 :rainbow). In Air it isn't so easy and cheap as in fire (and killing our creature didn't add 20 quantum as in fire...)
So this change really hurts weak Air Element and Life. It do nothing for Fire, Gravity and probably Aether (so it do nothing for the best elements, and hurts weaker).
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on September 24, 2011, 06:17:36 pm
You're forgetting Holy Flash, though I agree with the sentiment.
Also, I'm not seeing how the flooding buff is disproportionately effective against air.
:air (and  :life) has got a lot of small creatures. Small creatures = You need more creatures to make big damage. What is more,  :air has got Damsefly, which block position 1-5. In :fire or :gravity You haven't got this problem, because You can have easily less creatures, but with bigger attack (Accerelation, Catapult, Growthing fire creatures, 15/2 Dragon or Fire Lance). In fire decks, You can also use Immolation (to destroy for example Ash Eater and get 9 :fire and 11 :rainbow). In Air it isn't so easy and cheap as in fire (and killing our creature didn't add 20 quantum as in fire...)
So this change really hurts weak Air Element and Life. It do nothing for Fire, Gravity and probably Aether (so it do nothing for the best elements, and hurts weaker).
Air also has Unstable Gas and thus does not need creatures to beat Flooding.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Essence on September 24, 2011, 06:44:02 pm
go counter-guru OT! 8)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Aves on September 24, 2011, 06:46:21 pm
You're forgetting Holy Flash, though I agree with the sentiment.
Also, I'm not seeing how the flooding buff is disproportionately effective against air.
:air (and  :life) has got a lot of small creatures. Small creatures = You need more creatures to make big damage. What is more,  :air has got Damsefly, which block position 1-5. In :fire or :gravity You haven't got this problem, because You can have easily less creatures, but with bigger attack (Accerelation, Catapult, Growthing fire creatures, 15/2 Dragon or Fire Lance). In fire decks, You can also use Immolation (to destroy for example Ash Eater and get 9 :fire and 11 :rainbow). In Air it isn't so easy and cheap as in fire (and killing our creature didn't add 20 quantum as in fire...)
So this change really hurts weak Air Element and Life. It do nothing for Fire, Gravity and probably Aether (so it do nothing for the best elements, and hurts weaker).
Air has small creatures. Every single element has small creatures. They're not necessarily used. For example, I would never put damselflies in my mono-air deck. (admittedly, mono-air isn't too great, in my opinion) Flooding isn't a big nerf to mono-air or life. It's a big nerf to creature spam, which is perfectly acceptable- there aren't a lot of ways to deal with creature spam (mass CC isn't used often). In fact, if you discount the new shard's buff to water creatures you could argue that flooding is still UP- it doesn't really do much against the lava destroyer on turn 1.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on September 24, 2011, 07:42:23 pm
Quote
It's a big nerf to creature spam, which is perfectly acceptable
Ok, but in  :fire :aether or  :gravity You haven't got creature spam. In  :air or  :life decks You have it, because it is specific for this elements. Air and Life has got fast, small and cheap creatures and they need more space to game. So it is big nerf for this Elements in my opinion.

Air also has Unstable Gas and thus does not need creatures to beat Flooding.
You need Fire to Unstable Gas. All duos with Fire can beat Flooding (Explosion), so this argument isn't so good for me. Mono Air/Life or a lot of duos with Air/Life will have big problems now. Do we really need nerf Air and Life?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on September 24, 2011, 07:51:04 pm
Quote
It's a big nerf to creature spam, which is perfectly acceptable
Ok, but in  :fire :aether or  :gravity You haven't got creature spam. In  :air or  :life decks You have it, because it is specific for this elements. Air and Life has got fast, small and cheap creatures and they need more space to game. So it is big nerf for this Elements in my opinion.

Air also has Unstable Gas and thus does not need creatures to beat Flooding.
You need Fire to Unstable Gas. All duos with Fire can beat Flooding (Explosion), so this argument isn't so good for me. Mono Air/Life or a lot of duos with Air/Life will have big problems now. Do we really need nerf Air and Life?
Both  :air and  :life also have good dragons. Also see Adrenaline from Life which effectively increases there non flooded spots by 3 per adrenaline Firefly/Horned Frog. While were at it lets take a look at Skyblitz which doubles the atk for 1 turn (x4 with dive).  :air :life has lots of ways to evade a Flooding defense.

There do exist defensive measures that do nerf Elements or Duo combinations. (Wings vs mono Earth quanta) However Flooding is not such a measure.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on September 24, 2011, 08:04:03 pm
Quote
It's a big nerf to creature spam, which is perfectly acceptable
Ok, but in  :fire :aether or  :gravity You haven't got creature spam. In  :air or  :life decks You have it, because it is specific for this elements. Air and Life has got fast, small and cheap creatures and they need more space to game. So it is big nerf for this Elements in my opinion.

Air also has Unstable Gas and thus does not need creatures to beat Flooding.
You need Fire to Unstable Gas. All duos with Fire can beat Flooding (Explosion), so this argument isn't so good for me. Mono Air/Life or a lot of duos with Air/Life will have big problems now. Do we really need nerf Air and Life?
Both  :air and  :life also have good dragons. Also see Adrenaline from Life which effectively increases there non flooded spots by 3 per adrenaline Firefly/Horned Frog. While were at it lets take a look at Skyblitz which doubles the atk for 1 turn (x4 with dive).  :air :life has lots of ways to evade a Flooding defense.
I don't want to say, that beat opponent with Air or Life is impossible. I only said, that now it is more difficult.
One simple question - which color will have bigger problem with this buffing Flooding? Fire (with the best PC, growthing creatures, Fire Lances) or Air/Life (without PC, with a lot small creatures)?

I understand change when Fire/Entropy/etc. decks will have bigger problems, but why Air and Life? It isn't fair, especially for Air which is one of the worst Elements (with Water) in game. Have You ever seen Air deck as the best in Arena? We have only Fire/Fire/Fire/Rainbow/Fire/Fire/Dark/Fire/GoP+Nightmare. This Shard makes bigger difference between the best and the weakness elements. One simple change - HP underwater (untargetable for FireLance, Shockwave, Lighting) or maybe protecting permaments in both sides while Flooding is in game instead n>5 solve this problem.

I know that we all want to see other elements weaker, when we using Fire/Rainbow decks. I also play Rainbow, but I want to see fine decks with other Elements. So I want to see better bonus in Shards for Life, Light and really powerful Shard for Air. That's all ;)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on September 24, 2011, 08:40:52 pm
Quote
It's a big nerf to creature spam, which is perfectly acceptable
Ok, but in  :fire :aether or  :gravity You haven't got creature spam. In  :air or  :life decks You have it, because it is specific for this elements. Air and Life has got fast, small and cheap creatures and they need more space to game. So it is big nerf for this Elements in my opinion.

Air also has Unstable Gas and thus does not need creatures to beat Flooding.
You need Fire to Unstable Gas. All duos with Fire can beat Flooding (Explosion), so this argument isn't so good for me. Mono Air/Life or a lot of duos with Air/Life will have big problems now. Do we really need nerf Air and Life?
Both  :air and  :life also have good dragons. Also see Adrenaline from Life which effectively increases there non flooded spots by 3 per adrenaline Firefly/Horned Frog. While were at it lets take a look at Skyblitz which doubles the atk for 1 turn (x4 with dive).  :air :life has lots of ways to evade a Flooding defense.
I don't want to say, that beat opponent with Air or Life is impossible. I only said, that now it is more difficult.
One simply question - which color will have bigger problem with this buffing Flooding? Fire (with the best PC, growthing creatures, Fire Lances) or Air/Life (without PC, with a lot small creatures)?

I understand change when Fire/Entropy/etc. decks will have bigger problems, but why Air and Life? It isn't fair, especially for Air which is one of the worst Elements (with Water) in game. Have You ever seen Air deck as the best in Arena? We have only Fire/Fire/Fire/Rainbow/Fire/Fire/Dark/Fire/GoP+Nightmare. This Shard makes bigger difference between the best and the weakness elements. One simple change - HP underwater (untargetable for FireLance, Shockwave, Lighting) or maybe protecting permaments in both sides while Flooding is in game instead n>5 solve this problem.

I know that we all want to see other elements weaker, when we using Fire/Rainbow decks. I also play Rainbow, but I want to see fine decks with other Elements. So I want to see better bonus in Shards for Life, Light and really powerful Shard for Air. That's all ;)
First, Adrenaline Firefly (12|2 generate  :light :light :light :light) is not a small creature.

Do you see every buff as a zero sum game? Water had a UP card that was not able to contribute to the metagame. Now that card can contribute. It has not knocked any other cards to incompetency in the process. This is improvement. Part of Fire's dominance is due to it having a complete set of Offense, Defense and Evasion/Counterdefense. Flooding is a Defense and all elements already have Evasion/Counterdefense to it. This means the buff has no net negative effects. What you want is for Air Life and Water to be buffed to match Fire. This is a first step in that direction that would not fall into the dreaded Fire dominated Rock Paper Scissors (Fire, Counter Fire, Vulnerable to Fire).

I would suggest you study the theoretical and existing methods of Evasion/Counterdefense. You seem to be overlooking many of these measures when evaluating the impact of Defensive measures.

It would make a lot more sense for a new card to be added that allows Water to defend against Direct damage than for Flooding to be overcomplicated to that end. Alternatively Water's current defense against Direct damage (Purify) could be buffed by being made into a permanent with a skill that adds Regeneration counters.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on September 24, 2011, 09:02:22 pm
Quote
It's a big nerf to creature spam, which is perfectly acceptable
Ok, but in  :fire :aether or  :gravity You haven't got creature spam. In  :air or  :life decks You have it, because it is specific for this elements. Air and Life has got fast, small and cheap creatures and they need more space to game. So it is big nerf for this Elements in my opinion.

Air also has Unstable Gas and thus does not need creatures to beat Flooding.
You need Fire to Unstable Gas. All duos with Fire can beat Flooding (Explosion), so this argument isn't so good for me. Mono Air/Life or a lot of duos with Air/Life will have big problems now. Do we really need nerf Air and Life?
Both  :air and  :life also have good dragons. Also see Adrenaline from Life which effectively increases there non flooded spots by 3 per adrenaline Firefly/Horned Frog. While were at it lets take a look at Skyblitz which doubles the atk for 1 turn (x4 with dive).  :air :life has lots of ways to evade a Flooding defense.
I don't want to say, that beat opponent with Air or Life is impossible. I only said, that now it is more difficult.
One simply question - which color will have bigger problem with this buffing Flooding? Fire (with the best PC, growthing creatures, Fire Lances) or Air/Life (without PC, with a lot small creatures)?

I understand change when Fire/Entropy/etc. decks will have bigger problems, but why Air and Life? It isn't fair, especially for Air which is one of the worst Elements (with Water) in game. Have You ever seen Air deck as the best in Arena? We have only Fire/Fire/Fire/Rainbow/Fire/Fire/Dark/Fire/GoP+Nightmare. This Shard makes bigger difference between the best and the weakness elements. One simple change - HP underwater (untargetable for FireLance, Shockwave, Lighting) or maybe protecting permaments in both sides while Flooding is in game instead n>5 solve this problem.

I know that we all want to see other elements weaker, when we using Fire/Rainbow decks. I also play Rainbow, but I want to see fine decks with other Elements. So I want to see better bonus in Shards for Life, Light and really powerful Shard for Air. That's all ;)
First Adrenaline Firefly (12|2 generate  :light :light :light :light) is not a small creature.

Do you see every buff as a zero sum game? Water had a UP card that was not able to contribute to the metagame. Now that card can contribute. It has not knocked any other cards to incompetency in the process. This is improvement. Part of Fire's dominance is due to it having a complete set of Offense, Defense and Evasion/Counterdefense. Flooding is a Defense and all elements already have Evasion/Counterdefense to it. This means the buff has no net negative effects. What you want is for Air Life and Water to be buffed to match Fire. This is a first step in that direction.

I would suggest you study the theoretical and existing methods of Evasion/Counterdefense. You seem to be overlooking many of these measures when evaluating the impact of Defensive measures.

It would make a lot more sense for a new card to be added that allows Water to defend against Direct damage than for Flooding to be overcomplicated to that end. Alternatively Water's current defense against Direct damage (Purify) could be buffed by being made into a permanent with a skill that adds Regeneration counters.
Air hasn't got Adrenaline, but it doesn't matter. I don't want to be an advocate of Air or Life. You think that this is good, no problem for me :) We can still have 2-3 dominated colours, I accepted this.
I don't negate buff for Flooding because it is good idea. I think only that we can do better, without small*/big* (* choose what You want) nerfing Air/Life when we have possibility of nerf Fire (Flooding is a water card, so it should influence on Fire). There will be much more interesting games, when Water will have advantage in games against Fire decks (which are the most popular). That's all :)

The good news is that Water after this changes will be much better ;) We are waiting for other shards (and maybe also buffs cards), then our discuss will be more concrete.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: n00b on September 24, 2011, 10:48:45 pm
I don't know if this has been said already, so if it has, someone can tell me and I'll delete this post. Anywho, it seems to be that almost all of the unupped Entropy cards have the two-mark-things by them, and the unupped are normal and such. Just thought that this'd be the place to post that :P
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: zanzarino on September 24, 2011, 10:55:03 pm
Shard of void now available in beta.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on September 24, 2011, 11:09:44 pm
Mkay, the animation for Void is a bit ugly with that green text and huge text when it has its effect, but it's pretty effective. One thing to note when using it: any physical damage that's less than the damage you will do with SoV has no effect. For instance, I'm hitting with a Vampire right now for 4 damage, but doing 12 damage per turn with Voids. Since the max HP is lowered, the Vamp damage is swallowed by the reduction of max HP x)

Also, SoV can't kill.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: GG on September 24, 2011, 11:15:04 pm
Shard of Void is now up in the beta too!


Also... unmentioned in the original post..


- Flooding | Inundation got a graphics change and BUFFED. Now covers the edges of the middle row (6 and 7th creature spots) as well.

- Max HP indicator added next to the HP bars
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: zanzarino on September 24, 2011, 11:20:04 pm
Oh lol, I forgot to remove the max hp number. I added it to test the shard; I am going to fix it with the next patch.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rutarete on September 24, 2011, 11:24:15 pm
Are there going to be fortunes for the Shards once the whole set is done?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ddevans96 on September 24, 2011, 11:29:01 pm
Oh lol, I forgot to remove the max hp number. I added it to test the shard; I am going to fix it with the next patch.
Aw, I was hoping it was intentional. Math it is then!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: suxerz on September 24, 2011, 11:34:26 pm
Yeah, the max HP indicator is pretty handy.

I'm pretty sure this is a bug - when AI plays SoV, it will reduce his own max HP.  (this is with custom AI, btw) >.<
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rember on September 25, 2011, 12:42:17 am
Oh lol, I forgot to remove the max hp number. I added it to test the shard; I am going to fix it with the next patch.
Leave it IMO, it's nice.

Still, I wonder what AI is going to get to compensate for all of these shards. FGs are a joke now and the lower AIs are just trash with these shards, and there's still more to come. Arena will also be absolutely awful for anyone playing against it. Instead of the top 10 - 25 decks running around with 0 losses it will be the top 100 - 250 after a month when everyone has 12 of every shard.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 25, 2011, 01:03:22 am
(http://i.imgur.com/TcE4h.png)(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/Upgrade.png)(http://i.imgur.com/oEi9N.png)

Looks nice. Time to test it.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bripod on September 25, 2011, 02:25:19 am
PLEASE LEAVE THE MAX HP COUNTER!!!

It's awesome!!!  ;D
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: hendrydext on September 25, 2011, 03:14:43 am
is SoV is a bit overpowered?

I feel bad about it.. SoV will create a deck with "last hit kill". Just wait your opp hp to decrease to certain amount, then KabooM., such as spamming dragon blitz... It means that playing SoV is better than putting your creature on the field, because putting your creature on the field is risky..
It also means that there should be more permanent control..!! (why only deflag, steal, and pulvy... So many great Permanent cards goes to the field with less weakness and also cheap...)

I also think that there is no problem if flooding is only last for 3/4 turns rather than "permanently forever"..
And, the cost of deflag/explosion should be more!! Not fair if it is only 2/1 cost. 3/2 is better.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: markilleruk on September 25, 2011, 03:41:55 am
SoV doesn't lower player HP when used by AI - IE is broken when used by AI

Also +1 for keep maxHP on!

[edit - why dosnt SoV kill?]

[edit 2 - Ha ha, just noticed that SoV always targets the AI HP. so when they play it it kills THEM not you!]
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 25, 2011, 03:49:41 am
I'm also a fan of keeping the max HP number.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rosutosefi on September 25, 2011, 03:51:50 am
Decay stole my SoV and kept damaging himself.  :))
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: markilleruk on September 25, 2011, 04:34:14 am
Cant wait til we get these cards in the main game - I'm gonna be grinding whatever decks have SoS til i drop
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: zanzarino on September 25, 2011, 05:47:35 am
Shard of Serendipity also available in beta

(fixed AI SoV bugs)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 25, 2011, 05:54:28 am
(http://i.imgur.com/8kDL7.png)(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/Upgrade.png)(http://i.imgur.com/zBHvU.png)

Time to test.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 25, 2011, 05:55:21 am
I'm still unsure about Void. I don't know if a strong DoT option for every element is good. I think having it reduced to 1 vile damage for non-Darkness marks and keeping 3 for Darkness marks will still see it used, but limit its potential for non-Darkness Mark decks (keeping DoT out of the hands of some potential power-stalls). The same goes for Shard of Gratitude: its healing for non-Life marks should really be reduced by another 1 point.

I still protest on Shard of Readiness' limited usability and most importantly because it's Not Working As (I Had) Intended - it will NOT be used for its primary effect, it will be used as an in-element Adrenaline for Time, which is not unique and rather underwhelming - (oh, and for creating yet another terribly fast deck).
I still share the general feeling that Shard of Sacrifice is OP to the core. It should have a meaningful cost, and quite possibly be reduced to one turn (it still means, under current ruling, that barring the VERY few counters you are gaining two turns of safety - one of invulnerability, one thanks to the healing you got -, just like the old Sundial).
I believe Shard of Patience will change a bit the game, but I think it's a good addition overall (still resenting the big loss of flavor this game will have due to the generic other-costing shard cards and their availability to every element, but eh). I believe Shard of Divinity could use a little more difference in effectiveness for Light Mark users (4 hp doesn't really cut it).

For the rest of the shards, we'll see.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 25, 2011, 05:58:22 am
Yay, Max HP label has been kept!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Malignant on September 25, 2011, 05:58:26 am
Upped Shard of Serendipity, y u give me upped cards?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: zanzarino on September 25, 2011, 06:09:41 am
Upped Shard of Serendipity, y u give me upped cards?
Patchin'
Edit: done.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Malignant on September 25, 2011, 06:55:34 am
(http://i.imgur.com/CoMhU.png)

Translucent cards! Wait, why do I need to discard?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bripod on September 25, 2011, 07:00:56 am
Interesting to say the least...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on September 25, 2011, 07:55:33 am
This is just laziness talking, but could you possibly just add the cards to the button that gives all cards, this way i don't have to first buy them, then upgrade them.  :)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Kamietsu on September 25, 2011, 08:28:34 am
This is just laziness talking, but could you possibly just add the cards to the button that gives all cards, this way i don't have to first buy them, then upgrade them.  :)
Patience grasshoppah. New cards never get the all cards treatment for awhile.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: hendrydext on September 25, 2011, 09:10:19 am
I still protest on Shard of Readiness' limited usability and most importantly because it's Not Working As (I Had) Intended - it will NOT be used for its primary effect, it will be used as an in-element Adrenaline for Time, which is not unique and rather underwhelming - (oh, and for creating yet another terribly fast deck).
I agree with this. It is like adrenaline card for Time. SoR make big advantage to Time.. In other side, SoG never give more advantages to Life..

I still share the general feeling that Shard of Sacrifice is OP to the core. It should have a meaningful cost, and quite possibly be reduced to one turn (it still means, under current ruling, that barring the VERY few counters you are gaining two turns of safety - one of invulnerability, one thanks to the healing you got -, just like the old Sundial).
i agree again... I hate seeing enemy playing that and chaining that means 12 turns i cannot do anything good against that..
If it is used in arena, using 12 of that means 24 turns u cannot do anything good..
Means also that better not playing any creatures in the field, making the games very boring...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 25, 2011, 09:18:32 am
Did someone say meaningful cost for SoS?

Still my favourite suggestion.

(http://i.imgur.com/Vwv9T.png)

The benefit to :death is more subtle, and it's less OP.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on September 25, 2011, 09:19:40 am
clicking on a card serendipity is giving you while the process is not quite over is glitchy.  you dont get all the cards.  and new cards you draw dont show up.  it is similar to the other card drawing glitch.  and i keep modifying this as i learn more, apparently the cards are still there, so it is just a visual glitch and not quite like the other card drawing glitch.

@SoS
healing cards should be changed so you can target either player.  obviously a player playing SoS' wont be packing a lot of healing cards and even still, they wont use them if they have an SoS in play, so the only healing you can give to them is from your anti mattered creatures, but anti mattering your creatures is not the smartest thing to do since SoS' effect is limited.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: TheManuz on September 25, 2011, 10:49:18 am
Just a few feedbacks from me:
New :earth background is AWESOME, and far different from :time (finally).
And, please, keep max HP counter!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 25, 2011, 12:27:05 pm
Hmm ... :earth textures.

Before:

(http://i.imgur.com/xaEal.png)

After:

(http://i.imgur.com/9FkIf.png)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rosutosefi on September 25, 2011, 12:30:23 pm
@SoS
healing cards should be changed so you can target either player.  obviously a player playing SoS' wont be packing a lot of healing cards and even still, they wont use them if they have an SoS in play, so the only healing you can give to them is from your anti mattered creatures, but anti mattering your creatures is not the smartest thing to do since SoS' effect is limited.
but 4 unupped SoS will be an instant kill!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: oblivion1212 on September 25, 2011, 02:02:33 pm
Hmm ... :earth textures.

Before:

(http://i.imgur.com/xaEal.png)

After:

(http://i.imgur.com/9FkIf.png)
lol'ed at this... a lot...

SoSerendipity ---> random cards, right? not necessarily from your deck??

sorry to ask, it's just that my connection's too slow for trainer to open.. :O
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on September 25, 2011, 02:03:29 pm
Right.

AI does not commit suicide anymore using SoS.
Unfortunately, it still plays SoS before shields. Bone Wall and Dimensional Shield are the best examples of wasted healing and advantage.

Also, SoSe is still causing visual bugs. If you click a card you're getting before it's completely appeared, you can make that spot in your hand invisible. This means the subsequent cards you draw that end up in that spot are invisible, but you can still use them.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: burne on September 25, 2011, 03:38:39 pm
Nice job.

I also find that Shard of Sacrifice is too powerful.

Instead of dealing 24 damage, I would prefer it to reduce max hp by 24. That's sacrifice.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RavingRabbid on September 25, 2011, 04:33:11 pm
Gift me a nerf to fire for my birthday, Zanz. Then 1.29 is the perfect patch.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rosutosefi on September 25, 2011, 05:04:58 pm
Nice job.

I also find Shard of Sacrifice is too powerful.

Instead of dealing 24 damage, I would prefer it to reduce max hp by 24. That's sacrifice.
hmm. too much IMO. If hp loss is permanent, maybe just around 15.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: markilleruk on September 25, 2011, 06:23:35 pm
What is SoS was a permanent and halved your current max HP?

so after 6 of em: 100-50-25-13-7-4-2

IE chain em or die next turn :P
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rosutosefi on September 25, 2011, 06:26:39 pm
Too much hate on SoS.  :))
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Elite arbiter on September 25, 2011, 07:12:32 pm
I'm not too sure about SoS. It gives Death rush frightening potential. Sure it isn't entirely a rush anymore, but it can get rush-like damage out, while at the same time having a real good defensive game. Although granted the deck I made would crumble to mass CC. There are certain things that can potentially beat SoS though, like heavy heavy stalls, OTK's, and so on. Overall I do think that it should give some reduction to max hp, but really in some cases you only need one, and all this talk about the new patch creating a blitz game... SoS pretty much neuters any rush, so thats something.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 25, 2011, 07:24:50 pm
I'm not too sure about SoS. It gives Death rush frightening potential. Sure it isn't entirely a rush anymore, but it can get rush-like damage out, while at the same time having a real good defensive game. Although granted the deck I made would crumble to mass CC. There are certain things that can potentially beat SoS though, like heavy heavy stalls, OTK's, and so on. Overall I do think that it should give some reduction to max hp, but really in some cases you only need one, and all this talk about the new patch creating a blitz game... SoS pretty much neuters any rush, so thats something.
Well the patch will turn the game into a blitzkrieg AFTER the obvious Shard of Sacrifice nerf. It WILL be nerfed, because as it is it turns the game into rock-paper-scissor with a 5% of your choice to miss-fire and lose anyway due to bad luck.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: artimies7 on September 25, 2011, 07:28:09 pm
I'm not too sure about SoS. It gives Death rush frightening potential. Sure it isn't entirely a rush anymore, but it can get rush-like damage out, while at the same time having a real good defensive game. Although granted the deck I made would crumble to mass CC. There are certain things that can potentially beat SoS though, like heavy heavy stalls, OTK's, and so on. Overall I do think that it should give some reduction to max hp, but really in some cases you only need one, and all this talk about the new patch creating a blitz game... SoS pretty much neuters any rush, so thats something.
Well the patch will turn the game into a blitzkrieg AFTER the obvious Shard of Sacrifice nerf. It WILL be nerfed, because as it is it turns the game into rock-paper-scissor with a 5% of your choice to miss-fire and lose anyway due to bad luck.
Mebbe zanz likes a thrown game of rock-paper-scissors. Challenges galore!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on September 25, 2011, 07:32:39 pm
Silence is a reliable counter to SoS that also stops your opponent from playing any more offence. SoS is extremely powerful outside of that, though. It will change things up a bit, which hasn't happened in a very long time.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Elite arbiter on September 25, 2011, 07:48:19 pm
One thing to note about SoS though as I'm discovering. It swiches off Mulligan, so you wind up with hands where you just get no pillars at all, and a SoS that is worthless on turns 1-2.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rember on September 25, 2011, 08:15:32 pm
Mulligan isn't just for pillars. All 0 cost cards are included.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on September 25, 2011, 09:32:57 pm
Ive used all the shards now, quite a lot.

Shard of Readiness - sure it can give adren to time creatures, but overall it is still the same.  the mummy rewind deck is faster on the damage though, making it viable

Shard of Divinity - meh, not much difference at all, and a lousy 3-4 hp difference from having a light mark or not is no big game changer (15/18 - 18/22)

Shard of Gratitude - just like sod, not much difference.  without a life mark you only gain 4 hp, which is still great since it still costs random quanta

Shard of Sacrifice - not as great as everyone thinks, you cannot necessarily build a deck around this card.  throwing a few into each deck is a good idea though.  and if you stick 6 in your deck, you risk not drawing any pillars/towers.  its not as great as everyone once thought, give it a try and youll see

Shard of Void - main use is to combat a healing deck, otherwise not that great.  it can only reduce a person down to 1 hp, so it does not kill.  and when you damage your opponent youll notice that if he isnt healing, the shards are a waste of space

Shard of Patience - might seem great in a fractal deck at first, but if you draw too many, they take up space in your hand for when you go to fractal, but i use a basic chrysaora deck, and these worked wonders to speed up the kill.  good for water, flooding still sucks so dont rely on that for any +4/+4, and unless you get a lot of creatures out AND draw a bunch of sops, it might just be better to use another creature in place of the sops.  5 creatures out = +5 damage, but you can easily use 1 creature with 5 power instead.

Shard of Serendipity - OP, 4th turn of at least 10 games in a row against AI3, I had more out than any speedbow could ever get.  plus on some games i had quite good PC/CC from the shard.  it is very random, and some games never produced enough damage for the deck i was using though.  throw 2 into a speedbow deck for a little randomness and possible extra creatures.
6x serendipity, 6x precog, 6x sundial, 6x snova, 6x QT = 42 cards effectively played as an 18 card deck
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on September 25, 2011, 09:53:07 pm
Shard of Readiness - sure it can give adren to time creatures, but overall it is still the same.  the mummy rewind deck is faster on the damage though, making it viable
-i agree, but its great with deja vus, and fun with :time dragon mitosis decks

Shard of Divinity - meh, not much difference at all, and a lousy 3-4 hp difference from having a light mark or not is no big game changer (15/18 - 18/22)
-yep.

Shard of Gratitude - just like sod, not much difference.  without a life mark you only gain 4 hp, which is still great since it still costs random quanta
-yep.

Shard of Sacrifice - not as great as everyone thinks, you cannot necessarily build a deck around this card.  throwing a few into each deck is a good idea though.  and if you stick 6 in your deck, you risk not drawing any pillars/towers.  its not as great as everyone once thought, give it a try and youll see
-it can be a real life saver, essentially adding ~4 turns to your life when used properly

Shard of Void - main use is to combat a healing deck, otherwise not that great.  it can only reduce a person down to 1 hp, so it does not kill.  and when you damage your opponent youll notice that if he isnt healing, the shards are a waste of space
-it truely shines in this deck:
by moomoose
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
6ru 6ru 6ru 6ru 6ru 6ru 7k2 7k2 7k2 7k6 7k6 7k6 7k6 7k6 7k6 7la 7la 7la 7la 7la 7la 7la 7la 7la 7la 7la 7la 7la 7la 7la 7t8 7t8 7tb 7tb 7tc 7tc 7tc 7tc 7tc 7tc 8pt
  lower the max hp until drain life can finish them off in one turn, or until the dagger will.

Shard of Patience - might seem great in a fractal deck at first, but if you draw too many, they take up space in your hand for when you go to fractal, but i use a basic chrysaora deck, and these worked wonders to speed up the kill.  good for water, flooding still sucks so dont rely on that for any +4/+4, and unless you get a lot of creatures out AND draw a bunch of sops, it might just be better to use another creature in place of the sops.  5 creatures out = +5 damage, but you can easily use 1 creature with 5 power instead.
-fractal/mitosis ball lightnings rock, so does mitosis ball lightnings if you have hand issues, mitosis physies/squids is alright.

Shard of Serendipity - OP, 4th turn of at least 10 games in a row against AI3, I had more out than any speedbow could ever get.  plus on some games i had quite good PC/CC from the shard.  it is very random, and some games never produced enough damage for the deck i was using though.  throw 2 into a speedbow deck for a little randomness and possible extra creatures.
6x serendipity, 6x precog, 6x sundial, 6x snova, 6x QT = 42 cards effectively played as an 18 card deck
-any halfway decent upped speedbow bashes ai3
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Elite arbiter on September 25, 2011, 10:12:30 pm
For Shard of Patience, it really only works in a water deck, but there it shines with the capacity to give each creature +2 per, and at a 1 Other cost thats not really bad at all.

And Shard of Serendipity... its not really OP, I tried out that combination and it actually did poorly against Ai3. You're much better off going something more along the lines of 9 QT, 6 SN, 6 Seren, and then just throw in 9-10 standard cards. Don't use shields or weapons though, as you'll more than likely random some. If you're doing this style of deck though, put in a Improved Mutation as one of the cards. Can be a critical card to utilize, and turning one of your "rustlers" into a powerful mutation can be key.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rember on September 25, 2011, 10:27:13 pm
SoSe might not be OP due to all the bad cards in the game (and dissipation field, stop being 100% chance to get) but it sure is fun.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BloodlinE on September 26, 2011, 08:30:32 am
how will the shards react to mark cards??

eg.sod,sog and sov??
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rosutosefi on September 26, 2011, 01:11:46 pm
Nothing happens. Well, nothing should happen, as the mark is the one on the mark permanent slot, and mark cards won't be placed in this slot.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Elite arbiter on September 27, 2011, 07:23:50 pm
I probably should note something, incase it wasn't brought up earlier. Serendipity doesn't give the Ai all of the cards at times when it is played. I did have Ai speed on high when this happened though, and it happened a couple times. I'm assuming that it is just trying to play the new cards too fast.

Also realized that Protect Artifact'd Bone Wall functions normally via "that silly ai", which is weird since it seems like it should trigger the same clause that dissapation shield and sanctuary does.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rosutosefi on September 29, 2011, 12:38:44 am
I probably should note something, incase it wasn't brought up earlier. Serendipity doesn't give the Ai all of the cards at times when it is played. I did have Ai speed on high when this happened though, and it happened a couple times. I'm assuming that it is just trying to play the new cards too fast.

Also realized that Protect Artifact'd Bone Wall functions normally via "that silly ai", which is weird since it seems like it should trigger the same clause that dissapation shield and sanctuary does.
But PA's and quint only disables targeting, and will not make the permanent indestructible. Therefore a PA'ed bonewall cannot be targeted by spells but will be affected by attacking hits.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: loadquo on September 30, 2011, 12:07:46 am
The AI for when to play shards of sacrifice (especially unupped) is not very good. It should calculate how much damage will be done in 2 turns and only play it when that is over 30.

Also it is good at playing Shards of Patience when SoS is out, but then goes on to play creatures on later turns for more healing for you.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: zanzarino on September 30, 2011, 04:40:38 am
I am uploading a new beta version with several new things to try, mainly about balance:
1. Shard of gratitude heals 3 (5 if  :life mark) both for upped and unupped(cost 5)
2. Shard of Divinity adds 16 (24 if  :light mark) both for upped and unupped(cost 5)
3. Shard of Patience non  :water creatures gain +1/+0
4. Shard of sacrifice HP cost increased to 40/32 if upped
5. Shard of readiness lets  :time creatures use their skill immediately and twice (instead of adrenaline)

6. Explosion cost increased to 3/2
7. Ash stats decreased to 0/5
8. Shroedinger cat skill cost reduced to 1 :entropy
9. Immolation  :fire gain reduced to 6(8upped)
10. Quanta pool capped at 50 quanta per element

Please test it, have fun, and give me some feedback.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Mithcairion on September 30, 2011, 04:46:55 am
Well, that kinda destroys the usefullness of Stone Skin.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ~Napalm on September 30, 2011, 04:53:04 am
*leaves*
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Jappert on September 30, 2011, 04:58:18 am
9. Quanta pool capped at 50 quanta per element
Could someone explain why? This makes Stoneskin a very sad panda :(
It's also a killing blow to any bolt stall.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: MatrimKK on September 30, 2011, 05:02:46 am
Could you explain the reasoning for the quanta cap?

I like the look of the balance of shards will test asap.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Onizuka on September 30, 2011, 05:02:53 am

5. Explosion cost increased to 3/2
6. Ash stats decreased to 0/5
7. Shroedinger cat skill cost reduced to 1 :entropy
8. Immolation  :fire gain reduced to 6(8upped)
9. Quanta pool capped at 50 quanta per element

Please test it, have fun, and give me some feedback.
(http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/freddie-mercury-rage-pose-template.png)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: furballdn on September 30, 2011, 05:03:09 am
I am uploading a new beta version with several new things to try, mainly about balance:
1. Shard of gratitude heals 3 (5 if  :life mark) both for upped and unupped(cost 5)
2. Shard of Divinity adds 16 (24 if  :light mark) both for upped and unupped(cost 5)
3. Shard of Patience non  :water creatures gain +1/+0
4. Shard of sacrifice HP cost increased to 40/32 if upped
5. Shard of readiness lets  :time creatures use their skill immediately and twice (instead of adrenaline)

5. Explosion cost increased to 3/2
6. Ash stats decreased to 0/5
7. Shroedinger cat skill cost reduced to 1 :entropy
8. Immolation  :fire gain reduced to 6(8upped)
9. Quanta pool capped at 50 quanta per element

Please test it, have fun, and give me some feedback.
Nice to see the boost in health of SoD, SoP is pretty good too. It works on scorpion decks, but isn't super OP when used with fractal sparks. SoS isn't as OP anymore, and SoR can make some wicked combos with scarabs, pharaohs, and anubis.

Explosion got nerfed. That's cool. Explosion for 2|1  :fire was a bit too powerful, but now will people start using steal instead of defrag? Ash is also slightly nerfed. That's good. A lightning can take it out now, and it can no longer have rage potion used on it. Schrodinger's cat gets buffed, that's pretty cool. Immolation gets a serious nerf. With only 6  :fire gain, some decks, like grabbix, don't seem to be viable anymore. I'm not really complaining, as immolation was pretty OP.

Quanta pool capped? I...don't really like the idea of that. It makes some cards not as great as they were. Stone skin can now only heal 50 health, farenheit's max damage is capped at 15, and the fire lance OTK doesn't work anymore. Six fire lances with a cap of 50 quanta can only do 93 damage. Not even enough to kill an AI3, much less a FG.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on September 30, 2011, 05:04:01 am
9. Quanta pool capped at 50 quanta per element
Could someone explain why? This makes Stoneskin a very sad panda :(
It's also a killing blow to any bolt stall.
Like the infamous overused Fire Stall!

I'm happy with a lot of these changes, though I'm not sure capping quanta is the best solution to the problem of so many stall decks, especially as long as Fahrenheit (and the newly added Shard of Void) can bring opponents' hp into bolt otk range. But I won't complain since I don't have a  better solution either :)

One of the fun things about Immolation generating only 6 :fire is that that isn't enough to summon a Phoenix, on top of the global (well deserved) Fire nerf it causes. Explosion/Deflagration cost increase should make it harder to just splash it into everything.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ralouf on September 30, 2011, 05:11:36 am
oooh too bad you can't be OTK by a fire stall ? rlly you people are going to complain while it make 3 months that everyone is crying cuz fire is OP in arena and now you'll cry because fire is nerfing..

I think we can decrease the stone skin cost.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 30, 2011, 05:11:47 am
Well ... I don't know what to say.

New shard images:

(http://i.imgur.com/X6HGt.png)(http://i.imgur.com/TWUA6.png)(http://i.imgur.com/iSRsN.png)(http://i.imgur.com/nQEEu.png)(http://i.imgur.com/6warG.png)(http://i.imgur.com/UHkbR.png)(http://i.imgur.com/llHjm.png)(http://i.imgur.com/9crTO.png)(http://i.imgur.com/dcqCo.png)(http://i.imgur.com/8KWU2.png)

Other new card images:

(http://i.imgur.com/q5Wmd.png)(http://i.imgur.com/GApo8.png)(http://i.imgur.com/Uq61m.png)(http://i.imgur.com/xi3Jg.png)(http://i.imgur.com/nmmKH.png)(http://i.imgur.com/a16kD.png)(http://i.imgur.com/ZULHs.png)(http://i.imgur.com/dKZAS.png)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: MatrimKK on September 30, 2011, 05:25:36 am
I won't claim to have a better solution but I think making bolt damage dynamic via diminishing returns could be a start
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: furballdn on September 30, 2011, 05:35:14 am
I say if you're going to make a quanta cap, at least make it 100 and not 50.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Bhlewos on September 30, 2011, 05:36:28 am
^This (@ Matrim's post). Some sort of formula like with Catapult's. Quanta capping seems to me like it could bring up a whole bunch of other problems.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: zanzarino on September 30, 2011, 05:37:30 am
Rationale for quanta cap:

Things tend to go broken when variables have no limit. Stoneskin has a limit because of that and future cards might need the cap as well. The cap is more effective at limiting arena decks where generating large amount of quanta is relatively easy and often exploited. The current damage limit for bolts and Fahrenheit is also infinite, which is a tad too high.

The cap does not need to be at "50" and future cards can increase the quanta pool capacity creating new interesting strategies.

All these changes are not set in stone yet, but please test them before you jump to conclusions.

P.S.: I also added a special treat for fate egg and deja vu if used with SoR, they also can use their skill twice.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 30, 2011, 05:40:33 am
You can use Fate Egg's skill twice? *Goes off to find out how that's even possible*
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: MatrimKK on September 30, 2011, 05:40:54 am
why you come to chat??? :P
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Kamietsu on September 30, 2011, 05:47:25 am
Wow. 1.29 is going to be on a whole new level of Epic. As for the quanta cap. I like it. It's a good idea, however, I hope that if it gets put into effect, the cap is 75, not 50 or 100. 75 seems like a good number and keeps Stone Skin viable.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Avenger on September 30, 2011, 05:53:29 am
Since SoG would now stack, I don't think it has truly been nerfed, arena decks will enjoy the ridicule healing, hmm...
 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
OMG, imagine this in an immortal type deck.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Avenger on September 30, 2011, 05:55:43 am
Rationale for quanta cap:

Things tend to go broken when variables have no limit. Stoneskin has a limit because of that and future cards might need the cap as well. The cap is more effective at limiting arena decks where generating large amount of quanta is relatively easy and often exploited. The current damage limit for bolts and Fahrenheit is also infinite, which is a tad too high.

The cap does not need to be at "50" and future cards can increase the quanta pool capacity creating new interesting strategies.

All these changes are not set in stone yet, but please test them before you jump to conclusions.

