Elements 1.29

[teffy]

When zanz talked about that in chat , SoS should set the HP to 1 as it´s still written on the development page. Miracle in beta trainer sets HP to max-1, and I guess it´s intended. But it´s good to mention it , here.

[ddevans96]

I'm still not sure about Shard of Sacrifice; the incoming healing from the opponent is still probably enough to heal you up fully anyway. Maybe this is being approached the wrong way? How about something like:



The benefit to is more subtle, and it's less OP.

I would totally support this.

[BluePriest]

miracle still heals someone using SoS. This is a bug, right?

Erk... I could swear it was the other way around yesterday, but probably I missed Miracle. Anyways, I've just tested it again with other healing methods namely Holy Flash, Granite Skin, SoDs, SoGs, Drain Life and of course Miracle. All inflict damage respectively except Miracle.

I'm pretty sure it's a bug, but... who knows? Zanz, reply pl0x >.<

Miracle doesn't actually heal. Instead, it just sets HP at max minus 1. If it's supposed to hurt you under SoS, it's merely unintended behaviour.

Your Vampire + Your SoS = You take damage, they take damage
Their Vampire + Your SoS = You heal, they heal

Reason:
Vampire deals damage and heals controller, then SoS inverts the damage/healing. Since SoS happens after Vampire it only inverts one of the values.

Antimatter inverts the Attack thus Vampire happens second causing a second inverted value.

Order: Antimatter, Shield, Attack, Vampire, SoS

Im tired of people talking from a developer standpoint, and not a player standpoint. I am a player, not a developer. I dont care how the mechanics work, all I care about it what the cards say they will do. Nothing more, nothing less. If a card says it is going to do something, then it should do it, even if thats not "mechanically" how the game handles it. I understand mechanically how it is working, but that doesnt mean its working properly, even if Zanz says it is intended.

To put it simple though....

healing and damage is swapped. A vampire attacks, it heals instead, which should drain damage the vampire player.


HEAL is the key word. I honestly dont care mechanically how ANY card works if it differentiates from what the card SAYS.

It is great to have such a dedicated fanbase, and dont get me wrong, I have defended trying out cards to understand how they work, HOWEVER, if a card SPECIFICALLY SAYS one thing, and DOESNT DO IT, then there is a problem. Intended behavior will seem like a bug. Vampire I can sort of understand (despite its inconsistency), but there is no excuse for miracle to still heal. Im hoping that it truely is just a bug, and not intended behavior.

OH MY GOSH I STILL GOT HEALED ITS A MIRACLE!!!

[Higurashi]

That's why I said unintended behaviour. At no point do I talk from the developer's standpoint. What I do is look at the mechanics for an explanation as to why it may be unintended. Nice unwarranted aggressiveness though.

[BluePriest]

That's why I said unintended behaviour. At no point do I talk from the developer's standpoint. What I do is look at the mechanics for an explanation as to why it may be unintended. Nice unwarranted aggressiveness though.

Miracle doesn't actually heal. Instead, it just sets HP at max minus 1. If it's supposed to hurt you under SoS, it's merely unintended behaviour.

If is the key word, which means you dont state that its unintended behavior. Instead you stated the mechanic, and ignored the cards wording in the process by saying it doesnt heal.____________

By the way, not to derail the discussion or anything but, have you seen the code, and therefor know it doesnt heal, or are you just assuming so by it not being effected here? This isnt a sarcasm attempt, as I am actually wondering if the coding is simply setting the currentHP to maxHP-1 or if it is actually doing the math and adding the difference between currentHP and the maxHP-1).

[Higurashi]

Hence "may be unintended". You are really not listening here, and your confirmation bias makes you think people are saying things they aren't. This results in two useless and immature posts that derail the thread, so it would be good to close the issue here and take it elsewhere if you wish.
Yes, I've looked at the pseudo-code, and this is far from the first example where its actual effect makes a difference as opposed to healing.

[suxerz]

@Higs - Yeah, that's probably it. I said it's a bug particularly because what zanz said in chat few months ago as pointed out by pika. Though I really hope zanz will change this.

...snip..
healing and damage is swapped. A vampire attacks, it heals instead, which should drain damage the vampire player.

I'm assuming that you are talking about the interaction between opponent's vampire (or any opponent's creature that has been LS'd) while you have SoS active.

I don't quite understand why do you think it should damage the opponent as well. The only way it should happen is by an AM'd vampire. Though it may seem like SoS is a mass-AM spell, it is not. It only affects the damage or heal done to you. Whatever happens on the opponent side will act as normal. Also, your own vampire will still deal damage to the opponent AND inflict damage to you (from the vampiric ability) as the card says.

On the other hand, I began to feel the card's text needs rewording. Particularly on clarifying that it only affects the damage or heal done to you; but some cards already have these "hidden" mechanics, so... probably not. 

[RRQJ]

yeah, like suxerz said, if you think vampire should drain damage the opponent when it attacks you while you have SoS, then you 'll need to explain what happens if you had the vampire with SoS active.  And I'm sure you'll find that it makes no sense for either player to heal in that case.

[OldTrees]

Your Vampire + Your SoS = You take damage, they take damage
Their Vampire + Your SoS = You heal, they heal

Reason:
Vampire deals damage and heals controller, then SoS inverts the damage/healing. Since SoS happens after Vampire it only inverts one of the values.

Antimatter inverts the Attack thus Vampire happens second causing a second inverted value.

