Elements 1.29

[Higurashi]

Keep the discussion civil, please.

[Elite arbiter]

I think the argument being made is that the health being 'vamped' has to travel from the opponent to you, and that the hp can't get to you in time.

[OldTrees]

This is actually good.  The game should be over instantly, the moment someone hits 0 hp, before any other effect happens.

The healing effect of vampiric is NOT some other effect. It's one and the same: it takes away health from A and directs it to B all in one go.
Stop talking out of your ass, dear sir

No. It is a sequential effect in the coding. First the damage is dealt then the healing is delivered. These are separate actions in the code.*

*Actually it is more than just two actions but those are the only actions that are directly relevant.

[ZephyrPhantom]

When a creature with vampire attacks for lethal damage, it now ends the game before adding the health that is gained from that creature's attack to your health total. I found this out when it cost me an elemental mastery. I'm not sure if this is an intended consequence, but it's obscure enough to post.

Yeah, this made me sad.. 
Though I understand that this "change" is to fix few bugs (e.g. Anti-poison), I really hope that zanz could change this. EM is already quite hard to obtain and with this change, I feel that it would kill most if not all EM decks especially the fun EM decks like vampiric chimera.

I also feel this change is somewhat annoying for EM purposes, IMHO. It's difficult to time permanent healing so that your weapon deals the killing blow if you're not planning ahead. InstaHealing spells are nice, but can only be found in 3 elements (     , although only darkness gets nerfed due to this) Overall, making electrum has become slower, though this could be justified if players were making too much Electrum from vampire decks. (Though that doesn't seem to be the case.)

I dont think its bad. Gives the incentive to use heal and / if you want your EMs.

It's nice that Light and Life get more emphasis on their healing, but the change does slow down a few grinder decks' income such as Vader Saders. Said decks usually are best vs. AI3 or are stalls (forgive me if I'm wrong), and while it doesn't affect the actual game, it does slow down a (usually lower level) player's ability to gain Electrum. 

Note that most of said decks also are  based, so overall it may fix a few bugs, but it also hurts newer Darkness players a bit, intentionally or not.

It's not bad.  The only deck this affects is the instatosis deck if you use a liquid shadow to get an EM after being brought down to like 20 hp or something.  This is actually good.  The game should be over instantly, the moment someone hits 0 hp, before any other effect happens.

Thematically you could argue that Life Transfer occurs at the same time Life Drain does (It's the same energy, no? You're just transferring it from one "container" to another), so it could be fair to have healing occur before damage. And as I mentioned above, this deck affects more decks than just Instatosis.

People are always saying decks are being ruined.  Well they are dead wrong.  The thing you must do now is try out different strategies possibly changing some cards up if you want the exact same effect your deck had before.  The decks can be played with the same cards as before, you just need to play differently.  If you change cards, your strategy will change.

Some decks are actually ruined, but most of these decks revolved around certain buggy or powerful concepts (Firestall, Cloak-based Anti-FG decks, Old Sundial decks, etc...)  Chances are if it wasn't an AI screwup, altered decks may still function well with a few changes that don't affect the strategy of the deck, rather just the amount of cards. (It's still possible to make a good Firestall - they're just not metagame-breaking anymore).

tl;dr version : To sum it all up, Vampiric decks aren't actually "ruined" in this case - it's more a matter of how quickly Zanz wants players to gain electrum, IMO.
Was the current amount of being gained from Vampire EMs sufficiently gamebreaking? That's up to interpretation, since it affects something outside the actual battle, and the fact you're trying to balance the whole thing against a bug.

Just my 2 cents.

[willng3]

I suspect that the interaction between Vampire and EMing the opponent is related to the Antimatter Poison bug now being fixed.  I'm not sure if it's intended, but before anyone jumps to any conclusions about zanz just wanting to nerf Darkness EM decks, keep that in mind.

[FlareGlutox]

I suspect that the interaction between Vampire and EMing the opponent is related to the Antimatter Poison bug now being fixed.  I'm not sure if it's intended, but before anyone jumps to any conclusions about zanz just wanting to nerf Darkness EM decks, keep that in mind.

And I thought that to be obvious  .

Nah, nevertheless it's probably good to remind people of this.

[petersenk]

No. It is a sequential effect in the coding. First the damage is dealt then the healing is delivered. These are separate actions in the code.*

Well, obviously it's coded that way (for whatever reason... smells like bad design that needs to be refactored...). That's why it's broken now. But in the game(-world) itself beeing vampiric is clearly defined: it's not a one-directional thing. It is bidirectional, so we may aswell swap the argument: if you don't get healed, you couldn't and haven't done any damage. Doing damage and healing yourself is one and the same; thats the very definition of "vampirism". 

[zanzarino]

1.293:
Simply removed the "details" page and merged it with the "you lost" page.

P.S. : In a computer program things never happen "at the same time".

Either

<New version>
1. deal damage
2. win

or

<Old version>
1. deal damage
2. heal
3. win

1. deal damage & heal
2. win

Is not an option.

[Xenocidius]

1.293:
Simply removed the "details" and merged it with the "you lost" page.

Ooh, nice.

What about all the bugs associated with the instant death though?

[OldTrees]

No. It is a sequential effect in the coding. First the damage is dealt then the healing is delivered. These are separate actions in the code.*

Well, obviously it's coded that way (for whatever reason... smells like bad design that needs to be refactored...). That's why it's broken now. But in the game(-world) itself beeing vampiric is clearly defined: it's not a one-directional thing. It is bidirectional, so we may aswell swap the argument: if you don't get healed, you couldn't and haven't done any damage. Doing damage and healing yourself is one and the same; thats the very definition of "vampirism".

So Vampire should heal itself and not you? The Keyword "Vampire" is a descriptive term used to approximate the effect Zanz intended.

[Rember]

Would letting HP go negative work? Giving a loss if it happened at any point after healing/damage takes effect. Or only at the end of the turn, antimatter bug wouldn't matter much since more than enough overkill takes effect in most cases.

[petersenk]

P.S. : In a computer program things never happen "at the same time".

I'm pretty sure I've got more than one core over here, happily crunching some numbers - at the same time...

1. deal damage & heal
2. win

Is not an option.

There should be simply no other action between the damage- and the heal-action from "vampirism", making them atomic in nature. First damage is applied, and whatever that damage amounted to is the amount the player gets healed instantly. Then the program may happily proceed (and maybe win the game...).

It doesn't make much sense that the vampiric healing effect get's queued and then that queue doesn't get processed anymore in case you've already won. Rules need to be simple and consistent.