P.S.: I also added a special treat for fate egg and deja vu if used with SoR, they also can use their skill twice.
Well, if there are cards that increase the capacity, then even 100 is good as a cap. At least firestalls will need some more creativity.
Uhm, i mean, 50? That's a tad bit low.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: SnoWeb on September 30, 2011, 05:57:41 am
1. Shard of gratitude heals 3 (5 if  :life mark) both for upped and unupped(cost 5)
6. Explosion cost increased to 3/2
7. Ash stats decreased to 0/5
9. Immolation  :fire gain reduced to 6(8upped)
10. Quanta pool capped at 50 quanta per element
Finally a real nerf to fire stall with a small nerf to immorush. Oh Zanzarino, you make me happy!

5. Shard of readiness lets  :time creatures use their skill immediately and twice (instead of adrenaline)
This is very good. It is more in the theme IMO. It would be completely perfect if it was also usable on permanents. I mean, it would also increase the usefulness of the cards for all elements, not only for time.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Bhlewos on September 30, 2011, 06:01:18 am
5. Shard of readiness lets  :time creatures use their skill immediately and twice (instead of adrenaline)
This is very good. It is more in the theme IMO. It would be completely perfect if it was also usable on permanents. I mean, it would also increase the usefulness of the cards for all elements, not only for time.
I could just imagine AI derping with that. "SoR on my Golden Hourglasses! Draw 10 cards a turn! Oh wait, I'm out? Bummer."
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: zanzarino on September 30, 2011, 06:07:45 am
*leaves*
You can not leave Napalm: Elements needs you; besides,  if you leave you are going to miss the creation of the next fire card and that is the first item in my "to do" list after I am done with the shards.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 30, 2011, 06:14:28 am
*leaves*
You can not leave Napalm: Elements needs you; besides,  if you leave you are going to miss the creation of the next fire card and that is the first item in my "to do" list after I am done with the shards.
A new Fire card? I suppose they do have few cards compared to other elements ... will Aether be next?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rember on September 30, 2011, 06:18:24 am
Obligatory SoSa is still overpowered.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 30, 2011, 06:36:15 am
First things first: I love this.

Now.

I am uploading a new beta version with several new things to try, mainly about balance:
1. Shard of gratitude heals 3 (5 if  :life mark) both for upped and unupped(cost 5)
2. Shard of Divinity adds 16 (24 if  :light mark) both for upped and unupped(cost 5)
3. Shard of Patience non  :water creatures gain +1/+0
4. Shard of sacrifice HP cost increased to 40/32 if upped
5. Shard of readiness lets  :time creatures use their skill immediately and twice (instead of adrenaline)

5. Explosion cost increased to 3/2
6. Ash stats decreased to 0/5
7. Shroedinger cat skill cost reduced to 1 :entropy
8. Immolation  :fire gain reduced to 6(8upped)
9. Quanta pool capped at 50 quanta per element

Please test it, have fun, and give me some feedback.
1. SoG at 3/5 is pretty much perfect. Still enables unupped Firestall with Life mark, but with the Firestall nerfing below, it's not a major problem. It allows healing in every deck, but it's not major healing: that's restricted to Life and that's pretty much as perfect as it may get. I also love how it costs 5 unupped: unless you go rainbow, you have to pay more than a Sanctuary. Perfect.

2. SoD at 16/24 for both upped and unupped is very nice too, a real reason to use it with Light mark, and also a very valuable card overall. It also doesn't step on the toes of Heal, as it has slightly higher costs.

3. Gets rid of the only real issue I had with SoP (Fractal BL), so like it! The card is pretty good now, in my opinion.

4. Well, this is intresting. Instead of sacrificing max hp you chose to increase hp reduction even more. I suppose the reasoning is trying to set it at a cost where smart playing and/or initial fast rushing can counter it. It might work, I don't know, needs testing. I'll try it against FGs too.

5. <3

5b. Yay!

6. Noticed the idea a while ago, it's intresting. It's a small nerf to phoenix, and it's not a nerf to it offensively, but rather defensively, allowing a heavy CC deck to get rid of it without wasting 3 cards. I'm not just thinking about Rage Potion and Lightning, but rather about upped Otyughs killing a phoenix at the first go, flying OEs killing phoenixes without too much of a problem, Pandemonium having a chance... It's nice.

7. Buff was deserved.

8. Immolation nerfed so that it's one quanta short of a phoenix? I like. Now it's still powerful, but cannot be exploited so that you "avoid" the card disadvantage. Still works perfectly if upped or with Minor Phoenixes. I like it!

9. This is perhaps the most strange one. I never thought about it this way. Quanta cap is very nice, I can see oh so many card ideas starting from this... [Gravity Well: quanta cap for both players is at 10. Demon's Bargain: your :darkness quanta cap is lowered by 20. You gain 5 :darkness. Just off the top of my head, need tweaking and all but is FUN]

I personally think 75 is a better cap, but I'm not so sure. With the new SoD out, StoneSkin might fall in usefulness a lot. I can't see any other problem with this, though, as Fahrenheit capping at 15 is ok for me (still more than a Dragon...) and Bolts capping at 93 damage is kinda perfect. Stall Faster still works, Firestall needs more time to load up the damage, but they still work. I like it. I don't know if it will need more tweaking.

For now, I'll throw out an idea for StoneSkin that might be taken into consideration: double the HP increase (75 hp cap still there), increase the cost a bit (5|4?). It might be a bit too strong, I don't know, but it would buff Stone Skin alright, both in respect to SoD (still needs 12 quanta to be equal, also since it takes it into consideration AFTER the cost IIRC, it would mean 17 quanta to be equal... but gives 75 hp at 43 quanta).
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 30, 2011, 06:42:34 am
Interesting how many changes have come from exact player suggestions and feedback. The Shard of Gratitude, Shard of Readiness, Explosion and Ash changes were all suggested in the very manner in which Zanz has changed them.

Thanks for listening to us, Zanz. :)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ralouf on September 30, 2011, 07:36:32 am
Btw I just can't wait it to be available all those updates are very good !
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on September 30, 2011, 07:58:38 am
This update was neccesary. Thanks Zanz :) After this nerfs fire this game is fair!
75 quantum for FireLance is still too much. 50 is ok and acceptable. Stone Skin isn't a problem. 75 health was too much. SS gives often more HP than Heal (it isn't difficult to having more than 20HP) and it is cheaper than Heal, so this change was very important.

Thanks also for buff for Light and Life :) This is very important to promote the weakness elements.

SoR - this is very good change! This shard now has got fantastic synergy with Time.

Now I belive that this game has got sense. Now we are waiting for really good Shard for Air and maybe Earth.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: burne on September 30, 2011, 08:08:45 am
Hooray for the balance !

Can't wait also for discovering next shards !

I still find SoSacrifice too powerfull against False Gods.
Along with sundials and poisoning, it's damn effective.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: gumbeh on September 30, 2011, 08:33:40 am
I am uploading a new beta version with several new things to try, mainly about balance:
1. Shard of gratitude heals 3 (5 if  :life mark) both for upped and unupped(cost 5)
2. Shard of Divinity adds 16 (24 if  :light mark) both for upped and unupped(cost 5)
3. Shard of Patience non  :water creatures gain +1/+0
4. Shard of sacrifice HP cost increased to 40/32 if upped
5. Shard of readiness lets  :time creatures use their skill immediately and twice (instead of adrenaline)
Not a fan of Fractal Growing Sparks? :D
Quote
6. Explosion cost increased to 3/2
7. Ash stats decreased to 0/5
9. Immolation  :fire gain reduced to 6(8upped)
The problem with instant quanta generation isn't the amount, it's the fact that it's instant. Rainbows and immorushes will always have a massive turn 1 advantage unless their quanta generation happens at end of turn like the rest of us. Hooray for fire nerfs, though, overall. Beta trainer can't tell us much, though, we'll need to see its effect on PVP and Arena.
Quote
10. Quanta pool capped at 50 quanta per element
What's this for? An indirect nerf to decks that fractal big, expensive creatures?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Tiko on September 30, 2011, 08:38:12 am
Though I  love the currrent changes (Fire, Flooding, SoaP), my concern with the quanta cap is mainly with Ice Bolt, that there is no guaranteed freeze anymore. Its damage now peaks at the maximum of 12 with the freeze chance of 90%(?) at 50 :water, and while it is still a useful spell this way, it has been rather weakened. Same goes for Drain Life with a 12 HP drain, but both Darkness and Fire has their means for quanta 'accelerating'.

Just noting, yet I'll test it more and in other settings, but it seems that the classic Water/Light stall is almost completely destroyed this way - can't decide if that's a good thing or not.

The game seems to get more and more fast-paced..
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: gumbeh on September 30, 2011, 08:51:29 am
The game seems to get more and more fast-paced..
AKA "stall gameplay is being removed as an option"? So that's what the cap of 50 is for!

Good for the arena, slightly diminishes the meta... worthwhile I guess.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 30, 2011, 09:18:23 am
Though I  love the currrent changes (Fire, Flooding, SoaP), my concern with the quanta cap is mainly with Ice Bolt, that there is no guaranteed freeze anymore. Its damage now peaks at the maximum of 12 with the freeze chance of 90%(?) at 50 :water, and while it is still a useful spell this way, it has been rather weakened. Same goes for Drain Life with a 12 HP drain, but both Darkness and Fire has their means for quanta 'accelerating'.

Just noting, yet I'll test it more and in other settings, but it seems that the classic Water/Light stall is almost completely destroyed this way - can't decide if that's a good thing or not.

The game seems to get more and more fast-paced..
Bolts cap at 12/18 now. With 10 more quanta in the quanta cap, they will deal 14/21, with 6 Fire Bolts dealing 105 damages and Ice Bolt having a guaranteed freeze. Stone Skin would then cap at 58 hp (calculated after quanta subtraction), meaning 6 stoneskins will net you 448 hps at BEST.

As it is, the numbers would allow for bolt OTK at the exact same time as they would allow for assured weapon freezing. However, Firestall decks don't quite need to be able to OTK thanks to Fahrenheit. The quanta cap reduces Fire's weapon efficacy, but slightly so if you consider most Firestalls have already got the game when they reach about 50 quanta. They just need to stall a bit longer (which is nice, of course) but they will eventually get you into OTK range. It's still a pretty good nerf, nay, a VERY good one, because although it doesn't affect Firestall's effectiveness in many matchups, it DOES allow for some good counters: Shard of Divinity comes to mind, if you don't want to play with stoneskins. Paired with good healing assures to be always away from OTK range.

Suggestions: cap quanta at 50, increase Ice Bolt's chance of freezing by 10%, change StoneSkin so that it gives more hp for a lower quanta (ideas: double the hp gain and increase starting cost, or increase the cost but grant a starting hp increase - for instance, make it cost 6|5 with a start of 15 hp increase, plus quanta calculated BEFORE casting cost, like bolts: gives between 20-21 and 65 hp increase, it's practically as good as the old one as 6 will net you 494 hp (almost the maximum) and it's a bit faster than before; I personally like the second idea best, but they both have the same kind of impact, and there are many other ways to do this). Siphon Life is still less useful, maybe increase the starting damage a bit? It would differentiate it from the other ones and give it a bit more use as fast CC rather than late game bolt spell... It's not really that important, though.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Zaealix on September 30, 2011, 09:29:54 am
Nice to see that  :fire stall will actually take skill to create and use. No offense, but it seemed like you could fly by the seat of your pants with immo rush/firestall deck builds.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on September 30, 2011, 10:03:33 am
drain life is still ok, its just used for CC now and you still gain life, whether you target the player or a creature
ice bolt though needs a little something something, how about a chance to freeze the shield if the player is targeted
AI using firestall wont be any different, AI uses fire bolts early, usually long before 50 quanta

and now, ima go play with some sors and eggs :P
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: vagman13 on September 30, 2011, 10:19:05 am
I hate this patch more and more as time passes by.Sogs nerf ruins both my fg grinders,fire nerf ruins so many pvp (upped and unupped decks like immophoenix),explosion is no longer splashable in nova-war decks.
Lovely,
 How about increasing graboid cost to 5,dim shield to 10,remove draw from sundial,increase poison to 3,half the damage of catapult,decrease sanctuary to 2 healing,make animate weapon cost air  quanta,increase hourglass to 6 and generally remove every fun thing that exists in this game and call it balance fix?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: TheManuz on September 30, 2011, 10:26:56 am
I hate this patch more and more as time passes by.Sogs nerf ruins both my fg grinders,fire nerf ruins so many pvp (upped and unupped decks like immophoenix),explosion is no longer splashable in nova-war decks.
Lovely,
 How about increasing graboid cost to 5,dim shield to 10,remove draw from sundial,increase poison to 3,half the damage of catapult,decrease sanctuary to 2 healing,make animate weapon cost air  quanta,increase hourglass to 6 and generally remove every fun thing that exists in this game and call it balance fix?
Man, don't be rude...
explosion was definitely overpowered (underpriced is a better word), but you can still splash it in every deck simply using a fire mark.
Fire decks needs to be rebalanced, sure, but they far from "ruined".
Other than that, give it some time. It's a beta, it's under testing, these modifications will not be permanent if they unbalances the game.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on September 30, 2011, 10:32:07 am
Quote from: vagman13
and generally remove every fun thing that exists in this game and call it balance fix?
no one likes playing against a firestall or immo rush, and explosion, can you say, divine glory nerf :)
i certainly dont like it when DG plays 1 fire tower and destroys the much needed shield or weapon or other perm i just played on my turn, now he needs 2 towers or wait 2 turns
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 30, 2011, 10:40:39 am
I hate this patch more and more as time passes by.Sogs nerf ruins both my fg grinders,fire nerf ruins so many pvp (upped and unupped decks like immophoenix),explosion is no longer splashable in nova-war decks.
Lovely,
 How about increasing graboid cost to 5,dim shield to 10,remove draw from sundial,increase poison to 3,half the damage of catapult,decrease sanctuary to 2 healing,make animate weapon cost air  quanta,increase hourglass to 6 and generally remove every fun thing that exists in this game and call it balance fix?
Well, the best FG grinders don't really use many SoGs and surely aren't dependant on it. Also, it's quite possible that SoSacrifice will revolutionize FG grinding altogether. Also, SoG won't now be splashed into upped PvP decks and Arena decks to grant massive healing to most stalls and even to some rushes.
Fire nerf ruins SOME pvp decks (arguably the BEST ones) and forces creativity, changing the metagame for once (and I personally believe for the better).
Deflagration nerf is something the game needed, and it will possibly be paired with the introduction of more PC cards in the future to spread the love to other elements. It's no longer splashable in nova war decks and that is something I personally love: novagrabby won't be as reliable if you need 3 novas to bust through a single Wings or Dimshield. Also increases the use of Momentum.

I love the changes. They will shake up the game a bit, way more than Shards will.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ralouf on September 30, 2011, 10:55:09 am
I agree with morm. Fire is now going to be more as powerfull as other instead of having the best stall deck AND the fastest rush deck.. that was really needed IMO.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: kirchj33 on September 30, 2011, 11:16:02 am
Great patch zanz.  Whether or not some of these changes are effective or not, it means the world to me that you, as a developer, are putting real effort into balancing the meta.

Well, the best FG grinders don't really use many SoGs and surely aren't dependant on it.
First, let me say that on this list (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,25609.msg349339#msg349339) of the top 10 FG grinders, 7 use SoG, I would say 4 of those 7 are dependent upon them, the exception being the 3 RoL/Hope variants, which probably just function differently without it.  I agree the new patch provides several new deck ideas and options we are yet to see.

Now, let me shift my focus entirely to PvP, as this is certainly where the meta and balancing matters most.  I want to bring up some "bigger picture" meta points that others have not yet brought into focus.

The deflag nerf is needed.  However, this is also an indirect nerf to pvp rainbows, especially unupped.  What this means is that discord becomes stronger as people are more reliant upon monos and duos.  EQ also receives a buff, but I find that generally EQ is fairly balanced and can be worked around through quanta splits and intelligent playing.  All perms receive a soft buff via the rainbow nerf.  I believe among the most significant of these is Dim Shield.  One nice effect however, would be an indirect indirect buff to gravity and momentum.  In conclusion, I believe discord needs a nerf as a result of this patch.

Quanta cap at 50:  Goodbye most popular methods to stalling.  Except, I don't feel this actually does much to nerf firestall.  It will still be annoying as hell in arena, and it will still be annoying as hell in PvP.  It will simply be played as a troll deck now, with the possibility of killing through fahr.  It will still be strong.  Other bolt based decks will not.  Diss shield is pretty much unaffected.  Stone skin will not be "strong".  Stoneskin was pretty poor to start with, as you had to commit huge amounts of quanta to using it before.  It was made viable by sanc/miracle or poison.

Which leads me to my final point.  How the meta will shift as a result to the quanta cap.  The major mechanic seen in "stalls" will now undoubtedly be poison (if you want to call poison a stall).  The nice thing about having a few effective stalls in the meta is that they are nice curveballs that prevent everyone from packing a ton of CC and shields.  These are already effective pvp strategies before removing powerful stalls.  I suppose purify receives an indirect buff as well.

These are not complaints, just points I wanted to raise.  I find the ideas to be awesome all-in-all!

One question for zanz:  Can we expect updates to take effect mid-war?  It doesn't seem like they would be ready by then, considering more shards still need to be developed and tested, but it is a possibility all teams who will build their vaults next week need to consider. 
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on September 30, 2011, 11:20:42 am
First, let me say that on this list (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,25609.msg349339#msg349339) of the top 10 FG grinders, 7 use SoG, I would say 4 of those 7 are dependent upon them, the exception being the 3 RoL/Hope variants, which probably just function differently without it.
Fast Draw Ghostal doesn't need SoGs, they only really help with EMs.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on September 30, 2011, 11:52:56 am
Looking at the list of changes, in general I think that most of them are a good thing.

1. Shard of gratitude heals 3 (5 if   :life mark) both for upped and unupped(cost 5)
This is a good thing.  It makes the card strictly worse than sanctuary in nonlife decks, and makes it harder to heal in decks that have no business being as good at healing as they were with 5hp/turn at 3 cost.

2. Shard of Divinity adds 16 (24 if  :light  mark) both for upped and unupped(cost 5)
This is good as well.  It gives less hp than Heal to nonlight, and costs more.  It might be overcosted at 5, but we'll see.

3. Shard of Patience non   :water creatures gain +1/+0
Prevents the ball lightning/fractal thing and minimizes the benefit for nonwater, while still giving nonwater something.  I like the change.

4. Shard of sacrifice HP cost increased to 40/32 if upped
That's a hefty hp cost to play, and that might be enough to balance the amazing power of the card.  It's definitely still playable even with that hp cost. 

5. Shard of readiness lets  :time  creatures use their skill immediately and twice (instead of adrenaline)
Definitely a good idea.  The adrenaline thing was basically making an 'other' version of adrenaline that just happened to also make any skill cost zero.  This gets the card back to the main focus, making the ability cost 0, while still giving a usable extra ability to Time.  One of my favourite targets for this card are nymphs, and Golden Nymph definitely benefits from this one.

5. Explosion cost increased to 3/2
Definitely a good thing; explosion at 2/1 was one of the culprits behind fire's problems. 
 
6. Ash stats decreased to 0/5
That puts Ash in killing range of a few more cards; that's a good thing.  I don't think it wil make a huge difference, and it certainly won't turn anybody off from playing phoenixes.

7. Shroedinger cat skill cost reduced to 1
Might as well; that will help make it more usable.  It's a change I wasn't at all expecting, but I think one for the better.

8. Immolation   :fire gain reduced to 6(8upped)
I'd suggested a few changes to this card, and while this wasn't one of them, I think it's a step in the right direction.  The suggestions I'd made in another thread were either to require a fire creature as the sacrifice, which would slow it down as there are no 0 cost fire creatures, or to increase the base cost from 0 to 1 and the gain from 7 to 8(9 to 10) which would have kept the gain amonut the same while requiring either towers, novas, or some other way of getting that first quanta.

9. Quanta pool capped at 50 quanta per element
My first instinct was to say 'this sucks donkey balls', but after thinking about it, maybe it's not so bad.  It does mean a few other things need to be worked out before this goes live.  Stone Skin might need to be improved, unless hurting 500hp EM decks was part of the goal.  The false god Decay no longer even has the win condition that it once had with siphon life, as that would cap at 12hp; he'll need something like Obsidian Dragon even more than he did before. (he was the weakest FG -before- this change; now he will be even more of a joke)  Jezebel might need a buff, too, though she isn't as reliant on Siphon Life as a finisher like Decay is.  Fire bolt/Ice Bolt/Drain Life all take a hit, but mostly for/vs the AI; in pvp, 50 quanta isn't achieved nearly as often as, say, against false gods, because pvp games are generally quite short in comparison.  Dissipation Shield/Field also takes a hit, since you won't be able to get those massive quanta pools anymore, but it's probably still usable.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 30, 2011, 11:53:58 am
First, let me say that on this list (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,25609.msg349339#msg349339) of the top 10 FG grinders, 7 use SoG, I would say 4 of those 7 are dependent upon them, the exception being the 3 RoL/Hope variants, which probably just function differently without it.  I agree the new patch provides several new deck ideas and options we are yet to see.
Well, I can see some winrates being reduced by this (especially vs Poison), but Voodoo, MonoAether, RoL Hope, Ghostal and Liquid Antimatter are definitely going to still be strong after the SoG nerf. Also, we'll probably see a SoSac poisondial stall soon on the top of that list. :/

Quote
Now, let me shift my focus entirely to PvP, as this is certainly where the meta and balancing matters most.  I want to bring up some "bigger picture" meta points that others have not yet brought into focus. *agreed*

The deflag nerf is needed.  However, this is also an indirect nerf to pvp rainbows, especially unupped.  What this means is that discord becomes stronger as people are more reliant upon monos and duos.  EQ also receives a buff, but I find that generally EQ is fairly balanced and can be worked around through quanta splits and intelligent playing.  All perms receive a soft buff via the rainbow nerf.  I believe among the most significant of these is Dim Shield.  One nice effect however, would be an indirect indirect buff to gravity and momentum.  In conclusion, I believe discord needs a nerf as a result of this patch.
I don't think so. Rainbow decks will be less strong, but you can expect to see them in War still thanks to the 3 upgrades (if you can run a deflag or two, you can run a nerfed Explosion or two). Unupped PvP (BL, tournaments) will be affected, though without War restriction you can play some Quantum Pillars to round up the quanta balance, and a 3-cost Deflagration is going to be playable at the very least. Upped rainbows won't even notice this (they will at worse convert their Lava Golem into another strong creature from another element, no problem here).
EQ recieves a very slight buff also through the nerf to Immolation, but again, EQ is counterable through smart playing and pillar/pend split. Discord? Discord has a lot of soft counters. It's a pain, true, but you can get around it if you want to, although it does slow down every opponent.
About the permanent buff, I expect Zanzarino to work on adding some other PC cards in the next patch (this has enough new cards already thanks to shards). We have a lot of possible ideas here in the CIA boards (off the top of my head I remember Touch of Midas, Vines, Windswept, Implosion, Avalanche). I think he will add new PC options also BECAUSE of the shards (PC is going to be more important with all those new nice permanents, especially repeatable PC and possibly some new forms of "mass PC", like the aforementioned Implosion and Avalanche). So I rest my faith in 1.30 for that. For now, you just need to think good Fire duos and good Darkness duos (Steal becomes much more intresting...). Also, for strong shields, as you noted there's momentum (which is, as of now, kind of underused).

Quote
Quanta cap at 50:  Goodbye most popular methods to stalling.  Except, I don't feel this actually does much to nerf firestall.  It will still be annoying as hell in arena, and it will still be annoying as hell in PvP.  It will simply be played as a troll deck now, with the possibility of killing through fahr.  It will still be strong.  Other bolt based decks will not.  Diss shield is pretty much unaffected.  Stone skin will not be "strong".  Stoneskin was pretty poor to start with, as you had to commit huge amounts of quanta to using it before.  It was made viable by sanc/miracle or poison.
It doesn't nerf firestall. Like, at all. A normal Firestall will still be very strong against a majority of decks. However, if you notice, it does introduce a whole new category of counters to Firestall: decks with massive healing, some PC, and hp-increasing cards. Like Shard of Divinity. You can no longer commit yourself to only Bolts and Fahrenheit for offense, because if you do, then your damage cap is not so high, and even moderate constant healing will outstall you, eventually. I can see a lot more Stall Faster-like decks (phoenixes coupled with high quanta flow, Fahrenheit and Bolts is a powerful all-around deck) but Stall Faster is not as strong as Firestall, in general, and is more prone to abuses. Heck, The Immortal is going to be considered a hard-counter to firestall...
I agree a rework of Stone Skin is needed. See my previous posts.

Quote
Which leads me to my final point.  How the meta will shift as a result to the quanta cap.  The major mechanic seen in "stalls" will now undoubtedly be poison (if you want to call poison a stall).  The nice thing about having a few effective stalls in the meta is that they are nice curveballs that prevent everyone from packing a ton of CC and shields.  These are already effective pvp strategies before removing powerful stalls.  I suppose purify receives an indirect buff as well.
I don't quite understand what you consider a stall, then, if you exclude "decks with a lot of shields and CC"...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: nilsieboy on September 30, 2011, 11:58:21 am
*leaves*
You can not leave Napalm: Elements needs you; besides,  if you leave you are going to miss the creation of the next fire card and that is the first item in my "to do" list after I am done with the shards.
ahh, was hoping for another grav card... x]
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on September 30, 2011, 12:12:08 pm
If for someone nerfing StoneSkin is a problem (for me it is still powerful card) we can easily add 50% more HP when Mark is Earth. Then SS still will be with 75HP.
But I don't think that 50HP is too low. This card cost only 1 :earth and can give half HP status. Heal cost 2 :life and give max 20. So SS is still powerful.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Kamietsu on September 30, 2011, 12:14:38 pm
I think it would be a little fun, if whatever mark you have, it would increase your quanta pool by 10 or something. Sure, that would mean Fire gets more quanta to play with, but it would also be a bit fun for the creativity side of things, especially for new cards in the future.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: kirchj33 on September 30, 2011, 12:27:56 pm
It doesn't nerf firestall. Like, at all. A normal Firestall will still be very strong against a majority of decks. However, if you notice, it does introduce a whole new category of counters to Firestall: decks with massive healing, some PC, and hp-increasing cards. Like Shard of Divinity. You can no longer commit yourself to only Bolts and Fahrenheit for offense, because if you do, then your damage cap is not so high, and even moderate constant healing will outstall you, eventually. I can see a lot more Stall Faster-like decks (phoenixes coupled with high quanta flow, Fahrenheit and Bolts is a powerful all-around deck) but Stall Faster is not as strong as Firestall, in general, and is more prone to abuses. Heck, The Immortal is going to be considered a hard-counter to firestall...
I agree a rework of Stone Skin is needed. See my previous posts.
Yep.  I feel like a reduction in fire bolt's damage may have been a better short term solution, but as zanz mentioned, it sounds like there's a bigger long term plan that needs a cap.
 
I don't quite understand what you consider a stall, then, if you exclude "decks with a lot of shields and CC"...
Meh.  I'd call those a form of 'control' decks, but everyone has their own definitions.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on September 30, 2011, 12:58:44 pm
fire lance + fahrenheit + 50 fire quanta cap

1st lance does 18 dmg
the rest all do 15 dmg = 75 dmg total
you are now at 44 fire quanta, so fahrenheit deals 13 dmg, but most likely you have at least 6 towers out, so that brings it back up to 15 dmg

grand total is 108 dmg



fire bolt + unupped fahrenheit + 50 fire quanta cap

1st bolt does 18 dmg
2nd - 4th does 15 dmg
5th and 6th do 12 dmg
you are now at 32 fire quanta, so fahrenheit deals 11 dmg, but most likely you have at least 3 pillars out, so that brings it up to 12 dmg

grand total is 99 dmg


These total damages mean nothing at all.  They would only happen if you played your fahrenheit ON THE TURN that you played all 6 bolts/lances.  So obviously playing a fahrenheit and having it deal damage will make it that much easier to kill with the bolts/lances.

Therefore, the only thing that changes, and not by much, is the use of SoG in firestalls.  Do you use a life mark?  Or do you go with lesser healing and a fire mark?
Firestall lives, muahahahahahahahaha!!!!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Mithcairion on September 30, 2011, 01:18:06 pm
If for someone nerfing StoneSkin is a problem (for me it is still powerful card) we can easily add 50% more HP when Mark is Earth. Then SS still will be with 75HP.
But I don't think that 50HP is too low. This card cost only 1 :earth and can give half HP status. Heal cost 2 :life and give max 20. So SS is still powerful.
How long does it take you to accumulate 50 :earth quanta vs. 2 :life quanta? :)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on September 30, 2011, 01:26:43 pm
@bucky: That's okay if firestall lives.  Immorush is a bigger problem, IMO, and the immolation/deflagration nerfs help there.

@kamietsu: That's a cool idea about having the mark modify your quanta cap.  I don't think 50 will be a very significant quanta cap for most decks, though, so maybe a slightly different effect based on mark might be better.  I like the idea about the mark changing things up a bit that way.

@atico: I suppose stoneskin isn't too bad at healing 50hp.  It's just that most of the time, it's going to heal much less, which is why it's balanced; if you want a really big hp gain, you have to keep it around as a dead card for a very long time first.

@mormegil: Pretty much agree with all that, though I think RoL/Hope might suffer somewhat from the 50 quanta cap, as it won't be able to build up quanta for fractaling dragons/archangels as easily.  I never played this deck much, after finding out it didn't make electrum as fast as my other decks, so I'm not sure if the 50 quanta cap will make a big difference on that deck or not.

The only decks that will be hurt significantly by the 50 quanta cap are those that rely on stockpiling a VERY large amount of quanta.  If you can get up to the 50 quanta cap, you probably have a lot of pillars/pends already out, and you won't be able to spend it fast enough.  Decks based on Fire/Ice Bolts/Lances, Drain/Siphon Life, Stoneskin, Fractal, and Dissipation Shield/Field are about the only ones I can think of that will be weakened in any significant way by this, and even there, it will be mostly in PvE; in PvP, 50 quanta is a lot rarer.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Antagon on September 30, 2011, 01:28:37 pm
the immolation-nerv is completely unnecessary, cause ash now also 0/5.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on September 30, 2011, 01:30:21 pm
*leaves*
You can not leave Napalm: Elements needs you; besides,  if you leave you are going to miss the creation of the next fire card and that is the first item in my "to do" list after I am done with the shards.
A new Fire card? I suppose they do have few cards compared to other elements ... will Aether be next?
I hope so. We got Mindgate fairly recently, but we're still at 15 cards along with Fire (the lowest amount of cards in any element).

I like the changes for being relatively drastic. Fire is still the most offensively powerful in Beta, so the changes have mostly just reduced the gap between other elements. Enabling more strategic options in the future through quanta pool increase is a nice touch.

Edit: I'm sad my Fractal Ball Lightnings with SoP has been destroyed though.. it improved Aether's ability to rush, but not too much. The strategies +1/+1 enabled aren't anywhere near overpowered, but very fun and different :>
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: EmeraldTiger on September 30, 2011, 01:32:33 pm
I say all the nerfs to :fire at one time makes the people that like the element feel like they are being attacked personally.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RavingRabbid on September 30, 2011, 01:35:20 pm
I like the nerfs to fire.
(Whatever, if people are hating them so much, it means they were needed).

I'm just sad my Ice Bolt otks are going to disappear, without giving an effective nerf to Firestall.
/goes ridin' Puffah fishes/
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: SnoWeb on September 30, 2011, 01:37:39 pm
I think it would be a little fun, if whatever mark you have, it would increase your quanta pool by 10 or something. Sure, that would mean Fire gets more quanta to play with, but it would also be a bit fun for the creativity side of things, especially for new cards in the future.
This is indeed a good idea. I would do a 40 (non-mark) + 50 (mark) cap. This would add some more strategy to the fire stall construct. Having a life mark (for SoG) or a light mark (for sanctuary) would lower the maximal strength of Fahrenheit.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on September 30, 2011, 01:51:59 pm
Aww, Fire and SoGs got nerfed more.... :(

SoR is basically a combination of it's two oldest forms now.
Not sure if I'm rolling too well with the Divinity change. It does cost other, but I liked the older beta version when it had a little more impact off-element.
SoP is fair enough - was so widely synergistic that cutting it down a bit really wasn't the end of the world. Still works well with Scorps.
As for the quanta cap:
I think it would be a little fun, if whatever mark you have, it would increase your quanta pool by 10 or something. Sure, that would mean Fire gets more quanta to play with, but it would also be a bit fun for the creativity side of things, especially for new cards in the future.
This is indeed a good idea. I would do a 40 (non-mark) + 50 (mark) cap. This would add some more strategy to the fire stall construct. Having a life mark (for SoG) or a light mark (for sanctuary) would lower the maximal strength of Fahrenheit.
If the cap really has to stay, I agree with Snoweb's suggestion (maybe even 50 + 50) - it gives more strength to mono-bolt stalls and allows the player to use off-element boltstalls effectively without feeling really limited by this new cap with the right cards.  It's also another variable that can used by Card Designers in their Ideas :) .

If anything, I would just make the cap a solid 100 or have no cap at all (do all the bolt spells have to suffer this much just because of Firestall?), and lower Fire Bolt's damage to 2 and give it a special effect like burn counters - but I'll keep playing with it for now.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: EmeraldTiger on September 30, 2011, 01:56:45 pm
Maybe we can get cards that change quanta caps.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on September 30, 2011, 02:01:24 pm
If for someone nerfing StoneSkin is a problem (for me it is still powerful card) we can easily add 50% more HP when Mark is Earth. Then SS still will be with 75HP.
But I don't think that 50HP is too low. This card cost only 1 :earth and can give half HP status. Heal cost 2 :life and give max 20. So SS is still powerful.
How long does it take you to accumulate 50 :earth quanta vs. 2 :life quanta? :)
You should ask how long does it take to accumulate 10 :earth, because SS cost 2x less than heal. All HP which is over 10-15 is a big bonus for this card in comparing with heal.

PS. Fire will be still the best element in game. 50 quantum is good compromise. It is rare situation when opponent has got >75 :fire. So making cap in 75 hasn't got any sense. For me Fire Lance is all the time one of the best cards in game.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: SnoWeb on September 30, 2011, 02:39:07 pm
I really think that forcing the mark to allow the maximum usefulness of the quanta accumulating cards is a smart solution. I tend to think that 40 for a normal cap + 40 bonus for your mark element is fair. Drain life and Stone skin decks can easily be played in mono or with their own mark. It only hinders firestalls, waterstalls played with either a life or light mark for more healing and expensive-creature-fractal-deck played with an aether mark. You might find a way around if you are smart and enjoy a higher cap of 80 for your bolts.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Antagon on September 30, 2011, 02:43:38 pm
with nerving the phoenix (ash now removable with 1 card: lightning or ragepot, first is often used in rainbows) i think there is really no need of nerving immolation (cause when using with photons, for example, you have a card-disadvantage, and with the weaker ash (maybe even 0/4) you just force the opponent to use his cc then at a certain time.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on September 30, 2011, 03:07:55 pm
quanta cap was perfect. *waits for the live version to see if he needs to lock his anti-bolt thread*

Honestly, what does it do aside from nerf firestall?

And yes, it does nerf firestall, now it will be necessary to use all your bolts if you want an OTK from 100 hp. You cant just use 5 or 4 once you gain a ton of quanta like you could before.

I REALLY like the idea of the mark impacting your maximum quanta pool. My idea...

Basic 50 Max
Raises maximum quanta pool of your mark by 50% (?) and mark cards could be used to raise quanta pool as well.
Lower the opposing elements quanta pool by cutting it in half. So a  :fire deck could only have 25  :water. Marks cards would impact this as well.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on September 30, 2011, 03:16:44 pm
kinda contradict yourself there when you said "im glad the caps are lower!" and then "we can use mark cards to increase the cap!"

it would only be practical if 1) more people had mark cards - otherwise a few people would be able to increase their caps while the majority could not. 
and 2) there were a way to control marks the way you control towers- otherwise people would plop down marks instead of towers to avoid PC.

i do like the idea of your mark impacting how much of each qaunta you have have for each element, such as 50,40,40,40,40, ... 40
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Shantu on September 30, 2011, 03:22:16 pm
I am guessing Zanz ran out of Shard ideas and is going to use quanta cap for one or two?

I don't like it. It nerfs all cards that rely on quanta-accumulation too much. Fire Bolt is warranted, but the others.. not really. Ice Bolt, Drain Life, Dissipation Shield (upped version will be 12 times better), Stone Skin.. none of those are even close to being too strong.

Everything else looks good. Immolation nerf's effect is going to be interesting.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: EmeraldTiger on September 30, 2011, 03:29:20 pm
:aether could be the shard that increases quanta cap. Shard of Energy maybe?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on September 30, 2011, 03:31:37 pm
:aether could be the shard that increases quanta cap. Shard of Energy maybe?
A generic Other card would probably suit it better. Some player would also prefer if Aether got an additional thematic theme beyond the Stars, Energy and Psionics theme
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on September 30, 2011, 03:33:38 pm
kinda contradict yourself there when you said "im glad the caps are lower!" and then "we can use mark cards to increase the cap!"
Not at all. I said I like there BEING a cap. Big difference.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on September 30, 2011, 03:53:14 pm
kinda contradict yourself there when you said "im glad the caps are lower!" and then "we can use mark cards to increase the cap!"

it would only be practical if 1) more people had mark cards - otherwise a few people would be able to increase their caps while the majority could not. 
and 2) there were a way to control marks the way you control towers- otherwise people would plop down marks instead of towers to avoid PC.

i do like the idea of your mark impacting how much of each qaunta you have have for each element, such as 50,40,40,40,40, ... 40
I don't think the suggestion had anything to do with marks the ultra-rares, but rather the free mark everybody picks for their deck.  Having mark cards add to that is a mistake without more ways to obtain mark cards, and even then, I think it would be a mistake because I'm fairly sure mark cards weren't intended to provide significant advantages; right now, their only real use is immunity to being targeted if they are stacking with your deck mark, and they don't even do that upgraded.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Wizardcat on September 30, 2011, 04:11:46 pm
New darkness background is still hideous, shards are still annoying, and Siphon Life gets a huge nerf because of the quanta cap. Really not looking forward to this patch.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on September 30, 2011, 04:35:31 pm
kinda contradict yourself there when you said "im glad the caps are lower!" and then "we can use mark cards to increase the cap!"
Not at all. I said I like there BEING a cap. Big difference.
ah, i see, i misread. 

still, i think a firm cap of 50 would be beneficial to the game overall, with a base cap of ~40.  if your starting mark increases it from 40->50, i think that would be interesting and the overall cap would not be too offputting to elements other than fire and darkness (lesser extent of impact to entropy, water and earth), which could use a kick in the groin anyway.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rgurgelles1 on September 30, 2011, 04:51:41 pm
is the new cards available in the bazaar?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: the dictator on September 30, 2011, 04:56:18 pm
Wow. 1.29 is going to be on a whole new level of Epic. As for the quanta cap. I like it. It's a good idea, however, I hope that if it gets put into effect, the cap is 75, not 50 or 100. 75 seems like a good number and keeps Stone Skin viable.
Pretty much what I wanted to say
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on September 30, 2011, 04:58:53 pm
Remember that most of players didn't read board, so complicated cap of quantum with using Marks will be unclear. 50 for all is easy and clear.
FireLances decks are still mega poweful, and maybe FireLance should cost more as someone wrote this here. Unupped Heal, Blessing, Explosion cost 3, Upped 2 (skill is the same). Unupped FireLance, DrainLife, IceBolt cost 3, so why upped cost 1, not 2?

It would be nice to add for players chart after login with list of changes.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Calindu on September 30, 2011, 05:01:59 pm
No, just no, zanz, if you really want to nerf fire bolt nerf fire bolt, firestall is annoying because of insane amount of CC.You just nerfed fractal and stone skin.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 30, 2011, 05:06:36 pm
No, just no, zanz, if you really want to nerf fire bolt nerf fire bolt, firestall is annoying because of insane amount of CC.You just nerfed fractal and stone skin.
Again, I don't agree with this sentiment. Stone Skin needs to be redesigned to implement a quanta cap at 50, but it's not impossible (see my previous suggestions). As for fractal, it's hardly a problem at all. If you get 50 quanta of your fractalled element, you'll get the rest in a couple more turns. Fractal dragons isn't really viable anyway, so I don't think this is a problem.

The same goes for a couple other cards (Ice Bolt, maybe Drain Life). Firestall is still out there, but the quanta cap does implement a new way to counter it (Stoneskin stalls, SoD stalls, both with good healing). Not really that bad of an addition. Also, it seems fun to play around with in new cards.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on September 30, 2011, 05:12:13 pm
is the new cards available in the bazaar?
No, you have to win the shards the same way you win other rares, either by rare spins for beating the arena enough times in a row, or by getting them from arena decks or pvp or FGs.  (though FGs don't currently have any shards in their decks)  You will be able to get the cards that have been changed from the bazaar, like Schrodinger's Cat or Immolation or Deflagration, just as you always have been able to.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on September 30, 2011, 05:19:47 pm
Fractal dragons isn't really viable anyway, so I don't think this is a problem.
I wish that was true so it wouldn't hit us so badly, but it's not. Fractal Bone Dragons in BoneBolt was one of the most versatile decks in War 3, and one of the best counters to both rushes and stalls combined (which helped a lot against Fire, ironically). With this cap, it will have a very hard time OTK'ing, which is disastrous for the deck type in general (includes all types of Aether/Light stalls).