Order: Antimatter, Shield, Attack, Vampire, SoS

Im tired of people talking from a developer standpoint, and not a player standpoint. I am a player, not a developer. I dont care how the mechanics work, all I care about it what the cards say they will do. Nothing more, nothing less. If a card says it is going to do something, then it should do it, even if thats not "mechanically" how the game handles it. I understand mechanically how it is working, but that doesnt mean its working properly, even if Zanz says it is intended.

To put it simple though....

healing and damage is swapped. A vampire attacks, it heals instead, which should drain damage the vampire player.

Order is important for players too. However it is something that is more interesting to the players that want to know the rules of the game they are playing.
Imagine you had a Guardian Angel targeted both by the Lightning spell and Heal ability. Is its current hp 1 or 6? This depends on which happens first.

Vampire: "The damage dealt is returned to you as healing."
SoS: Swap Damage [to you] with Healing [to you]. [The to you is implied by the condition only affecting one player]

If SoS triggers before Vampire then your interpretation is correct.
Creature attacks, damage is swapped with healing, Vampire returns healing as damage
If Vampire triggers before SoS then your interpretation is incorrect.
Creature attacks, Vampire returns damage as healing, damage is swapped with healing

The second case occurs, therefore SoS triggers after Vampire has passed on the healing.

Event Sequence	Controller of Vampire	Controller of SoS
Attack	nothing	Damage
Vampire	Healing	Damage
SoS	Healing	Healing

[russianspy1234]

miracle still heals someone using SoS. This is a bug, right?

Erk... I could swear it was the other way around yesterday, but probably I missed Miracle. Anyways, I've just tested it again with other healing methods namely Holy Flash, Granite Skin, SoDs, SoGs, Drain Life and of course Miracle. All inflict damage respectively except Miracle.

I'm pretty sure it's a bug, but... who knows? Zanz, reply pl0x >.<

Miracle doesn't actually heal. Instead, it just sets HP at max minus 1. If it's supposed to hurt you under SoS, it's merely unintended behaviour.

Your Vampire + Your SoS = You take damage, they take damage
Their Vampire + Your SoS = You heal, they heal

Reason:
Vampire deals damage and heals controller, then SoS inverts the damage/healing. Since SoS happens after Vampire it only inverts one of the values.

Antimatter inverts the Attack thus Vampire happens second causing a second inverted value.

Order: Antimatter, Shield, Attack, Vampire, SoS

Im tired of people talking from a developer standpoint, and not a player standpoint. I am a player, not a developer. I dont care how the mechanics work, all I care about it what the cards say they will do. Nothing more, nothing less. If a card says it is going to do something, then it should do it, even if thats not "mechanically" how the game handles it. I understand mechanically how it is working, but that doesnt mean its working properly, even if Zanz says it is intended.

To put it simple though....

healing and damage is swapped. A vampire attacks, it heals instead, which should drain damage the vampire player.


HEAL is the key word. I honestly dont care mechanically how ANY card works if it differentiates from what the card SAYS.

It is great to have such a dedicated fanbase, and dont get me wrong, I have defended trying out cards to understand how they work, HOWEVER, if a card SPECIFICALLY SAYS one thing, and DOESNT DO IT, then there is a problem. Intended behavior will seem like a bug. Vampire I can sort of understand (despite its inconsistency), but there is no excuse for miracle to still heal. Im hoping that it truely is just a bug, and not intended behavior.

OH MY GOSH I STILL GOT HEALED ITS A MIRACLE!!!

EtG is not a game for card literalists the way other games are.  Cards often do something other than exactly what they say.  Bonewall and Morningstar immediately come to mind.

[Chapuz]

Your Vampire + Your SoS = You take damage, they take damage
Their Vampire + Your SoS = You heal, they heal

Reason:
Vampire deals damage and heals controller, then SoS inverts the damage/healing. Since SoS happens after Vampire it only inverts one of the values.

Antimatter inverts the Attack thus Vampire happens second causing a second inverted value.

Order: Antimatter, Shield, Attack, Vampire, SoS

Im tired of people talking from a developer standpoint, and not a player standpoint. I am a player, not a developer. I dont care how the mechanics work, all I care about it what the cards say they will do. Nothing more, nothing less. If a card says it is going to do something, then it should do it, even if thats not "mechanically" how the game handles it. I understand mechanically how it is working, but that doesnt mean its working properly, even if Zanz says it is intended.

To put it simple though....

healing and damage is swapped. A vampire attacks, it heals instead, which should drain damage the vampire player.

Order is important for players too. However it is something that is more interesting to the players that want to know the rules of the game they are playing.
Imagine you had a Guardian Angel targeted both by the Lightning spell and Heal ability. Is its current hp 1 or 6? This depends on which happens first.

Vampire: "The damage dealt is returned to you as healing."
SoS: Swap Damage with Healing

If SoS triggers before Vampire then your interpretation is correct.
Creature attacks, damage is swapped with healing, Vampire returns healing as damage
If Vampire triggers before SoS then your interpretation is incorrect.
Creature attacks, Vampire returns damage as healing, damage is swapped with healing

The second case occurs, therefore SoS triggers after Vampire has passed on the healing.

Event Sequence	Controller of Vampire	Controller of SoS
Attack	nothing	Damage
Vampire	Healing	Damage
SoS	Healing	Healing

That's a crazy and wise philosopher's discution xD

In my opinion, it must change both player's damage and heal:
common vamp attak: attak oponent and heal you for that damage
with SoS: heal oponent the amount of damage he would be taken and that's the damage you take.

[RRQJ]

In my opinion, it must change both player's damage and heal:
common vamp attak: attak oponent and heal you for that damage
with SoS: heal oponent the amount of damage he would be taken and that's the damage you take.

Explain what should happen then if you had both the SoS and the vampire on your side of the field and they had nothing.