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Offline Essence

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Re: Elements 1.17 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1775.msg18048#msg18048
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2010, 11:05:12 pm »
I have to say, i'm not a fan of the change in Otyugh pricing.  I think it was just fine where it was.

Basically, I want to be sure that it's not going up because it's popular -- popular =!= imbalanced.
If something happens and you think it deserves my attention, feel free to PM me. Other than that, I'm probably here if you want to shoot the breeze.

Offline vrt

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Re: Elements 1.17 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1775.msg18056#msg18056
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2010, 11:16:55 pm »
Just noticed this:

My opponent has a 3|3 immortal creature with a adrenaline and an upgraded boneyard. I have a fireshield.


The created skeleton is a 2|1 creature (read: It took one damage). Shouldn't be like this, methinks. :)
So long and thanks for all the fish!

Offline jmizzle7

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Re: Elements 1.17 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1775.msg18069#msg18069
« Reply #62 on: January 16, 2010, 01:15:02 am »
Just noticed this:

My opponent has a 3|3 immortal creature with a adrenaline and an upgraded boneyard. I have a fireshield. The created skeleton is a 2|1 creature (read: It took one damage). Shouldn't be like this, methinks. :)
Creatures generated during combat will act as long as their position is greater than or equal to the trigger position. In the case above, your opponent's creature died and a skeleton was spawned in its place. Because the skeleton's position was equal to the dead creature's position, it acted and took one damage from your Fire Shield.

Another example is with Malignant Cells. When a Malignant Cell creates another, the new one gets to attack as well, provided its position is after the one that created it.

Offline Amilir

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Re: Elements 1.17 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1775.msg18070#msg18070
« Reply #63 on: January 16, 2010, 01:27:46 am »
I have to say, i'm not a fan of the change in Otyugh pricing.  I think it was just fine where it was.

Basically, I want to be sure that it's not going up because it's popular -- popular =!= imbalanced.
Find the number of creatures that can kill another.  A flying weapon, a very lucky elf, a mostly useless beetle, infectors, and otyugh.

Owl's eye is an expensive weapon, fallen elf generally doesn't kill, scarab needs buffs to be much use, toadfish/parasite require two quanta types while virus has to kill itself, and infect takes time to kill.

It can kill another creature cheaply with only one quanta type.  Unupgraded might be okay at three, but upgraded really was too strong.  I like this change.

Fireshield I'm still debating on, but I think I like it.

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Re: Elements 1.17 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1775.msg18071#msg18071
« Reply #64 on: January 16, 2010, 01:39:22 am »
I may have missed this somewhere, but does a fireshield now hit an immortal creature?

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Re: Elements 1.17 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1775.msg18079#msg18079
« Reply #65 on: January 16, 2010, 02:26:59 am »
That's what it says. It's kind of beta gone live prematurely though, so it's not definitive.

Offline Bloodshadow

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Re: Elements 1.17 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1775.msg18088#msg18088
« Reply #66 on: January 16, 2010, 03:49:37 am »
What? Immortal creatures can now be damaged?!

I strongly vote against this! There should not be ANY ways in which Immortal creatures can be removed!
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

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Re: Elements 1.17 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1775.msg18092#msg18092
« Reply #67 on: January 16, 2010, 04:46:03 am »
I dunno, Quintessence is kinda getting out of hand.  Or maybe it's just me...

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Re: Elements 1.17 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1775.msg18096#msg18096
« Reply #68 on: January 16, 2010, 05:50:22 am »
Ok, I don't particularly like the firewall affecting immortals. At all.

First off, they are IMMORTAL.
Pronunciation: \(ˌ)i-ˈmȯr-təl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin immortalis, from in- + mortalis mortal
Date: 14th century
1 : exempt from death

If we choose to ignore the definition of immortality, then we get into "Why only firewall?" I suppose the logic behind the firewall effect is that the immortals do have to face the shield in order to do damage, but in that case then it's completely arbitrary just to allow for firewall's effect to go through. EVERY shield effect (not just damage deduction) should affect immortals as well, so permafrost shield's freezing chance, fog shield's chance to miss, weight shield, procrastination, etc. Which would completely kill half the reason behind immortality in the first place.

And if immortals DO get affected by shields, firewall should be one of the shield effects that does NOT affect immortals. By being "exempt from death" they should not be able to take damage. However, an immortal can certainly miss an opponent or get locked into a time bubble or get frozen from a shield, so long as they don't get hurt/die. I think that, though a bit more complex, would provide the balance you're looking for?

Having shield effects affect burrowing creatures makes more sense realistically, because they are still mortal so can take damage. However, I think a shield's effects must be either entirely considered, or entirely ignored. At the moment, burrowed creatures still have their damage reduced by a shield, which implies they're hitting the shield and thus they should be hit by shield effects as well. On the other hand, if they're ignoring the shield's effect by being burrowed, then they are effectively burrowing under the shield to strike the player directly, and thus should not have their damage reduced. I think it only makes sense to go one way or the other, not halfway in between. I do realize ignoring shield effects effectively gives a burrowed creature momentum, but they lose half their attack by burrowing so I don't think that's too OP...?

It should be noted that Immortals should definitely be effected by a shield's damage reduction, though. That fact should not change.

Edit:
After a little further consideration, I do like the idea that burrowed/immortal creatures get hit by shield effects (exempting damage causing effects for immortals). It adds an interesting dynamic to the game because you can't congeal that elite otyugh, but your permafrost shield might freeze it. Your shield's really do shield you a lot!

Thinking along the lines of bobcamel's definition of the fourth dimension the immortal creature slips into, though, then shouldn't it completely ignore shield effects as well? Just slip out of the dimension behind the shield, hit the player, and disappear again?

Offline Bloodshadow

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Re: Elements 1.17 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1775.msg18098#msg18098
« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2010, 06:41:50 am »
Yes, I will also use Bobcamel's definition. Immaterial creatures shift to another phase so they cannot be touched. Fire Shield's effect will just pass right through it.

But, if that is true, then creatures in another phase must ignore gravity as well. Think about it: if you're in another phase, you will pass through any solid matter; if you're still affected by gravity, then you will be falling right into the Earth's core. To avoid this problem, the only solution is that you're not affected by gravity. Simply making the bottom of your feet tangible will not work, since if the rest of your body is in the other phase, then the bottom of your feet will be separated from the rest of your body like it had been sliced off by a knife.
If this logic applies, then Immortal creatures cannot be affected by gravity shield.

But... To attack your opponent, your creatures must make themselves tangible before hitting them. So that way, all shield effects should probably apply...
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

AiBerry

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Re: Elements 1.17 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1775.msg18101#msg18101
« Reply #70 on: January 16, 2010, 07:53:12 am »
Well if they can choose when to be tangible or not, can't they slip through/around a shield before making themselves tangible to attack? Not saying this SHOULD be the case, though.

Or perhaps immaterial creatures attack by firing bolts of energy or something, which explains why their damage is lessened but they ignore shield effects.

Offline vrt

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Re: Elements 1.17 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1775.msg18104#msg18104
« Reply #71 on: January 16, 2010, 08:48:29 am »
It adds an interesting dynamic to the game because you can't congeal that elite otyugh, but your permafrost shield might freeze it. Your shield's really do shield you a lot!
It's only fireshield. Not permafrost, not procastrination.
So long and thanks for all the fish!

 

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