I'm glad most Fractal decks don't need 50 quanta to work, but the cap has the potential to hurt them all since you can easily include a higher cost creature to Fractal in any Fractal deck to give it more stall-busting potential. This is extremely helpful in environments like War where having decks that can adapt is a huge advantage.

It would be smoother to nerf Fire Bolt directly, as the current cap reduces the amount of viable strategies in the game, making it less multi-layered and more RPS. If the intention was to nerf all pump spells, it would even then be easier to nerf them separately. However, if we get cards that can raise the quanta cap, the amount of strategies would increase right back again. I would prefer if it happened simultaneously with the cap, I will admit.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 30, 2011, 05:49:00 pm
Fractal dragons isn't really viable anyway, so I don't think this is a problem.
I wish that was true so it wouldn't hit us so badly, but it's not. Fractal Bone Dragons in BoneBolt was one of the most versatile decks in War 3, and one of the best counters to both rushes and stalls combined (which helped a lot against Fire, ironically). With this cap, it will have a very hard time OTK'ing, which is disastrous for the deck type in general (includes all types of Aether/Light stalls).

I'm glad most Fractal decks don't need 50 quanta to work, but the cap has the potential to hurt them all since you can easily include a higher cost creature to Fractal in any Fractal deck to give it more stall-busting potential. This is extremely helpful in environments like War where having decks that can adapt is a huge advantage.

It would be smoother to nerf Fire Bolt directly, as the current cap reduces the amount of viable strategies in the game, making it less multi-layered and more RPS. If the intention was to nerf all pump spells, it would even then be easier to nerf them separately. However, if we get cards that can raise the quanta cap, the amount of strategies would increase right back again. I would prefer if it happened simultaneously as the cap, I will admit.
Well, I think there is something to be said about this though. I agree that OTKing with bonebolt won't be possible anymore, but if you play 5 Bone Dragons in one go, followed by another one next turn, you're quite possibly 2TKing and don't miss THAT much. In fact, since at BEST you're getting 8 dragons from a Fractal, you're missing out on 3 of them, without considering those lost to dead cards in hand (other fractals, for instance) or similar. I don't think it's quite that drastic a nerf, really. However, I believe you have more experience than me in the matter. Question is, are the benefits of having a quanta cap more than its problems?

Cons: Firestall isn't really nerfed (although new counters to it are now possible). Ice Bolt OTK is no longer possible, as is Drain Life OTK (but :darkness gets Shard of Void). Stone Skin doesn't work well, but can be changed to work better with the cap. Dissipation Shield is practically untouched. Fractal Dragon decks are less effective.
Pros: we have a new toy to play with in card creation. Firestall got slightly nerfed.

EDIT: I should note that I, for one, like the quanta cap. But I'm starting to think people complaining have a reason to. :/
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RavingRabbid on September 30, 2011, 05:49:25 pm
And if... And if stoneskin gave 3 health every 2 :earth quanta?
It's even a buff!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on September 30, 2011, 05:58:22 pm
Fractal dragons isn't really viable anyway, so I don't think this is a problem.
I wish that was true so it wouldn't hit us so badly, but it's not. Fractal Bone Dragons in BoneBolt was one of the most versatile decks in War 3, and one of the best counters to both rushes and stalls combined (which helped a lot against Fire, ironically). With this cap, it will have a very hard time OTK'ing, which is disastrous for the deck type in general (includes all types of Aether/Light stalls).

I'm glad most Fractal decks don't need 50 quanta to work, but the cap has the potential to hurt them all since you can easily include a higher cost creature to Fractal in any Fractal deck to give it more stall-busting potential. This is extremely helpful in environments like War where having decks that can adapt is a huge advantage.

It would be smoother to nerf Fire Bolt directly, as the current cap reduces the amount of viable strategies in the game, making it less multi-layered and more RPS. If the intention was to nerf all pump spells, it would even then be easier to nerf them separately. However, if we get cards that can raise the quanta cap, the amount of strategies would increase right back again. I would prefer if it happened simultaneously as the cap, I will admit.
Well, I think there is something to be said about this though. I agree that OTKing with bonebolt won't be possible anymore, but if you play 5 Bone Dragons in one go, followed by another one next turn, you're quite possibly 2TKing and don't miss THAT much. In fact, since at BEST you're getting 8 dragons from a Fractal, you're missing out on 3 of them, without considering those lost to dead cards in hand (other fractals, for instance) or similar. I don't think it's quite that drastic a nerf, really. However, I believe you have more experience than me in the matter. Question is, are the benefits of having a quanta cap more than its problems?

Cons: Firestall isn't really nerfed (although new counters to it are now possible). Ice Bolt OTK is no longer possible, as is Drain Life OTK (but :darkness gets Shard of Void). Stone Skin doesn't work well, but can be changed to work better with the cap. Dissipation Shield is practically untouched. Fractal Dragon decks are less effective.
Pros: we have a new toy to play with in card creation. Firestall got slightly nerfed.

EDIT: I should note that I, for one, like the quanta cap. But I'm starting to think people complaining have a reason to. :/
Yes, one application of Fractal Dragons decks still work, and that is 2TK. Unfortunately, against two RoF's and Miracle, that's not possible. The OTK potential is ruined, which can hurt any Fractal deck, but they're still strong. So no, it's not that drastic.

But as others have mentioned, the cap also hurts all the other pump spells, and they are generally accepted to be balanced. I think there's a more elegant solution to be found.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: GG on September 30, 2011, 06:17:02 pm
A huge nerf to fire, fractal, stone skin, drain life, and stuff like dragon OTK...

I agree with increasing the quanta cap to 75 at least. Stone Skin's pretty nice as it is and don't think it's necessary to nerf it back to max 50 just because of the new quanta cap.

Some issues:

1. I guess just like max HP that goes over 500, u can accumulate more than 50 quanta but it changes back down to 50 at the end of the turn?

2. (as mentioned above) What's gonna happen to stone skin?

3. DECAY? He's already one of the weakest gods :(

4. Good bye Firestall >:D
 (and bonebolt and drain life pestal and OTK dragon and blahblahblah)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rastafla on September 30, 2011, 06:57:19 pm
I like the update. But i also thinks 50 is too low. 75 to enable a better icebolt and drain life and fractal dragons would be perfect.

Keep a larger quanta pool and still have a balanced firebolt at the same time? Implement the cap in the card like SS already did with its 75 hp. Each firebolt could be capped at 50, any extra quanta you have is ignored. Now only the first firebolt will do max dmg at full quanta.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: majofa on September 30, 2011, 06:58:25 pm
[11:56:15] majofa: so, if zanz can cap stone skin, why can't he cap fire bolt and fahrenheit?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rastafla on September 30, 2011, 07:01:45 pm
[11:56:15] majofa: so, if zanz can cap stone skin, why can't he cap fire bolt and fahrenheit?
I know this point have been raised before but with search disabled I have no idea who made it first. I know the suggestion have been around for more than a year though. Dont know why it have not caught on.

Edit: My guess is the popularity of fire and people want their powerful decks more than fixes.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Sevs on September 30, 2011, 07:02:13 pm
3. DECAY? He's already one of the weakest gods :(

Divine Glory too, with such unexpected fire production now having to wait 2 turn for an explosion will be much easier i think

I feel like the quanta pool limit should at least be 100 still small enough to prevent the bolt  OTK but at least gives the option to fractal high cost creatures

And fire was OP because it had the option to stall and rush, now with the nerf to both, i find it might not be able to do either.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on September 30, 2011, 07:02:52 pm
I'm just going to assume this, just because there is no actual evidence to back up any of the complaints.  None or very few to none of the complainers have gone into the beta trainer and actually tested out these decks that are supposedly ruined.  Test your decks under the new changes, take stats, then complain if they are really really bad. 

Quanta cap is good, and instead of cards that increase, why not cards to decrease, or even shut off production of an element for X amount of turns.  Have one of the unmade shards with that effect, and have the quanta section as 12 individual boxes targetable and each time quanta would be gained, the caster of the shard instead gains quanta for the element the shard represents. 

TEST, THEN COMPLAIN, not the other way around.  Slowing some decks down by a turn or two is not a bad thing, especially when they are 4 turn killers.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on September 30, 2011, 07:05:11 pm
so with the immonerf and quanta cap, the two most newbie friendly grind decks are pretty severely weakened.  shame, i only recently managed to grind up enough to buy RoL/Hope and now it'll barely work anymore.

ok barely work is probably too harsh, but it is weakened quite a bit.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on September 30, 2011, 07:08:32 pm
so with the immonerf and quanta cap, the two most newbie friendly grind decks are pretty severely weakened.  shame, i only recently managed to grind up enough to buy RoL/Hope and now it'll barely work anymore.

ok barely work is probably too harsh, but it is weakened quite a bit.
I may be foolish but how is RoL/Hope harmed? Sure you can only play 4|3 of the dragons per turn but is that a problem?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on September 30, 2011, 07:13:00 pm
i dont think i like that quanta cap.. the rest im ok with but capping that quanta.. just seems like a giant nerf to the whole game. i personally dont use firestalls or fractal etc to spam large dragons and what not but 50 seems just little too low. as mentioned stone skin is now limited.. and you have to play it before you play anything else to get the max usage.. which is still 50 - cost of SS? or does it factor in the cost of itself ? so then max is what 48? or 49? 
according to the bolt calculator 50 quanta + 6 bolts is 93 damage.. so no more OTKs.. fine.. im ok with that.. if you bump the cap to 75.. u can do 144 damage.. so i dont think the cap is quite a good idea.. just make firebolt do 1 less damage per 10 quanta? that seems to be a better option to me..
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: TheForbiddenOracle on September 30, 2011, 07:14:22 pm
so with the immonerf and quanta cap, the two most newbie friendly grind decks are pretty severely weakened.  shame, i only recently managed to grind up enough to buy RoL/Hope and now it'll barely work anymore.

ok barely work is probably too harsh, but it is weakened quite a bit.
I may be foolish but how is RoL/Hope harmed? Sure you can only play 4|3 of the dragons per turn but is that a problem?
Yes, especially against Miracle using Fake Gods since they Miracle at ~50hp, 3 Light Dragons would only produce 39 and therefore you just have to spam and hope for the best.

make firebolt do 1 less damage per 10 quanta? that seems to be a better option to me..
Then it will be weaker than Ice Lance.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on September 30, 2011, 07:31:36 pm
Use SoP in rol/hope decks, just adding 2 and using them when you have a full field is +46 dmg.  See what I did just there, I came up with a solution to a problem.  Now someone try firestall.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Sevs on September 30, 2011, 07:32:18 pm
make firebolt do 1 less damage per 10 quanta? that seems to be a better option to me..
Then it will be weaker than Ice Lance.
that would be cool to reduce it to 2HP/10 quanta and to give it a "burn" side effect that kinda acts like poisoning of a creature

Use SoP in rol/hope decks, just adding 2 and using them when you have a full field is +46 dmg.  See what I did just there, I came up with a solution to a problem.  Now someone try firestall.
but it ruins the surprise element of fractal essentially getting around miracle. with the turn delay, there is no surprise allowing miracle to be used. not fixed
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on September 30, 2011, 07:35:52 pm
so with the immonerf and quanta cap, the two most newbie friendly grind decks are pretty severely weakened.  shame, i only recently managed to grind up enough to buy RoL/Hope and now it'll barely work anymore.

ok barely work is probably too harsh, but it is weakened quite a bit.
I may be foolish but how is RoL/Hope harmed? Sure you can only play 4|3 of the dragons per turn but is that a problem?
Yes, especially against Miracle using Fake Gods since they Miracle at ~50hp, 3 Light Dragons would only produce 39 and therefore you just have to spam and hope for the best.

make firebolt do 1 less damage per 10 quanta? that seems to be a better option to me..
Then it will be weaker than Ice Lance.
not just that.  before, you could save up quanta for a long time, say you have 2 fractals in hand and are waiting for your first dragon, you build up ~150 quanta and get the dragon, play it, fractar, play them all.  next turn, fractal again and get a few more.  now you will at best be able to play 4 dragons after a fractal, no matter how long you have been waiting to draw one.  you play the four, and then have to wait another turn (or maybe even 2) just to play 1 more.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Jenkar on September 30, 2011, 07:37:57 pm
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/th_popcorncat.gif)

I hate this patch more and more as time passes by.Sogs nerf ruins both my fg grinders,fire nerf ruins so many pvp (upped and unupped decks like immophoenix),explosion is no longer splashable in nova-war decks.
Lovely,
 How about increasing graboid cost to 5,dim shield to 10,remove draw from sundial,increase poison to 3,half the damage of catapult,decrease sanctuary to 2 healing,make animate weapon cost air  quanta,increase hourglass to 6 and generally remove every fun thing that exists in this game and call it balance fix?
So, you're sugesting an immaterial no-counter phase shields?
Cards change. Your reaction is extremely similar from what i've read in threads complaning about the sundial nerf (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,1541.0.html) (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,1541.0.html)). Kinda like a kid happily watching telie for hours, then complaining about being sent outside by his parents.
Bottom line : Wait to see how it will settle. Because it will settle again, and be pushed forwards again. Because that's how games evolve.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on September 30, 2011, 07:39:35 pm
make firebolt do 1 less damage per 10 quanta? that seems to be a better option to me..
Then it will be weaker than Ice Lance.
And it will be problem? Fire as element is too powerful. It has got the best PC, the best CC, growthing creatures etc.
Water hasn't got PC, so I didn't see problem when IceBolt is better than FireLance. Fire don't need the best cards in every comparision.
Shockwave is also weaker than Thunderbolt in 90% games, some dragons too, and it isn't problem.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on September 30, 2011, 07:41:42 pm
how is it weaker than ice lance? wouldnt it be the same? how many Water stalls do you see rampaging arena and pvp? not too many.. people will still use firestalls but it wont be as fast nor as effective as it is now.. big deal. maybe that will get new ideas for cards and new decks emerging? i think the lower damage of 1 on fire lance is better than capping off the quanta.. or at least cap it higher than 50.. the explosion nerf.. i made a topic about and it came out that the majority said 3|2 cost was best in polls.. oh man it costs 1 more than before.. not a deck ruiner, just means you have to manage your quanta better.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ~Napalm on September 30, 2011, 07:57:20 pm
Ice Bolt can freeze creatures/weapons. However, if Fire Bolt had a CHANCE to hit 3 dmg rather than 2, It shouldn't be an issue. In fact, it'd be more of a gamble that way. Making it more fun altogether.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on September 30, 2011, 08:22:00 pm
well give firebolt the chance to burn then like others have said? damage over time instead of the otk 3 damage version we have now..
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 30, 2011, 08:24:34 pm
Another possible change for Fire Bolt: starting higher damage, increase of 2. For instance, starting at 3-4 damage and gaining 2 more for every 10 quanta. Grows like a Bolt, starts like a Shockwave: strong versatile CC with its own perk as a Bolt spell.

Of course, I personally like the quanta cap best, but I think I said that enough times already. :P
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: MatrimKK on September 30, 2011, 08:26:54 pm
Interest ideas to the fact that firebolt has been suggested at 2 damage per 10 quanta interests me...
For those that argue that this makes it weaker than water/dark bolts they also don't attack nearly as fast as whole when considering mono elements nor do they feature so much hard creature control.  This could clearly add to the solution of some firestall variants having soooo much CC. 

I still think a diminishing returns would effect the game better than a quanta cap, but a testing I am going. 

To those that think 4 ttw decks need to be slowed down (aka immo nerf) dejadrena vu is quite consistent with 4~5 turn wins with SoR in it's current form.  Immo decks clearly had a much worse fail to launch %. 

Also I would like to suggest perhaps testing some of the changes separate from one another to see how each exactly effects deck building and how it helps/hurts in it's own right.  So many at a time can detract from findings on each individual change. 

@ Morm starting with more damage clearly adds to the hate of firestalls making it near impossible to play creatures against
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 30, 2011, 08:29:37 pm
Interest ideas to the fact that firebolt has been suggested at 2 damage per 10 quanta interests me...
For those that argue that this makes it weaker than water/dark bolts they also don't attack nearly as fast as whole when considering mono elements nor do they feature so much hard creature control.  This could clearly add to the solution of some firestall variants having soooo much CC. 

I still think a diminishing returns would effect the game better than a quanta cap, but a testing I am going. 

To those that think 4 ttw decks need to be slowed down (aka immo nerf) dejadrena vu is quite consistent with 4~5 turn wins with SoR in it's current form.  Immo decks clearly had a much worse fail to launch %. 

Also I would like to suggest perhaps testing some of the changes separate from one another to see how each exactly effects deck building and how it helps/hurts in it's own right.  So many at a time can detract from findings on each individual change.
Dejadrenavus is consistent if you don't use momentum? If not, then shields are going to be it's major problem. If yes, then people will actually start playing Thunderstorm for fast mass CC :3 it is funny.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RootRanger on September 30, 2011, 08:44:05 pm
I really, really like these changes. Fire was too imbalanced. SoP was strong and I like how SoR is unique to Adrenaline.

I hate this patch more and more as time passes by.Sogs nerf ruins both my fg grinders,fire nerf ruins so many pvp (upped and unupped decks like immophoenix),explosion is no longer splashable in nova-war decks.
Lovely,
 How about increasing graboid cost to 5,dim shield to 10,remove draw from sundial,increase poison to 3,half the damage of catapult,decrease sanctuary to 2 healing,make animate weapon cost air  quanta,increase hourglass to 6 and generally remove every fun thing that exists in this game and call it balance fix?
FG grinding hardly suffers. The best FG grinders work fine without SoGs.
Immophoenix is less powerful, which is a very good thing. It allows a lot of decks to become viable in PvP, and not just a few (mostly fire) decks at the top. Novagrabby was also too strong (so many war teams had one). The new metagame will be more diverse and interesting.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on September 30, 2011, 08:48:29 pm
I really, really like these changes. Fire was too imbalanced. SoP was strong and I like how SoR is unique to Adrenaline.

I hate this patch more and more as time passes by.Sogs nerf ruins both my fg grinders,fire nerf ruins so many pvp (upped and unupped decks like immophoenix),explosion is no longer splashable in nova-war decks.
Lovely,
 How about increasing graboid cost to 5,dim shield to 10,remove draw from sundial,increase poison to 3,half the damage of catapult,decrease sanctuary to 2 healing,make animate weapon cost air  quanta,increase hourglass to 6 and generally remove every fun thing that exists in this game and call it balance fix?
FG grinding hardly suffers. The best FG grinders work fine without SoGs.
the most accessible one (RoL/Hope) doesnt work fine with a 50 quanta cap though.  also, the oracle FG thread relies on firebolt sudden killer for a few of the FGs, and that will no longer work.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Bhlewos on September 30, 2011, 08:48:58 pm
To add to the alternative firebolt nerf suggestions:

I'd like to see something similar to the catapult equation for firebolt. This fits with the diminishing returns Matrim suggested a few pages ago, and would also be a sort of "middle ground" between the quanta cap and the original formula.

Below is 1) the Catapult formula for comparison, 2) the original Firebolt formula, and 3) my proposed equation for the Firebolt card.

(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/BhlewosAQW/ElementsTheGame/fireboltNerf.png)

If we draw an imaginary line at the 50 point (quanta cap), the current Firebolt would deal 15 damage, whereas the new Firebolt would deal 16 (16.67, but rounded down like with the Catapult formula). This might seem more powerful at first, but beyond the 50 mark the damage increase decreases very quickly, so that by 100 quanta it deals only 20 damage, compared to the current Firebolt which would deal 33 at 100 quanta.

This is what I propose instead of a quanta cap. This allows Stone Skin and Fractal to continue to be used to the fullest, but still nerf Firebolt so that it doesn't rack up damage so quickly. Compared to Catapult, which requires at least a two-card setup (three for Catatitans), and is vulnerable to both PC and CC, the direct damage Firebolt which only requires the card itself and enough quanta should have a much "weaker" formula. It also doesn't "reward" the player for blindly hitting spacebar until they reach a certain limit, and instead encourage them to think -- something that Firestall decks don't require much of.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on September 30, 2011, 08:53:36 pm
how about keeping the damage as is, but only letting it hit players?  the biggest problems with firestall is the sheer versatility of all of the cards.  if they had to rely on firestorm or other elements for CC, it would be a small but significant nerf.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: aqwsz0 on September 30, 2011, 08:54:15 pm
for the 50 max cap quanta, why not make it 75.  Will actually make stone skin better. 
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on September 30, 2011, 09:12:13 pm
its been said before, stone skin can be changed to account for the change in quanta cap.

on another note, minor phoenix immo rush still works great, it just doesnt super power firebolts so much.  take the lava destroyers and be happy with it.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on September 30, 2011, 09:15:42 pm
its been said before, stone skin can be changed to account for the change in quanta cap.

on another note, minor phoenix immo rush still works great, it just doesnt super power firebolts so much.  take the lava destroyers and be happy with it.
unless you cant afford upgrades yet.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Essence on September 30, 2011, 09:31:10 pm
Quote
TEST, THEN COMPLAIN, not the other way around.
QFT.  That said, without any testing done on my part, I'm for all of these changes except the quanta cap.  My kneejerk uninformed reaction is that it should be 100.

Now I'll go test. :)

First result: Deja Vu skill acts oddly; you can't use it just once if you want to.  The first click does nothing, then the second click produces 2 Deja Vus.  End Result: Little Miss Fire just went into overdrive. :)  You cannot TU a Readied Deja Vu and use it on the same turn; the TU still has a 0 cost but isn't Ready. The two-uses doesn't transfer over either; the next turn it just activates as normal. There is no way to use multiple SoRs to activate a Deja Vu more than twice in one turn, no matter when you cast the SoR relative to activating the 2 Deja Vu clicks.

All told: A+ on the SoR.  Is good.


Second Result: SoSac.

Is good!  I was surprised; I didn't think it would work out, but it's good for one simple reason: the life loss is now large enough that you have to activate it relatively early in the game even if your opponent doesn't have huge damage out -- and if they don't, you might not regain all of the life you lost over the two turns it's in effect. You can now relatively easily counter SoSac just by putting out 16 points of tough-to-kill damage and leaving it there. :)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on September 30, 2011, 09:42:20 pm
its been said before, stone skin can be changed to account for the change in quanta cap.

on another note, minor phoenix immo rush still works great, it just doesnt super power firebolts so much.  take the lava destroyers and be happy with it.
unless you cant afford upgrades yet.
yeah, thats a problem with the game as a whole, so you can say that about just about every deck that isnt labeled "unupped".  everyone else has put the time in, so basically you have to too.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on September 30, 2011, 09:46:37 pm
its been said before, stone skin can be changed to account for the change in quanta cap.

on another note, minor phoenix immo rush still works great, it just doesnt super power firebolts so much.  take the lava destroyers and be happy with it.
unless you cant afford upgrades yet.
yeah, thats a problem with the game as a whole, so you can say that about just about every deck that isnt labeled "unupped".  everyone else has put the time in, so basically you have to too.
yeah but with every other deck you could say "build immorush and grind AI3s until you can afford a semiupped deck.  you cant say that anymore.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: TheManuz on September 30, 2011, 10:10:27 pm
yeah but with every other deck you could say "build immorush and grind AI3s until you can afford a semiupped deck.  you cant say that anymore.
I believe immorush would still work, only in different forms. And other rushes will appear, thanks to new cards.
No need to worry!  ;D
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on September 30, 2011, 10:18:35 pm
i grinded with grab/shrieker rush, you can too.

also, i just played with a pillarless unupped immo photon destroyer deck, it still works against ai 3.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on September 30, 2011, 10:31:28 pm
its been said before, stone skin can be changed to account for the change in quanta cap.

on another note, minor phoenix immo rush still works great, it just doesnt super power firebolts so much.  take the lava destroyers and be happy with it.
unless you cant afford upgrades yet.
yeah, thats a problem with the game as a whole, so you can say that about just about every deck that isnt labeled "unupped".  everyone else has put the time in, so basically you have to too.
yeah but with every other deck you could say "build immorush and grind AI3s until you can afford a semiupped deck.  you cant say that anymore.
Youre also forgetting the VERY LARGE CHANGE that helps newbies. Aka, shards being usable unupped. That more than makes up for the immorush not being as powerful.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: aqwsz0 on September 30, 2011, 10:47:07 pm
its been said before, stone skin can be changed to account for the change in quanta cap.

on another note, minor phoenix immo rush still works great, it just doesnt super power firebolts so much.  take the lava destroyers and be happy with it.
unless you cant afford upgrades yet.
yeah, thats a problem with the game as a whole, so you can say that about just about every deck that isnt labeled "unupped".  everyone else has put the time in, so basically you have to too.
yeah but with every other deck you could say "build immorush and grind AI3s until you can afford a semiupped deck.  you cant say that anymore.
Youre also forgetting the VERY LARGE CHANGE that helps newbies. Aka, shards being usable unupped. That more than makes up for the immorush not being as powerful.
Yeah.  For newbs, when they get a shard, they dont have to play that long to get the upgrade that helps a bit, either way, upped or not, it helps everyone.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on September 30, 2011, 11:18:06 pm
its been said before, stone skin can be changed to account for the change in quanta cap.

on another note, minor phoenix immo rush still works great, it just doesnt super power firebolts so much.  take the lava destroyers and be happy with it.
unless you cant afford upgrades yet.
yeah, thats a problem with the game as a whole, so you can say that about just about every deck that isnt labeled "unupped".  everyone else has put the time in, so basically you have to too.
yeah but with every other deck you could say "build immorush and grind AI3s until you can afford a semiupped deck.  you cant say that anymore.
Youre also forgetting the VERY LARGE CHANGE that helps newbies. Aka, shards being usable unupped. That more than makes up for the immorush not being as powerful.
[/quote]

yeah thats defnitely gonna help.  make up for?  possibly.  i am just pointing out that these changes majorly cripple two of the most newbie friendly grinder decks
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on September 30, 2011, 11:21:04 pm
"destroyer yes, golemn? not so much."

yes, golem.  my apologies for using the wrong name despite having stated unupped.  ::)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RootRanger on September 30, 2011, 11:21:15 pm
A decrease in grinding deck strength is an extremely small cost for a better metagame. And have you all forgotten that Arena was released the update before this? Arena was extremely helpful to grinding, especially with new rares coming out. It makes sense that grinding can be a little bit harder this update after Arena made grinding easier.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: willng3 on September 30, 2011, 11:23:08 pm
i grinded with grab/shrieker rush, you can too.

also, i just played with a pillarless unupped immo photon destroyer deck, it still works against ai 3.
destroyer yes, golemn? not so much.
Um that's still more than possible.  In fact, there's a second deck here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17173.0.html) that while it is more vulnerable, still serves as an adequate substitute for Grabbix against AI3.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on September 30, 2011, 11:23:35 pm
good point, arena gives you coin while youre sleeping if you set up a halfway decent deck.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: furballdn on September 30, 2011, 11:29:38 pm
3. DECAY? He's already one of the weakest gods :(

False gods don't play by our rules!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on September 30, 2011, 11:30:11 pm
"destroyer yes, golemn? not so much."

yes, golem.  my apologies for using the wrong name despite having stated unupped.  ::)
yeah thats why i deleted it from my post within a minute, but people had already managed to reply.  ill stick by my point that RoL/Hope is crippled though.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on September 30, 2011, 11:57:50 pm
A decrease in grinding deck strength is an extremely small cost for a better metagame. And have you all forgotten that Arena was released the update before this? Arena was extremely helpful to grinding, especially with new rares coming out. It makes sense that grinding can be a little bit harder this update after Arena made grinding easier.
I agree with the first point here, and to a degree with the second.  The Arena definitely made score easier to grind, but I think rares were easier to get from all the t50 farms that used to be posted.  You can get upped rares from the arena, so that might be what rootranger meant here.

And for newbies who want to grind ai3, I found a monolife deck did fairly well.  6 frogs, 6 cocks, 6 adrenaline, and a druid staff that was my newbie quest reward rare.  Really, REALLY boring, but it did alright.  I started with a life deck when I joined, so that's why I ended up with that deck, but there's several different decks that should be pretty good at ai3 even with these changes.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: aqwsz0 on October 01, 2011, 12:14:12 am
which do you prefer? 

Elements 1.28 (this one)
Elements 1.29 (in beta)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RootRanger on October 01, 2011, 12:16:38 am
which do you prefer? 

Elements 1.28 (this one)
Elements 1.29 (in beta)
Is this even a question?
1.29, of course.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Essence on October 01, 2011, 12:43:02 am
^^ this.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on October 01, 2011, 12:50:37 am
A decrease in grinding deck strength is an extremely small cost for a better metagame. And have you all forgotten that Arena was released the update before this? Arena was extremely helpful to grinding, especially with new rares coming out. It makes sense that grinding can be a little bit harder this update after Arena made grinding easier.
i dont know, considering how much grinding one has to do before they can even start worrying about the metagame.  arena is only helpful for grinding if you can win consistently, even bronze decks can prove too tough for a newbie, especially if they find the decks they have been using against AIs arent remotely effective, and they cant afford to buy more cards.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rutarete on October 01, 2011, 12:58:10 am
I like the new update, very much. Don't know about the 50 cap, though. On the whole, good job zanz!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Post on October 01, 2011, 01:10:27 am
First off, I just have to say that what I'm seeing is very encouraging.

Love:
Mixed:
lack of permanent control at this time. I would strongly recommend holding off on this until more counter-permanent options are introduced to the game.Love the concept behind SoV. However, when juxtaposed with Poison, it clearly is not balanced. Effect should probably be set to 1/2, or at the very least 1/3. Or, buff Poison, but that sounds like a bad idea.Love the concept of Shard of Serendipity. However, once again this game underestimates the power of drawing. I was hoping it would be a random draw between 1-3, but it always provides 3 cards. This will basically be in almost every Rainbow deck. Either change it to 2 cards, or make it a random 1-3. While I think these two changes might weaken it a tad too much, 3 is definitely too many, and a cost increase really wouldn't even this out.Shard of Patience still buffs too much. The attack and defense does not need to be the same number. The 1/0 change is great.  I would suggest the water buffs be changed to 2/1 and 2/5. It still buffs water while keeping unflooded creatures within killing range, and makes sense for flooded water creatures (difficult to attack them, but also not that easy for them to attack you).[/list]
Concerns:
especially Dune Scorpion need to be revisited, though I can't think of a solution at this moment. I believe this absolutely needs to be addressed.With the introduction of more cards, I think now would be a good time to increase the electrum rewards.I feel Miracle/SoS should either inverse the healing (difference between HP before and after) that would have been done, or the text should be changed.This is minor though, as no one will ever use them together.[/list]
Last request:

Please reduce Quicksand to 2 Pillars!

Quote of this thread:

Use SoP in rol/hope decks, just adding 2 and using them when you have a full field is +46 dmg.  See what I did just there, I came up with a solution to a problem.  Now someone try firestall.
My emphasis.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on October 01, 2011, 01:21:09 am
Concerns:
    With the introduction of SoP, the power of Deathstalker and
especially Dune Scorpion need to be revisited, though I can't think of a solution at this moment. I believe this absolutely needs to be addressed.[/list]
Increase the cost of both scorpions by 1 might be sufficient. (based on the cost relation between the 3 scorpions prior to SoP)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Pineapple on October 01, 2011, 01:24:55 am
I'd rather immolation to remain at at least 7 utility quanta produced, but force it to not be zero-cost (which is quite a buff, because then you can make psn-immo decks). Something like Immolation - 2 :fire - Gain 10 :fire, 1 per every other; Cremation - 1 :fire - Gain 10 :fire, 1 per every other would be fine, even though it now gives 1 phoenix and 1 rebirth.
Taking away the pillarless immo-phoenix aspect is a bit of a thematic nerf to phoenix..
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Shantu on October 01, 2011, 06:20:50 am
Concerns:
    With the introduction of SoP, the power of Deathstalker and
especially Dune Scorpion need to be revisited, though I can't think of a solution at this moment. I believe this absolutely needs to be addressed.[/list]
Increase the cost of both scorpions by 1-2 might be sufficient. (based on the cost relation between the 3 scorpions prior to SoP)
I don't think increasing their cost is a good idea. Without SoaP, they are still as mediocre-good as they were, mainly because of their '2 for 1' nature. SoaP is good because you need only one buff card to buff several scorpions at once - however, you are losing a turn with it. And the chance of not drawing the buff but quanta/scorps only is still there as well.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RRQJ on October 01, 2011, 06:39:41 am
you only need one dune scorpion to do the job.  After that, they're just like a forest scorpion.  I don't see how shard of patience overpowers them.  I'd rather use momentum (ignore shield and don't have to wait a turn). For deathstalker, the combo with eclipse is similar and I don't think it is overpowered.  With eclipse, you need a duo, but you don't have to wait a turn.  With the shard, you can make it a mono, but you need to wait a turn.  I guess the shard's stackability might be problematic...but you'd need two, ideally three, shards so most shields won't block the attacks.  That's a significant number of cards needed for the combo (assuming three deathstalkers) that also requires a one turn wait.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on October 01, 2011, 06:42:43 am
Concerns:
    With the introduction of SoP, the power of Deathstalker and
especially Dune Scorpion need to be revisited, though I can't think of a solution at this moment. I believe this absolutely needs to be addressed.[/list]
Increase the cost of both scorpions by 1-2 might be sufficient. (based on the cost relation between the 3 scorpions prior to SoP)
Do not agree. If you play with the card a bit, you know that SoaP, while being mono, doesn't really have the same punch as Unstoppable, nor Chaos Power and is not even as good as Blessing. You are paying a whole turn of CC vulnerability for a mono buff. It's balanced.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Snopel on October 01, 2011, 09:49:00 am
Why is Immolation nerfed? It's fine as it is. o_0
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rastafla on October 01, 2011, 09:52:55 am
Why is Immolation nerfed? It's fine as it is. o_0
No it isnt. It accelerates fire by such a huge margin that noone can compete. Cremation is fine at 8 or 9 since its upped.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on October 01, 2011, 09:57:22 am
I think people are over thinking this update too much and not testing quite enough.  I have not been grinding at all, I have only been playing on the beta trainer and I can tell you right now, the only card that is really OP is SoPe.  If you happen to get 2 supernovas in your opening hand, and 2 SoPe and 2 entropy towers or pends, plus w/e else, that is like 11 cards in your first turn, some of which you might be able to play right away. 

All the cards that received changes are not affected as much as everyone is whining about.  They are working just fine for me.  Mind you this is against the AI, but that is fine.  The game vs other players will be far more interesting with the changes.  They are not game breaking changes, but they are sufficient enough to get people to start thinking about other uses for cards and using other combos and cards they never use.  Suck it up, I've tested, and approve of all the new cards and changes.

Immolation/Cremation - fire still has the fastest start out of any element, and you can still get 3 destroyers out first turn with 2 cremations

Ash/Ash - now 0/5 instead of 0/7, so now it takes 2 attacks to kill it instead of 3, while most other creatures are still only 1

Deflagration/Explosion - cost increase by 1 for upped and unupped, still cheaper than steal, and its fire, remember the first card I talked about, ya, still fast PC

Schrödinger's Cat/Schrödinger's Cat - no one uses it anyway, good buff? 

All the shards are fine now.  I tested before, commented, they were changed, tested, they are better, more balanced.  SoS is a gamble in conventional decks, but could be used in some creative ways.  SoPa slows you down for a turn, so unless you use a few at a time, you will only slow yourself down on multiple turns.  Obvious use is fractal and scorpions, but try a water deck with flooding for the +4/+4, 5/5 squids is nothing to gawk at.

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/170/456474931_0356ba4a8d.jpg)




Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ralouf on October 01, 2011, 10:07:30 am
Bucky is used to say crap but this time I rather agree with him !
Just one think about the SoPe : it MAY be OP depend of your luck but if you get 3 dune scorp and you don't play buff it is rather crappy..

This update seems actually good and I really hope this will be released soon. (I'm just a little doubtful about the quanta cap..)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: stylish777 on October 01, 2011, 10:40:33 am
Would it be better if the 'Band' was on the right side of the title instead of the left?
^This

And i miss the purty shiny darkness  :-[

Also, im not sure if anyone has posted this and/or if it's supposed to be this way or if it's a bug (still trying to get up to speed with the new update and the comments made in this topic), but i noticed that with a False God the Shard of Void takes 2HP of our max HP EVERY turn.
I assume it counts the mark or cards drawn, but I don't believe that should be counted as three turns. If it is, then either the card text should be changed or all towers in the FG's field should be counted three times aswell (wich i think would be great for our arena deck  :P). If it's not, then the SoV should not take 2 HP of our max every turn when playing versus someone with a triple mark or triple draw.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ÃœberTurtleTime on October 01, 2011, 10:51:01 am
When will the new patch be released?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Kamietsu on October 01, 2011, 11:27:40 am
When will the new patch be released?
Probably sometime around the future. I could be wrong. I've been wrong before.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on October 01, 2011, 11:42:17 am
This update seems actually good and I really hope this will be released soon. (I'm just a little doubtful about the quanta cap..)
Well, now that Shards have been tested and (mostly) approved (some doubts on Shard of Sacrifice still, but I believe what others have said and it seems likely to be avoidable. Still scary concept, but it may be overreacting on my part) I think we are ready to see the other ones, so AFTER that and AFTER they have been tested, there will be the release. I think.

We are still missing out on the shards for :aether, :air, :earth, :fire and :gravity.
:aether is most likely going to be the magical damage zapper, although I'm not a fan of the concept (we already have one "damaging" shard, plus it'd be cool if it did something divergent).
The rest are more of a mystery. Personally, I think Gravity should get something that increases its stall capacity. A better shield would be perfect, but even a stall Shard would be great...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: TheManuz on October 01, 2011, 12:05:04 pm
This update seems actually good and I really hope this will be released soon. (I'm just a little doubtful about the quanta cap..)
Well, now that Shards have been tested and (mostly) approved (some doubts on Shard of Sacrifice still, but I believe what others have said and it seems likely to be avoidable. Still scary concept, but it may be overreacting on my part) I think we are ready to see the other ones, so AFTER that and AFTER they have been tested, there will be the release. I think.

We are still missing out on the shards for :aether, :air, :earth, :fire and :gravity.
:aether is most likely going to be the magical damage zapper, although I'm not a fan of the concept (we already have one "damaging" shard, plus it'd be cool if it did something divergent).
The rest are more of a mystery. Personally, I think Gravity should get something that increases its stall capacity. A better shield would be perfect, but even a stall Shard would be great...
I'm not really a fan of SoSacrifice, but maybe i'm wrong, and i've got not really much time to test it.
I also think that a magical damage zapper is boring, so i made an :aether shard (i made it for the shard competition).
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rastafla on October 01, 2011, 12:12:16 pm
Regarding new colors.

Entropy got lighter and lost edge. If this is bad or not depends on your viewpoint on entropy. Clashes horribly with the art of pillars and pendulums but instead meshes very well if not better to several of the others card. Good improvement overall.

Death is now metallic instead of bone/ivory. No clash in colors. Just change no improvement.

Earth got earthy, real perfect coloration and its no longer possible to mistake time and earth cards. Instead you mistake earth and gravity but to a lesser degree than how much you switched earth and time. Too bad the light coloration of all earth cards clashes with the border except Steel Golem to varying degrees, will be fixed with new specific card art as time passes. Medium-Good improvement.

Life got poison green which shines artificial and dead. The vibrant and alive leaf pattern removed. The only bad change and I mean BAD.

Darkness became gray and lost most of its menace and edge. Works I guess. The color clashes with a few cards and blends with a few. Just change and no improvement.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Kamietsu on October 01, 2011, 12:23:13 pm
This update seems actually good and I really hope this will be released soon. (I'm just a little doubtful about the quanta cap..)
Well, now that Shards have been tested and (mostly) approved (some doubts on Shard of Sacrifice still, but I believe what others have said and it seems likely to be avoidable. Still scary concept, but it may be overreacting on my part) I think we are ready to see the other ones, so AFTER that and AFTER they have been tested, there will be the release. I think.

