Elements 1.29

[OldTrees]

In my opinion, it must change both player's damage and heal:
common vamp attak: attak oponent and heal you for that damage
with SoS: heal oponent the amount of damage he would be taken and that's the damage you take.

I see that it might be wise if I lay out both possible options.

Option 1: Vampire happens before SoS (status quo)

Your Vampire attacks

	They don't have SoS	They have SoS
You don't have SoS	You heal, They take damage	You heal, They heal
You have SoS	You take damage, They take damage	You take damage, They heal

Option 2: SoS happens before Vampire

Your Vampire attacks

	They don't have SoS	They have SoS
You don't have SoS	You heal, They take damage	You take damage, They heal
You have SoS	You heal, They take damage	You take damage, They heal

In my opinion, option 1 makes more sense because both SoS are able to effect the same attack. In option 2 your SoS does not matter because it missed its turn before Vampire triggered.

[suxerz]

..snip

Order is important for players too. However it is something that is more interesting to the players that want to know the rules of the game they are playing.
Imagine you had a Guardian Angel targeted both by the Lightning spell and Heal ability. Is its current hp 1 or 6? This depends on which happens first.

Vampire: "The damage dealt is returned to you as healing."
SoS: Swap Damage [to you] with Healing [to you]. [The to you is implied by the condition only affecting one player]

If SoS triggers before Vampire then your interpretation is correct.
Creature attacks, damage is swapped with healing, Vampire returns healing as damage
If Vampire triggers before SoS then your interpretation is incorrect.
Creature attacks, Vampire returns damage as healing, damage is swapped with healing

The second case occurs, therefore SoS triggers after Vampire has passed on the healing.

Event Sequence	Controller of Vampire	Controller of SoS
Attack	nothing	Damage
Vampire	Healing	Damage
SoS	Healing	Healing

Ugh.. I have to admit that your post make this even more confusing, Oldtree. Since I'm not entirely sure I get what you are saying, pardon me if this make little sense to you.

Referring to the highlighted sentence above, does this mean you believe the part "swap damage with healing" works on both fields?
If yes, wouldn't that means if I have SoS active, the damage from my own creatures, spells, etc will be inverted to heal to my opponent even he doesn't have SoS (which is clearly not happening now)?

If no, I might be missing something here since how can the opponent's vampire inflict damage to its owner without AM? I'm not being critical; it's just frustrating to me that I couldn't understand that particular point. 

[OldTrees]

@Suxerz
No.

Vampire returns damage/healing as healing/damage. If the Vampire effect would occur after the SoS effect then the Vampire would have healed the opponent (who had the SoS) and thus would pass back damage to the controller. However SoS triggers after Vampire instead of before it. This leads to the second case where the creature deals damage, vampire returns healing and then SoS (controlled by the defending player) triggers to swap the damage for healing.

[Sewdri]

if what you guys are talking about is supposed to apply to creatures with the vampire ability, would it also apply to Siphon Life??? and my other question is that if you are playing your hand and then end your turn, how would the opponent activate the SoS before your vampires had finished attacking? it seems like it would be that these effects would only occur if the opponent had already played the SoS and never the other way around... in my opinion i think that an attacking vampire going against an opponent with a SoS already in play should have the same effect as a vampire that has been hit with antimatter, thus inverting the healing and damage for both players (damaging the owner and healing the opponent... now if an antimattered vampire attacked a player with a SoS out would it do damage??? i can't figure it out because my mind is all confused)

[OldTrees]

if what you guys are talking about is supposed to apply to creatures with the vampire ability, would it also apply to Siphon Life??? and my other question is that if you are playing your hand and then end your turn, how would the opponent activate the SoS before your vampires had finished attacking? it seems like it would be that these effects would only occur if the opponent had already played the SoS and never the other way around... in my opinion i think that an attacking vampire going against an opponent with a SoS already in play should have the same effect as a vampire that has been hit with antimatter, thus inverting the healing and damage for both players (damaging the owner and healing the opponent... now if an antimattered vampire attacked a player with a SoS out would it do damage??? i can't figure it out because my mind is all confused)

I was talking about the timing/layering of the effects that were triggered by the combat phase. Both Vampire and SoS were already in play however (as the game is now) during the combat the Vampire effect is triggered and resolved before the SoS effect is triggered and resolved.

As the game is now (and how it should stay IMO), The creature attacks, then vampire skill returns healing and finally SoS swaps the damage that would have been dealt for healing. (aka both players heal)
An antimatter'd Vampire would cause both players to take damage. The creature attacks, then vampire skill returns damage and finally SoS swaps the healing that would have been dealt for damage. (aka both players are damaged)

[mwely]

This stuff actually looks really cool.

[Sewdri]

ah ok oldtrees, it's confusing but now i understand... i think that's a good way to deal with the healing/damage confusion also so that when someone is playing they don't get confused

[Hyroen]

Love, love, loving the new backgrounds!

I still think Air backgrounds need a little more loving. Maybe clouds?

[Aves]

Much better!

[Elite arbiter]

I read the majority of the thread and tried the beta 1.29, but since i couldn't find any comment on it and also that I cannot use SoS in the beta as well as hearing that it stacks akin to purify and poison, can I ask something based on the text of the cards?


If you use another SoS to stack upon the first, wouldn't the "cost" also be reversed? As in, playing a second while the first is in effect doesn't actually hurt you but heals you more just incase you didn't get enough. Personally I support the reducing your max hp concept, as well as a coding of it that would force it to lower your hp regardless of whether you actually have it on you or not. Can probably be done by throwing a little bit into the code to exclude SoS from its own reversal.

I love the new death color though although I appear to be alone on this. Not sure how I feel about some of the others, like dark for instance.

[rosutosefi]

The cost won't be reversed.
They are available from the bazaar.

[Bhlewos]

Just in case it helps with comparisons, here are the old and new card backgrounds side by side. It's not perfect since I used images from the card maker rather than the actual backgrounds, but hope it helps.

OLD	NEW