We are still missing out on the shards for :aether, :air, :earth, :fire and :gravity.
:aether is most likely going to be the magical damage zapper, although I'm not a fan of the concept (we already have one "damaging" shard, plus it'd be cool if it did something divergent).
The rest are more of a mystery. Personally, I think Gravity should get something that increases its stall capacity. A better shield would be perfect, but even a stall Shard would be great...
Those shards are still missing, but it's never been stated that all the shards will happen in one update. I actually sort of doubt they will. It would be a better idea to do maybe half of the shards in this update, then the other half in the next update.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: vagman13 on October 01, 2011, 12:34:02 pm
I think that zanz has said he will do the shard update in two patches already.Also besides the fire,gravity,air,aether,earth shards we might also get a new fire card in the next patch.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on October 01, 2011, 01:05:49 pm
good point, arena gives you coin while youre sleeping if you set up a halfway decent deck.
Most recent deck:
Rank: 16, Age 5
Has won me 150 :electrum .  Not exactly living wage.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Sevs on October 01, 2011, 04:04:38 pm
As long as shards are not allowed in tournaments (unless it is shard themed) and except for gray darkness cards and quanta max,  I am really liking this update.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on October 01, 2011, 04:33:57 pm
Concerns:
    With the introduction of SoP, the power of Deathstalker and
especially Dune Scorpion need to be revisited, though I can't think of a solution at this moment. I believe this absolutely needs to be addressed.[/list]
Increase the cost of both scorpions by 1-2 might be sufficient. (based on the cost relation between the 3 scorpions prior to SoP)
Do not agree. If you play with the card a bit, you know that SoaP, while being mono, doesn't really have the same punch as Unstoppable, nor Chaos Power and is not even as good as Blessing. You are paying a whole turn of CC vulnerability for a mono buff. It's balanced.
I trust your estimate. I underestimated the increased cost of the 1 turn delay for scorpions
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on October 01, 2011, 05:25:27 pm
the color changes meh w/e im sure they will get adjusted again..
as far as the scorps thing.. the shard does delay a turn .. but its also the only buff that can buff many creatures all at once... blessing, chaos power, and unstoppable only do 1 creature.. if i play 3 scorps and make them all +1\+1 and wait 1 turn.. which.. could be done fairly early with enough quanta.. that 1 turn might not be enough for the opponent to use say Firestorm or to stop each one of them.. then.. next turn they all hit.. if using dune scorp and SOR and SOP that 1 turn is gone instantly .. due to adrenaline effect u get at least 2 attacks that go through anyway.. with mass scorps out you can add it up really quick.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: hendrydext on October 01, 2011, 05:51:35 pm
I've test Shard of Readiness that says that it lets  :time creature to use their skill immediately and twice. There is some miss (or bug or etc):
Comment to the new batch 1.29:
Sooo Great improvement... So Happy...  :D :D
I am also happy, now Fate eggs now can work together with SoR. With random creature, the average atk is about 2*4 = 8 atk, with maksimum 30 (2*15) for ruby dragons. now fate eggs will be used with Shard of Serendipity. It will lead to an interesting random deck...  :D :D

About next shard:
I hope the other shards will be creative.. I hope zanz will not make permanent shard which attack player directly such as Shard of Void (one Shard is enough already). And, shard that increase cap of quanta sure is boring.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Post on October 01, 2011, 06:37:56 pm
I do not agree that the one-turn delay makes up for the removal of duo-dependency.

Removing duo affects your entire deck, not just the cards being played. Now, you have complete freedom on deck design with the introduction of SoP, and at the measly cost of 1 generic quanta. Add to that the ability to buff multiple scorpions in a single turn, with only 1 card (Fire Storm) in the game that can efficiently counter it on the following turn (which is when it must happen). Further, Time already has the potential for mass creature generation, more so with the SoR allowing for two immediate Pharaoh Scarabs in its current version, proving a large amount of utility with a single card, all within a single element that isn't even SoP's primary element. I'd venture to say that SoP is stronger for Time than it is for Water.

Mass effect cards quickly change the face of the game. Generally, a generic cost card is not a good idea for a mass effect, especially when it's cost is as low as it is for SoP. Dune Scorpion definitely needs its cost increased, though after writing this, I'm wondering if there is a better effect that the +1/0 for all. I'm really concerned about the long term effect it will have on the game. A mass creature buff would be better suited to a specific element.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Zaealix on October 01, 2011, 06:46:03 pm
And that's why  :water creatures get a bigger buff than  :time. As of right now,  :water can spam 2 or 3 SoP and get creatures that are at least 4|4, if not stronger. And to be honest, I figure SoP is going to make for all kinds of swarm decks possible.
Yes,  :time gets alot from SoP, but the Shards are meant to be good for everyone, with a focus on their element.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Post on October 01, 2011, 07:00:18 pm
I know it's good. I didn't say that was the problem. What I am saying is that is disturbs the balance of the game, especially for Time.

Water gets a bigger atk/hp buff, but water doesn't have creature generation, nor a card like Dune Scorpion. With just 4 mono-quanta and 2 cards, I can have one out on my first turn, creating a mass accumulation of Poison if you can't specifically stop it on your first turn, and chances are you can't. That's only one scenario out of many. I'll take that over the 2/2 bonus for costly water creatures, hence making it better for Time than Water.

However, the bigger problem is the far-reaching effects it has on card design and balancing elements. Initially, I liked the concept a lot. However, I have changed my mind after giving it some thought and testing.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Jenkar on October 01, 2011, 07:17:49 pm
that is disturbs the balance of the game
Exact aim.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on October 01, 2011, 07:29:01 pm
SoP is better for water than time.  squids + SoP > scorps + SoP
Pharaohs are costly, so your theory of creature generation and using SoP means youre going to be losing a lot.  Why do you think the best time decks do not use pharaohs.  They are too slow.  You can easily play squids and toadfish and SoPs and stomp all over a time deck, and a lot of other decks, using SoP.  Just 2 SoPs and you now have 5/6 squids that can lock down other creatures for 3 turns.  And toadfish that can poison the frozen creatures.  And toadfish already have a decent attack.

Death scorps benefit more anyway.  A death deck with death scorps, recluses and poison would be fast and deadly, and ill go test it out right now.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Post on October 01, 2011, 08:47:22 pm
1) I don't agree that squids + SoP would be better than scorpion + SoP, particularly early on. The amount of damage that would add up from an early scorpion is far greater than a squid, with only 1 real counter (Purify). Add in the synergy with Eternity, while still being mono, and I would chose the latter every time. A squid is subjected to CC for the rest of the game, while removing the scorpion after it's first attack does little to counter the damage it has done.

2) Current Time decks do not use Pharaohs. Now, I don't necessarily know if there will be some shift in 1.29, but my point was the added utility in a mono deck. This goes with two shards, not just 1.

3) Since you want to do a direct comparison, all those SoP Squids can simply be hit by Rewind. You also used two shards, where Time is using one.

4) I agree Deathstalkers need attention as well, as I mentioned originally. They don't benefit more, but I could see this being true in certain scenarios.

5) In the end, SoP may be better for water. This isn't my major concern. The greater concern is the game as a whole, and I am simply using Time as the clearest example. At the very least, I think Dune Scorpion and Deathstalker need balance, but I'd much rather see a change to the generic ability considering this is a generic quanta card.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RRQJ on October 01, 2011, 09:40:06 pm
I've said this already, but you only need one attack from one dune scorpion. after that they act like forest scorpions.  I don't see how SoP makes them overpowered. Especially considering that you must wait a turn (and hope the opponent doesn't mass cc or otherwise eliminate the threats) and usually needing to play several SoP at once (otherwise almost any shield will block them).  I would much rather use dune scorpion + momentum.  Deathstalkers may benefit more, but there's still the problem of waiting a turn and needing several shards to overcome most shields.

That being said, this is just from what I can tell.  Unfortunately, I don't have the time to test decks.  Go ahead and test such a deck and show that it is overpowered.

Edit:  Actually one more point.  To take advantage of SoP you'll need to have several scorpions on the field before playing the shard.  I would say at least three (otherwise you may as well have a couple of momentums).  I don't know about you, but that seems rather situational.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 01, 2011, 10:41:33 pm
People make too big a deal about DS's. An adrenalined forest scorpion, if left alone will do 2 psn a turn.  It isnt very often, unless facing another time deck, that you will be playing more than 1-2 cards a turn. Therefor a Forest Scorpion will often times do better, and are easier to mass produce. SoPs would help them a great deal as well.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Post on October 01, 2011, 11:21:58 pm
I've said this already, but you only need one attack from one dune scorpion. after that they act like forest scorpions.  I don't see how SoP makes them overpowered.
Um, no. They may act like a Forest Scorpion afterwards, but the match itself has been changed. Can a forest scorpion continue increasing poison on the opponent after it has been killed or controlled?

Previously, Time/Death had a few elements that it had to work with to incorporate Dune Scorpions/Deathstalkers. Now, it can use them with any element, including mono, the buff card is cheaper, and can buff multiple targets instead of just 1.

Quote
Actually one more point.  To take advantage of SoP you'll need to have several scorpions on the field before playing the shard.  I would say at least three (otherwise you may as well have a couple of momentums).
Ok, it's obvious you aren't giving this the thought it deserves. You don't need several: after the first poison, the rest act like Forest Scorpions, just as you said earlier. The first attack is the key. The decks I have played in Beta, I have gotten a buffed Dune scorpion out on the first or second turn almost every time. Waiting is not a smart thing to do. Later in the match, however, you can then further buff them, and buff multiple creatures.

Quote
That being said, this is just from what I can tell.  Unfortunately, I don't have the time to test decks.  Go ahead and test such a deck and show that it is overpowered.
As you can see, I have been. Good to know that you're willing to critique my research, command me to test, but not willing to do any of it yourself.

People make too big a deal about DS's. An adrenalined forest scorpion, if left alone will do 2 psn a turn.  It isnt very often, unless facing another time deck, that you will be playing more than 1-2 cards a turn.
Unless you have the majority of your opening draw in your hand, which these changes increase the likelihood of. Edit: Also, you are ignoring the synergy with Eternity, which as I mentioned earlier is yet another mono-deck option.

Quote
Therefor a Forest Scorpion will often times do better, and are easier to mass produce. SoPs would help them a great deal as well.
Another example of my concern about the impact that a generic quanta mass buff will have on the current card designs, but not as stark or imbalanced.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: gumbeh on October 01, 2011, 11:24:05 pm
Blessing, Chaos Power, and Momentum will boost any scorpion through most shields. SoaP will only do that for upgraded forest scorps
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Post on October 02, 2011, 12:29:07 am
Just a very simple deck example:

by Post
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
6rv 6rv 6rv 6rv 6rv 7n2 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q3 7q8 7q8 7q8 7qd 7qd 7qd 7qd 7qd 7qd 8ps

And a sample of the common result:

(http://www.flickr.com/photos/35359634@N03/6202112304)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on October 02, 2011, 01:27:45 am
@Post
Using your rough deck outline I play tested it against a Momentum variant (-5 SoP, +5 Momentum, Mark of Gravity instead of Time)

SoP + Dune Scorpion inflicts neurotoxin turn 2 for 3 :time + 1 :rainbow (4 towers)
Momentum + Dune Scorpion (using Mark of Gravity) inflicts neurotoxin turn 2 for 3 :time + 1 :gravity (2 towers + 1  :gravity mark)

Momentum Dune Scorpions is more likely to inflict neurotoxin on turn 2 because it requires only 2 towers rather than 4. It does come with side effects (+1hp, ignore shields, -1 :time per turn, effects of Momentum/SoP ing the 2nd scorpion)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RRQJ on October 02, 2011, 02:44:01 am
I've said this already, but you only need one attack from one dune scorpion. after that they act like forest scorpions.  I don't see how SoP makes them overpowered.
Um, no. They may act like a Forest Scorpion afterwards, but the match itself has been changed. Can a forest scorpion continue increasing poison on the opponent after it has been killed or controlled?

Previously, Time/Death had a few elements that it had to work with to incorporate Dune Scorpions/Deathstalkers. Now, it can use them with any element, including mono, the buff card is cheaper, and can buff multiple targets instead of just 1.

Quote
Actually one more point.  To take advantage of SoP you'll need to have several scorpions on the field before playing the shard.  I would say at least three (otherwise you may as well have a couple of momentums).
Ok, it's obvious you aren't giving this the thought it deserves. You don't need several: after the first poison, the rest act like Forest Scorpions, just as you said earlier. The first attack is the key. The decks I have played in Beta, I have gotten a buffed Dune scorpion out on the first or second turn almost every time. Waiting is not a smart thing to do. Later in the match, however, you can then further buff them, and buff multiple creatures.

Quote
That being said, this is just from what I can tell.  Unfortunately, I don't have the time to test decks.  Go ahead and test such a deck and show that it is overpowered.
As you can see, I have been. Good to know that you're willing to critique my research, command me to test, but not willing to do any of it yourself.
Your argument is illogical.  Everthing you just said can be applied to momentum, with better and more consistent results.  If fact, you're basically proving my point, that dune scorpion already works with existing cards and that SoP brings nothing new, and thus, does not overpower dune scorpion.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 02, 2011, 02:57:10 am
my only concern is if/when someone comes up with a solid deck incorporating both :time and :death scorps with SoP- that sounds terrifying if they could get it to work consistently.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RRQJ on October 02, 2011, 03:03:55 am
Even if that happens I don't see it being significantly more powerful than some of the current poison decks.  If it somehow becomes terrifying, then at least people will start using purify more.  :P
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on October 02, 2011, 03:08:05 am
I've tried so many snova variations of dune and death scorps, I just gave up on the idea.

Quote from: RRQJ
Your argument is illogical.  Everthing you just said can be applied to momentum, with better and more consistent results.  If fact, you're basically proving my point, that dune scorpion already works with existing cards and that SoP brings nothing new, and thus, does not overpower dune scorpion.
Exactly what he said.

Not only is momentum better, since you only need 1 dune scorp and only need to attack once with it for the effect, you only need a simple buff.  Gravity mark and momentum works so well.  Plus with eternity to send their creatures back and they replay them to boost the poison further.  Dune scorps decks that don't use gravity towers will always have to wait til the 2nd turn to attack.  So, with SoPa, they would also have to wait for the 2nd turn, but at least with momentum, you can bypass shields.

Oh, and dunescorp decks don't do that well against other players anyway.  It's too slow to get going, unless you play against a fractal deck.  Against fgs they are awesome because they draw 2 cards per turn.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 02, 2011, 03:13:28 am
Fun Fact for those who dont know (think it was said before but I just discovered it)-SoP just delays, like bassilisk, so using adrenaline on a scorp will allow it to attack the same turn.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Elite arbiter on October 02, 2011, 03:25:52 am
Yes, but it'd be almost impossible to get that on turn 1. Its technically possible in three cards to dune scorp on turn one... but I wouldn't count on it.

Standard
Adrenaline
Life tower x3
Dune Scorp
Time Tower x3
SoP
Nine cards.

Rainbow
Entropy Tower x2
Supernovax2
Adrenaline
Dune Scorp
SoP
Seven cards.

Serendipity Special
Quantum Tower x2 (1 Time, 2 Entropy, 3 pay for Serendipity Shard)
SoSer (Supernova, Dune Scorp, Momentum)
Three cards.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: zanzarino on October 02, 2011, 06:58:50 am
One more update:
Fixed a few bugs with SoR
New Darkness background
Cap increased to 75 for more testing
AI learned how to use adrenaline and mitosis on multiple targets
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rember on October 02, 2011, 07:02:43 am
One more update:
AI learned how to use adrenaline and mitosis on multiple targets
 :o

The new cap fixes the problems with Fractal more or less. Dragon fractal decks might still run into problems but mid range attacker fractal decks have nothing to worry about anymore. Stone skin is back to normal more or less (though I like using it at 80~ quanta to offset it's quanta cost...). 24 damage per fire bolt puts firestalls back into the picture as well.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on October 02, 2011, 07:08:09 am
New Darkness background
Wait ... how has it changed?

Edit: Alright, I've seen the new background, it's not showing up in Beta for me (I'll try clearing the cache). I must say, it looks awesome.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RavingRabbid on October 02, 2011, 07:19:04 am
I still love you Zanz.


But now we need a real nerf for Firebolt again.

2 damage every 8 quanta?
3 damage every 12 quanta?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on October 02, 2011, 07:30:35 am
I still love you Zanz.


But now we need a real nerf for Firebolt again.

2 damage every 8 quanta?
3 damage every 12 quanta?
I like what our Fire Mistress Napalm suggested. 2 damages with a chance of 3 damages. 33% chance would be acceptable but with a higher quanta cap you get easily in OTK range, even without good luck. Of course, reducing damage still work well because you can't waste bolts as CC that easily, you rely on your Fahrenheit a lot more, and hp increasing cards are still pretty powerful against it.

That way it's still inflicting more damage than the other bolts, but it's effectively getting 2.33 damages per 10 quanta on average. At 75 quanta cap, with a bolt, you get between 16 and 24 damages, average of 18.66 damages. Fahrenheit would deal a max of 20 damages. You need on average 4-5 bolts with decent luck to OTK a 100 hp opponent, and an opponent with about 150 hp and constant healing for at least 20ish is going to beat you.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Elite arbiter on October 02, 2011, 09:32:37 am
That might work. Although it might be better to leave chance out of it and have every third bolt do 3 damage. Trying to figure out if this should start on bolt 1 or 3, mainly because starting it on bolt 1 lets it be a lightning bolt at 10-19 range, whereas its a shockwave if on the third. I'm not sure how I feel about that.


Also, since there's a new patch and we're addressing AI issues... I'll sum up a problem I just found out with the AI. Adrenaline and Mitosis can be viable now AI wise, I think I can finally stop avoiding Life in AI decks like the plague.

It tends to play Rage Pot and then Overdrive on something of its own like a momentum'd graviton master, leaving it with 7/1 and dying at the end of the turn. Or playing overdrive on a player's creature and then immediately after playing rage pot on it to kill it, leading to an absolute waste of overdrive. I propose to fix this the AI is shifted to always play Rage Pot before Overdrive if played on an player's creature, and never play Rage Pot on a creature of its own with Overdrive and under 10 hp. (Or perhaps never play Rage Pot on a creature of yours with Overdrive on it, if thats easier to code.) I don't have access to the source code though so I don't know if this is viable for a fix. Its dumb AI, but it seems like an AI problem that wasn't known about because I can't think of any deck with both Rage Pot and Overdrive in it other than Half-Blood Gravity/Fire.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: loadquo on October 02, 2011, 11:01:11 am
Bug with the AI and Shard of Readiness, it only uses the skill once after using it with mitosis on silurian dragons. This is with AI3 and AI6.

Repeated with pharohs on AI3. Also it doesn't tend to play readiness twice on the same target, e.g. it will play readiness on scarab even when there is nothing for it to eat, instead of playing it on the pharoh again.

Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on October 02, 2011, 11:03:35 am
One more update:
Fixed a few bugs with SoR
New Darkness background
Cap increased to 75 for more testing
AI learned how to use adrenaline and mitosis on multiple targets
The background is pretty awesome. First scary background :>
The AI improvement is awesome. I've missed out on a few Arena decks since AI fails so much with Adren. Could you tweak Fractal priority next? It's the strongest card in the entire game and Fractal decks are an archetype of its own, but I can't make reliable decks with it for the AI.

That said, more bugs with SoSe:
(http://i.imgur.com/Xn7qV.jpg)

For some reason, they would take the cost of the previous card in hand. Upon using them, they simply vanish. Before casting anything, they have an undefined cost and a small "un" next to the card where the cost would be.

Like so:
(http://i.imgur.com/woXHu.png)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Malignant on October 02, 2011, 11:17:07 am
Your SoSe is bugged. No bands.

Edit: Well, looks like upgraded SoSe is bugged. 6s1 instead of 6s0.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on October 02, 2011, 11:30:00 am
Is it big difference between cap 75 and no limit? Maybe in 2% games?
Problem of FireBolt is still didn't solve.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: aqwsz0 on October 02, 2011, 11:34:16 am
One more update:
Fixed a few bugs with SoR
New Darkness background
Cap increased to 75 for more testing
AI learned how to use adrenaline and mitosis on multiple targets
The background is pretty awesome. First scary background :>
The AI improvement is awesome. I've missed out on a few Arena decks since AI fails so much with Adren. Could you tweak Fractal priority next? It's the strongest card in the entire game and Fractal decks are an archetype of its own, but I can't make reliable decks with it for the AI.

That said, more bugs with SoSe:
(http://i.imgur.com/JqUxG.jpg)

For some reason, they would take the cost of the previous card in hand. Upon using them, they simply vanish. Before casting anything, they have an undefined cost and a small "un" next to the card where the cost would be.

Like so:
(http://i.imgur.com/i7f7g.jpg)
yikes, wtf?  did you play a SoSe and got another SoSe?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on October 02, 2011, 11:37:41 am
Your SoSe is bugged. No bands.

Edit: Well, looks like upgraded SoSe is bugged. 6s1 instead of 6s0.
lulz, mine. Yes, my SoSebow deck code didn't put the upgraded SoSe's into my deck, meaning the card code is bugged.
Unupped works as intended.

yikes, wtf?  did you play a SoSe and got another SoSe?
Um, no.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Wizardcat on October 02, 2011, 12:17:11 pm
New Darkness background
Cap increased to 75 for more testing
I changed my mind. Thanks, Zanz.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on October 02, 2011, 12:23:39 pm
Only just noticed that new Darkness background, excellent, looks better than the current one even :)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: vagman13 on October 02, 2011, 01:34:57 pm
Darkness new background is excellent as is earth's.I don't like the life one,seems too plain in comparison with the old one.Entropy is plain also and I much prefer the old death one.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Malignant on October 02, 2011, 01:59:58 pm
Time Mutant with Hatch + SoR.

(http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/5494/assddd.png)(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/5510/34752709.png)
1 Mutant, 1 Not. Meh.


Time Mutant with Burrow + SoR.

Able to Burrow and Unburrow in the same turn, once unburrowed, cost will not be 0.


Finally, the battle ends!

(http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/2644/15819943.png)(http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3330/66514148.png)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ddevans96 on October 02, 2011, 02:16:55 pm
I'll say straight off I don't like the new darkness background - way too swirly. If the swirls were smoothed together they would be a lot more ominous.

Also, metallic rocks >>> dead rocks. And it matches the quanta symbol now. Best change of the five backgrounds imo.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Zaealix on October 02, 2011, 04:11:24 pm
New Darkness background pwns. Even the old 'dark woods' loses to this.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ScaredGuy on October 02, 2011, 04:15:32 pm
I liked the last darkness background better, but this one isn't bad. The eye at the top is a nice touch.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: kirchj33 on October 02, 2011, 05:00:57 pm
Were the new backgrounds linked somewhere in this thread (and found outside of the trainer)?  I thought I remembered seeing it but couldn't find it.  I just wanted to visualize old vs. new.  Also, I am lazy.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Onizuka on October 02, 2011, 05:13:08 pm
New New Darkness one is awesome. Don't change it back to the old new darkness one.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Captain Scibra on October 02, 2011, 09:26:18 pm
Just throwing a quick bug out there, but AI continues to prefer using Rewinds on the Skeleton that is next in the order that the field is filled with creatures, rather than weighing which one was a better target for the Undead effect.  In other words, it doesn't take into account the one it wants to target has a skill, or that another one might have antimatter or some other defect that can be removed when the Undead skill is triggered.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rastafla on October 02, 2011, 09:27:16 pm
Regarding new colors.

Entropy got lighter and lost edge. If this is bad or not depends on your viewpoint on entropy. Clashes horribly with the art of pillars and pendulums but instead meshes very well if not better to several of the others card. Good improvement overall.

Death is now metallic instead of bone/ivory. No clash in colors. Just change no improvement.

Earth got earthy, real perfect coloration and its no longer possible to mistake time and earth cards. Instead you mistake earth and gravity but to a lesser degree than how much you switched earth and time. Too bad the light coloration of all earth cards clashes with the border except Steel Golem to varying degrees, will be fixed with new specific card art as time passes. Medium-Good improvement.

Life got poison green which shines artificial and dead. The vibrant and alive leaf pattern removed. The only bad change and I mean BAD.

Darkness became gray and lost most of its menace and edge. Works I guess. The color clashes with a few cards and blends with a few. Just change and no improvement.
One more update:
Fixed a few bugs with SoR
New Darkness background
Cap increased to 75 for more testing
AI learned how to use adrenaline and mitosis on multiple targets
With this the change to darkness card borders from bleak gray into consuming darkness the new assessment of darkness is "Dangerous and menacing" superb coloring at par with the earth change.

Earth is superb (upped earth and upped gravity is too close though)
Darkness is superb
Entropy is good
Death is neither good nor bad
Life is dead, bad bad bad bad bad

   
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rutarete on October 02, 2011, 09:54:40 pm
With this the change to darkness card borders from bleak gray into consuming darkness the new assessment of darkness is "Dangerous and menacing" superb coloring at par with the earth change.

Earth is superb (upped earth and upped gravity is too close though)
Darkness is superb
Entropy is good
Death is neither good nor bad
Life is dead, bad bad bad bad bad
Couldn't agree with you more.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: artimies7 on October 02, 2011, 10:09:00 pm
I think that you just need to flip the Life BG sideways and add some more lines and contrast.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: furballdn on October 02, 2011, 11:38:12 pm
new colors! death, air, light, and entropy look a bit weird compared to the others. Darkness looks pretty awesome. So does earth, but life looks a little bit odd.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Post on October 03, 2011, 04:07:22 am
I've tried so many snova variations of dune and death scorps, I just gave up on the idea.

Quote from: RRQJ
Your argument is illogical.  Everthing you just said can be applied to momentum, with better and more consistent results.  If fact, you're basically proving my point, that dune scorpion already works with existing cards and that SoP brings nothing new, and thus, does not overpower dune scorpion.
Exactly what he said.

Not only is momentum better, since you only need 1 dune scorp and only need to attack once with it for the effect, you only need a simple buff.  Gravity mark and momentum works so well.  Plus with eternity to send their creatures back and they replay them to boost the poison further.  Dune scorps decks that don't use gravity towers will always have to wait til the 2nd turn to attack.  So, with SoPa, they would also have to wait for the 2nd turn, but at least with momentum, you can bypass shields.

Oh, and dunescorp decks don't do that well against other players anyway.  It's too slow to get going, unless you play against a fractal deck.  Against fgs they are awesome because they draw 2 cards per turn.
~sigh~

Tired of going back and forth between this.

If you want to do a direct comparison between Dune/SoP to Dune/Momentum, of course momentum is better! However, as you are doing this, you are overlooking the tremendous differences during the deckbuilding and quanta accumulation processes. The impact of adding a quanta type during the deck building process is far greater than the casting process that you want to focus on. The consistency with which a Dune/SoP can get out is far greater than any other combination. The shields you keep wanting to introduce are by no means likely that early in the game.

There are plenty of situations in which one will be better than the other. What I'm saying is that the utility of Dune/SoP is now wide open and, when combined with the speed and consistency with which it can be utilized, it creates imbalance. On top of that, this will be the case for many other cards due to it being a generic quanta mass buff card.

@Post
Using your rough deck outline I play tested it against a Momentum variant (-5 SoP, +5 Momentum, Mark of Gravity instead of Time)

SoP + Dune Scorpion inflicts neurotoxin turn 2 for 3 :time + 1 :rainbow (4 towers)
Momentum + Dune Scorpion (using Mark of Gravity) inflicts neurotoxin turn 2 for 3 :time + 1 :gravity (2 towers + 1  :gravity mark)

Momentum Dune Scorpions is more likely to inflict neurotoxin on turn 2 because it requires only 2 towers rather than 4. It does come with side effects (+1hp, ignore shields, -1 :time per turn, effects of Momentum/SoP ing the 2nd scorpion)
This is another result of a direct comparison that doesn't take into account the metagame. See my response above.


Anyway, that's my last attempt to bring to light this issue. I'll let people continue to do the direct comparisons with buff cards, which I'm sure will follow.

The fact is, a generic quanta mass buff in a game with this few cards makes no sense, and will create a lot of challenges when designing and balancing cards in the future.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on October 03, 2011, 04:35:15 am
@Post
Dune SoP is definitely something to watch. I think that although SoP is directly buffing Dune Scorpion slightly over Momentum it does so at the cost of consistent speed. The big question is whether the impact from the freed Mark will have too large of an impact.

Scorpions will be the test for if SoP's generic cost will be a design problem for 0 atk creatures because other 0 atk creatures would need to be balanced to the Scorpions standard anyways.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on October 03, 2011, 04:39:06 am
Were the new backgrounds linked somewhere in this thread (and found outside of the trainer)?  I thought I remembered seeing it but couldn't find it.  I just wanted to visualize old vs. new.  Also, I am lazy.
New backgrounds are in the original post (except for new new Darkness).
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: furballdn on October 03, 2011, 04:58:10 am
Oh! Just noticed HP is now displayed as X/X. Just found that pretty cool.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on October 03, 2011, 06:25:24 am
im not fan of the new SOR.. use a time ability twice? big deal? 5 time creatures to use that with? scarab, pharoah, nymph, deja vu, and fate egg... or a possible mutated creature thats time with an ability... more or less nerfed it to useless for time imo. also the huge health loss for SOSac i think is too much now to use. 20-30 was acceptable but 40 is way too high.. near half your life to stop more often than not (early game) less than 40 damage.. better off just taking the damage and using healing methods as usual. 
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RRQJ on October 03, 2011, 06:49:59 am
I've tried so many snova variations of dune and death scorps, I just gave up on the idea.

Quote from: RRQJ
Your argument is illogical.  Everthing you just said can be applied to momentum, with better and more consistent results.  If fact, you're basically proving my point, that dune scorpion already works with existing cards and that SoP brings nothing new, and thus, does not overpower dune scorpion.
Exactly what he said.

Not only is momentum better, since you only need 1 dune scorp and only need to attack once with it for the effect, you only need a simple buff.  Gravity mark and momentum works so well.  Plus with eternity to send their creatures back and they replay them to boost the poison further.  Dune scorps decks that don't use gravity towers will always have to wait til the 2nd turn to attack.  So, with SoPa, they would also have to wait for the 2nd turn, but at least with momentum, you can bypass shields.

Oh, and dunescorp decks don't do that well against other players anyway.  It's too slow to get going, unless you play against a fractal deck.  Against fgs they are awesome because they draw 2 cards per turn.
~sigh~

Tired of going back and forth between this.

If you want to do a direct comparison between Dune/SoP to Dune/Momentum, of course momentum is better! However, as you are doing this, you are overlooking the tremendous differences during the deckbuilding and quanta accumulation processes. The impact of adding a quanta type during the deck building process is far greater than the casting process that you want to focus on. The consistency with which a Dune/SoP can get out is far greater than any other combination. The shields you keep wanting to introduce are by no means likely that early in the game.

There are plenty of situations in which one will be better than the other. What I'm saying is that the utility of Dune/SoP is now wide open and, when combined with the speed and consistency with which it can be utilized, it creates imbalance. On top of that, this will be the case for many other cards due to it being a generic quanta mass buff card.

@Post
Using your rough deck outline I play tested it against a Momentum variant (-5 SoP, +5 Momentum, Mark of Gravity instead of Time)

SoP + Dune Scorpion inflicts neurotoxin turn 2 for 3 :time + 1 :rainbow (4 towers)
Momentum + Dune Scorpion (using Mark of Gravity) inflicts neurotoxin turn 2 for 3 :time + 1 :gravity (2 towers + 1  :gravity mark)

Momentum Dune Scorpions is more likely to inflict neurotoxin on turn 2 because it requires only 2 towers rather than 4. It does come with side effects (+1hp, ignore shields, -1 :time per turn, effects of Momentum/SoP ing the 2nd scorpion)
This is another result of a direct comparison that doesn't take into account the metagame. See my response above.


Anyway, that's my last attempt to bring to light this issue. I'll let people continue to do the direct comparisons with buff cards, which I'm sure will follow.

The fact is, a generic quanta mass buff in a game with this few cards makes no sense, and will create a lot of challenges when designing and balancing cards in the future.
I've already said that momentum+dune is faster and more consistent than SoP+dune. And when I say that, I mean gather the appropriate quanta, play the cards, and attack successfully. In fact, in OldTrees' post that you yourself quoted, he says that you're more likely to hit the opponent with a momentum dune than an SoP dune by turn 2.  And that's primarily due to the fact that in order to hit the opponent with an SoP dune by turn 2, you need to play all the necessary cards on turn 1 (SoP's 1 turn delay).  OldTrees mentioned it, but I'll be more specific: that means you need 4 towers, a dune, and an SoP - 6 cards out of the 7/8 you'll start with.  And, you make the risk that the opponent won't lightning/fire bolt/something that does 3 damage.

Compare that to needing two towers, momentum, dune, and having a gravity mark among the starting 7/8 card hand + the card you draw for the second turn.  That's 4 cards out of 8/9.  And you don't need to worry about CC.  The only situation where SoP dune comes out ahead in this situation is if the opponent plays a silence.  But that's it.  And it doesn't count for much in the comparison.

So now, explain to me in what situation a SoP dune deck is better than momentum dune deck.  I'm emphasizing deck to cover the deckbuilding and quanta gathering process that you believe I ignored.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on October 03, 2011, 07:18:15 am
im not fan of the new SOR.. use a time ability twice? big deal? 5 time creatures to use that with? scarab, pharoah, nymph, deja vu, and fate egg... or a possible mutated creature thats time with an ability... more or less nerfed it to useless for time imo. also the huge health loss for SOSac i think is too much now to use. 20-30 was acceptable but 40 is way too high.. near half your life to stop more often than not (early game) less than 40 damage.. better off just taking the damage and using healing methods as usual.
Why would you be using SoS in the early game? SoS costs 40|32 hp and becomes efficient if your opponent fields 11|9 attack. If the opponent has not breached this threashold then it will take them a minimum of 6|9 turns to prevent you from using SoS. The 6th|9th turn is not early game in my opinion.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RavingRabbid on October 03, 2011, 07:50:45 am
Am I the only fan of the new life background?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Onizuka on October 03, 2011, 10:43:38 am
Am I the only fan of the new life background?
<---Fan of new life background
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: hendrydext on October 03, 2011, 10:56:03 am
im not fan of the new SOR.. use a time ability twice? big deal? 5 time creatures to use that with? scarab, pharoah, nymph, deja vu, and fate egg... or a possible mutated creature thats time with an ability... more or less nerfed it to useless for time imo. also the huge health loss for SOSac i think is too much now to use. 20-30 was acceptable but 40 is way too high.. near half your life to stop more often than not (early game) less than 40 damage.. better off just taking the damage and using healing methods as usual.
Why would you be using SoS in the early game? SoS costs 40|32 hp and becomes efficient if your opponent fields 11|9 attack. If the opponent has not breached this threashold then it will take them a minimum of 6|9 turns to prevent you from using SoS. The 6th|9th turn is not early game in my opinion.
I am agree with Bored Ninja..
I have tried SoSac in beta. SoSac is not "playable" because of its high damage (This issue has been there even its initial damage is 30. I think 30 is high).. It is not about attack 11/9. Playing SoSac is never predictable.. What if the enemy summon monster with ?/? atk in next turn so you have hp below 32 in your turn, then SoSac is not playable anymore...

You should try it in beta too..
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: TheManuz on October 03, 2011, 11:21:20 am
Am I the only fan of the new life background?
<---Fan of new life background
<---Me too!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: kirchj33 on October 03, 2011, 11:57:45 am
Am I the only fan of the new life background?
<---Fan of new life background
<---Me too!
I love the new background.  It's vibrant and aLI(F)VE!

Ok.... bad pun.  I really need to see new vs. old side by side to be able to make a fair assessment but they all seem like improvements to me (especially unupped earth!).
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: artimies7 on October 03, 2011, 12:07:18 pm
Am I the only fan of the new life background?
<---Fan of new life background
<---Me too!
I love the new background.  It's vibrant and aLI(F)VE!

Ok.... bad pun. (Yah, rly.)  I really need to see new vs. old side by side to be able to make a fair assessment but they all seem like improvements to me (especially unupped earth!).
I think that some ppl dislike it (new life BG) for the lack of contrast. I say, if it's not perfect now, all you need to do is turn it sideways and add some more shadows.

As of now, it's pretty good.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on October 03, 2011, 02:31:39 pm
im not fan of the new SOR.. use a time ability twice? big deal? 5 time creatures to use that with? scarab, pharoah, nymph, deja vu, and fate egg... or a possible mutated creature thats time with an ability... more or less nerfed it to useless for time imo. also the huge health loss for SOSac i think is too much now to use. 20-30 was acceptable but 40 is way too high.. near half your life to stop more often than not (early game) less than 40 damage.. better off just taking the damage and using healing methods as usual.
Why would you be using SoS in the early game? SoS costs 40|32 hp and becomes efficient if your opponent fields 11|9 attack. If the opponent has not breached this threashold then it will take them a minimum of 6|9 turns to prevent you from using SoS. The 6th|9th turn is not early game in my opinion.
I am agree with Bored Ninja..
I have tried SoSac in beta. SoSac is not "playable" because of its high damage (This issue has been there even its initial damage is 30. I think 30 is high).. It is not about attack 11/9. Playing SoSac is never predictable.. What if the enemy summon monster with ?/? atk in next turn so you have hp below 32 in your turn, then SoSac is not playable anymore...

You should try it in beta too..
I have tried it in beta. Yes there is unpredictability, your opponent could be under 11|9 attack and jump without warning to over that knocking you below 40|32 hp. Have you considered the power of using Sundial to delay while the opponent increases their fielded attack to above the threshold? Alternatively you could include some of the generic quanta cost instant healing like SoD or Holy Light (timing dependent on mark).
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: hendrydext on October 03, 2011, 02:59:56 pm
I have tried it in beta. Yes there is unpredictability, your opponent could be under 11|9 attack and jump without warning to over that knocking you below 40|32 hp. Have you considered the power of using Sundial to delay while the opponent increases their fielded attack to above the threshold? Alternatively you could include some of the generic quanta cost instant healing like SoD or Holy Light (timing dependent on mark).
If it is use with healing, such as SoD + SoSac, then it is slightly equivalent with dimensional shield +protect artifact.
Playable but rather not very useful...  :(
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on October 03, 2011, 03:04:08 pm
I have tried it in beta. Yes there is unpredictability, your opponent could be under 11|9 attack and jump without warning to over that knocking you below 40|32 hp. Have you considered the power of using Sundial to delay while the opponent increases their fielded attack to above the threshold? Alternatively you could include some of the generic quanta cost instant healing like SoD or Holy Light (timing dependent on mark).
If it is use with healing, such as SoD + SoSac, then it is slightly equivalent with dimensional shield +protect artifact.
Playable but rather not very useful...  :(
Closer to Dim Shield + SoD. Playable and useful but not top tier/OP anymore.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Angelic_Dawn on October 03, 2011, 03:42:59 pm
Love the new Dark & Earth  :D   <3

Not to fond of the new green tho, it looks kinda sickly and poisony/Acidy to me.  Doesnt really Feel Life-ish.

But thats my oppinion   :)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on October 03, 2011, 11:37:33 pm
The idea of SoSa is you play it while you have quite a bit of hp still so that you are not taking damage any more.  Don't think of it as a card that is meant to heal you back up when you are low on hp, that is completely wrong.  It is used at high hp, and you take damage, and if your opponent doesn't heal you up for that amount of damage, then you played it at a bad time, oh well, if you get back to 100%, play another one after that.  It's basically 2 turns of complete invulnerability without your opponent being able to cancel the effect.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on October 03, 2011, 11:44:31 pm
Any word yet on when 1.29 will be out of beta?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on October 03, 2011, 11:47:55 pm
The idea of SoSa is you play it while you have quite a bit of hp still so that you are not taking damage any more.  Don't think of it as a card that is meant to heal you back up when you are low on hp, that is completely wrong.  It is used at high hp, and you take damage, and if your opponent doesn't heal you up for that amount of damage, then you played it at a bad time, oh well, if you get back to 100%, play another one after that.  It's basically 2 turns of complete invulnerability without your opponent being able to cancel the effect.
The 11|9 threshold was calculated on this basis. (+ some healing to recoup the card used).
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on October 03, 2011, 11:57:01 pm
11/9 threshold?  I don't know what this means.  If you are talking about total dmg per turn, then that doesn't even matter.  You don't wait until your opponent gets out a big creature.  If your opponent has out enough damage to give you back enough hp to play another shard after the first one runs out, then that is all you need.  Either your opponent continues to discard their creatures, or play them and heal you up faster.

But unless a person can get out the 3 turn win deck (red dragons), you're not going below 40 hp within 3 turns.  Even lava destroyers will only get you down to 50 something hp in the 2nd turn.  But if you're not playing against either of these decks, you usually have at least 2-3 free turns without getting close to 40 hp, and 32 hp will give you usually 3-4 free turns, and again, don't wait to play the shard, play it early, itll buy you time to get out a good combo.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Essence on October 04, 2011, 12:12:36 am
Quote
If your opponent has out enough damage to give you back enough hp to play another shard after the first one runs out, then that is all you need.
True, and that's awesome for the metagame. It means that rushes that just throw out huge damage are wicked punished by SoSa, while midline decks that field up to 19 damage (15 upped) while controlling your attackers are perfectly able to handle SoSa. That's exactly the kind of metagame shift Elements needs.  In fact, most of the current shards (SoSe excepted) are leaning towards that slower, mid-line playing style, and I love it. :)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on October 04, 2011, 01:09:25 am
11/9 threshold?  I don't know what this means.  If you are talking about total dmg per turn, then that doesn't even matter.  You don't wait until your opponent gets out a big creature.  If your opponent has out enough damage to give you back enough hp to play another shard after the first one runs out, then that is all you need.  Either your opponent continues to discard their creatures, or play them and heal you up faster.
If the opponent is doing less than 10|8 total damage per turn then playing SoS speeds up your demise. (you are taking 40|32 damage from SoS)
If the opponent is doing exactly 10|8 total damage per turn then playing SoS has no effect.
If the opponent is doing more than 10|8 total damage per turn (minimum 11|9) then SoS is worth playing.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on October 04, 2011, 01:26:12 am
It's worth playing even if they are only doing 5 damage.  If they are only doing 5 damage, it is still 2 turns that you won't have to worry about them playing any more creatures (if they are smart), which means they might have to discard.  2 turns to draw another SoSa as well, so if you can stack it, you will live for 4 turns.  Also if you get 2 in your opening hand, you could start off by playing both right away, that means you now have 4 turns you won't be taking any damage, but your opponent might be inclined to not play any creatures allowing you to set something up.


-edit-
Having a sanctuary in play and playing an SoSa, you lose all your quanta except death still.  Shouldn't you keep all your quanta?  Maybe just something overlooked.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on October 04, 2011, 01:35:24 am
It's worth playing even if they are only doing 5 damage.  If they are only doing 5 damage, it is still 2 turns that you won't have to worry about them playing any more creatures (if they are smart), which means they might have to discard.  2 turns to draw another SoSa as well, so if you can stack it, you will live for 4 turns.  Also if you get 2 in your opening hand, you could start off by playing both right away, that means you now have 4 turns you won't be taking any damage, but your opponent might be inclined to not play any creatures allowing you to set something up.
Risky play. You lose an average of 15|11hp per turn (10|6 more than without SoS) in that first example just to delay them playing creatures. (they would probably play creatures rather than discard) It may occasionally be worth that but rarely. Having them play their creatures and then use SoS sounds like the better move IMO.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 04, 2011, 02:39:23 am
"Having a sanctuary in play and playing an SoSa, you lose all your quanta except death still.  Shouldn't you keep all your quanta?  Maybe just something overlooked."

sanct only works on your opponents turn
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on October 04, 2011, 02:52:47 am
Oh ya, keep forgetting that. :P
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: SnoWeb on October 04, 2011, 07:23:05 am
About SoP and Dune Scorpion: If someone uses dunes a lot, I'm that one. I tried it in every possible way. I always thought people who do not play with it overestimate it's strength because they do not know how to react to the yellow icon. I also believe dune deserved to have the possibility to be played in mono. It was just a difficult challenge to allow this possibility without making the creature too strong. I think the challenge has been carried off with brio. The greatest strength of dune is that one hit is enough. You play your dune with it's buff and stall. The drawback of having it delayed is huge. It means that the opponent has one opportunity to kill it or play a shield before it hits. I say: "brilliant". The combo SoP-Dune opens the opportunities of playing dune in different decks (water-time, mono-time, death-time rainbow or even fire-time why not) but with a lower benefit that if you play it in the classical (time-gravity, time-light or time-entropy). It couldn't be better. It is clearly a buff to dune. I really think it is a deserved buff. IMO, it will not make it OP. However, now be careful you cannot be sure your opponent does not have one in reserve (scary scary). I might be wrong and maybe someone fill find a unstoppable deck using the SoP-Dune combo. Personally I really doubt it. Anyway I'll test and watch it closely believe me. If it gets out of control I'll open the nerf thread myself.

About the cap at 75: It does not serve the purpose I thought the cap should serve. It does not affect the OP properties of Fire bolt/lance and Fahrenheit. I believe in this form the cap is completely useless. I think that if you want to use said cards at full strength you should be compelled to restrained decks. That is why I proposed the cap at 40 + bonus for you mark. A +40 bonus brings the cap to 80. It gives you the same destruction (or healing for SS) power that the present plain 75 cap. However, it restrain the scope of decks you might use it with.

About SoR: I think SoR needs a buff on it non-time use. Now it is underused and It will stay this way if nothing is done against that.

SoSa: Looks balanced now. I am still a bit afraid of it but it might just be because I don't know the mechanic well enough yet. Let see how it affects the game.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: hendrydext on October 04, 2011, 08:27:57 am
Dimensional Shield + Protect Artifact give more advantages:
- playable
- no quanta loses.
- synergy with healing.
- 3 turn life saver (1 turn more than SoSac)

Then, why we should use SoSac anymore??
Maybe I am wrong. Please someone tell me a deck that really get the most benefit of SoSac..

About SoR: I think SoR needs a buff on it non-time use. Now it is underused and It will stay this way if nothing is done against that.
I think SoR is strong enough to use on non-time creature such as: mitosis creature and creature that use many quanta (such as nymph) or maybe creature that use quanta that there is not in main quanta.. So, SoR is quite strong card depend on the strategy.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 04, 2011, 11:56:25 am
yeah, i havent been able to hit the cap of 75, its pretty much irrelevant.  i guess it depends on what zanz is after as far as which is the better cap.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: the dictator on October 04, 2011, 03:16:36 pm
Dimensional Shield + Protect Artifact give more advantages:
- playable
- no quanta loses.
- synergy with healing.
- 3 turn life saver (1 turn more than SoSac)

Then, why we should use SoSac anymore??
Maybe I am wrong. Please someone tell me a deck that really get the most benefit of SoSac..
(..)
Well, basically all decks that don't use aether and earth ;)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: omegareaper7 on October 04, 2011, 07:19:39 pm
Dimensional Shield + Protect Artifact give more advantages:
- playable
- no quanta loses.
- synergy with healing.
- 3 turn life saver (1 turn more than SoSac)

Then, why we should use SoSac anymore??
Maybe I am wrong. Please someone tell me a deck that really get the most benefit of SoSac..

About SoR: I think SoR needs a buff on it non-time use. Now it is underused and It will stay this way if nothing is done against that.
I think SoR is strong enough to use on non-time creature such as: mitosis creature and creature that use many quanta (such as nymph) or maybe creature that use quanta that there is not in main quanta.. So, SoR is quite strong card depend on the strategy.
That combo requires two cards, not one, big difference.
Also, SoR was almost never used even on mitosis creatures because it takes up a slot that could be used for something more helpful. giving time creatures is fine, but others need something as well otherwise it still won't be used much except for expensive ability's and time creatures. I think that's what oldtrees was trying to say.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Elite arbiter on October 04, 2011, 07:53:13 pm
But perhaps thats the point? As in, the shards are supposed to have little use if you're not using that element. Non-time SoR isn't that good, but lets take a look at the others post-patch and compare.

Shard of Patience: Sure, you can make the scorp argument, but other than that this is going to be almost strictly with water decks. And so far I'm not seeing the scorp deck that'd be better with this than Dune-momentum or dark eclipse-venom scorp.

Shard of Divinity: 16 max hp and 16 hp, not going to help all that much. But +24 max hp / hp for a miracle stall? This can actually be useful. I don't see it outside light though.

Shard of Gratitude: Now inferior in every respect to sanctuary outside of Life. Rainbows now want sanc for the +1 hp and hand protection. But even life has feral bonds, so its niche is reserved for Fire Stall Life edition. Any deck that needs healing that bad can splash an easier heal method usually.

Shard of Void: Considering it doesn't deal damage, its a real niche card to utilize in the first place, and as its niche, if you're using it its a core part of the strategy. And if its a core part of the strategy... there's no reason to not Dark Mark. If you're not gonna go dark mark with it you can probably do whatever you're trying to do without the card.

Shard of Serendipity: Perhaps the only card without much use inside its own element, its a card purely for rainbows. But Entropy has always been the 'Rainbow' element, and this solidifies that.

Shard of Sacrifice: Not that good especially at its nerf outside of mono-death. This is because it drains your quanta, and unless you're using death this can be a big problem if you "need" to play it at a bad time. However in mono-death it is a beast, especially with bonewall, since your opponent needs to spam creatures to break the bonewall... but if they do then all their damage is out on the field for SoS to soak up. And in mono-death SoS costs nothing.

So yes, I can't see too many options for any shard to be played outside its own element, the fact that SoR is nearly helpless outside time just means that it was UP before the patch because it needed its time affinity to have a place worth playing.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Jocko on October 05, 2011, 04:54:20 pm
Totally irrelevant post:
Is entropy's new bg some kind of rock or crystal?
There's a forest on dawkness bg!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on October 05, 2011, 06:02:02 pm
Until we can use the cards in pvp, I think they are fine the way they are now.  Also the quanta cap should go back to 50, 75 is pointless unless you're playing firestall, and that is only one deck, plus using fahrenheit, you don't even need 75 quanta, probably not even 50 half the time.  And stone skin is fine at 50, any argument saying it should be at 75 no longer counts, it is a card that doesn't get used enough for any argument to count. 
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on October 05, 2011, 06:06:52 pm
Until we can use the cards in pvp, I think they are fine the way they are now.  Also the quanta cap should go back to 50, 75 is pointless unless you're playing firestall, and that is only one deck, plus using fahrenheit, you don't even need 75 quanta, probably not even 50 half the time.  And stone skin is fine at 50, any argument saying it should be at 75 no longer counts, it is a card that doesn't get used enough for any argument to count.
75 is barely enough for ROL/Hope to still be relevant as a grinder, 50 would pretty much kill it.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on October 05, 2011, 06:21:55 pm
Until we can use the cards in pvp, I think they are fine the way they are now.  Also the quanta cap should go back to 50, 75 is pointless unless you're playing firestall, and that is only one deck, plus using fahrenheit, you don't even need 75 quanta, probably not even 50 half the time.  And stone skin is fine at 50, any argument saying it should be at 75 no longer counts, it is a card that doesn't get used enough for any argument to count.
75 is barely enough for ROL/Hope to still be relevant as a grinder, 50 would pretty much kill it.
RoL Hope works well with Archangels too, you know. Also, it's the BEST grinder there is around now, I wouldn't mind it being slightly nerfed.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on October 05, 2011, 06:31:22 pm
Until we can use the cards in pvp, I think they are fine the way they are now.  Also the quanta cap should go back to 50, 75 is pointless unless you're playing firestall, and that is only one deck, plus using fahrenheit, you don't even need 75 quanta, probably not even 50 half the time.  And stone skin is fine at 50, any argument saying it should be at 75 no longer counts, it is a card that doesn't get used enough for any argument to count.
75 is barely enough for ROL/Hope to still be relevant as a grinder, 50 would pretty much kill it.
RoL Hope works well with Archangels too, you know. Also, it's the BEST grinder there is around now, I wouldn't mind it being slightly nerfed.
dragons are better against FGs with damage reduction shields or healing.  also, with only 6 needed upgraded card and 2-3 rares its fairly newbie accessible.  i havent done the math on archangels vs FGs with miracle though.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 05, 2011, 07:31:45 pm
Until we can use the cards in pvp, I think they are fine the way they are now.  Also the quanta cap should go back to 50, 75 is pointless unless you're playing firestall, and that is only one deck, plus using fahrenheit, you don't even need 75 quanta, probably not even 50 half the time.  And stone skin is fine at 50, any argument saying it should be at 75 no longer counts, it is a card that doesn't get used enough for any argument to count.
75 is barely enough for ROL/Hope to still be relevant as a grinder, 50 would pretty much kill it.
RoL Hope works well with Archangels too, you know. Also, it's the BEST grinder there is around now, I wouldn't mind it being slightly nerfed.
It is also mainly used for FG grinding although it is every once in a while for pvp. Aka, it is almost irrelevant that it is nerfed since  FG's shouldnt be considered.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: loadquo on October 05, 2011, 08:13:05 pm
dragons are better against FGs with damage reduction shields or healing.  also, with only 6 needed upgraded card and 2-3 rares its fairly newbie accessible.  i havent done the math on archangels vs FGs with miracle though.
I'm not really sure what the problem is. I've been playing unupped Rol/hope against the FG and think you should be able to do okay against miracle using FGs. Just fractal earlier play a few dragons and calculate the damage so that you can easily tip the balance. Lets say you've fractalled and played 2 of the dragons, you are now doing 40 (ish) damage per turn. With 50 quanta and 4 dragons in hand you can kill FGs with up to 80 hp.

If you aren't going to hit 50-75hp when you fractal, e.g. they are at 120hp then you need to play out more dragons to manage the HP.

Admittedly I haven't done much FG grinding so there might be some subtleties I'm missing.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on October 05, 2011, 08:21:07 pm
dragons are better against FGs with damage reduction shields or healing.  also, with only 6 needed upgraded card and 2-3 rares its fairly newbie accessible.  i havent done the math on archangels vs FGs with miracle though.
I'm not really sure what the problem is. I've been playing unupped Rol/hope against the FG and think you should be able to do okay against miracle using FGs. Just fractal earlier play a few dragons and calculate the damage so that you can easily tip the balance. Lets say you've fractalled and played 2 of the dragons, you are now doing 40 (ish) damage per turn. With 50 quanta and 4 dragons in hand you can kill FGs with up to 80 hp.

If you aren't going to hit 50-75hp when you fractal, e.g. they are at 120hp then you need to play out more dragons to manage the HP.

Admittedly I haven't done much FG grinding so there might be some subtleties I'm missing.
4 dragons for 40 damage.  the buffer for using miracle is damage on board +30.  its still possible, but you have to pretty much perfectly calculate your damage output.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on October 05, 2011, 08:24:47 pm
I've been making ridiculous electrum with Archangels in RoL/Hope for about a year, and you never need 75 :light.
It's not a deck that suffers from a cap since I think it works just as well with Angels, and even with Dragons you very rarely need that much. 50 would be a bit bothersome, but 75 gives you 5 Dragons. Not even necessary. You just have to think a little before playing all your awesome Dragons early, roar.

The few decks that suffer slightly from a cap of 75 are Fractal Dragon decks that have no Blitz, which is something you've only seen prominently in War so far. By Team Aether. And that's just slightly.

Something that's completely killed off is Sudden Killer, but that's just a PvE deck, and a pretty mediocre one.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on October 05, 2011, 08:27:04 pm
I've been making ridiculous electrum with Archangels in RoL/Hope for about a year, and you never need 75 :light.
It's not a deck that suffers from a cap since I think it works just as well with Angels, and even with Dragons you very rarely need that much. 50 would be a bit bothersome, but 75 gives you 5 Dragons. Not even necessary. You just have to think a little before playing all your awesome Dragons early, roar.

The few decks that suffer slightly from a cap of 75 are Fractal Dragon decks that have no Blitz, which is something you've only seen prominently in War so far. By Team Aether. And that's just slightly.

Something that's completely killed off is Sudden Killer, but that's just a PvE deck, and a pretty mediocre one.
yeah, i am ok with the cap of 75, its a little bothersome, but manageable. i was explaining why 50 was really bad.  is it still mark dependant?  ive been grinding the regular version while its still easy and havent gone back to the beta,
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 05, 2011, 08:44:55 pm
I've been making ridiculous electrum with Archangels in RoL/Hope for about a year, and you never need 75 :light.
It's not a deck that suffers from a cap since I think it works just as well with Angels, and even with Dragons you very rarely need that much. 50 would be a bit bothersome, but 75 gives you 5 Dragons. Not even necessary. You just have to think a little before playing all your awesome Dragons early, roar.

The few decks that suffer slightly from a cap of 75 are Fractal Dragon decks that have no Blitz, which is something you've only seen prominently in War so far. By Team Aether. And that's just slightly.

Something that's completely killed off is Sudden Killer, but that's just a PvE deck, and a pretty mediocre one.

yeah, i am ok with the cap of 75, its a little bothersome, but manageable. i was explaining why 50 was really bad.  is it still mark dependant?  ive been grinding the regular version while its still easy and havent gone back to the beta,
So its a fractal nerf as well? Another card that many people agree needs nerfed. Meanwhile, once again, FG's shouldnt be considered.
RoL hope, just makes you have to wait a little before playing ALL of the dragons. You can still get full use out of fractal, it will just take a turn or 2 more.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on October 05, 2011, 08:50:44 pm
I've been making ridiculous electrum with Archangels in RoL/Hope for about a year, and you never need 75 :light.
It's not a deck that suffers from a cap since I think it works just as well with Angels, and even with Dragons you very rarely need that much. 50 would be a bit bothersome, but 75 gives you 5 Dragons. Not even necessary. You just have to think a little before playing all your awesome Dragons early, roar.

The few decks that suffer slightly from a cap of 75 are Fractal Dragon decks that have no Blitz, which is something you've only seen prominently in War so far. By Team Aether. And that's just slightly.

Something that's completely killed off is Sudden Killer, but that's just a PvE deck, and a pretty mediocre one.

yeah, i am ok with the cap of 75, its a little bothersome, but manageable. i was explaining why 50 was really bad.  is it still mark dependant?  ive been grinding the regular version while its still easy and havent gone back to the beta,
So its a fractal nerf as well? Another card that many people agree needs nerfed. Meanwhile, once again, FG's shouldnt be considered.
RoL hope, just makes you have to wait a little before playing ALL of the dragons. You can still get full use out of fractal, it will just take a turn or 2 more.
again, except against FGs, or for that matter PVP players, with miracle.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ddevans96 on October 05, 2011, 08:55:35 pm
I almost always play my dragons ASAP and wait for the miracles to run out, and decking out is never a problem unless I would have anyways due to my draw. So no, it isn't a huge issue.

I'd be much more concerned about the nerfs to ice bolt and drain life.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on October 05, 2011, 10:13:49 pm
Decks that use ice bolts to kill are LOL.
The only deck that uses siphons to kill is what, pestal?  Otherwise they are used for CC.
So neither card is being affected much, one deck being hurt only slightly (pestal) is not significant enough.

A cap of 75 means there is no change in the way people play which defeats the purpose of introducing a quanta cap.
A cap of 50 means you may need to rethink your deck a bit if you absolutely require more than 50 quanta at any one time. 
So there are 2 main decks that use more than 50 quanta, rol/hope and firestall.  There are better FG grinders, and making electrum is easy because of the arena, so the newb factor of rol/hope is an irrelevant point.  Like what was mentioned about calculating damage, that only happens against a few fgs anyway, so the NEED to fractal dragons and to play a full hand all at once is completely unnecessary.  You can have 2 dragons in play, and play 5 more (unupped obviously, or only 4 upped) for a final blow.  Now firestall, the deck everyone complains about.  No one likes playing against it in pvp, or in the arena.  Aside from the complaints about it, any good firestall uses fahrenheit, and that can easily reduce your opponents hp to 50-60 hp, and what does that mean?  With 30 quanta,  you only need 4 fire bolts, which might not kill, but then your fahrenheit can deal the final hit that turn.

50 cap is needed, it will change up the way some decks are played, which is good, and the fact that people are QQ'ing so much about how much it will hurt firestall is stupid, those same people will complain if they encounter a firestall deck in the arena.

Conclusion, 75 quanta cap changes nothing, so might as well not even have a cap then.  But 50 quanta cap nerfs firestall, BUT NOT EVEN THAT MUCH, and it does desperately need a bit of nerfing anyway. 
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Zaealix on October 05, 2011, 10:18:29 pm
Strange as it might sound, I slightly feel that this actuall 'buffs' them in a sence, as their much more popular cousin, Fire Bolt, is now held to a certain amount of damage. Drain Life and Ice Bolt Respectively are more 'utility' spells, that is, they have support effects that are supposed to compensate for their reduced destructive power. The Cap, effectivly limits how much better Fire bolt can be than the other two spells, for without the cap, a 100 :fire quanta Fire bolt hit for 33 damage. Drain Life is 'better' for it's defensive effect of healing you for as much damage as it does, but the secondary limiter of not being able to take more life than the target has means that at higher quanta levels, that healing is useless unless used directly on another elemental. Ice Bolt just got the short end of the stick, with increased probabality that seemed to generally only need 1 or 2 more 'attacks' to garuntee a freeze, not withstanding a beat the odds occurance.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ddevans96 on October 05, 2011, 10:29:30 pm
Going from relatively weak to very weak is different from this minuscule nerf to firestall. And since ice bolt and drain life are affected much more than firestall, this is most definitely not a buff to them in any way.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 06, 2011, 03:43:07 am
alterations can always be made later if icebolt or drain life need a lift- but considering their additional utility, i dont think it is such a big deal.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Elite arbiter on October 06, 2011, 08:01:14 am
Ice bolt probably not, since it works as damage and a Freeze which can be used on a weapon. Even a weapon that isn't there yet, it'll be frozen when it comes out. And stopping a CCYB's Pulvy or Eternity for 3 crucial turns can make or break a game.

Drain Life though probably needs a small buff in its current state, albeit not a overall buff. Perhaps it could also reduce Max Life by half of the damage it deals, giving it synergy with the Shard of Void. Although this might be unneeded, or perhaps better utilized in a different pump spell.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: silux on October 06, 2011, 10:22:22 pm
Max cost of a card 14(phase dragon)*8= 112>75
75//8=9
So with a 75quanta cap you cannot empty your full filled fractal hand in one go if you have cards that cost more than 9.
So stop dragon fractal.
This is actually a little nerf to:
Dragons
Fractal
Firebolt
Drain Bolt
Rustler
Ice bolt

And a minor buff to
Nightmare
Devourer


I don't like a nerf campaign, as i will use less powerful cards.
It's like battling with wooden swords!
Shards shouldn't have so little stats!I'd rather pack a upped Short sword(3atk 1 cost), than a shard that heals me for 3 and cost 3.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on October 06, 2011, 10:55:51 pm
Max cost of a card 14(phase dragon)*8= 112>75
75//8=9
So with a 75quanta cap you cannot empty your full filled fractal hand in one go if you have cards that cost more than 9.
So stop dragon fractal.
This is actually a little nerf to:
Dragons
Fractal
Firebolt
Drain Bolt
Rustler
Ice bolt

And a minor buff to
Nightmare
Devourer


I don't like a nerf campaign, as i will use less powerful cards.
It's like battling with wooden swords!
Shards shouldn't have so little stats!I'd rather pack a upped Short sword(3atk 1 cost), than a shard that heals me for 3 and cost 3.
1) You can't fractal phase dragons, no matter how hard you try.
2) Fractal + dragons is really slow and mainly used in rol/hope which has been explained previously that you don't need to play 8 dragons all at once.
3) WTF does rustler have to do with anything?  Do you seriously need 150 life quanta all at once?
4)
Quote
I don't like a nerf campaign, as i will use less powerful cards.
I fail to see the problem with people using other cards than firestall cards.

Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on October 06, 2011, 11:36:44 pm
I fail to see the problem with people using other cards than firestall cards.
I do!  It means less EMs for me when I play vs the arena if people aren't using crappy firestalls there.

But regarding the quanta cap, like bucky has said (about a hundred times :D) it will impact the game very little.  Unless your deck has one of a very few cards, having more than 75, or even 50 quanta, does not matter; the cap might as well be infinite.

Fire Lance, Ice Lance, Siphon Life, Granite Skin, Fahrenheit, Dissipation Shield/Field... I think that's about it that are are affected directly.  There are a few other specific decks that are affected indirectly, like anything with Fractal and expensive creatures.

On the positive side, a quanta cap will hopefully discourage people from playing RoL/Hope to farm FGs and force them to find another FG farmer.  A lot of people on the forums are of the mistaken impression that it's the best, but there's quite a few that are better, at least when you consider upgraded decks.

I've mentioned some of this in the thread before most likely, but it's probably buried way back somewhere.  Unless Zanzarino has plans to make the quanta cap more meaningful in the game, it doesn't really accomplish anything.  Mind you, it doesn't really hurt the game either, so I'm neutral towards the change.  I'm much more excited about the new shards coming, and to a lesser degree the rebalancing for cremation/explosion/schrodinger's cat.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bogtro on October 07, 2011, 04:08:02 am
[00:04:53] zanzarino: Ok, I am going to go and clean up the new version and put it online - lurking now
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bogtro on October 07, 2011, 04:35:03 am
[00:34:30] zanzarino: Ok 1.29 is now live...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ndclub on October 07, 2011, 04:55:09 am
Best change in the patch is explosion receiving one more cost(cremation tiny nerf almost as good too) THANK YOU. Makes much more balance sense now and the game will be better for it.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: zanzarino on October 07, 2011, 05:23:05 am
OP updated. Hopefully I remembered everything.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on October 07, 2011, 05:23:59 am
OP updated. Hopefully I remembered everything.
You forgot the new Darkness background. :D
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: zanzarino on October 07, 2011, 05:28:00 am
OP updated. Hopefully I remembered everything.
You forgot the new Darkness background. :D
CTRL F5 ? :)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on October 07, 2011, 05:46:35 am
OP updated. Hopefully I remembered everything.
You forgot the new Darkness background. :D
CTRL F5 ? :)
Woo, thanks! :D

And yay for 1.29! *prepares for grueling rare farming session*
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: 18237 on October 07, 2011, 07:35:36 am
Exams in 5 days...must...resist...urge...to...farm...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on October 07, 2011, 07:39:07 am
Don't worry about farming for a bit.  As far as I can tell, the new shards are not yet available in rare spins.  I've had 2 or 3 rare spins so far and haven't seen one in the reels.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Anthraxx on October 07, 2011, 07:43:41 am
Are the arena rare spins the only source of the new shards? What about the FGs? Beta only or?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ralouf on October 07, 2011, 07:44:34 am
can't play this WE must think about something else i can't farm either so bad !

I like a lot the new oracle though , he gave me an amber nymph for my first spin in 1.29 :)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Snopel on October 07, 2011, 07:59:48 am
Well. I guess this ends the Firestall FG Farming deck.
Probably for the better.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Lord_Jadem on October 07, 2011, 08:16:17 am
Interesting note: if you use Time creature's ability, then add Shard of Readiness you get two additional uses for a total of 3 that round.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Elite arbiter on October 07, 2011, 08:37:22 am
However this means that you didn't use the shard on it the first turn that it was out, so ultimately its the same # of uses, thus perfectly fine

Turn 1 shard
Turn 1 has 2 uses, Turn 2 has 1 use, total 3.

Turn 2 shard
Turn 1 has 0 uses, Turn 2 has 3, for a total of 3.

Except turn 2 shard is a little worse off since you still have to pay for use #1. The benefit to Turn 2 shard is that you do not have to shard for an extra turn incase you don't have the quanta, don't have the shard, and so on. Good to know about though.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Dwerg on October 07, 2011, 08:41:39 am
Explosion/deflag nerf hurts more all other elements than fire.
The rushing side of fire been nerfed a lil, and the main prob everyone was concerned about was the stalling potential and it's versatility, both aspects are still there.
Immo still generates +11 other quanta which gives room for lots of 1~2 cost keycards from other elements (Rewind, purify, thunderbolt, etc).
Bolts are still very useful as cc and fahrenheit deals more than enough damage so the bolts are still good finishers.

There shouldn't be a quanta cap cause of two overpowered cards, that will still remain overpowered cards.

@Anthraxx:
shards are added to all AI's in beta for testing purposes, so I don't think there is any FG with shards
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rowcla on October 07, 2011, 08:52:05 am
oh god this annoys me

my favorite element has had some major nerfs, darkness and especially earth looks weird, and the health thingy is just distracting...

change earth back at least!

EDIT: and death looks weird! change that too!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Jaymanfu on October 07, 2011, 08:53:45 am
change earth back at least!
You'll get used to it in time, it was too close to Time anyways... hehehe
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rowcla on October 07, 2011, 08:55:41 am
I dunno...

oh yeah and the thing showing rares is distracting as well....


wow i hate this update...

at least the shards are cool...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Scaredgirl on October 07, 2011, 08:56:16 am
oh god this annoys me

my favorite element has had some major nerfs, darkness and especially earth looks weird, and the health thingy is just distracting...

change earth back at least!
Things look weird to you just because they look different. After a couple of days/weeks, all that weirdness will be replaced with awesomeness. :)

ninja'd.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rowcla on October 07, 2011, 08:58:55 am
oh god this annoys me

my favorite element has had some major nerfs, darkness and especially earth looks weird, and the health thingy is just distracting...

change earth back at least!
Things look weird to you just because they look different. After a couple of days/weeks, all that weirdness will be replaced with awesomeness. :)

ninja'd.
I DONT LIKE CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!

ah well, at least entropy is fine, as a matter of fact i dislike all the others...

definitely prefer every other update in existence
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on October 07, 2011, 09:07:18 am
Explosion/deflag nerf hurts more all other elements than fire.
The rushing side of fire been nerfed a lil, and the main prob everyone was concerned about was the stalling potential and it's versatility, both aspects are still there.
Immo still generates +11 other quanta which gives room for lots of 1~2 cost keycards from other elements (Rewind, purify, thunderbolt, etc).
Bolts are still very useful as cc and fahrenheit deals more than enough damage so the bolts are still good finishers.
Exactly. Fire is still OP element, in Arena we have still Fire domination. Cap 75 change NOTHING. Ok, new shard for Aether can change it, but You can't win game using only defense cards.
When Heal cost 3/2, why FireLance (IceBolt etc) cost 3/1?
Immolation should give only :fire quantum - then it will be real nerf.
Fire is powerful, when we add new Shard and new card it will be more powerful... Game hasn't got balance.
I see that 1.291 (or 1.30 with new card) will be buffing fire, not nerfing.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rember on October 07, 2011, 09:31:58 am
Explosion/deflag nerf hurts more all other elements than fire.
The rushing side of fire been nerfed a lil, and the main prob everyone was concerned about was the stalling potential and it's versatility, both aspects are still there.
Immo still generates +11 other quanta which gives room for lots of 1~2 cost keycards from other elements (Rewind, purify, thunderbolt, etc).
Bolts are still very useful as cc and fahrenheit deals more than enough damage so the bolts are still good finishers.
Exactly. Fire is still OP element, in Arena we have still Fire domination. Cap 75 change NOTHING. Ok, new shard for Aether can change it, but You can't win game using only defense cards.
When Heal cost 3/2, why FireLance (IceBolt etc) cost 3/1?
Immolation should give only :fire quantum - then it will be real nerf.
Fire is powerful, when we add new Shard and new card it will be more powerful... Game hasn't got balance.
I see that 1.291 (or 1.30 with new card) will be buffing fire, not nerfing.
Cmon, posts like this already, really? Give it a week at least for the current decks in arena to drop out and then a month for the new shards to proliferate then we'll see where things stand. Fire took a massive hit this patch and we don't even know what the new card/shard will be and yet you're already preaching doom.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Polari on October 07, 2011, 09:50:43 am
Unupped shards got a price buff, nice. Earlier I couldn't be arsed to sell those ~60 unupped green shards for 5g each, feels good man.

Also I want to say I hate the rare/legendary indicator. How did it ever sound like a good idea to put some high-contrast stripes behind the card name?

edit - and now that earth doesn't look like time anymore, it looks like gravity
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on October 07, 2011, 10:02:50 am
Cmon, posts like this already, really? Give it a week at least for the current decks in arena to drop out and then a month for the new shards to proliferate then we'll see where things stand. Fire took a massive hit this patch and we don't even know what the new card/shard will be and yet you're already preaching doom.
Do You really think that after week we will see at top decks  :air :life :light or  :water? OK, we can wait and see ;)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: EmeraldTiger on October 07, 2011, 01:06:55 pm
Could the trainer please be updated?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Plantifant on October 07, 2011, 01:19:03 pm
I like fate egg + SoR :-)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rickerd on October 07, 2011, 01:29:33 pm
almost al cards gain a boost but only SoG became bad that's stupid because it was a cool card in my CCYB :(
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Blues on October 07, 2011, 04:32:39 pm
I don't like the new card backgrounds at all.
Just to say.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on October 07, 2011, 04:35:35 pm
I love all the new backgrounds after getting used to them. Especially purdy if you make a rainbow deck :>
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on October 07, 2011, 05:10:57 pm
Yeah, I'm pretty happy with the new card frames, too.  I especially like the upped earth/death ones and the unupped darkness one.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bogtro on October 07, 2011, 05:40:22 pm
My thoughts:

a) Immolation Nerf - a usable idea, although I really would have preferred Phoenix going to 8.
b) Deflag Nerf - bleh. This hurts every other element much more than it hurts fire (so much for deflag in novabows). Kind of strange change.
c) Ash Nerf - Ok, this makes some sense at least.
d) New backgrounds: <3
e) Stripes: </3. Look really really ugly.
f) Shards: <3 Void, SoG is nice, SoD doesn't seem like much of a change, <3 SoR, </3 SoS, </3 SoSe, not sure about patience yet.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Plantifant on October 07, 2011, 06:11:47 pm
I think I like the whole update.
The new backgrounds are just AMAZING!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rickerd on October 07, 2011, 06:16:41 pm
I think I like the whole update.
The new backgrounds are just AMAZING!
yeah that's for sure  ;)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Calindu on October 07, 2011, 06:21:12 pm
May I ask who is the  :darkness one artist?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Toxx on October 07, 2011, 07:08:15 pm
My only compliant about the new card arts is the leaf and bone art in the backgrounds of  :life and  :death are no longer as visable as they once were, which don't make them look as special or unique to their element. The Dark and Earth backgrounds are definatley better though in look more in their nature.

Anyone else think SoG and SoD should get a little buff or something if you use their corresponding elements ? They aren't much of a benefit or upgrade from the old version as SoR was to time.

How about a new quest when you get to pick a Shard like the quest where you pick a Weapon. Once all the shards are release preferably.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Blues on October 07, 2011, 07:49:07 pm
Yeah, I'm pretty happy with the new card frames, too.  I especially like the upped earth/death ones and the unupped darkness one.
I think  :earth cards look like  :gravity cards now, it irritates me every time I look for Basilisk Blood in my deck.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: tyranim on October 07, 2011, 07:49:35 pm
when you scroll over the opponent's mark, their max health shines through
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: The_Mormegil on October 07, 2011, 08:43:55 pm
How about a new quest when you get to pick a Shard like the quest where you pick a Weapon. Once all the shards are release preferably.
This is a very intresting idea.

By the way, I love 1.29 now. We still need something against Firestall, and SoR+DejaVu is still silly fast (2 turn wins!) but it's all going to be ok in the future. :D
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on October 07, 2011, 08:51:46 pm
For the SoR thing, maybe just making it so you can't use the ability on the first turn after playing SoR would be enough?  That would slow down the SoR/deja vu deck by a turn, and give a chance to kill it before it divides into 3.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: TheForbiddenOracle on October 07, 2011, 09:02:33 pm
For the SoR thing, maybe just making it so you can't use the ability on the first turn after playing SoR would be enough?  That would slow down the SoR/deja vu deck by a turn, and give a chance to kill it before it divides into 3.
Wouldn't that be the same as before the buff?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on October 07, 2011, 09:18:44 pm
No, because time creatures would still be able to use their abilities twice, just not until the turn after you play SoR.  (unless the creatuer was already in play to start the turn, and then you could use it immediately as normal)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on October 07, 2011, 09:54:20 pm
No, because time creatures would still be able to use their abilities twice, just not until the turn after you play SoR.  (unless the creatuer was already in play to start the turn, and then you could use it immediately as normal)
SoR with Adrenaline was better for DejaVu (and probably OP with momentum) than is now. I think that this change was very good. Now SoR skill is compatibile with Time and gives for Time advantage. Win in 2 turns is nearly impossible (only mathematic chances: with win toss coin, perfect hand, a lot of lucky and no opponent reaction).
I also like changes for SoP (+1/0 instead 1/1 was good decision).
Maybe only SoS is too annoying.

We are waiting for other Shards ;)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 07, 2011, 09:55:51 pm
and i just now realized how tedious it will be farming to get enough SoSe's =/
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rutarete on October 07, 2011, 10:48:52 pm
How about a new quest when you get to pick a Shard like the quest where you pick a Weapon. Once all the shards are release preferably.
I like that idea.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: teffy on October 07, 2011, 10:56:40 pm
Quote from: Toxx
How about a new quest when you get to pick a Shard like the quest where you pick a Weapon. Once all the shards are release preferably.
I totally support this idea. Shards are a better reward than weapons, but not as good as nymphs or marks, which shouldn´t be quest rewards. A shard reward would also introduce new players into the rare system of shards. All we need is a good quest task for players.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rowcla on October 07, 2011, 11:31:08 pm
Quote from: Toxx
How about a new quest when you get to pick a Shard like the quest where you pick a Weapon. Once all the shards are release preferably.
I totally support this idea. Shards are a better reward than weapons, but not as good as nymphs or marks, which shouldn´t be quest rewards. A shard reward would also introduce new players into the rare system of shards. All we need is a good quest task for players.
I approve, just as long as it doesnt replace the old one....

Maybe it could be rewarded for beating your first FG? I've heard that a lot of people found it kind of anticlimactic when they won...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 07, 2011, 11:34:47 pm
or maybe a repeatable quest?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rowcla on October 07, 2011, 11:36:47 pm
or maybe a repeatable quest?
well that would probably need to be made something which noobs can do but more experienced player cant do really fast, what do you propose?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: furballdn on October 07, 2011, 11:43:51 pm
I love all the new backgrounds after getting used to them. Especially purdy if you make a rainbow deck :>
Earth seems a bit too dark than what I was used to, but they are really pretty. I also find it neat how on the deckbuilding screen even your mark has little stripes on the left.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Elite arbiter on October 07, 2011, 11:52:31 pm
If there is to be a new shard quest, then either it should be for the FG, although I'd throw out the 'experienced players can't do it fast and new players can do' requirement since I don't see that working unless a lot of effort is put in.

Like for instance, if the more elaborate quest type ideas are put in like a storyline. Beating a FG is the simplest solution though.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rowcla on October 07, 2011, 11:54:18 pm
If there is to be a new shard quest, then either it should be for the FG, although I'd throw out the 'experienced players can't do it fast and new players can do' requirement since I don't see that working unless a lot of effort is put in.

Like for instance, if the more elaborate quest type ideas are put in like a storyline. Beating a FG is the simplest solution though.
the requirement was only really if it were to be a repeatable quest, getting a shard each time you beat an fg seems like too much...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 07, 2011, 11:59:21 pm
or maybe a repeatable quest?
well that would probably need to be made something which noobs can do but more experienced player cant do really fast, what do you propose?
well, it could be a once per day quest to prevent speed of experienced players from being an issue...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rowcla on October 08, 2011, 12:02:19 am
or maybe a repeatable quest?
well that would probably need to be made something which noobs can do but more experienced player cant do really fast, what do you propose?
well, it could be a once per day quest to prevent speed of experienced players from being an issue...
A shard a day still feels like too much...

maybe whenever you reach a higher arena level after silver league or something, i know it takes me ages to level, though having it at lower levels would be too easy...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: TheManuz on October 08, 2011, 12:05:21 am
or maybe a repeatable quest?
well that would probably need to be made something which noobs can do but more experienced player cant do really fast, what do you propose?
well, it could be a once per day quest to prevent speed of experienced players from being an issue...
Maybe it should be linked to the Oracle?
For example, if you win a match (don't know what AI would be more appropriate) with your pet still alive you win a shard.
This way you got only 3 attempt per day.
... I just realized that Quintessence would make this quest almost useless...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rowcla on October 08, 2011, 12:09:13 am
or maybe a repeatable quest?
well that would probably need to be made something which noobs can do but more experienced player cant do really fast, what do you propose?
well, it could be a once per day quest to prevent speed of experienced players from being an issue...
Maybe it should be linked to the Oracle?
For example, if you win a match (don't know what AI would be more appropriate) with your pet still alive you win a shard.
This way you got only 3 attempt per day.
... I just realized that Quintessence would make this quest almost useless...
eeyup, quint does make this too easy...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Essence on October 08, 2011, 12:25:19 am
I don't think a repeatable Shard quest is a good idea.  But a high-end 'obtain your first Shard here' quest is a good idea, and of course daily quests blah blah blah.  BTW, everyone even vaguely interested in game design should read this (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/1583/rethinking_the_mmo.php).  It's chock full of great advice that kind of semi-applies to Elements. :)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 08, 2011, 12:26:00 am
the ease/frequency of the quest really depends on how much zanz wants us to use the new cards, or how much he wants them to be the least common of the rare cards.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on October 08, 2011, 12:26:12 am
A simple quest like killing your first halfblood or maybe false god for a shard would be reasonable, if it was a one-off thing.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: zanzarino on October 08, 2011, 01:15:17 am
The shards are now available in the arena and as a donation reward now.

Edit: About deja vu / SoR. I am doing some testing, I think that the 3rd copy is simply too much. I am probably going to just let the code do what it naturally did, zero the skill, activate the skill and, when the skill is used, two copies of the deja vu are created - the skill is gone.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on October 08, 2011, 01:20:29 am
The shards are now available in the arena and as a donation reward now.
Brilliant. Time to get me some shards.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: furballdn on October 08, 2011, 01:53:18 am
Time to head back to bronze!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 08, 2011, 01:59:05 am
Time to head back to bronze!
Time to farm anything but bronze for :electrum while everyone is farming it for shards.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: majofa on October 08, 2011, 02:04:18 am
The shards are now available in the arena and as a donation reward now.

Edit: About deja vu / SoR. I am doing some testing, I think that the 3rd copy is simply too much. I am probably going to just let the code do what it naturally did, zero the skill, activate the skill and, when the skill is used, two copies of the deja vu are created - the skill is gone.
Nuuu... can you leave it for Fate Egg?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Essence on October 08, 2011, 02:08:15 am
Quote
About deja vu / SoR. I am doing some testing, I think that the 3rd copy is simply too much. I am probably going to just let the code do what it naturally did, zero the skill, activate the skill and, when the skill is used, two copies of the deja vu are created - the skill is gone.
Sadly, I have to agree.  I loved that short period of extremely regular 3-turn wins for the deck that would have been Ready, Aim, Miss Fire, but it was just too much. :)  Good call.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 08, 2011, 02:27:29 am
Technically my 2 turn win deck averages a lot more than that. It requires the perfect hand, and aside from that, CPs average 3 atk a buff, which would only give the combo 24 dmg a turn which would be a 5 turn win (4 if you play another monster).

Ok yeah... even then it sounds OP... I DON WANT IT NERFED a nerf is needed :(
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Elite arbiter on October 08, 2011, 02:34:43 am
Indeed, that 'did' need a nerf. I remember checking up on Miss Fire from the Featured Community Member thread, and then imagining all the Epinephrines replaces with SoR's. Sure it'd 'occasionally' screw up by eating quanta needed for momentum but other than that...

Time to head back to bronze!
Time to farm anything but bronze for :electrum while everyone is farming it for shards.
Farm Silver. Besides the fact that it makes actual electrum, it is faster since the majority of the decks there don't know how to do basic things like quanta balance, or click the Dexterity Button.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: EmeraldTiger on October 08, 2011, 02:36:57 am
please put 1.29 in the trainer.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: zanzarino on October 08, 2011, 02:58:53 am
please put 1.29 in the trainer.
It has been in the trainer for almost 24h now
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on October 08, 2011, 03:04:14 am
If I kill myself with Shard of Sacrifice in pvp2, it says I lose the game as it should, but my opponent doesn't see that play, and it looks like I have disconnected to him.  Happened twice.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: EmeraldTiger on October 08, 2011, 04:01:10 am
please put 1.29 in the trainer.
It has been in the trainer for almost 24h now

I had to clear cache for it to show, thank you.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: groupgamegame on October 08, 2011, 04:56:51 am
I am not really happy about the nerf, because I only have a few upgraded cards( my shards), and these shards of gratitude are less useful now.
This adversly affects mye efficiency of my deck, because the healing power of shards is equal to that of sanc.

By the way, it is impossible to put arena into trainer,right?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Korugar on October 08, 2011, 01:10:30 pm
You basically just said you don't like it because it inconveniences you....I'm sorry, but that's not a great reason. This was a well needed nerf to the card that (A) was too powerful and (B) was cutting in on Life's theme. That's all better now....
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Toxx on October 08, 2011, 04:03:07 pm
Nice upgraded art for Otyugh, I just notice it and thought I was seeing things at first lol
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Danceman on October 08, 2011, 09:28:53 pm
cool, a new version. I had noticed some strange differences. :)

Thank you for this great game
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on October 08, 2011, 09:33:59 pm
the new otyugh art is nice but im not sure how i feel about it.. but thats a minor thing. Also think the earth background is too dark brown.. lighten it a little i think.

Just curious if anyone else is having issues winning games in arena. maybe just string of bad luck idk but i was able to at least get rares from gold; and silver and bronze were never a problem, now it seems no matter what deck i try or using my usual rainbow that i have tweaked here and there i still lose. maybe bad luck idk, just seems that getting 1 single rare from arena became 100 fold harder and i dont see why. also, it would be nice if you actually would WIN a rare when u get that spin.. i unfortunately have gotten 0 rares in the last 2 of 3 spins.. 1 gave me shard of divinity right off the bat. which sucked... and the other 2 spins didnt even come close to getting <<<<2>>>> in a row.. maybe thats supposed to happen idk?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Onizuka on October 08, 2011, 09:39:30 pm
I've gotten 50+ special spins off of silver/bronze after the new shards have been implemented and have won quite a few rares.

Haven't seen a new shard yet, but eh.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 08, 2011, 09:47:12 pm
I've gotten 50+ special spins off of silver/bronze after the new shards have been implemented and have won quite a few rares.

Haven't seen a new shard yet, but eh.
qft.  ive basically given up at this point.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on October 08, 2011, 09:51:56 pm
not sure what qft is.. i have a guess lol, and yea im pretty much sick of trying to get the new shards.. i really only wanted to use SoSe to see if it was actually going to help me in actual game like it did in trainer. if Arena is only way to get them screw it. i dont have hours and hours to spend playing just to lose the very last match or not win a rare at all if i do make it to last one. maybe when others get them in their decks i can just win them off of them from normal spins. ill just wait till then.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 08, 2011, 09:58:27 pm
qft is quoted for truth, qfe is quoted for emphasis, but its less common.

it does seem that arena farming and paying $5 are the only ways to get ahold of them, but with so many weapons and dumb rares clogging up the spins, and it taking ~20 minutes per bonus spin from bronze farming, it doesnt feel very fun.  i wish the wins didnt have to be consecutive so i could play gold or platinum instead.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on October 08, 2011, 10:04:12 pm
i agree.. i cant even count the times i got faced with 2 easier platinums and then bam.. fireownage game 3.. or some lame start and they get OMFG miracle rape start... ive pretty much stopped playing for few days now starting today.. unless WOE puts me in a battle its just losing interest.. takes far too much time just to get 1 new shard let alone many.. and my own arena decks never do well.. it seems bronze and platinum dont have 500 people in them? which leads them to be able to play longer and gain more electrum whereas in gold, 1 or 2 loses and your out.. even if i was 5/2 i was >500. Im lucky to get 5 or 10 electrum and my decks last a day? the one time i got Firelance it lasted 1 day.. went 3|3. Idk what magical decks you guys are putting up to last days on end and gain you decent electrum but Gold arena certainly sucks for me.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: pikachufan2164 on October 08, 2011, 11:16:53 pm
I've gotten 50+ special spins off of silver/bronze after the new shards have been implemented and have won quite a few rares.

Haven't seen a new shard yet, but eh.
Number of rares in the game = 12 (weapons) + 3 (Squid, Pharaoh, Miracle) + 3 (old shards) + 4 (new shards) = 22
Cards called up in bonus spins = 4

I have made tests with the (unupped) rare spinner. It has 4 cards.
Assuming that each rare is equally likely to be called up for the rare spin:

P (no new shards called up) = 18/22 * 17/21 * 16/20 * 15/19 = 0.418
P (at least one new shard called up) = 0.582

That's right. Almost 60% chance of seeing a new shard :\
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 08, 2011, 11:30:25 pm
that math has to be off.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ddevans96 on October 08, 2011, 11:34:43 pm
It's definitely right, up to that point, but his math doesn't factor the actual possibilities of the spins.

My math would probably be completely wrong though, so I'm not going to try :)

Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 08, 2011, 11:37:26 pm
ive been drinking too much tonight to be able to do math (drinking is the only way i can cope with grinding), but roughly a 60% chance to have any of the 4 new cards show up feels wrong.  maybe i have just been screwed by having my shards selected to show up one of the three or four times today that i won a weapon on the initial spin (without any respins on a particular wheel), but im putting arena grinding for new rares in the "not fun" category.

it would be nice if we could just pay 1000 coin for a new shard from the bazaar.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Elite arbiter on October 08, 2011, 11:40:17 pm
i agree.. i cant even count the times i got faced with 2 easier platinums and then bam.. fireownage game 3.. or some lame start and they get OMFG miracle rape start... ive pretty much stopped playing for few days now starting today.. unless WOE puts me in a battle its just losing interest.. takes far too much time just to get 1 new shard let alone many.. and my own arena decks never do well.. it seems bronze and platinum dont have 500 people in them? which leads them to be able to play longer and gain more electrum whereas in gold, 1 or 2 loses and your out.. even if i was 5/2 i was >500. Im lucky to get 5 or 10 electrum and my decks last a day? the one time i got Firelance it lasted 1 day.. went 3|3. Idk what magical decks you guys are putting up to last days on end and gain you decent electrum but Gold arena certainly sucks for me.
Yeah, gold arena is a bit more competitive. I'll throw out the most basic piece of advice even though it feels natural for everyone to know it because I "do" see decks in silver and sometimes gold that fail this rule. Turn. Dexterity. On. No, I don't care if your deck is lvl 21 and that means you can't have 200 hp, no, I don't care if you "need" that x2 or x3 mark. Dexterity it up.

Now, with that said, I'll just give some decks that work. And I mean with a win ratio better than 5/2, not 'can survive in platinum', and outside of the usual suspects.
Longbow Animate Weapon Rush. Chaos Powered Wyrms. Monodeath with lots of Plague and Explosions powered by fire mark. Crusader + Animated Arsenic + Sundial. Overdrive Massive + Graviton.
Not a complete list of the cards, but it gives a general idea of the types of decks that work.

That said, in the arena the cap and SoG nerfs are a big deal, made me barely scrape a win twice, both third wheel wins. (With 1 hp, and 0 cards left in my deck in the first and second match respectively.) Just an example of the 1.29 changes working.

And the math is right, but it definitely doesn't feel like a 60% chance to me, or anybody else it seems. I wouldn't worry about farming them though, just wait a week until everyone in plat is using them in their decks or putting up shard farms or somesuch.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 09, 2011, 12:07:18 am
it would be nice if we could just pay 1000 coin for a new shard from the bazaar.
Then it wouldnt be rare...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 09, 2011, 12:14:42 am
as if miracle, pharoah, squid or any weapon is actually 'rare' beyond the namesake classification.  the only actually 'rare' cards in the game are currently the four new shards.

something can be rare and purchasable, it just costs more.  thats why there is a $4000 pinball machine for sale.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on October 09, 2011, 12:17:11 am
Which is part of the reason why Zanz removed T50. I've yet to see a single new shard as well, whereas some have 5+ of some of them, and I've been farming several hours. It will even out in a few days/weeks/months. I'm in no hurry.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on October 09, 2011, 12:26:50 am
Math or not .. you should at least on the Final spin win w/e it is that matches... so you dont go through all that work and get nothing for it. I agree weapons dont = rare.. i have 12 morning glories, 6 lobotomizers, and othe rrares.. 15 miracles? etc.. only thing i would say is rare is nymphs .. which can only get from oracle so far as ive seen. be nice if relics were worth something.

I think more quests or something would make it more enjoyable.. after a while its just same old thing over and over...also needing CONSECUTIVE wins makes it more un fun. yes 3 plat wins isnt many but 3 in a row is not easy by any means.. id rather fight FGs. bronze takes forever to do whatever it is 6 or 7.. and once in while u get to 5th or 6th win and randomly get shafted by bad draws or start and they happen to run some rush deck like all rest of the "noobs" use.. not that using already proven methods is really "noob" like.. but tends to leave the game very uncreative and repetitively boring. If changed to just winning enough to fill the circles it would at least make things a little better.

Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 09, 2011, 12:30:33 am
i put in an all-pillar arena deck, i suggest everyone else do the same.  in the end everyone will make more money beating on the dumby decks than they would winning 5 coin per win and will get quicker bonus spins.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Essence on October 09, 2011, 12:31:21 am
Are Shards going to be Relics in spins?  If not, I'm just waiting a month until they start showing up regularly in Arena decks and winning them that way.  They're cool and all, but I don't have time to grind like that these days.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: willng3 on October 09, 2011, 12:38:42 am
Are Shards going to be Relics in spins?  If not, I'm just waiting a month until they start showing up regularly in Arena decks and winning them that way.  They're cool and all, but I don't have time to grind like that these days.
They appear as normal in special spins, so I would imagine they appear as normal against decks that have them in Arena as well.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on October 09, 2011, 12:43:48 am
i put in an all-pillar arena deck, i suggest everyone else do the same.  in the end everyone will make more money beating on the dumby decks than they would winning 5 coin per win and will get quicker bonus spins.
that kind of defeats purpose of arena being better than top 50.. i do agree that arena has improved over top50 but it has also led to the obvious imbalances in the game e.g. firestalls being overpowered etc.. which has led to this update giving fire a slight nerf and fixing other cards which I am more or less happy about.
I think instead of having ppl put in dummy decks.. (which earn nothing for them aka selfless act i suppose) that the reward system be changed..

maybe at least 1 win no matter what when it comes to the rare spin...
If you win before all the "spins" per slot are up keep spinning to possibly win a 2nd rare? I know this would be nice seeing how i won a titan and a SOD first spin and i wanted neither of them.  it would give me the chance to get a diff rare.
or just make it so consecutive wins are no longer needed.

Im not saying make things "easier" but at least make them more rewarding.. 2 hours of grinding and all i have to show are an SOD and a titan.. and very little electrum earned.. not a huge reward per time deal. i do understand some of it is luck but still.. 2 hours for 2 useless rares i have plenty of.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Onizuka on October 09, 2011, 01:03:25 am
Grinding silver is very profitable.
That's what I've been doing.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: furballdn on October 09, 2011, 01:09:05 am
Are Shards going to be Relics in spins?  If not, I'm just waiting a month until they start showing up regularly in Arena decks and winning them that way.  They're cool and all, but I don't have time to grind like that these days.
They appear as normal in special spins, so I would imagine they appear as normal against decks that have them in Arena as well.
They do appear as shards in normal spins. Just won a SoG from a regular match against a bronze deck.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Zaealix on October 09, 2011, 01:13:05 am
Part of what makes me ehh about the complaints about farming arena is the rewards to the risk. Gold is worth something like 115-130 per win, and the decks are weaker than a FG, not to mention that you lose less electrum when you lose as well. Granted, it takes a better deck to streak through Arena than it does FGs, but that's more because the FGs are set in stone and easier to analyze. I feel like beating an FG should net you a larger Electrum reward. Now that said, if it would be bad to make FGs more profitable to farm electrumwise, maybe instead you could get a 'special' spin when you beat them after the normal spins. This would balance the difficulty of FGs out with the rewards in Arena.
That said, earlier today I think I EM'ed the 2nd place deck in silver and got like 1280 electrum from it. Though the person who had it up there had neglected the thing and let it go to 1 HP if I remember correctly...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Chapuz on October 09, 2011, 01:26:12 pm
Grinding silver is very profitable.
That's what I've been doing.
Do u think so? It's a 40 E win each game with no EM. FGs are much more profittable!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: poperekov on October 09, 2011, 01:29:30 pm
i got first enthropy's shard ^_^
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Onizuka on October 09, 2011, 04:15:34 pm
Grinding silver is very profitable.
That's what I've been doing.
Do u think so? It's a 40 E win each game with no EM. FGs are much more profittable!
63, and I EM often enough that while its not as profitable as FGs/Higher leagues, its not like I'm grinding AI0.
Still get to upgrade cards off the money and useless rares I get.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: furballdn on October 09, 2011, 04:21:44 pm
I grind silver as well. It's not that great for your win to loss ratio, but it does wonders for your score and cash.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rosutosefi on October 10, 2011, 09:11:27 am
(http://i.imgur.com/YVSsM.jpg)

Cleanliness.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ralouf on October 10, 2011, 09:12:48 am
Grinding plat with the right deck is..... no word to describe it :)
but I won 7000 score in 1h30 just to say :)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: TheManuz on October 10, 2011, 10:06:52 am
Grinding plat with the right deck is..... no word to describe it :)
but I won 7000 score in 1h30 just to say :)
What deck do you use for grinding platinum?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ralouf on October 10, 2011, 10:10:15 am
arsendial with SoS obv
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: TheManuz on October 10, 2011, 10:19:31 am
arsendial with SoS obv
awwww... i still don't have any of the new shards...  :(
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ralouf on October 10, 2011, 10:20:49 am
I started with only 2 SoS and then won the rest in special spin in plat.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: burne on October 10, 2011, 10:33:23 am
this deck change definitely the metagame killing everything which hasn't consistent healing.

I don't know if it will last long. I just enjoy the farm for the moment.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ralouf on October 10, 2011, 10:36:56 am
Yeah me too ^^ as you said it loose hard vs any deck with healing or even a purify.. Even a single miracle can kill you.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 10, 2011, 12:18:29 pm
Dear Zanz,
Please bring back the old SoR/Fate Egg Combo. Deja Vu was obviously broken, but there was nothing wrong on the fate side of things.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: gumbeh on October 10, 2011, 12:20:41 pm
Dear Zanz,
Please bring back the old SoR/Fate Egg Combo. Deja Vu was obviously broken, but there was nothing wrong on the fate side of things.
Thank you.
I agree with this man, and this has nothing to do with his humpably good looks.

Double Fate Egg would be less extreme if it was 2 different creatures, incidentally. There's a big difference between double antlion and double Silurian Dragon.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Malignant on October 10, 2011, 12:21:01 pm
Dear Zanz,
Please bring back the old SoR/Fate Egg Combo. Deja Vu was obviously broken, but there was nothing wrong on the fate side of things.
Thank you.
SoR/Fate Egg still generate 2 creatures...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 10, 2011, 12:37:56 pm
Dear Zanz,
Please bring back the old SoR/Fate Egg Combo. Deja Vu was obviously broken, but there was nothing wrong on the fate side of things.
Thank you.
SoR/Fate Egg still generate 2 creatures...
Since When? I tried it yesterday and only got 1.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Malignant on October 10, 2011, 12:47:28 pm
Dear Zanz,
Please bring back the old SoR/Fate Egg Combo. Deja Vu was obviously broken, but there was nothing wrong on the fate side of things.
Thank you.
SoR/Fate Egg still generate 2 creatures...
Since When? I tried it yesterday and only got 1.
Tested in v1.291 - Unupped Fate Egg and SoReadiness.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 10, 2011, 12:52:19 pm
Dear Zanz,
Please bring back the old SoR/Fate Egg Combo. Deja Vu was obviously broken, but there was nothing wrong on the fate side of things.
Thank you.
SoR/Fate Egg still generate 2 creatures...
Since When? I tried it yesterday and only got 1.
Tested in v1.291 - Unupped Fate Egg and SoReadiness.
Is that a recent change? Cause I tested it yesterday, and it didnt work. Also, Does Deja Vu work again then? Would test myself but have to go to work.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: UTAlan on October 10, 2011, 01:09:39 pm
Dear Zanz,
Please bring back the old SoR/Fate Egg Combo. Deja Vu was obviously broken, but there was nothing wrong on the fate side of things.
Thank you.
SoR/Fate Egg still generate 2 creatures...
Since When? I tried it yesterday and only got 1.
Did you have a Mark of :time?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Malignant on October 10, 2011, 01:16:57 pm
Dear Zanz,
Please bring back the old SoR/Fate Egg Combo. Deja Vu was obviously broken, but there was nothing wrong on the fate side of things.
Thank you.
SoR/Fate Egg still generate 2 creatures...
Since When? I tried it yesterday and only got 1.
Tested in v1.291 - Unupped Fate Egg and SoReadiness.
Is that a recent change? Cause I tested it yesterday, and it didnt work. Also, Does Deja Vu work again then? Would test myself but have to go to work.
Whoops. Meant unupped Fate Egg and upped SoReadiness in Previous Quote.

Dejavu + SoR + Death Mark = 1 copy, like using without SoR.

Fate Egg + SoR + Death Mark = 2 same Creatures.

Dejavu + SoR + Time Mark = 1 copy, like using without SoR.

Fate Egg + SoR + Time Mark = 2 same Creatures.

Dejavu and Fate Egg are unupped. SoR is upped.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rgurgelles1 on October 10, 2011, 01:18:14 pm
the shard of sacrifice is a permanent i think since it last a few turns...isn't is?

i don't like the look of shard of divinity....:(
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on October 10, 2011, 01:37:29 pm
the shard of sacrifice is a permanent i think since it last a few turns...isn't is?

i don't like the look of shard of divinity....:(
Nope, it's a spell. It would be easier to counter as a perm, and possibly more balanced. As is, the only counter is Silence since you'd have to act pro-actively to counter it. There are also some soft counters like Sundial and Shard of Patience. You can also try freezing your own creatures with Squid (or delaying with Auburn Nymph), but the lost offensive power while the opponent can still attack is a pretty terrible deal.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Nepycros on October 10, 2011, 01:44:20 pm
Quanta pool capped?!  :o
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ggabriel2 on October 10, 2011, 02:34:16 pm
Wow. I admit that when I first saw the talk about new shards I figured update would pretty much kill Elements for me--the game involves a surplus of grinding even without a whole slew of new big ticket rares. I'm glad to see that my fears were largely unfounded; most of the new cards are pretty reasonable and on the whole it looks like things are getting more balanced, not less. Still not in love with the idea of new shards, but looks like I'll be playing a while longer.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: badivan1 on October 10, 2011, 05:52:53 pm
Quanta pool capped?!  :o
I'm also curious as to why there is a cap on the quanta pool.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ralouf on October 10, 2011, 06:44:59 pm
To nerf the fire stall
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Chapuz on October 10, 2011, 06:45:26 pm
Quanta pool capped?!  :o
I'm also curious as to why there is a cap on the quanta pool.
Because Zanz hates fire stalld and fire lance sudden killers and there is (or will be soon, idk if it is already) a shard that reduces BY HALF the max ammount of quanta the oponent can have.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on October 10, 2011, 07:11:42 pm
The quanta cap does nothing to firestall, but it does wreck the unupped firebolt killer used against some FGs by newer players.  Mostly it's to facilitate upcoming cards that will modify the quanta pool in such a way that will be meaningful, such as the aether shard of conscience that is under development.  (not yet in game Chapuz)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on October 10, 2011, 07:27:52 pm
The quanta cap is kind of a mixed good/bad for me. yes it minimizes insta kill situations kind of. if Someone has 75 :fire they play a couple of lances it's still game over.
75: fire + 4 lances = 96 damage..+ Fahrenheit + 20 more damage. Stone skin was changed to X with no limit due to 75 being its limit already. It prevents people from playing fractal + lots of high cost dragons to some extent.. you can only play so many now instead of saving up well beyond 75 to play a field full in one turn.
It limits the creativity that could be used with having 75+ of a quanta type which isnt all that horrible, but makes cards like soul catcher, solar shield, rustler etc that produce extra quanta for you less likely to be used i think due to pillars can give you enough to 75 without the extra help. my rainbow deck gets 75 of all 12 elements in any middle range length of a game no problem. This new shard coming out though im not so sure its a good idea. :aether shard + blackhole or pestal decks = new quanta ever... plus if you do manage to get some quanta say via supernova.. if pests done eat it all your limited to how much you can try to save up.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Nepycros on October 10, 2011, 07:58:51 pm
Looks like it's just being a major buff to Sanctuary, really. :/
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on October 10, 2011, 08:15:56 pm
that too, anything quanta related sanctuary gets buff, plus its now better than SOG unless u have a :life mark.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: badivan1 on October 10, 2011, 11:01:31 pm
Too bad my unupped monoDark stall got somewhat nerfed.  I used to farm the now obsolete Top50 with it.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 10, 2011, 11:09:15 pm
The Quanta Pool Cap is there to open up new card possibilities. The game is slowly getting more and more advanced, which allows the developer to have more options.

As Far as Black Hole+the new shard goes,
Remember, you only have 6 black holes. You can only stall for so long. Amber nymphs on the other hand will be even more powerful.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Vineroz on October 10, 2011, 11:13:03 pm
As Far as Black Hole+the new shard goes,
Remember, you only have 6 black holes. You can only stall for so long. Amber nymphs on the other hand will be even more powerful.
Arena. (as I mentioned in the shard thread)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 11, 2011, 12:07:35 am
As Far as Black Hole+the new shard goes,
Remember, you only have 6 black holes. You can only stall for so long. Amber nymphs on the other hand will be even more powerful.
Arena. (as I mentioned in the shard thread)
Which should not be considered when it comes to determining a cards balance.

Arena, Pvp Events (including war), False Gods, or ANY type of AI should not be considered when balancing cards. Only pvp 1/2 should be considered.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on October 11, 2011, 12:17:04 am
why would pvp1/2 only be considered? i NEVER play either one.. mainly because the last time i tried it glitched out ever single match .. i couldnt be in any tournies or lgs due to it.. and im wondering when it comes to it in WOE if it will do the same. so as far as balancing yes arena should be considered since 12 blackholes 12 shards and the usual pestal deck would be so over quanta denial you couldnt play anything ever.. consistently.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 11, 2011, 12:27:18 am
why would pvp1/2 only be considered? i NEVER play either one.. mainly because the last time i tried it glitched out ever single match .. i couldnt be in any tournies or lgs due to it.. and im wondering when it comes to it in WOE if it will do the same. so as far as balancing yes arena should be considered since 12 blackholes 12 shards and the usual pestal deck would be so over quanta denial you couldnt play anything ever.. consistently.
What Makes A Card Overpowered

Any or all of the following could mean a card is op:
1) High power level in relation to simliar cards.
2) Cost not balanced with effect.
3) Provides easily exploited card advantage.
And just because there is a way to counter a card does not mean it is fair and balanced.


Important Quote From Gl1tch That Should Be Read Before Posting In This Section

When you look at balancing cards, you cannot look at decks, or AI, or AI level.  You can only look at cards.  All else can follow once it's balanced.
AI should NEVER be a consideration when it comes to balance. Arena is SUPPOSE to be unfair, just like false Gods are suppose to be unfair. If you want to tlak about balancing a card, talk about pvp, not pve. If anything Zanz can nerf the AI for certain card combos as he has done in the past with silence.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on October 11, 2011, 12:30:07 am
and adding a card to the game that could be over exploited in arena is not something to think about?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Bloodshadow on October 11, 2011, 12:44:25 am
I've been told to ask this question here.

@Zanz: Is the Shard of Void inspired by my Voidwalker | Voidstalker (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21456.0.html)?

If yes, someone please put it in the Reliquary. If not, ignore this post.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 11, 2011, 12:47:00 am
and adding a card to the game that could be over exploited in arena is not something to think about?
The problem is that The new shard isnt what ends up being the problem card. The problem card ends up being Black Hole.

You dont need a thousand copies of the shard. all you need is a ton of copies of black hole. Sure the shard opens up this problem, but the only reason the shard is focused on is because it is coming second. If The Shard already existed and black hole was being introduced, people would be complaining about how OP black hole is going to be.

And no, it being exploitable in the arena isnt something to think about. If the card is already balanced, then it wont end up being a problem in the arena.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 11, 2011, 12:50:41 am
@Zanz: Is the Shard of Void inspired by my Voidwalker | Voidstalker (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21456.0.html)?

If yes, someone please put it in the Reliquary. If not, ignore this post.
what he said, but substitute his card for my shard of restraint (#1) haha
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,28937.0.html
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Bhlewos on October 11, 2011, 12:58:20 am
Slightly unrelated, but is there a way to track how the stats of Elements cards changes over time? Like what's going on here (http://elementsthegame.com/liststats.php), but  with a history of previous stats, maybe fixed to show their usage relative to each other. I'm particularly interested in seeing the usage of SoG seeing as it's 2nd in the upped list right now, but general consensus seems to be that it's been neutered, for lack of a better word.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rutarete on October 11, 2011, 01:11:29 am
Slightly unrelated, but is there a way to track how the stats of Elements cards changes over time? Like what's going on here (http://elementsthegame.com/liststats.php), but  with a history of previous stats, maybe fixed to show their usage relative to each other. I'm particularly interested in seeing the usage of SoG seeing as it's 2nd in the upped list right now, but general consensus seems to be that it's been neutered, for lack of a better word.
http://elementscommunity.org/wiki/resources/patch-notes/
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ddevans96 on October 11, 2011, 01:16:09 am
Slightly unrelated, but is there a way to track how the stats of Elements cards changes over time? Like what's going on here (http://elementsthegame.com/liststats.php), but  with a history of previous stats, maybe fixed to show their usage relative to each other. I'm particularly interested in seeing the usage of SoG seeing as it's 2nd in the upped list right now, but general consensus seems to be that it's been neutered, for lack of a better word.
http://elementscommunity.org/wiki/resources/patch-notes/
That isn't what he means.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Sevs on October 11, 2011, 01:26:48 am
Slightly unrelated, but is there a way to track how the stats of Elements cards changes over time? Like what's going on here (http://elementsthegame.com/liststats.php), but  with a history of previous stats, maybe fixed to show their usage relative to each other. I'm particularly interested in seeing the usage of SoG seeing as it's 2nd in the upped list right now, but general consensus seems to be that it's been neutered, for lack of a better word.
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4093.0
Since these are images I figure they are frozen in time from the time of posting. since there weren't that many major changes, I think the new stats can be compared.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on October 11, 2011, 03:57:42 am
As Far as Black Hole+the new shard goes,
Remember, you only have 6 black holes. You can only stall for so long. Amber nymphs on the other hand will be even more powerful.
Arena. (as I mentioned in the shard thread)
Which should not be considered when it comes to determining a cards balance.

Arena, Pvp Events (including war), False Gods, or ANY type of AI should not be considered when balancing cards. Only pvp 1/2 should be considered.
how about the consideration that if PVE becomes broken enough, no one will be able to earn the cards they need to pvp?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on October 11, 2011, 04:09:32 am
As Far as Black Hole+the new shard goes,
Remember, you only have 6 black holes. You can only stall for so long. Amber nymphs on the other hand will be even more powerful.
Arena. (as I mentioned in the shard thread)
Which should not be considered when it comes to determining a cards balance.

Arena, Pvp Events (including war), False Gods, or ANY type of AI should not be considered when balancing cards. Only pvp 1/2 should be considered.
how about the consideration that if PVE becomes broken enough, no one will be able to earn the cards they need to pvp?
For normal (non arena) AI, change the deck until balance is restored. The balance of PvE of this type is ensured through predetermined decks.

Arena AI is more accurately termed asynchronous PvP. PvP 1, PvP 2, PvP Duel and PvP Arena are the 4 areas whose balance relies on the card effects because the players have the ability to make their own deck.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rgurgelles1 on October 11, 2011, 04:33:02 am
the shard of sacrifice is a permanent i think since it last a few turns...isn't is?

i don't like the look of shard of divinity....:(
Nope, it's a spell. It would be easier to counter as a perm, and possibly more balanced. As is, the only counter is Silence since you'd have to act pro-actively to counter it. There are also some soft counters like Sundial and Shard of Patience. You can also try freezing your own creatures with Squid (or delaying with Auburn Nymph), but the lost offensive power while the opponent can still attack is a pretty terrible deal.
oh i see, i had been confused by the shard beside it in the pics....since it both last 2 turns
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Anthraxx on October 11, 2011, 07:33:42 am
Is it too early to whine about terrible bonus spins? 10hrs of farming platinum, 50+ spins and I've never seen a single new shard in the spin (not even talking about winning it...). Should I clear some browser cache? Version displayed seems to be correct - 1.291.

Erm, bad luck? =/
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: pikachufan2164 on October 11, 2011, 07:44:27 am
Is it too early to whine about terrible bonus spins? 10hrs of farming platinum, 50+ spins and I've never seen a single new shard in the spin (not even talking about winning it...). Should I clear some browser cache? Version displayed seems to be correct - 1.291.

Erm, bad luck? =/
Clear your browser cache; the paranoid side of me thinks that the game doesn't load the new shards in until you clear it out. I went through a good dozen bonus spins without seeing any new shards. When I cleared my cache, I finally started to see them in the bonus spins.

Assuming that the chances of each rare card being called up for the bonus spin is equal (and 4 different rares are called up each time), there's a nearly 60% chance of seeing one with each bonus spin.

Number of rares in the game = 12 (weapons) + 3 (Squid, Pharaoh, Miracle) + 3 (old shards) + 4 (new shards) = 22
Cards called up in bonus spins = 4

I have made tests with the (unupped) rare spinner. It has 4 cards.
Assuming that each rare is equally likely to be called up for the rare spin:

P (no new shards called up) = 18/22 * 17/21 * 16/20 * 15/19 = 0.418
P (at least one new shard called up) = 0.582

That's right. Almost 60% chance of seeing a new shard :\
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on October 11, 2011, 07:49:34 am
There were 18 rares before 1.29 (12 weapons + 3 shards + pharaoh, squid, miracle) and there are 4 new ones, for a total of 22 rares.  The rare reel contains 4 rares at random.  The odds of seeing zero new shards in the rare spin is therefore: (if there is an equal chance of all rares)

18/22 * 17/21 * 16/20 * 15/19 = 41.8%

Thus, there should be a 58.2% chance of seeing a new shard (or more than one) in a rare spin.  I've won 10 new shards so far, but I have had dozens of rare spins, and most of them I have not seen a new shard.  I've seen serendipity maybe twice and never won it; the rest I have 2-4 of each.

The ones where I have seen a new shard but not won it is probably less than the 10 times I've won one.  Some of the new shards could have been 'hidden' by getting them in the rare spins but not seeing them, due to getting only the other three on visible reels, or winning a rare without spinning any reels, which will happen 1/16 of the time.  (1/4 chance for 2nd one to match first, and 1/4 chance for 3rd to match those; it might seem like 1/64 but it is not)

I strongly suspect that there is not an equal chance of seeing all rares.  The old shards I don't see very often either, but I don't really care.  I think the shards are probably less likely than other rares.  It would be an interesting thing to keep track of and see whether it's true...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Anthraxx on October 11, 2011, 08:08:09 am
Yup, it worked. Saw SoS on the 1st spin, no luck though... Thanks.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 11, 2011, 02:21:41 pm
As long as it shows v 1.291 shouldnt you have the shards available?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 11, 2011, 02:27:56 pm
i have yet to see one over about ~30 or so bonus spins.  i cleared my cache this morning, maybe that will help.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 11, 2011, 02:28:43 pm
i have yet to see one over about ~30 or so bonus spins.  i cleared my cache this morning, maybe that will help.
beforehand did your game say 1.29?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on October 11, 2011, 02:33:50 pm
While I wish it was that easy, it's not. The second 1.291 came out, I cleared my cache and reloaded. 1.291 in the corner, check. I go to Bronze and start grinding. I play for several hours every day and lose a grand total of one game a day. With that, I've had dozens upon dozens of bonus spins every day, and I've seen -one- new Shard in three days of farming. I didn't win it either.

Meanwhile, some people already have 6 of this and 5 of that. This is why I never used to play RNG-based games x)
But I'm still not in a hurry.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 11, 2011, 02:42:35 pm
While I wish it was that easy, it's not. The second 1.291 came out, I cleared my cache and reloaded. 1.291 in the corner, check. I go to Bronze and start grinding. I play for several hours every day and lose a grand total of one game a day. With that, I've had dozens upon dozens of bonus spins every day, and I've seen -one- new Shard in three days of farming. I didn't win it either.

Meanwhile, some people already have 6 of this and 5 of that. This is why I never used to play RNG-based games x)
But I'm still not in a hurry.
You've seen 1 though. The point im trying to discover is if once its 1.291 the shards are guaranteed to have a chance to show up or not. Pre 1.291 they had a chance because the shards were introduced then, but once you are in 1.291 you should have the ability to get them regardless (even if you may be extremely unlucky)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on October 11, 2011, 02:48:20 pm
I was responding to the topic as a whole, not just you, but that was my point, yes. It took two days for the first to appear with no changes, which means bad luck can really go this far in this case. With the easy part, I was referring to cache playing the entire role. I cleared it for that very reason: it tends to affect these things in online games.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 11, 2011, 03:01:10 pm
i have yet to see one over about ~30 or so bonus spins.  i cleared my cache this morning, maybe that will help.
beforehand did your game say 1.29?
yep, first thing i checked.  i have also reloaded the webpage several times.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Bootsza on October 11, 2011, 03:50:30 pm
I have been grinding Bronze and Silver like mad for a couple of days and have still not even seen the new shards at all.

I have cleared my cache, tried different browsers and 3 different machines.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on October 11, 2011, 04:12:46 pm
Just won my first. SoSa. There is hope :>
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Bootsza on October 11, 2011, 04:18:34 pm
Heh, thanks ;-)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Onizuka on October 11, 2011, 04:48:53 pm
Yeah, took me awhile to find my first too.
After that they came more easily, now I'm 1/4th of the way done
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rickerd on October 11, 2011, 06:59:06 pm
I'm farming brons now and i've got very few luck with my spec spins:
- 1 Shard of Sacrivice
- 2 SoS
- 3 SoR
- 2 SoD
- 6 SoG
most of the times I get a spin there are only weapons  :(
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Bhlewos on October 11, 2011, 08:38:50 pm
That awkward moment when you finally see your first new shard and the rare spin reel insists on giving you a Lobo.

(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/BhlewosAQW/ElementsTheGame/SoSeFUUUUU.png)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Essence on October 11, 2011, 10:53:32 pm
I won a Shard of Serendipity from a bonus spin on Gold about 24 hours ago. I kept playing, left my computer on overnight, and finally went to the Bazaar screen this morning...no SoSe. :(
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Chapuz on October 11, 2011, 11:06:43 pm
I won a Shard of Serendipity from a bonus spin on Gold about 24 hours ago. I kept playing, left my computer on overnight, and finally went to the Bazaar screen this morning...no SoSe. :(
did you sell it accidentally?  :o
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Essence on October 11, 2011, 11:24:41 pm
Nope.  I went to the Bazaar and every number in the Other section was a 6. Nothing new, nothing to sell.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rember on October 11, 2011, 11:28:12 pm
The Arena Screen doesn't save your progress, you have to go back to the main game menu. Maybe the long wait period without saving progress or the oracle rolling over screwed something up? I go back to the menu and get the progress saved to pop up a few times every time I win a new shard.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on October 11, 2011, 11:31:27 pm
The Arena Screen doesn't save your progress, you have to go back to the main game menu. Maybe the long wait period without saving progress or the oracle rolling over screwed something up? I go back to the menu and get the progress saved to pop up a few times every time I win a new shard.
the arena main page doesnt save.  starting a new arena match should though.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rember on October 11, 2011, 11:41:36 pm
A wizard did it.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 12, 2011, 12:53:48 am
im seriously thinking about resetting my account just to stop me from continuing to try to get shards from the arena.  no hope here.  either im bugged or the %s of shards showing up are infinitesimal or i am an outlier of unluckiness, or some combination of the above.  either way, i am not enjoying this grind at all. at least with  :electrum grinding you could see some progress over time, but with this it's a black box slot machine.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Chapuz on October 12, 2011, 01:15:20 am
im seriously thinking about resetting my account just to stop me from continuing to try to get shards from the arena.  no hope here.  either im bugged or the %s of shards showing up are infinitesimal or i am an outlier of unluckiness, or some combination of the above.  either way, i am not enjoying this grind at all. at least with  :electrum grinding you could see some progress over time, but with this it's a black box slot machine.
I am laughing at how naive you all are. Zanzarino put some names in a list so that no one of you can get the new Shards (you have like a 0.005%). And when you do it, they are deleted. Ask Essence.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: zanzarino on October 12, 2011, 01:59:40 am
im seriously thinking about resetting my account just to stop me from continuing to try to get shards from the arena.  no hope here.  either im bugged or the %s of shards showing up are infinitesimal or i am an outlier of unluckiness, or some combination of the above.  either way, i am not enjoying this grind at all. at least with  :electrum grinding you could see some progress over time, but with this it's a black box slot machine.
Clear your internet cache or try the game in a different browser.
The file that contains that information is downloaded from the server as a separate file; it has nothing to do with your client version.
Your browser might be stuck on the old version of that file.
Refreshing does not help in this case.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: furballdn on October 12, 2011, 02:01:17 am
im seriously thinking about resetting my account just to stop me from continuing to try to get shards from the arena.  no hope here.  either im bugged or the %s of shards showing up are infinitesimal or i am an outlier of unluckiness, or some combination of the above.  either way, i am not enjoying this grind at all. at least with  :electrum grinding you could see some progress over time, but with this it's a black box slot machine.
Wait until the new shards become more prevalent so winning them will be easier :>
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Korugar on October 12, 2011, 02:09:45 am
I won a Shard of Serendipity from a bonus spin on Gold about 24 hours ago. I kept playing, left my computer on overnight, and finally went to the Bazaar screen this morning...no SoSe. :(
This is not an isolated incident, you found a bug, or something. I've been grinding silver league, and apparently something has started using shards. Anyway, I got an awesome three spins afterward in which I won a Vampire Stiletto and Shard of Void. Since I have the other rares, I went to sell the Stiletto, and check out my new shard. The Stiletto was there, but the Shard wasn't.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Jocko on October 12, 2011, 02:18:38 am
Muaahahahaha! I haz all your shardz nao!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 12, 2011, 02:20:58 am
Clear your internet cache or try the game in a different browser.
The file that contains that information is downloaded from the server as a separate file; it has nothing to do with your client version.
Your browser might be stuck on the old version of that file.
Refreshing does not help in this case.
So 1.291 showing means nothing. Thank you for clearing that up. *goes to wipe google chrome (the better browser)*
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: artimies7 on October 12, 2011, 02:33:29 am
*snipZanzwuzhearsnip*google chrome (the better browser)*
No. I object. Seamonkey. It has an editor. Pwnd.

Ontopic: I haven't seen this problem yet. Although I haven't gotten a shard yet, but whadda yah gonna do, amirite?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: parasite99 on October 12, 2011, 03:15:32 am
First of all thank you Zanzarino for letting us know :)

I am so angry though for farming so long while I had 1.291 (thought everything was fine) and didn't see any shards for 2 days.
I don't get it...I cleared my cache and what people suggested and nothing was fixed as I found after some hours.
Sorry for my tone but I am soo angry for farming 2 days and there was no way to find out except spinning every now and then.....

(p.s. fixed after some restarts and clearing cache some times)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on October 12, 2011, 04:36:52 am
If you've cleared your cache and haven't seen any in the special spins, either you're unlucky, or you really didn't clear your cache.  Go to the trainer, if you see no shards in the bazaar, clear your cache.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: parasite99 on October 12, 2011, 04:46:50 am
If you've cleared your cache and haven't seen any in the special spins, either you're unlucky, or you really didn't clear your cache.  Go to the trainer, if you see no shards in the bazaar, clear your cache.
I see the shards in trainer, does that mean I am unlucky?
Haven't seen a shard for 13-15 spins though :(
Does that mean I will see them when my luck will change?
I'm just asking cause I just saw a shard after I changed browser.
(and I know how to clear the browser's cache xD)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 12, 2011, 05:08:31 am
If you've cleared your cache and haven't seen any in the special spins, either you're unlucky, or you really didn't clear your cache.  Go to the trainer, if you see no shards in the bazaar, clear your cache.
I see the shards in trainer, does that mean I am unlucky?
Haven't seen a shard for 13-15 spins though :(
Does that mean I will see them when my luck will change?
I'm just asking cause I just saw a shard after I changed browser.
(and I know how to clear the browser's cache xD)
Youre just unlucky then. If you cleared your cache, then you would be able to find them.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Bhlewos on October 12, 2011, 05:55:16 am
Got SoV and SoP today, right after I cleared my cache. I third bucky and BP, it's probably just bad luck on your part. Hang in there, you'll get rewarded for your efforts eventually. =]
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: parasite99 on October 12, 2011, 06:54:28 am
Thank you all for your responses!
Funny thing is after I read BP's and bucky's responses I went back to my original browser and tried again. I had 6 spins and no sight yet. I must be really unlucky....or Mozilla sux.
I hate farming especially when I don't know if I have a chance to get what I'm looking for :(
Thanks again guys for the support xD

(Time to sleep, I'll try probably later...)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: vega7 on October 12, 2011, 08:50:59 am
Hi guys, I'm playing Elements on Kongregate and the version is 1.29, does that mean I won't see any new shards if I play there? Thanks :)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rember on October 12, 2011, 12:50:14 pm
Kong version is fine, but it doesn't have the 1 at the end for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Anthraxx on October 12, 2011, 03:08:36 pm
/whine mode on

100 ish spins, no shards won (I see plenty in th spins but...)

Just won my 1st - SoV - in the 3 spin after the won game in plat...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: MartyrX on October 12, 2011, 03:12:00 pm
I love the new  :earth colors
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 12, 2011, 10:38:51 pm
thanks, fixed it.  earlier i simply cleared the cache and reloaded the page, but that didnt seem to work, so i cleared cache, closed the browser,  reloaded the webpage, cleared the cache again, reloaded the page again, after about 4 spins i won shard of patience... irony?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Chapuz on October 12, 2011, 10:44:56 pm
thanks, fixed it.  earlier i simply cleared the cache and reloaded the page, but that didnt seem to work, so i cleared cache, closed the browser,  reloaded the webpage, cleared the cache again, reloaded the page again, after about 4 spins i won shard of patience... irony?
Lol, just to ask, what deck do you use Moomoose?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 12, 2011, 10:48:03 pm
some combination of arena destroyer and (*modified) jmz classic, arena destroyer didnt have enough PC, i would occasionally lose to mono-aether, which was annoying, so i added in the crusader/pulvy.
by moomoose
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4vl 4vl 55v 5oo 5oo 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 713 713 74f 74f 77f 77g 77g 7dm 7dq 7gm 7k5 7q5 7tf 80g 8pj

Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Chapuz on October 12, 2011, 11:42:10 pm
some combination of arena destroyer and (*modified) jmz classic, arena destroyer didnt have enough PC, i would occasionally lose to mono-aether, which was annoying, so i added in the crusader/pulvy.
by Chapuz
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4vl 4vl 55v 5oo 5oo 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 713 713 74f 74f 77f 77g 77g 7dm 7dq 7gm 7k5 7q5 7tf 80g 8pj

Any reason for the unupped cards?  :o
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: furballdn on October 13, 2011, 12:06:11 am
some combination of arena destroyer and (*modified) jmz classic, arena destroyer didnt have enough PC, i would occasionally lose to mono-aether, which was annoying, so i added in the crusader/pulvy.
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4vl 4vl 55v 5oo 5oo 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 713 713 74f 74f 77f 77g 77g 7dm 7dq 7gm 7k5 7q5 7tf 80g 8pj

Any reason for the unupped cards?  :o
My guess is he doesn't have them. I use a similar variant of what he uses, just different upgraded cards.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 13, 2011, 12:20:20 am
the unupped cards arent much better when upped, and im too cheap to pay for them for just a grinding deck
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Essence on October 13, 2011, 12:53:15 am
That's a significant enough mod that it deserves it's own thread.  Looks kinda badass, actually. :)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: furballdn on October 13, 2011, 01:22:53 am
That's a significant enough mod that it deserves it's own thread.  Looks kinda badass, actually. :)
Not really. All it did was change the archangel for a crusader, have a gargoyle instead of steals, phase recluse for the twin universe, the abyss crawler for the ulitharid, and a pulverizer for a forest spectre....Actually that is quite a big change. But then again, in a 30 card SNbow deck, changing one or two cards can change it completely.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Essence on October 13, 2011, 02:17:34 am
Are we looking at the same deck?  The original didn't have Wings or Discord either. :)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: furballdn on October 13, 2011, 02:23:34 am
Are we looking at the same deck?  The original didn't have Wings or Discord either. :)
Uh...what deck were you referring to? I was referring to tha gold league killer (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29406.0)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: mildlyfrightenedboy on October 13, 2011, 03:19:12 am
The new Entropy background looks so nice...
Entropy is my favorite element, even though I haven't used it in a deck in over three months.  I have been constantly improving my RoL/Hope for a while instead, but still experimenting with random Entropy deck ideas in the trainer.

Question: Was the original Entropy background just a recolor of the Other one? (or vice-versa)

Follow-up Question: Is the trainer ever going to get updated?  It still has T50 and FG's grouped in with quests.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Toxx on October 13, 2011, 06:48:04 am
Does anyone else find it odd why a flying creature should die by flooding ?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on October 13, 2011, 06:57:16 am
It most certainly is odd that airborne creatures can drown :p  I try to think of it as something more like a storm at sea, though, rather than simply just drowning.  If flooding didn't work on airborne creatures, it would be an even weaker card than it already is.  Definitely odd though!  ;)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ralouf on October 13, 2011, 07:01:39 am
Yep that's rather weird but if we nerf the worste card in the game.. Flooding is already bad enough.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on October 13, 2011, 04:51:51 pm
they have no where to land, so they tire out and eventually can fly no longer so they plunge into the water struggling to swim but are already so tired from constant flying so they DIE!!!!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Jenkar on October 13, 2011, 07:22:45 pm
they have no where to land, so they tire out and eventually can fly no longer so they plunge into the water struggling to swim but are already so tired from constant flying so they DIE!!!!
Only :water creatures swim. Even frogs don't know how :P
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on October 13, 2011, 07:55:10 pm
they have no where to land, so they tire out and eventually can fly no longer so they plunge into the water struggling to swim but are already so tired from constant flying so they DIE!!!!
Only :water creatures swim. Even frogs don't know how :P
its magic  :water elemental water
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: furballdn on October 14, 2011, 01:04:44 am
It most certainly is odd that airborne creatures can drown :p  I try to think of it as something more like a storm at sea, though, rather than simply just drowning.  If flooding didn't work on airborne creatures, it would be an even weaker card than it already is.  Definitely odd though!  ;)
The explanation is that the flooding covers the entire planet many, many times over. So it covers everything. And outer space. And all the creatures that aren't :water are made of sodium. So they explode.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 14, 2011, 01:10:47 am
"The explanation is that the flooding covers the entire planet many, many times over.  So it covers everything. And outer space."
except for five 1ft squares

"And all the creatures that aren't :water are made of sodium. So they explode."
contain sodium, sure.  table salt is sodium chloride, put some of that in the toilet and see if it goes boom.

i know that you were being facetious
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Chapuz on October 14, 2011, 01:13:26 am
"And all the creatures that aren't :water are made of sodium. So they explode."
contain sodium, sure.  table salt is sodium chloride, put some of that in the toilet and see if it goes boom.

i know that you were being facetious
I just did it, it was like a barrel in Boxhead games  :-\

Sodium as a metal explodes in water, not substances made with it.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RRQJ on October 14, 2011, 04:08:00 am
photons are made of sodium. hmmm....
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: mildlyfrightenedboy on October 14, 2011, 04:16:11 am
"The explanation is that the flooding covers the entire planet many, many times over.  So it covers everything. And outer space."
except for five 1ft squares

"And all the creatures that aren't :water are made of sodium. So they explode."
contain sodium, sure.  table salt is sodium chloride, put some of that in the toilet and see if it goes boom.
It's basic science that a compound rarely has the same properties as the components.  You are claiming that sodium can't explode in water (which it does) because table salt (sodium chloride) doesn't.  However, chlorine (the other component of sodium chloride) is a toxic green gas.  Table salt is neither green nor toxic.
Let's use the other compound mentioned (water) as an example too.  Water is made of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.  Hydrogen and oxygen are both gases at room temperature.  Hydrogen is extremely reactive.  Water is a liquid at room temperature and stable.

Conclusion:
Sodium =/= Salt
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 14, 2011, 04:51:30 am
Actually its because all the cards are made up of electrical signals, and the  :water sign isnt really any element. It just lets us know which signals are waterproof and which arent.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Troh on October 14, 2011, 01:31:29 pm
where can we farm shards now?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Jenkar on October 14, 2011, 01:32:27 pm
where can we farm shards now?
Arena.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Troh on October 14, 2011, 01:33:14 pm
where can we farm shards now?
Arena.
no AI?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rember on October 14, 2011, 01:33:45 pm
where can we farm shards now?
Arena.
no AI?
Arena is AI.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 14, 2011, 03:44:32 pm
in the SoC thread, it was brought up that the SoC shard isn't very usable in aether focused decks, and looking around at the shards thus far, they all seem to be less useable than pre-nerf SoG, i have to believe this is intentional.
SoC: useable in denial decks, non-aether focused
SoS: situational use in many decks, limited health/damage to be inflicted window
SoSe: useable in rainbow decks, not reliable means of doing anything, but adds flavor in a fate-egg kinda way
SoR: the :time bonus is new, but given the current assortment of time creatures with abilities, is more or less the same as before
SoD: not very sexy, not much changed- minor nerf
SoG: nerfed, less appealing
SoP: situational use, the delayed turn hurts its use in scorpion decks, functions best when using multiple shards in one turn to recoup the damage lost
SoV: while interesting, it is perhaps the most restricted situational shard of all- a deck really has to be tailored to its use otherwise it is easy to ignore it altogether.

so it seems to me that shards are along the lines of nymphs in terms of they look cool and interesting, but they are often less practical/effective than the widely available cards.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on October 14, 2011, 04:51:01 pm
in the SoC thread, it was brought up that the SoC shard isn't very usable in aether focused decks
most aether cards arent particularly useable in aether focused decks.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 14, 2011, 05:25:16 pm
i wouldnt agree with that
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: doublecross on October 14, 2011, 06:59:55 pm
I'm really not sure about the quanta cap. 75 certainly is better than 50, but I really don't feel like one is necessary.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on October 14, 2011, 07:17:50 pm
most aether cards arent particularly useable in aether focused decks.
To a point, I actually agree with this.  Aether has 5 creatures, and 2 of them are immortal, which makes quintessence, fractal, and turquoise nymph weaker in monoaether.  (though obviously fractal spiders/ball lightning and things like that are still possible)  Mindgate also suffers somewhat in monoaether, though you can get pillars, obviously.  Other than quintessence, though, which I've never used in monoaether, I think all aether cards have a place in at least some monoaether decks.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on October 14, 2011, 07:21:15 pm
most aether cards arent particularly useable in aether focused decks.
To a point, I actually agree with this.  Aether has 5 creatures, and 2 of them are immortal, which makes quintessence, fractal, and turquoise nymph weaker in monoaether. 
and one of them has 0 hp and you wouldnt want to use quint or the nymph on it either (in mono aether).  and fractal drains your quanta so you couldnt cast spiders that turn.  basically, an aether card being hard to use in monoaether is fully in the spirit of aether.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Calindu on October 14, 2011, 07:23:45 pm
most aether cards arent particularly useable in aether focused decks.
To a point, I actually agree with this.  Aether has 5 creatures, and 2 of them are immortal, which makes quintessence, fractal, and turquoise nymph weaker in monoaether.  (though obviously fractal spiders/ball lightning and things like that are still possible)  Mindgate also suffers somewhat in monoaether, though you can get pillars, obviously.  Other than quintessence, though, which I've never used in monoaether, I think all aether cards have a place in at least some monoaether decks.
About turquoise nymph, It's a good card in a mono aether, it rushes well and can lonely win matches(Higurashi trials deck), and you can use quantum towers with mindgates.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on October 14, 2011, 07:37:44 pm
keep in mind i said focus, not mono.  duo, and possibly even trio (should there come a day when trios are practical), would be applicable.
the aether creatures all work well in mono and duo aether decks, aether nymph requires considerable aether investment to put into play and then use the skill.
mind gate does work best in a rainbow, but can work in an aether focused deck with alternate quanta production to pay for the cards it makes
quint indeed works best on creatures from other elements,

as a whole, aether cards stand well together.  and i believe that the SoC will not mesh with other aether cards
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rgurgelles1 on October 14, 2011, 08:20:34 pm
does the shard of readiness make Deja Vu use its effect twice too?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rgurgelles1 on October 14, 2011, 08:36:27 pm
I'm really not sure about the quanta cap. 75 certainly is better than 50, but I really don't feel like one is necessary.
i'm agree with that...because there are cards hoping for more quantas like fire bolt and drain life...more quanta, the better....
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on October 14, 2011, 08:49:21 pm
does the shard of readiness make Deja Vu use its effect twice too?
It did the first few days it was in, but it doesn't anymore.  It made an absolutely devastating OP deck until that change.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: doublecross on October 14, 2011, 09:07:16 pm
Still lets you clone the spawn of fate eggs though.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on October 14, 2011, 09:10:34 pm
Still lets you clone the spawn of fate eggs though.
This is true.  When you do that, you always get the same hatched creature twice, or at least I have in every case.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: stripe1000 on October 15, 2011, 11:29:07 pm
I remember the 1st deck I ever upgraded was fire bolt/dim shield as a FG farmer deck.  Unfortunately that deck just died due to the Quata cap as it required building to 118 fire.  I will miss that deck, even if it was never that powerful.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 16, 2011, 12:05:06 am
113 fire, and it wont die if you use the rare fire weapon.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: forrestugly on October 17, 2011, 09:05:01 pm
i kinda dont get the shard of readiness now, the thing with the "can use skill twice this turn" is new, isnt it?
just tried it on a lava golem, and he couldnt grow at all that turn
is this a bug or is it meant to not work with growth skill?

btw: when im already posting something: can someone explain me while i cant search the forum? :(
its says "You are not allowed to search for posts in this forum."
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ralouf on October 17, 2011, 09:09:15 pm
Search doesn't work currently.

You can use ability twice when you play it on a time creature, lava golem is a fire creature. that can't work
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: forrestugly on October 17, 2011, 09:20:03 pm
ahhh thanks!
my brain kinda didnt see the little time quanta picture there xD
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rgurgelles1 on October 18, 2011, 05:40:13 pm
does the shard of readiness make Deja Vu use its effect twice too?
It did the first few days it was in, but it doesn't anymore.  It made an absolutely devastating OP deck until that change.
awww...i hope i figure it out early...so i had tried it before they undo it...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on October 19, 2011, 09:18:30 am
Could the AI be set to double check/loop through playable skills in play.  So far it's the creature in the 1st slot only that I've noticed this for.  AI played a mitosis on a devonion dragon, then an SoR, but did not use the skill.  Later in the game, in the 2nd creature slot, on the same turn, same set up, the AI did use mitosis. 

This happens for a couple scenarios, where the AI can use a skill or card from hand, but doesn't because it couldn't the first time through, but a double check is needed.

-edit-
and then of course i play against my arena deck again to test it and it plays the mitosis/sor then actually uses the skill.

-and another game, AI only used the skill once : /
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: vidurkhanna on October 22, 2011, 09:27:00 am
i liked everything about the new patch!!

especially the new shards!! :D

would have loved it if a few new creatures were added too!! :D
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Chapuz on October 22, 2011, 01:52:40 pm
Does sanctuary save you from silence?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on October 22, 2011, 02:04:00 pm
Yes, it always has.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: doublecross on October 26, 2011, 05:51:38 am
As of yesterday, when you put a momentum on a fate egg, then used SoR, only one of the two resulting creatures would have momentum. Is this the desired functionality?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Orichalcum on October 28, 2011, 04:33:25 pm
hmm... when Oty eats something with a poison counter, he gains a single counter.
Is this new or has it been implemented since the 1.29 release?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: TheManuz on October 28, 2011, 05:11:38 pm
hmm... when Oty eats something with a poison counter, he gains a single counter.
Is this new or has it been implemented since the 1.29 release?
It's not depending on the poison counter. It depends on the passive skill Poisonous. You can see it by holding for a few seconds your mouse pointer over some cards, like scorpions, chrysaora, pufferfish.
In the future, if you're not sure, just ask things like this in the general section, because this thread is for patches and new versions, and when people see a new post here, they get excited thinking "yay, new cards!" and then they are disappointed since there are no real news!
It happened to me just now!  :P
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: iTry on October 29, 2011, 05:05:19 am
Liking the new updates.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 29, 2011, 02:03:29 pm
hmm... when Oty eats something with a poison counter, he gains a single counter.
Is this new or has it been implemented since the 1.29 release?
It's not depending on the poison counter. It depends on the passive skill Poisonous. You can see it by holding for a few seconds your mouse pointer over some cards, like scorpions, chrysaora, pufferfish.
In the future, if you're not sure, just ask things like this in the general section, because this thread is for patches and new versions, and when people see a new post here, they get excited thinking "yay, new cards!" and then they are disappointed since there are no real news!
It happened to me just now!  :P
Its a question about the update, so it is pretty relevant. New cards will come in a new patch.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: zanzarino on October 30, 2011, 05:55:48 am
1.292 now live.
Updated OP.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on October 30, 2011, 05:58:39 am
Wow, that's awesome. Thank you so much for listening to our suggestions. :D

Arena rating system: I assume this is to counter decks like Firestall, Ghostmare, etc.? Awesome, and the money adds incentive to rate the decks. My only concern is with people giving thumbs down to every deck they lose to.

PvP reward: About time there was more incentive to PvP. Excellent.

Shard of Sacrifice HP cost: It was bound to happen. I'm just sad that my Platinum-farming days with SPlat may be over.

AI de-retardation: Excellent.

Graphic error: My OCD is pleased.

0 HP bug: I hope this means the poison/Antimatter issue is fixed.

In summary, awesome patch.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: GG on October 30, 2011, 06:17:37 am
1. Kongregate is still in 1.29 version (not even 1.291). Is it gonna get updated (which is going to make a bunch of people rage..) any soon?

2. SoSac is still pretty imbalanced and increasing HP limit is only going to make it a highly situational and useless card. Should try some other way of fixing it, like for example, making it a permanent?

3. Arena thumbs system is awesome, but as Xeno said, there might be issues where noobs rage at decks that they lose against and put thumbs down. Well putting thumbs down doesn't do anything, so I guess that doesn't really matter.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: furballdn on October 30, 2011, 06:20:05 am
Very, very nice. I like the rating system. Maybe we can finally encourage some creativity!
Like the nerf to SoSa
and like the rewards to PVP.
Nice job Zanz! I like this patch!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on October 30, 2011, 06:27:54 am
Very nice.  Shard of sacrifice was too strong.  I also just tried one game of pvp2, and won 172 electrum (not even EM) so that's definitely a lot higher than it was.  That will hopefully make pvp more appealing.  I don't think it will stop shard farming at all, though, but I'm not sure if it was even meant to.

I'm not sure how I feel about the arena rating system, since it changes things into more of a popularity contest, but I can see why it was done.  I'll definitely give it a chance and see how it works out.  As long as being highly ranked in the arena only gives a token amount of electrum plus a fattened ego, I'm okay with having it be an opinion-based system rather than hard mathematics.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on October 30, 2011, 07:05:46 am
About the 0 HP bug fix: Now when you kill an opponent the final hitting sound doesn't play.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rember on October 30, 2011, 07:35:33 am
Wow, very nice update.

I hope the arena rating thing works out.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Elite arbiter on October 30, 2011, 07:40:45 am
Very nice.  Shard of sacrifice was too strong.  I also just tried one game of pvp2, and won 172 electrum (not even EM) so that's definitely a lot higher than it was.  That will hopefully make pvp more appealing.  I don't think it will stop shard farming at all, though, but I'm not sure if it was even meant to.

I'm not sure how I feel about the arena rating system, since it changes things into more of a popularity contest, but I can see why it was done.  I'll definitely give it a chance and see how it works out.  As long as being highly ranked in the arena only gives a token amount of electrum plus a fattened ego, I'm okay with having it be an opinion-based system rather than hard mathematics.
It fixes the problem of unoriginal decks, and although it makes it slightly into a popularity test that just inspires people to be creative. Besides, its not like it isn't still pure cold math in some degree. Ghostmare and Death Stall will still rule the roost.


Also, as a side question, what happens to thumbs upping a deck that you beat? Or can you not rate decks that you beat to give them a slight lessening of the loss penalty? (Since 'doubling' technically would make loss twice as bad instead of better.)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on October 30, 2011, 07:47:21 am
If you win, you don't get to rate the deck.  I don't know if that's intended, but probably, since if you win, they lost, and doubling their electrum win is still zero, plus you don't lose your entry fee if you win.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Elite arbiter on October 30, 2011, 07:50:14 am
I understand that, although I'd like occasionally to rate decks that didn't quite win but were fun to play against. Makes sense though, and it 'does' eliminate the possibility of making farms more survivable.

Also, a big thing with the burrow thing that the AI should learn to do, and it'll probably make Graboid rushes a big pain, but the AI should learn to unburrow after SoSa stops being chained, since we're making AI burrow when SoSa is up.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on October 30, 2011, 07:53:38 am
I have never seen the AI unburrow, even when doing so would win it the game.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rickerd on October 30, 2011, 07:58:39 am
leave it as it is, now sosa is nerfed it's enough.
LEAVE SOSA ALONE! :P
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Sal on October 30, 2011, 08:32:33 am
so why would i ever thumbs up a deck that is not my own ?
chat is down btw.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on October 30, 2011, 08:34:33 am
so why would i ever thumbs up a deck that is not my own ?
chat is down btw.
Why wouldn't you? You're basically giving the deck maker a small reward for being creative. Why give +rep on the forums?

And Chat is not down.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Sal on October 30, 2011, 08:48:26 am
yeah its working again. got a 404 error a few mintues ago and assumed the patch broke it.

you really can´t be that creative and create a "new" deck.
the cardpool is just too limited for that to happen and fire is still just ridiculous combined with double draw.
there is no reason to play any other element because fire got it all (permanent control, creature control and good creatures) - and the double card draw will ensure that you will get what you need sooner or later.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on October 30, 2011, 08:50:40 am
I can think of a reason not to use Fire: you don't get a fire card from the Oracle.

Besides, there's a lot more variety in Arena nowadays.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Jappert on October 30, 2011, 08:58:00 am
What I don't get is the following:

If I meet this insanely boring Arena deck (Immorush, Mono Darkness, whatever) and lose. I either have to give the deck double rating (thumbs down, seems more like a reward!) or rate it thumbs up.

Those are both positive aren't they?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on October 30, 2011, 09:03:40 am
I don't understand. Thumbs down does nothing; thumbs up doubles the rating gained by the deck.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Calindu on October 30, 2011, 09:05:46 am
On kong pvp is still the same, correct me if I am wrong.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Jappert on October 30, 2011, 09:14:49 am
I don't understand. Thumbs down does nothing; thumbs up doubles the rating gained by the deck.
BRB, Learning to read!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on October 30, 2011, 09:39:57 am
I just rated this good-looking fellow's deck as 'fun and original', for obvious reasons.  *rubs extra electrum together greedily*

(http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/4407/definitelyfun.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/528/definitelyfun.jpg/)
It will only happen once in 500 games, but it seems pretty silly to be able to rate my own deck! :p
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Polari on October 30, 2011, 10:08:57 am
For the record, I absolutely loathe the idea of turning competition into a popularity contest.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on October 30, 2011, 10:17:17 am
For the record, I absolutely loathe the idea of turning competition into a popularity contest.
It's not bad as a temporary fix, but if having a highly ranked arena deck ever means more in the future, it would need to be changed.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: teffy on October 30, 2011, 11:42:59 am
Can I see the ups and downs my deck gets ? If not, this could be part of the next patch :)
Thanks for the rating thing. Also thanks for PvP rewards.

Edit:
I see that new PvP rewards are somewhere close to costs * 3. What is the exact formula ?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rowcla on October 30, 2011, 12:12:40 pm
hmm, pvp1 costs a lot more now, I suppose ill find less noobs now  :'(
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on October 30, 2011, 12:29:01 pm
so why would i ever thumbs up a deck that is not my own ?
chat is down btw.
Why wouldn't you? You're basically giving the deck maker a small reward for being creative. Why give +rep on the forums?

And Chat is not down.
Because you get electrum, of course. It's weird only being able to rate decks you lose against though.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Jappert on October 30, 2011, 12:53:50 pm
Yeah I support being able to vote all decks you play against.

Being rewarded for building original and fun decks shouldn't be dependant of your deck winning.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 30, 2011, 01:40:47 pm
The Current System:
If you lose to a deck, then you have the option of rating it  + or -.
Rating it + gives it extra rating, which means it will stay in the arena longer.
Rating it - does nothing.

The reason, that I can see, that he has this system is that he doesn't need to have the thumbs down do anything except the normal function.
Meanwhile, you cant rate decks you win against because the you could easily rate + so that you face more decks that you won against.

I think SoS should do 25 dmg, destroy all non :death quanta, and destroy all of your none :death pillars/towers.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Elite arbiter on October 30, 2011, 02:03:28 pm
That doesn't solve the SoSa problem for the big two decks so far that use it.

Death Stall is... only death cards, possibly with water mark for And SPlat doesn't actually need to do anything once it gets its first hit in, so it doesn't care so much about those towers, although it'll hurt it slightly. However, this gave me an idea to actually balance it that could work, I would put it in the SoSa area but I 'just' posted there and I'm avoiding doubleposting.


Make it a Pump spell.

Base the hp cost on the amount of quanta you have upon playing it. Something like costing 80 hp as a base, but the more quanta absorbed the more the cost is reduced for that playing, down to a minimum of 20 or somesuch. A scaling effect would probably be best, meaning a 1:1 hp : quanta ratio until it goes down to 50 hp, then a 1:2 hp : quanta ratio from 50 down to 20. The ratios can be adjusted, my point is the system itself.

Death quanta  :death won't be absorbed but will count as 'being' absorbed, to give death that extra benefit still. So with full 75 death quanta you get to use 28 Hp SoSa's. But you had to do work to get your Death quanta that high. Also, this means that Shard of Conscience becomes a counter to SoSa! (And even 'one' helps drastically)
The purpose of this is to make SoSa take actual effort in between uses to use, or have a high start-up effort requirement. The only issue is making heavy Control Rainbows with many Quantum Towers not gain the full benefit each time, since they have easy access to that sheer amount of quanta generation, but an additional formula can be put in to make a diminishing effect for each additional element thrown into the mix if that becomes an actual problem, long as it calculates Death as highest priority.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rastafla on October 30, 2011, 02:58:07 pm
That doesn't solve the SoSa problem for the big two decks so far that use it.

Death Stall is... only death cards, possibly with water mark for And SPlat doesn't actually need to do anything once it gets its first hit in, so it doesn't care so much about those towers, although it'll hurt it slightly. However, this gave me an idea to actually balance it that could work, I would put it in the SoSa area but I 'just' posted there and I'm avoiding doubleposting.


Make it a Pump spell.

Base the hp cost on the amount of quanta you have upon playing it. Something like costing 80 hp as a base, but the more quanta absorbed the more the cost is reduced for that playing, down to a minimum of 20 or somesuch. A scaling effect would probably be best, meaning a 1:1 hp : quanta ratio until it goes down to 50 hp, then a 1:2 hp : quanta ratio from 50 down to 20. The ratios can be adjusted, my point is the system itself.

Death quanta  :death won't be absorbed but will count as 'being' absorbed, to give death that extra benefit still. So with full 75 death quanta you get to use 28 Hp SoSa's. But you had to do work to get your Death quanta that high. Also, this means that Shard of Conscience becomes a counter to SoSa! (And even 'one' helps drastically)
The purpose of this is to make SoSa take actual effort in between uses to use, or have a high start-up effort requirement. The only issue is making heavy Control Rainbows with many Quantum Towers not gain the full benefit each time, since they have easy access to that sheer amount of quanta generation, but an additional formula can be put in to make a diminishing effect for each additional element thrown into the mix if that becomes an actual problem, long as it calculates Death as highest priority.
Too complicated.

The problem is the immortality itself. Its works against too much.

Just make it work similarly to how voodoo dolls operate but in reverse. Only if you survived the hit you get healed (would still be killable from a really strong creatures or powered up bolts.) And/Or enable heal, stoneskin, miracle to be cast on the opponent.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Elite arbiter on October 30, 2011, 03:09:29 pm
That doesn't solve the SoSa problem for the big two decks so far that use it.

Death Stall is... only death cards, possibly with water mark for And SPlat doesn't actually need to do anything once it gets its first hit in, so it doesn't care so much about those towers, although it'll hurt it slightly. However, this gave me an idea to actually balance it that could work, I would put it in the SoSa area but I 'just' posted there and I'm avoiding doubleposting.


Make it a Pump spell.

Base the hp cost on the amount of quanta you have upon playing it. Something like costing 80 hp as a base, but the more quanta absorbed the more the cost is reduced for that playing, down to a minimum of 20 or somesuch. A scaling effect would probably be best, meaning a 1:1 hp : quanta ratio until it goes down to 50 hp, then a 1:2 hp : quanta ratio from 50 down to 20. The ratios can be adjusted, my point is the system itself.

Death quanta  :death won't be absorbed but will count as 'being' absorbed, to give death that extra benefit still. So with full 75 death quanta you get to use 28 Hp SoSa's. But you had to do work to get your Death quanta that high. Also, this means that Shard of Conscience becomes a counter to SoSa! (And even 'one' helps drastically)
The purpose of this is to make SoSa take actual effort in between uses to use, or have a high start-up effort requirement. The only issue is making heavy Control Rainbows with many Quantum Towers not gain the full benefit each time, since they have easy access to that sheer amount of quanta generation, but an additional formula can be put in to make a diminishing effect for each additional element thrown into the mix if that becomes an actual problem, long as it calculates Death as highest priority.
Too complicated.

The problem is the immortality itself. Its works against too much.

Just make it work similarly to how voodoo dolls operate but in reverse. Only if you survived the hit you get healed (would still be killable from a really strong creatures or powered up bolts.) And/Or enable heal, stoneskin, miracle to be cast on the opponent.
Most of that was talk about balance. Its actually just "Lower hp cost based on quanta when played", and the formula is about as complicated as the catapult one. 1:1 efficiency from 80 to 50, 1:2 efficiency from 50 to 20.

Although that "only heal if survived" is a good idea as well. And I agree with heal, and possibly stoneskin being elemental targeting, but I'm not sure about Miracle for the casting on your opponent.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: silux on October 30, 2011, 03:15:27 pm
Well i lost against a deck in the arena.
thumb up and i might play against him again.
thumb down and i make it harder to find in the arena.
In both cases i got 5 electrum.

I'd rate always thumb down, so next time i will get an easier deck!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rastafla on October 30, 2011, 03:30:12 pm
Well i lost against a deck in the arena.
thumb up and i might play against him again.
thumb down and i make it harder to find in the arena.
In both cases i got 5 electrum.

I'd rate always thumb down, so next time i will get an easier deck!
If you follow that rule you should thumbs up decks that you just lost to due to bad startinghand/draw too shouldnt you?
Since the next time you should beat it given a normal draw.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Jocko on October 30, 2011, 03:36:45 pm
THUMBS UP if you liked this update :P :P :P
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Djhopper :) on October 30, 2011, 04:21:47 pm
Rating system.

Original decks play and lose. They don't get the thumbs-up they should get for originality :(

Original decks still have to win games, which might be hard :(
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Avenger on October 30, 2011, 04:51:14 pm
I will thumb down only firestalls and grabo rushes. They are really really old.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: silux on October 30, 2011, 05:50:33 pm
Well i lost against a deck in the arena.
thumb up and i might play against him again.
thumb down and i make it harder to find in the arena.
In both cases i got 5 electrum.

I'd rate always thumb down, so next time i will get an easier deck!
If you follow that rule you should thumbs up decks that you just lost to due to bad startinghand/draw too shouldnt you?
Since the next time you should beat it given a normal draw.
You got my point!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Cless on October 30, 2011, 06:14:33 pm
When a creature with vampire attacks for lethal damage, it now ends the game before adding the health that is gained from that creature's attack to your health total. I found this out when it cost me an elemental mastery. I'm not sure if this is an intended consequence, but it's obscure enough to post.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Skotadi Phobos on October 30, 2011, 06:36:18 pm
phobos like more moneys
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on October 30, 2011, 06:39:23 pm
That doesn't solve the SoSa problem for the big two decks so far that use it.

Death Stall is... only death cards, possibly with water mark for And SPlat doesn't actually need to do anything once it gets its first hit in, so it doesn't care so much about those towers, although it'll hurt it slightly. However, this gave me an idea to actually balance it that could work, I would put it in the SoSa area but I 'just' posted there and I'm avoiding doubleposting.


Make it a Pump spell.

Base the hp cost on the amount of quanta you have upon playing it. Something like costing 80 hp as a base, but the more quanta absorbed the more the cost is reduced for that playing, down to a minimum of 20 or somesuch. A scaling effect would probably be best, meaning a 1:1 hp : quanta ratio until it goes down to 50 hp, then a 1:2 hp : quanta ratio from 50 down to 20. The ratios can be adjusted, my point is the system itself.

Death quanta  :death won't be absorbed but will count as 'being' absorbed, to give death that extra benefit still. So with full 75 death quanta you get to use 28 Hp SoSa's. But you had to do work to get your Death quanta that high. Also, this means that Shard of Conscience becomes a counter to SoSa! (And even 'one' helps drastically)
The purpose of this is to make SoSa take actual effort in between uses to use, or have a high start-up effort requirement. The only issue is making heavy Control Rainbows with many Quantum Towers not gain the full benefit each time, since they have easy access to that sheer amount of quanta generation, but an additional formula can be put in to make a diminishing effect for each additional element thrown into the mix if that becomes an actual problem, long as it calculates Death as highest priority.
Too complicated.

The problem is the immortality itself. Its works against too much.

Just make it work similarly to how voodoo dolls operate but in reverse. Only if you survived the hit you get healed (would still be killable from a really strong creatures or powered up bolts.) And/Or enable heal, stoneskin, miracle to be cast on the opponent.
Most of that was talk about balance. Its actually just "Lower hp cost based on quanta when played", and the formula is about as complicated as the catapult one. 1:1 efficiency from 80 to 50, 1:2 efficiency from 50 to 20.

Although that "only heal if survived" is a good idea as well. And I agree with heal, and possibly stoneskin being elemental targeting, but I'm not sure about Miracle for the casting on your opponent.
Easier and better will be making this ability for two players, so You and Your opponent has got healing instead damage in 2 turns. Of course cost will be lower (maybe 8-10 HP). It is perfectly balanced against rush decks (this is a previous idea of SoS), and consuming all quantum disable OTK (then it will be OP).
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 30, 2011, 06:49:29 pm
Rating system.

Original decks play and lose. They don't get the thumbs-up they should get for originality :(

Original decks still have to win games, which might be hard :(
Its better how it is because then people could just thumbs up decks that they win against so they have a better chance to play against them. Allowing only on decks you lose against, encourages originality to be more of a factor.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Shantu on October 30, 2011, 06:51:18 pm
It would be great to see how many thumbs up and down your deck got.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on October 30, 2011, 06:58:53 pm
well, this new thumbs up down thing is quite interesting.. i rather enjoy that concept..
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: suxerz on October 30, 2011, 07:48:10 pm
When a creature with vampire attacks for lethal damage, it now ends the game before adding the health that is gained from that creature's attack to your health total. I found this out when it cost me an elemental mastery. I'm not sure if this is an intended consequence, but it's obscure enough to post.
Yeah, this made me sad..  :'(
Though I understand that this "change" is to fix few bugs (e.g. Anti-poison), I really hope that zanz could change this. EM is already quite hard to obtain and with this change, I feel that it would kill most if not all EM decks especially the fun EM decks like vampiric chimera.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rastafla on October 30, 2011, 08:21:14 pm
I dont think its bad. Gives the incentive to use heal and :life / :light if you want your EMs.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rutarete on October 30, 2011, 08:26:43 pm
I like the update except for the not healing before winning.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: petersenk on October 30, 2011, 08:38:36 pm
I dont think its bad.
Of course it is, since this doesn't follow the rules. A vampiric attack is well defined, so this is a bug that needs to be fixed, no matter if you think the consequences of said bug are fine. End of the story.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on October 30, 2011, 09:47:46 pm
It's not bad.  The only deck this affects is the instatosis deck if you use a liquid shadow to get an EM after being brought down to like 20 hp or something.  This is actually good.  The game should be over instantly, the moment someone hits 0 hp, before any other effect happens.

People are always saying decks are being ruined.  Well they are dead wrong.  The thing you must do now is try out different strategies possibly changing some cards up if you want the exact same effect your deck had before.  The decks can be played with the same cards as before, you just need to play differently.  If you change cards, your strategy will change. 

Change is good, people are just afraid of change. 
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: petersenk on October 30, 2011, 09:57:21 pm
This is actually good.  The game should be over instantly, the moment someone hits 0 hp, before any other effect happens.
The healing effect of vampiric is NOT some other effect. It's one and the same: it takes away health from A and directs it to B all in one go.
Stop talking out of your ass, dear sir ;)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on October 30, 2011, 10:17:08 pm
Keep the discussion civil, please.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Elite arbiter on October 30, 2011, 10:22:35 pm
I think the argument being made is that the health being 'vamped' has to travel from the opponent to you, and that the hp can't get to you in time.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on October 30, 2011, 10:27:42 pm
This is actually good.  The game should be over instantly, the moment someone hits 0 hp, before any other effect happens.
The healing effect of vampiric is NOT some other effect. It's one and the same: it takes away health from A and directs it to B all in one go.
Stop talking out of your ass, dear sir ;)
No. It is a sequential effect in the coding. First the damage is dealt then the healing is delivered. These are separate actions in the code.*

*Actually it is more than just two actions but those are the only actions that are directly relevant.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on October 30, 2011, 10:35:10 pm
When a creature with vampire attacks for lethal damage, it now ends the game before adding the health that is gained from that creature's attack to your health total. I found this out when it cost me an elemental mastery. I'm not sure if this is an intended consequence, but it's obscure enough to post.
Yeah, this made me sad..  :'(
Though I understand that this "change" is to fix few bugs (e.g. Anti-poison), I really hope that zanz could change this. EM is already quite hard to obtain and with this change, I feel that it would kill most if not all EM decks especially the fun EM decks like vampiric chimera.

I also feel this change is somewhat annoying for EM purposes, IMHO. It's difficult to time permanent healing so that your weapon deals the killing blow if you're not planning ahead. InstaHealing spells are nice, but can only be found in 3 elements ( :light  :life  :darkness , although only darkness gets nerfed due to this) Overall, making electrum has become slower, though this could be justified if players were making too much Electrum from vampire decks. (Though that doesn't seem to be the case.)

I dont think its bad. Gives the incentive to use heal and :life / :light if you want your EMs.
It's nice that Light and Life get more emphasis on their healing, but the change does slow down a few grinder decks' income such as Vader Saders. Said decks usually are best vs. AI3 or are stalls (forgive me if I'm wrong), and while it doesn't affect the actual game, it does slow down a (usually lower level) player's ability to gain Electrum. 

Note that most of said decks also are  :darkness based, so overall it may fix a few bugs, but it also hurts newer Darkness players a bit, intentionally or not.

Quote from: bucky1andonly
It's not bad.  The only deck this affects is the instatosis deck if you use a liquid shadow to get an EM after being brought down to like 20 hp or something.  This is actually good.  The game should be over instantly, the moment someone hits 0 hp, before any other effect happens.
Thematically you could argue that Life Transfer occurs at the same time Life Drain does (It's the same energy, no? You're just transferring it from one "container" to another), so it could be fair to have healing occur before damage. And as I mentioned above, this deck affects more decks than just Instatosis.

Quote
People are always saying decks are being ruined.  Well they are dead wrong.  The thing you must do now is try out different strategies possibly changing some cards up if you want the exact same effect your deck had before.  The decks can be played with the same cards as before, you just need to play differently.  If you change cards, your strategy will change.
Some decks are actually ruined, but most of these decks revolved around certain buggy or powerful concepts (Firestall, Cloak-based Anti-FG decks, Old Sundial decks, etc...)  Chances are if it wasn't an AI screwup, altered decks may still function well with a few changes that don't affect the strategy of the deck, rather just the amount of cards. (It's still possible to make a good Firestall - they're just not metagame-breaking anymore).


tl;dr version : To sum it all up, Vampiric decks aren't actually "ruined" in this case - it's more a matter of how quickly Zanz wants players to gain electrum, IMO.
Was the current amount of :electrum being gained from Vampire EMs sufficiently gamebreaking? That's up to interpretation, since it affects something outside the actual battle, and the fact you're trying to balance the whole thing against a bug.

Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: willng3 on October 30, 2011, 10:41:51 pm
I suspect that the interaction between Vampire and EMing the opponent is related to the Antimatter Poison bug now being fixed.  I'm not sure if it's intended, but before anyone jumps to any conclusions about zanz just wanting to nerf Darkness EM decks, keep that in mind.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: FlareGlutox on October 30, 2011, 10:52:06 pm
I suspect that the interaction between Vampire and EMing the opponent is related to the Antimatter Poison bug now being fixed.  I'm not sure if it's intended, but before anyone jumps to any conclusions about zanz just wanting to nerf Darkness EM decks, keep that in mind.
And I thought that to be obvious  ;).

Nah, nevertheless it's probably good to remind people of this.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: petersenk on October 30, 2011, 11:51:05 pm
No. It is a sequential effect in the coding. First the damage is dealt then the healing is delivered. These are separate actions in the code.*
Well, obviously it's coded that way (for whatever reason... smells like bad design that needs to be refactored...). That's why it's broken now. But in the game(-world) itself beeing vampiric is clearly defined: it's not a one-directional thing. It is bidirectional, so we may aswell swap the argument: if you don't get healed, you couldn't and haven't done any damage. Doing damage and healing yourself is one and the same; thats the very definition of "vampirism". 
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: zanzarino on October 30, 2011, 11:57:08 pm
1.293:
Simply removed the "details" page and merged it with the "you lost" page.

P.S. : In a computer program things never happen "at the same time".

Either

<New version>
1. deal damage
2. win

or

<Old version>
1. deal damage
2. heal
3. win

1. deal damage & heal
2. win

Is not an option.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on October 30, 2011, 11:58:06 pm
1.293:
Simply removed the "details" and merged it with the "you lost" page.
Ooh, nice.

What about all the bugs associated with the instant death though?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on October 30, 2011, 11:58:22 pm
No. It is a sequential effect in the coding. First the damage is dealt then the healing is delivered. These are separate actions in the code.*
Well, obviously it's coded that way (for whatever reason... smells like bad design that needs to be refactored...). That's why it's broken now. But in the game(-world) itself beeing vampiric is clearly defined: it's not a one-directional thing. It is bidirectional, so we may aswell swap the argument: if you don't get healed, you couldn't and haven't done any damage. Doing damage and healing yourself is one and the same; thats the very definition of "vampirism".
So Vampire should heal itself and not you? The Keyword "Vampire" is a descriptive term used to approximate the effect Zanz intended.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rember on October 31, 2011, 12:22:09 am
Would letting HP go negative work? Giving a loss if it happened at any point after healing/damage takes effect. Or only at the end of the turn, antimatter bug wouldn't matter much since more than enough overkill takes effect in most cases.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: petersenk on October 31, 2011, 01:10:42 am
P.S. : In a computer program things never happen "at the same time".
I'm pretty sure I've got more than one core over here, happily crunching some numbers - at the same time... ;)

1. deal damage & heal
2. win

Is not an option.
There should be simply no other action between the damage- and the heal-action from "vampirism", making them atomic in nature. First damage is applied, and whatever that damage amounted to is the amount the player gets healed instantly. Then the program may happily proceed (and maybe win the game...).

It doesn't make much sense that the vampiric healing effect get's queued and then that queue doesn't get processed anymore in case you've already won. Rules need to be simple and consistent.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on October 31, 2011, 01:29:31 am
P.S. : In a computer program things never happen "at the same time".
I'm pretty sure I've got more than one core over here, happily crunching some numbers - at the same time... ;)

1. deal damage & heal
2. win

Is not an option.
There should be simply no other action between the damage- and the heal-action from "vampirism", making them atomic in nature. First damage is applied, and whatever that damage amounted to is the amount the player gets healed instantly. Then the program may happily proceed (and maybe win the game...).

It doesn't make much sense that the vampiric healing effect get's queued and then that queue doesn't get processed anymore in case you've already won. Rules need to be simple and consistent.
doesnt matter how many cores you have, you cant excecute two distinct statements at once.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Chapuz on October 31, 2011, 02:53:11 am
but you can do 2 events, then evaluate 2 conditions and finally make an action depending on both conditions. I like that vamp healing is done after damage. why? because it's only matter of getting EM and that's an outgame function (getting more electrum). This way, there will be more decks that focus on winning and not only getting EMs.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: BluePriest on October 31, 2011, 04:59:29 am
but you can do 2 events, then evaluate 2 conditions and finally make an action depending on both conditions. I like that vamp healing is done after damage. why? because it's only matter of getting EM and that's an outgame function (getting more electrum). This way, there will be more decks that focus on winning and not only getting EMs.
Agreed. EM's are great, but as chapuz put it, its an "outgame function". It doesnt effect the battles in any way. The only thing it effects is the amount of electrum won. Simple solution? Do enough vampire damage BEFORE you kill your opponent to heal you up to an EM.
Honestly, People are lucky the skill vampire heals yourself, and not the creature like, you know, an actual vampire (except the twilight ones... oh wait, I said actual vampires... screw you you glitter freaks!)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RRQJ on October 31, 2011, 05:32:44 am
P.S. : In a computer program things never happen "at the same time".
I'm pretty sure I've got more than one core over here, happily crunching some numbers - at the same time... ;)

No, that's not "at the same time."  You just think it happens at the same time because the computer does it faster than you can notice.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on October 31, 2011, 07:01:27 am
I just relogged to elements to get the oracle spin and saw it's at 1.293 now.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bucky1andonly on October 31, 2011, 09:40:52 am
Quote from: petersenk
I'm pretty sure I've got more than one core over here, happily crunching some numbers - at the same time... ;)
That is funny.  Same time, lmao.  Gimme the lamp you got the genie out of that gave you that computer.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: AchDeToni on October 31, 2011, 01:48:30 pm
Very nice change to PvP, making it much more attractive  :light
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: FlareGlutox on October 31, 2011, 02:05:26 pm
1.293:
Simply removed the "details" page and merged it with the "you lost" page.

P.S. : In a computer program things never happen "at the same time".

Either

<New version>
1. deal damage
2. win

or

<Old version>
1. deal damage
2. heal
3. win

1. deal damage & heal
2. win

Is not an option.
Since coding-wise damage and healing can't be done at the same time, but this is the way it works thematically, i'd suggest to fix the Antimatter Poison bug differently, so that it doesn't affect the vampire ability: As it works now, any form of damage causes an immediate win, but how about applying this fact only to poison damage? This way poison damage would occur, then you would lose immediately and no antimatter'd creature would be able to heal you afterwards.

P.S.: You can ignore the statement above, if it was intended to make an EM via the vampire ability more difficult.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Jocko on October 31, 2011, 05:08:34 pm
Is it really important that poison damage is dealt before the creature dmg? If not, that would've been another way around to fix the AM bug, making poison deal the dmg between the creatures and the perms.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: majofa on October 31, 2011, 06:43:15 pm
Notice my score:
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd233734/Screen_shot_2011_10_31_at_11.3.png)

Now notice my score after defeating a Bronze deck:
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd233733/Screen_shot_2011_10_31_at_11.3.png)

Yep, negative score for beating a Bronze deck.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on November 01, 2011, 12:53:33 am
Something about that is just hilariously funny.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Jocko on November 01, 2011, 02:40:56 am
That's Zanz punishing you for abusing the poor Bronze players when the shards came out.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RRQJ on November 03, 2011, 11:46:56 pm
So, just to get this straight, if a player loses to an arena deck and votes down, effectively nothing has changed compared to the same situation pre-1.292.  If they vote up, though, the deck gains double rating and double :electrum, yes? (My platinum deck has 1 win but gained 20 :electrum and 14 rating; normally 1 win would be 10 :electrum and <12 rating).
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: dragonsdemesne on November 03, 2011, 11:59:07 pm
So, just to get this straight, if a player loses to an arena deck and votes down, effectively nothing has changed compared to the same situation pre-1.292.  If they vote up, though, the deck gains double rating and double :electrum, yes? (My platinum deck has 1 win but gained 20 :electrum and 14 rating; normally 1 win would be 10 :electrum and <12 rating).
Yes.  If everyone hates your deck, you are still no worse off electrum-wise than before.  If even a few people like it, you're ahead.  The only real difference is that well-liked decks will have a better chance of rising high on the leaderboard, but that's just for show, other than top ten electrum rewards, and even that is still fairly small.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on November 05, 2011, 06:21:46 pm
That's Zanz punishing you for abusing the poor Bronze players when the shards came out.
my score just went down for beating bronze as well.  to 12764.  is it still abusing if its the only league you can even get close to being able to get rares from?  cuz i only have like a 20% winrate in silver.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: moomoose on November 06, 2011, 12:15:21 am
its a good thing that score is largely irrelevant.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: russianspy1234 on November 06, 2011, 12:45:49 am
its a good thing that score is largely irrelevant.
aside from determining how many points you get to use on your arena deck.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on November 09, 2011, 09:43:09 pm
so im confused on this rating system.. i have a 22/9 arena deck in gold. and it went from -12 rating to -72 rating? is that the thumbs down thing 72 times? i think that is bull.. my deck was a random dragon entropy deck. i just threw it together with no real strategy in mind other than put the dragons i was forced to use into play quickly. yet 22/9 is not in the top 500?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Elite arbiter on November 09, 2011, 09:57:20 pm
so im confused on this rating system.. i have a 22/9 arena deck in gold. and it went from -12 rating to -72 rating? is that the thumbs down thing 72 times? i think that is bull.. my deck was a random dragon entropy deck. i just threw it together with no real strategy in mind other than put the dragons i was forced to use into play quickly. yet 22/9 is not in the top 500?
I'm not sure what you mean by -12 to -72, or if it has to do with the rating system. When was it -12, and when was it -72? The closest thing I can think of to cause that is if losses are -30 in gold and you just lost 2 matches in a row. But I'm not seeing where the rating system comes into this. Are you saying that its "bull" that your deck got pushed out by less standard decks because they are creative?

All the thumbs up system is, if you rate a deck thumbs up their victory over you counts double. Thats literally all it does, and thumbs down = what happened before when a deck beat you.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Polari on November 09, 2011, 10:42:12 pm
yet 22/9 is not in the top 500?
Why should it be top 500? Looking at the current gold leaderboards, there's a 23-7 deck currently 477th. 22-9 is not in the top 500 because there are over 500 decks that are doing better, I don't see what's the problem here.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on November 10, 2011, 03:35:28 am
well w/e the case.. seemed little off that 22/9 was doing just fine and then all of a sudden no change in my stats and its over 500... one thing i have noticed i dont like about the "randomness" of things.. I have had decks play 3 matches in matter of 10 minutes.. and then some times i can go half the day without a single match.. how is that fair? i was <500 during the night. wake up in the morning and its 779th.. with no stat changes in wins or losses.. so that means EVERY other persons deck above mine.. was played against more often than mine.

Also, when playing in arena.. I have NEVER once played against anyone in the top 10.. of any of the lgs no matter how many ive done or hours i played. doesnt that kind of defeat the purpose of taking down the top decks if you never get to play them?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RRQJ on November 10, 2011, 04:30:20 am
if you're in gold, your not just fighting against other decks but also against the massive influx of new decks.  Chances are your deck moved down not because of other people's decks being played more, but because new decks coming in push it down.

As for the top 10, the fact that they are in the top 10 means they've probably been played a lot.  You just weren't one of the players who played them.  And honestly, I would rather avoid them since they are most likely strong decks that would put my win streak in jeopardy.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bored_ninja777 on November 10, 2011, 05:58:41 am
but new decks wouldnt effect mine if it was already less than 200.. which it was.. maybe other decks got hit more than mine and won and pushed me out idk.. just seems little off. w/e ill live.. not like any of mine last more than 3 days. and why avoid the best decks.. those are the ones worth beating.. the rare spin sucks.. ive had more than 50% of them give me nothing.. and the ones i did win.. i won a useless SOD or SOG..i actually won a shard of sac from someones deck.. the only new shard i have. 
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RRQJ on November 10, 2011, 05:46:45 pm
actually new decks affect all decks below 200-250, depending on where the 0 rating rank lies.  Basically you have to have positive rating to avoid incoming decks pushing you down.

The best decks are worth beating...if you beat them.  All my new shards were from the bonus spins, so having to play a high rank usually slows me down.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Tetti on November 13, 2011, 05:19:59 pm
Winning/Losing a game now instantly happens when a player has 0 HP (healing with AM should not revive a player anymore, to be tested)

This hasn't been completely fixed as I discovered while testing an arena deck.   The AI can set off an Unstable Gas to put me a 0 HP but if I have a Purify, it will heal me at that amount.  If the AI has no weapon equipped then I survive another round.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RRQJ on November 13, 2011, 06:15:33 pm
Winning/Losing a game now instantly happens when a player has 0 HP (healing with AM should not revive a player anymore, to be tested)

This hasn't been completely fixed as I discovered while testing an arena deck.   The AI can set off an Unstable Gas to put me a 0 HP but if I have a Purify, it will heal me at that amount.  If the AI has no weapon equipped then I survive another round.
How is that possible?  Purify heals when the AI ends his turn and his creatures attack, etc.  If it set off UG and put your HP to 0, you should lose before purify can do anything.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on November 13, 2011, 06:34:16 pm
Just like Catapulted Titans should kill you, but lets you live with 0 HP. That's why both are bugs.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RRQJ on November 13, 2011, 07:21:50 pm
ah I remember seeing that mentioned.  And it involved doing the exact amount of damage, right?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Jenkar on November 19, 2011, 06:58:49 am
ah I remember seeing that mentioned.  And it involved doing the exact amount of damage, right?
Wrong iirc.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: DevilLoss on November 19, 2011, 10:10:39 am
not toatally loving the qaunta cap lock makes waterbolt decks (which arent ever used really) way to hard to win with and drainlifes get's nerfed the only thing not toatally nerfed is firbolt becuase it does 3 dmg while the other two only do two damage so idk.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on November 19, 2011, 11:34:24 am
When will new shards (:air :earth :fire :gravity) be able in development/trainer?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on November 19, 2011, 12:38:04 pm
Patience, my son. Shard of Patience, that is.

The remaining shards will be released in the next version, I believe. It could take weeks or months before they become available (they'll probably start appearing on the In Development page fairly soonish though).
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: TheGreatKhan on November 20, 2011, 01:24:02 am
The rating system seems off to me, you should be able to rate decks upon winning as well as losing, don't you agree?  Besides stopping chronic winners from rating decks they feel deserve the bonus, the current system limits raters to those the deck to be rated has just beaten, a biased crew at best.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rosutosefi on November 20, 2011, 01:42:47 am
The rating system seems off to me, you should be able to rate decks upon winning as well as losing, don't you agree?  Besides stopping chronic winners from rating decks they feel deserve the bonus, the current system limits raters to those the deck to be rated has just beaten, a biased crew at best.
Nope, if you were able to rate decks you win against, people will start creating farms. These farms will lose easily, but they stay in the arena because everyone will give it a thumbs up. And most of these "chronic winners" only give bonuses to new decks.  :D
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Djhopper :) on November 20, 2011, 10:05:51 am
The rating system seems off to me, you should be able to rate decks upon winning as well as losing, don't you agree?  Besides stopping chronic winners from rating decks they feel deserve the bonus, the current system limits raters to those the deck to be rated has just beaten, a biased crew at best.
Nope, if you were able to rate decks you win against, people will start creating farms. These farms will lose easily, but they stay in the arena because everyone will give it a thumbs up. And most of these "chronic winners" only give bonuses to new decks.  :D
The farms would go out. This "Thumbs Up" would just halve the amount of rating lost, as thumbs up currently doubles the amount of rating gained.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rosutosefi on November 20, 2011, 10:17:46 am
The rating system seems off to me, you should be able to rate decks upon winning as well as losing, don't you agree?  Besides stopping chronic winners from rating decks they feel deserve the bonus, the current system limits raters to those the deck to be rated has just beaten, a biased crew at best.
Nope, if you were able to rate decks you win against, people will start creating farms. These farms will lose easily, but they stay in the arena because everyone will give it a thumbs up. And most of these "chronic winners" only give bonuses to new decks.  :D
The farms would go out. This "Thumbs Up" would just halve the amount of rating lost, as thumbs up currently doubles the amount of rating gained.
This still makes farms stay longer than usual, which would be more evident in plat. Bad IMO.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: JonathanCrazyJ on November 23, 2011, 10:46:50 pm
omg completely off topic, but light_sefi is your avatar from Terranigma?!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: PuppyChow on November 29, 2011, 01:41:07 am
The rating system seems off to me, you should be able to rate decks upon winning as well as losing, don't you agree?  Besides stopping chronic winners from rating decks they feel deserve the bonus, the current system limits raters to those the deck to be rated has just beaten, a biased crew at best.
Nope, if you were able to rate decks you win against, people will start creating farms. These farms will lose easily, but they stay in the arena because everyone will give it a thumbs up. And most of these "chronic winners" only give bonuses to new decks.  :D
The farms would go out. This "Thumbs Up" would just halve the amount of rating lost, as thumbs up currently doubles the amount of rating gained.
This still makes farms stay longer than usual, which would be more evident in plat. Bad IMO.
Farms are bad how? I can see the line of reasoning with the Top 50 -- farms could literally stay up forever, and in addition were self farmable. But with number of decks in the arena, the odds of getting one are astronomically low and nobody really makes them since they want the extra cash, little though it is. Saying that farms would stay too long is definitely not a big enough problem to offset the benefits.

Allowing winners to vote could balance out the bias towards no that only having losers vote does. The winner voting wouldn't gain any extra electrum or score or something -- it'd just half the amount of rank a deck loses, and maybe also award the deck creator one-three electrum.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: koeniewoenie on November 30, 2011, 11:14:57 am
IMO, original decks that win deserve a reward (thumbs up rating), but everyone can make an original deck that loses, so there's no point rating them.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Djhopper :) on November 30, 2011, 01:35:03 pm
IMO, original decks that win deserve a reward (thumbs up rating), but everyone can make an original deck that loses, so there's no point rating them.
Original decks have lower win-rates than unoriginal decks. They don't deserve to go out after two loses though.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Polari on November 30, 2011, 02:00:12 pm
IMO, original decks that win deserve a reward (thumbs up rating), but everyone can make an original deck that loses, so there's no point rating them.
Original decks have lower win-rates than unoriginal decks. They don't deserve to go out after two loses though.
That's not a given. If you ask me, decks that lose deserve to go out regardless of how original they are.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Djhopper :) on November 30, 2011, 02:14:00 pm
IMO, original decks that win deserve a reward (thumbs up rating), but everyone can make an original deck that loses, so there's no point rating them.
Original decks have lower win-rates than unoriginal decks. They don't deserve to go out after two loses though.
That's not a given. If you ask me, decks that lose deserve to go out regardless of how original they are.
Here's an example:

Person 1 puts up a Sosa-poison-stall.
It does not lose.

Person 2 puts up an original deck.
It has a 50% win-rate.

Person 2 has done something much more impressive than Person 1, yet goes out after only a few games.

Is this fair?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: hendrydext on November 30, 2011, 03:58:01 pm
*leaves*
You can not leave Napalm: Elements needs you; besides,  if you leave you are going to miss the creation of the next fire card and that is the first item in my "to do" list after I am done with the shards.
2 months has passed..
There is no progress yet...

*leaves*
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on November 30, 2011, 04:03:42 pm
*leaves*
You can not leave Napalm: Elements needs you; besides,  if you leave you are going to miss the creation of the next fire card and that is the first item in my "to do" list after I am done with the shards.
2 months has passed..
There is no progress yet...

*leaves*
A great Fire card takes longer than 2 months especially since Sept was in the middle of the previous set being added and beta tested.
Please return
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Polari on November 30, 2011, 04:24:03 pm
Here's an example:

Person 1 puts up a Sosa-poison-stall.
It does not lose.

Person 2 puts up an original deck.
It has a 50% win-rate.

Person 2 has done something much more impressive than Person 1, yet goes out after only a few games.

Is this fair?
Person 1 put up a deck that didn't lose. Person 2 put up a deck that lost half its games. I don't see a problem here.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: OldTrees on November 30, 2011, 04:37:12 pm
Here's an example:

Person 1 puts up a Sosa-poison-stall.
It does not lose.

Person 2 puts up an original deck.
It has a 50% win-rate.

Person 2 has done something much more impressive than Person 1, yet goes out after only a few games.

Is this fair?
Person 1 put up a deck that didn't lose. Person 2 put up a deck that lost half its games. I don't see a problem here.
Agreed.

The goal of arena is twofold:
1) It provides a dynamic opponent that improves over time and adjusts to metagame changes. At higher arena levels it also is useful for determining the top tier decks.
2) It provides a reasonably difficult means of getting a rare card. This allows everyone access to rare cards while still maintaining their rarity for the collectors.

For the most part the rewards and punishments for the Arena decks winning and losing are related to goal 1. Ideally the most powerful decks would remain until a large minority of the players adjust the metagame to compensate. In the same manner ideally new decks would be tried and replace old decks if and only if they are stronger in the current metagame. Having the Win/loss ratio (base points) and the originality (voting) factor into a deck's lifespan in the arena promotes this behavior.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Djhopper :) on November 30, 2011, 06:23:44 pm
Ah... I understand your view now... Sorry...

Just to clarify: Do you think that the high difficulty of arena is more important than the fun factor and that it isn't how impressive the achievment is but how difficult the arena is?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Polari on November 30, 2011, 08:45:38 pm
Ah... I understand your view now... Sorry...

Just to clarify: Do you think that the high difficulty of arena is more important than the fun factor and that it isn't how impressive the achievment is but how difficult the arena is?
The difficulty is a secondary thing. As long as the arena works as a competition for the decks, there should be clear rules on how your deck is scored. Right now there's a straightforward system for rewarding wins and punishing losses, and a stupid, fuzzy adjustment thing that changes your score based on what the people who played against your deck felt like.

I'm all for rewarding originality, but it has to be through a solid ruleset that tells you up front how your deck will be scored. In the current system the players you get have almost as much of an effect on your scores than the deck itself, because everyone has a different idea on what's fun or original. Like I already said in another thread, personally I thumb-up everything because why would I not give people free gold when it costs me nothing, and I think the whole system is retarded anyway. I'm pretty sure there are also people who thumb-down everything just because they can. The idea of rewarding originality isn't necessarily broken, but the way it's currently done is.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: PuppyChow on November 30, 2011, 09:48:45 pm
I think people are misunderstanding the point of having winner's vote too.

Currently:
If a loser votes no: Nothing; normal rank gain and 10 electrum gained.
If a loser votes yes: Double rank gain and 20 electrum gained.

Effect of this:
Original decks that win are rewarded a lot.
Unoriginal decks that win are rewarded.
Original decks that lose and unoriginal decks that lose are the same.

But if it were made so winner's vote too...
If a winner votes no: Nothing; normal rank loss and 0 electrum gained.
 If a winner votes yes: Half rank loss and 2 electrum gained.

Thus...
Original decks that win are rewarded a lot.
 Unoriginal decks that win are rewarded.
 Original decks that lose are punished a little bit.
Unoriginal decks that lose are punished.

Keep in mind gaining two electrum is still a punishment when compared to gaining ten.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on December 01, 2011, 08:24:13 pm
Patience, my son. Shard of Patience, that is.

The remaining shards will be released in the next version, I believe. It could take weeks or months before they become available (they'll probably start appearing on the In Development page fairly soonish though).
But hmm... I don't understand this. Why we haven't more and often new cards? Section "Card Ideas and Art" is full of fantastic new cards. I know that some of them are OP, unbalanced etc. But a lot of them are fantastic. It is online game, and there is no problem to putting often new cards. We should have new card every week. Now game is boring... Especially for players, which don't speak English and didn't use board. What is more, we still have better elements ( :fire :entropy :darkness and  :rainbow) than rest (:earth :air :light :water)

I know, the biggest problem is probably with coding in AI games, because only one person do it. Ok, but I don't want to tell that all cards must have new ability. We can put a lot of new cards with simple and knowing abilities.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ralouf on December 01, 2011, 08:28:48 pm
IMO Puppy got a really good point here. I will not repeat what he said because it's complete but I like the idea.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: RRQJ on December 01, 2011, 11:44:36 pm
Patience, my son. Shard of Patience, that is.

The remaining shards will be released in the next version, I believe. It could take weeks or months before they become available (they'll probably start appearing on the In Development page fairly soonish though).
But hmm... I don't understand this. Why we haven't more and often new cards? Section "Card Ideas and Art" is full of fantastic new cards. I know that some of them are OP, unbalanced etc. But a lot of them are fantastic. It is online game, and there is no problem to putting often new cards. We should have new card every week. Now game is boring... Especially for players, which don't speak English and didn't use board. What is more, we still have better elements ( :fire :entropy :darkness and  :rainbow) than rest (:earth :air :light :water)

I know, the biggest problem is probably with coding in AI games, because only one person do it. Ok, but I don't want to tell that all cards must have new ability. We can put a lot of new cards with simple and knowing abilities.
First of all, there is exactly one person working on the game.  And I'm pretty sure elementsthegame is not his job, just a side project.  Second, coding is way more difficult and annoying than you're making it out to be.  Those "simple" abilities are not so simple to make work correctly without bugs, glitches, etc. happening.  Unless you're saying to make a card that's basically identical to something already in the game, in which case I ask, how would that make things less boring?  In fact, that would make things more boring since now all the elements can do the same thing.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on December 02, 2011, 09:13:05 am
Patience, my son. Shard of Patience, that is.

The remaining shards will be released in the next version, I believe. It could take weeks or months before they become available (they'll probably start appearing on the In Development page fairly soonish though).
But hmm... I don't understand this. Why we haven't more and often new cards? Section "Card Ideas and Art" is full of fantastic new cards. I know that some of them are OP, unbalanced etc. But a lot of them are fantastic. It is online game, and there is no problem to putting often new cards. We should have new card every week. Now game is boring... Especially for players, which don't speak English and didn't use board. What is more, we still have better elements ( :fire :entropy :darkness and  :rainbow) than rest (:earth :air :light :water)

I know, the biggest problem is probably with coding in AI games, because only one person do it. Ok, but I don't want to tell that all cards must have new ability. We can put a lot of new cards with simple and knowing abilities.
First of all, there is exactly one person working on the game.  And I'm pretty sure elementsthegame is not his job, just a side project.  Second, coding is way more difficult and annoying than you're making it out to be.  Those "simple" abilities are not so simple to make work correctly without bugs, glitches, etc. happening.  Unless you're saying to make a card that's basically identical to something already in the game, in which case I ask, how would that make things less boring?  In fact, that would make things more boring since now all the elements can do the same thing.
I don't have a grudge against Zanz, because he made perfect work here. I think that AI works nearly perfectly. But this game has got bigger potential. Look on Tournaments, only 30-50 people play every Saturday. We need more cards, quests, helping for weaker players (maybe actions for them like sale for them on Christmas?). This game can be more popular than is today.
Look at Arena. We have 90% games with: Fire Lances, Lava Golems, GoP + Nightmare, DimShields spam, Poison+SoS, Rush Life, Graboids, BlackHole spam every turn, and Rainbow with SuperNova. That is all tactics in game. When I see Mark and Towers I know in 90% what this deck will do, so we haven't got any kind of suprise in game. We need more innovations, more good idea decks and new cards. Personally I think that it is unfair, when some elements has got PC and CC and other hasn't got both. Darkness has got also healing (Drain Life, Vampire, VS). Why we promote only 3-4 elements?
I don't think that giving for element X normal creature (without skill) for example 8/2 or X/6 (when X is number of card in hand or other factor) make game more boring.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: rosutosefi on December 02, 2011, 09:32:38 am
Wall of text
First of all, there is exactly one person working on the game.
Seriously, we can't demand that all those things will be done in a short period of time. Have you ever tried programming a game, even a really simple one? It's hard to do alone. In arena, that's currently being somewhat fixed through rating, and some game balancing will slowly tone that down and allow more decks variety in the meta. And I disagree on the part where AI works nearly perfectly. It's very efficient in terms of the number of checks that it has to do, but cannot compete very well against a human.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on December 02, 2011, 10:24:35 am
Wall of text
First of all, there is exactly one person working on the game.
Seriously, we can't demand that all those things will be done in a short period of time. Have you ever tried programming a game, even a really simple one? It's hard to do alone. In arena, that's currently being somewhat fixed through rating, and some game balancing will slowly tone that down and allow more decks variety in the meta. And I disagree on the part where AI works nearly perfectly. It's very efficient in terms of the number of checks that it has to do, but cannot compete very well against a human.
So maybe someone should help Zanz in programming, to make this game more popular and better. It would be fine to see more players, more strategies, more emotions and suprise. Card Ideas are worth to promote new cards. A lot of them can make game more interesting and unpredictable. It would be fine to see new tactics in Arena...
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Xenocidius on December 02, 2011, 10:26:45 am
I'm sure there are many people who would love to help Zanz develop the game; the problem is that he (presumably) doesn't want any help. Note that Elements is his portfolio project, so having another developer somewhat defeats the purpose of that.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Higurashi on December 02, 2011, 02:02:42 pm
Yep, it's important that it's his project if he wants to display it as his portfolio work. chriskang did some work on the AI autotargetting function, but as I see it nothing major can be done by an outsider.

Furthermore, Elements isn't run for profit. We don't have the servers to handle an explosion of player influx. Hell, they're unstable enough already.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Atico on December 02, 2011, 02:15:26 pm
the problem is that he (presumably) doesn't want any help. Note that Elements is his portfolio project, so having another developer somewhat defeats the purpose of that.
I didn't know this. I thought that problem is in money. So when he didn't want build up game with help then my opinion can be deleted ;) It will be good for game to giving more innovations and attractions... But ok, there was no discuss ;)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: petersenk on December 02, 2011, 07:37:06 pm
Elements needs to be rewritten completely anyway if it want's to be popular in the near future.
Flash is dying. And if elements doesn't run on mobile devices, other games will be played instead. Simple as that.

I'm not quite sure I'd still put much effort into this project. Creating a new, awesome game from scratch based on a better technology seems to be more fun (and will look good in a portfolio too).
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: JonathanCrazyJ on December 02, 2011, 08:19:28 pm
Elements needs to be rewritten completely anyway if it want's to be popular in the near future.
Flash is dying. And if elements doesn't run on mobile devices, other games will be played instead. Simple as that.

I'm not quite sure I'd still put much effort into this project. Creating a new, awesome game from scratch based on a better technology seems to be more fun (and will look good in a portfolio too).
Way to try convincing the developer to stop working on the game we play.

Zanz - great job, love the game.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Jenkar on December 02, 2011, 09:02:05 pm
Elements needs to be rewritten completely anyway if it want's to be popular in the near future.
Flash is dying. And if elements doesn't run on mobile devices, other games will be played instead. Simple as that.

I'm not quite sure I'd still put much effort into this project. Creating a new, awesome game from scratch based on a better technology seems to be more fun (and will look good in a portfolio too).
Weeeeell i wholeheartedly disagree with you. Many sites who use flash games as only topic receive a lot of views & use. If flash was becoming less interesting, there'd be a decrease in activity on those, which ain't happenning.

What most people don't seem to realise is that flash games are small, comfy games most of the time.
What people also don't seem to realise is that the aim of elements is not ''OMG THIS GAME IS SO GREAT I'M GONNA RECOMMEND IT TO MY FRIENDS OMG OMG OMG''. Just ''Hmm. Interesting.''

It's not meant to be popular, just meant to be.

TL;DR :
(http://i.imgur.com/i5MBT.jpg)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Polari on December 02, 2011, 09:23:30 pm
Flash isn't dying, but I agree the game could use a rewrite. You can't seriously think this game is well made from a technical perspective. Now whether this is a problem is subjective and like Jenkar said, it is what it is. Personally I can live with its faults as long as I avoid pvp and enjoy the game as a casual thing akin to Bejeweled or something, but in its current form there's no way I'd consider playing it competitively.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: sunyata on December 03, 2011, 11:20:08 am
Flash isn't dying, but I agree the game could use a rewrite. You can't seriously think this game is well made from a technical perspective. Now whether this is a problem is subjective and like Jenkar said, it is what it is. Personally I can live with its faults as long as I avoid pvp and enjoy the game as a casual thing akin to Bejeweled or something, but in its current form there's no way I'd consider playing it competitively.
There's a large community of elements players who disagree and think the game is great.  That doesn't mean there is not scope to improve it, but generalised comments like this are simply not helpful.  If you can identify specific problems or, even better, solutions to those problems, then you have something worth saying. Otherwise, bland generalisations are no better than hot air.

On the subject of Flash.  There are signs that adobe will cease to support the platform over time.  Whether an open-source project will fill that void or whether an alternative platform will emerge supreme remains to be seen.  For the moment, flash is a reasonable choice of platform and given the large amount of developer time that has been dedicated to it already for elements there's certainly no rush to change.  If elements is still to be around in 5 to 10 years, however, a change of platform might need to be considered if the demise of flash really transpires.  If that is the case, then offers of help to transport elements to a new platform will be much more useful and interesting than simple 'I wouldn't have done it on flash' type comments.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: TheManuz on December 03, 2011, 12:57:57 pm
Flash isn't dying, but I agree the game could use a rewrite. You can't seriously think this game is well made from a technical perspective. Now whether this is a problem is subjective and like Jenkar said, it is what it is. Personally I can live with its faults as long as I avoid pvp and enjoy the game as a casual thing akin to Bejeweled or something, but in its current form there's no way I'd consider playing it competitively.
There's a large community of elements players who disagree and think the game is great.  That doesn't mean there is not scope to improve it, but generalised comments like this are simply not helpful.  If you can identify specific problems or, even better, solutions to those problems, then you have something worth saying. Otherwise, bland generalisations are no better than hot air.

On the subject of Flash.  There are signs that adobe will cease to support the platform over time.  Whether an open-source project will fill that void or whether an alternative platform will emerge supreme remains to be seen.  For the moment, flash is a reasonable choice of platform and given the large amount of developer time that has been dedicated to it already for elements there's certainly no rush to change.  If elements is still to be around in 5 to 10 years, however, a change of platform might need to be considered if the demise of flash really transpires.  If that is the case, then offers of help to transport elements to a new platform will be much more useful and interesting than simple 'I wouldn't have done it on flash' type comments.
About Flash: i understood that Adobe is working to make Adobe Flash produce HTML5 files instead of SWF files. I'm not sure about that, but it seems reasonable that Adobe wouldn't let down a large community of people that makes games, flash animations, cartoons, etc.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Polari on December 03, 2011, 09:10:41 pm
Flash isn't dying, but I agree the game could use a rewrite. You can't seriously think this game is well made from a technical perspective. Now whether this is a problem is subjective and like Jenkar said, it is what it is. Personally I can live with its faults as long as I avoid pvp and enjoy the game as a casual thing akin to Bejeweled or something, but in its current form there's no way I'd consider playing it competitively.
There's a large community of elements players who disagree and think the game is great.  That doesn't mean there is not scope to improve it, but generalised comments like this are simply not helpful.  If you can identify specific problems or, even better, solutions to those problems, then you have something worth saying. Otherwise, bland generalisations are no better than hot air.

On the subject of Flash.  There are signs that adobe will cease to support the platform over time.  Whether an open-source project will fill that void or whether an alternative platform will emerge supreme remains to be seen.  For the moment, flash is a reasonable choice of platform and given the large amount of developer time that has been dedicated to it already for elements there's certainly no rush to change.  If elements is still to be around in 5 to 10 years, however, a change of platform might need to be considered if the demise of flash really transpires.  If that is the case, then offers of help to transport elements to a new platform will be much more useful and interesting than simple 'I wouldn't have done it on flash' type comments.
"There's a large community of elements players who disagree and think the game is great." Hurrrrrr durrrrrr. I specifically said "from a technically perspective" and even went on to say it's still an enjoyable game. Do you think it's "great", for example, that player vs player occasionally craps out and there's no way to tell whether there really was a glitch or if the opponent just decided to quit a losing game? Also you say "a large community of elements players" disagree, meaning they think it's a great game from a technical perspective - how can you be sure all of them really think that, and don't just like the game despite its problems?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: nerd1 on December 05, 2011, 11:19:14 pm
as long as flash is still a viable platform elements will be played, and as tablet and phone power increase  with just a little tweaking it would be playable from an android phone or tablet because they can run flash, so it is just a matter of computing power.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: silux on December 08, 2011, 11:27:55 pm
The thing which stops me more playing elements it's the slowness in general.
I have to wait at least ten seconds to modify my deck, and then almost one sec to add or subtract for every card.
In battles AI takes at least five seconds to make his choice, while i usually go in another tab to play another game and then i get back.
I'm sure this isn't Flash's fault, because i play it with a new and fast pc, and other games are faster than Elements
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Toxx on December 09, 2011, 12:20:11 am
The only thing that will stop me from playing elements is the lack of consistent updates, which this game has a  serious problem doing.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Violenceisanart on December 23, 2011, 11:59:56 pm
Just started playing around with Sose's and they're boss! lol Must have them upped though....they're great in rainbows. It's nice when Sose gives you the perfect card to use in a situation that you don't have the right card for....
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: burpcow on December 24, 2011, 08:18:50 am
Just started playing around with Sose's and they're boss! lol Must have them upped though....they're great in rainbows. It's nice when Sose gives you the perfect card to use in a situation that you don't have the right card for....
Yep, it's always nice when SoSe gives you purify when you have over twenty poison counters.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ralouf on December 24, 2011, 09:14:35 am
It never happened to me but yeah I guess that must be good to have the good card when you need it. in few case I had hope to get some Antimatter because you're sure to get an entropy card but it never happened though. Still I remember some case when I had pandly it was quite helpfull
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Sevs on January 21, 2012, 02:25:07 am
In the new PvP system when you get an EM, what is the extra reward bonus, cause i dont think it doubles?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: mesaprotector on January 21, 2012, 02:28:18 am
Seems to be about 150 for a normal win in PvP2 and 200 for an EM win.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Sevs on January 21, 2012, 05:22:02 am
Seems to be about 150 for a normal win in PvP2 and 200 for an EM win.
Yea maybe it a +30-50 bonus or so cause i've been getting ~170-180 for EM wins and ~140-150 for normal wins and it varies based on the score difference.

I just figured it would be double for EM wins.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: ralouf on January 21, 2012, 08:20:06 am
also in pvp 1 it is 90 for a normal win and 110/130 for an EM iirc
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: teffy on January 21, 2012, 10:12:11 am
Ask our wiki  (http://elementscommunity.org/wiki/articles/secret-of-electrum-and-score-gaining/)
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Polari on January 21, 2012, 11:40:49 am
Speaking of EMs, you might want to fix being able to end the game above your max health and not getting EM bonus for that.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: zanzarino on March 13, 2012, 02:58:11 am
Base money gain from arena increased to:
Bronze:4
Silver:6
Gold:9
Platinum:12

Effect immediate.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: UTAlan on March 13, 2012, 04:31:46 am
Base money gain from arena increased to:
Bronze:4
Silver:6
Gold:9
Platinum:12

Effect immediate.
I highly approve.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: Rutarete on March 13, 2012, 04:54:23 am
Looking back after a while: 79 pages, so many posts, 46k+ views, this really was a big patch
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: furballdn on March 14, 2012, 12:30:58 am
Base money gain from arena increased to:
Bronze:4
Silver:6
Gold:9
Platinum:12

Effect immediate.
What were they before?
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: teffy on March 14, 2012, 12:37:25 am
Look here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,31811.0.html)
2/3/5/10.
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: furballdn on March 14, 2012, 12:42:57 am
Oh. Money your arena deck makes. That makes sense. I was thinking of something else. I approve!
Title: Re: Elements 1.29
Post by: bogtro on March 19, 2012, 10:23:38 pm
It is still the same multipliers for high ranks?
blarg: Xenocidius,Rember,pikachufan2164,redium,bored_ninja777,veemon293,dragonsdemesne,astraldragoon,moomoose,Post,Chapuz,furballdn