Elements 1.15

[Scaredgirl]

Therefore, I would suggest an intermediate challenge. Otherwise this will just become to boring to get money to improve your deck (as already it is difficult to obtain a upgraded card at the end of a win).

Top 50? PvP?

These are not getting you upgraded card and therefore no real possibility to get you a better deck.

So you want an easy and fast way to get upgraded cards?

That's not going to happen. You need to work for it. And by work I mean grind.

[CB!]

Some false gods did get a nerf with the quantum tower fix.  It doesn't offset the sundial nerf, but I think 80% win rate decks were too high anyway, IMO.

[Jangoo]

Concerning what cyberrico said I totally agree!

I tried my rainbow god-killer several times and got totally boned most of the time ... and that is after finally having established a version last week with which I could win against most of the FGs. 

In terms of effectivity the comparison betweent he old and the new sundial works out like this for me:

Old basic: 1time + 2 light, 2 turns of safety, 2 extra cards
Old upgraded: 4 light, 2 turns of safety, 2 extra cards

New basic: 1 time + 1 light, 1 turn of safety, 1 extra card
New upgraded: 2 light, 1 turn of safety, 1 extra card

Now I would consider for the new sundials that those "extra" cards aren't actually extra anymore because instead of drawing the damn sundial in the first place I would have drawn exactly that "extra" card right away.

So basically the new sundial amounts to:
NO extra cards but still 1 turn of safety for the cost of 2 quanta.

It's still a stall and moreover still the fastest stall out there.
(In terms of quantums the phase shield is  better now since you will get 3 turns for only 5 quantums, but of course it being a shield and having to come up with 5 all aether quants does limit its speed/mobility significantly.)

Also, I can see how the old sundial sort of overpowered those rainbow decks and the sundial fix will probably do a lot of good for the pvp-scene and bring up more interesting mono-duo-etc. decks in the Top50.

Looking at it that way I must admit that the new version of the sundial is kind of reasonable and that the nerf is probably a good thing.

---

Having said this about the sundial itself I still agree with cyberrico on the FG and new player issue:


- Just because the rainbow-godkiller got nerfed, it doesn't mean that coloured decks got boosted, so pretty much everybody will loose a lot more now.

- There is no real alternative for the sundials yet. If you consider the new cards to empower new FG strategys, you mustn't forget that those are seemingly rare too and need to be won from FGs in the first place.

- Elements will be a lot harder and weary for new players that want to join in the fun. Without the creds to upgrade other cards and no rainbow deck available anymore ... what are they going to do to get going? Grind lvl3 all day until they can afford ONE damn upgrade?


Personally, I am somewhat over the hill already with 32k score and a couple thousand creds and a bunch of upgraded cards in the backhand. I really like this game but still I dont really see a bright future for my elements account because it is just too time-consuming!
Many people have stressed how much they would like to get into the deck-building aspect as soon as possible and have fun in pvp or while devising new strategys against FGs ... you cant really do that if you need hours and hours of mindless grinding to get going!
Those who were lucky enough to have been here from day one (where one could farm anything with the mono-aether PU -> drag - deck as I heard) may be in the position to brag about their fresh decks bought from loads of (once) easily earned creds. Those who were here from day two (such as me, where one could farm anything with the sundial-rainbow deck) may still have a decent start to not give up ... both groups, especially the first, are what cyberrico called the "arrogant elite" and I see a lot of that "just dont play if you dont like it" or "grind lvl3!" advice coming the newbies way when the will complain about how hard it is to get a start.

Possibly the problem here is not the sundial but the design of ingame-procedure itself?

For me the underlying question is:

Should Elements become a fun card game, sooner or later playable for anybody?

OR

Should Elements become like any other damn MMORPG or Browsergame and make investment of lifetime the core concept on the road to success?

For me, the answer is easy.

I would plead to the developers to not fall for elitist domination of this board and consecutively think that "this is what people want". No, this board is populated by the same old (top) 50 guys and certainly does not reflect the impression someone who has just played his first couple days will have.

So here are my suggestions for more balance and fun for everybody:

- Let Elements have a learning curve and do let people "work" for their progress.
However, make a quick calculation how long it will take a freshman to achieve certain checkpoints (such as his first upgraded card, a real chance to beat a FG, top50-deck etc.). Then consider wether it is realistic to expect people to invest this kind of time.

- Generally speaking, do not increase the overall difficulty and time investment to get decent cards and decks beyond a certain point:
The point where unemployed play-all-daylers and 13 year old school kiddies will dominate a game that could be meant for regular folks who like a nice game with an intellectual challenge (and not a scheduling-challenge).

- Re-adjust / nerf the gods possibly.
I do feel that god-killing should be a challenge and honestly, with the rainbow deck they have really gotten a bit too easy.
However, if they are such a challenge, it should at least be worth it, meaning either
-> That I can devise certain strategies for certain gods to beat them.
I dont think that with an eventual 24 gods (and an improved AI) this will be possible ... it will just be reduced to mindless cash grinding in order to afford several totally luck based matches against the FGs while hoping to be matched against the right ones, time-consuming and not fun!
Here, it may be a good idea to divide all those gods into two or three groups.
or/and
-> That I will at least be rewarded properly!
E.g., if I have to loose 10 matches (=150 score, 300 creds) just to get lucky once (=150 score + 120 creds with e. mastery only!), I took a lot of frustration and time-consuming click-and-loose just to receive a draw in terms of score and a heavy loss in terms of cash??!
Moreover, I will remark that the spinning wheel has been nerfed and that I get spammed with Pillars in the second slot all the time!
Playing against FGs has to pay off for the "advanced" player too and not only for the "elite". Otherwise people will just take a pass and leave.
One way to make it pay off, is to reinstate the winning percentage in the slot maschine.

Ok, before this gets any longer, I best stop here and wait for qualified comments first. ;-)

[Kero]

Well, I think that before the upgrade I was getting one card every 6 or 7 (won) battles. I wouldn't call it easy but this is my point of view. So I'm sure that now it will become really more difficult to improve your deck.
Anyway, this is a great card game. I just wanted to give you my thoughts.

[Avenger]

Zanz, it seems that Stone Skin and Shard of Divinity only increase your max health and don't also heal like they used to before the update. In addition, if you do heal above 100, your health resets at the end of your turn as well as the opponent's.

Haha, i had this too, but i couldn't pinpoint it out. So i removed that note. Good to see someone else sensed a disturbance in the force.

[cyberrico]

Let's be clear.  I could care about Sundial and I could care less about nerfs.  In fact, I have been getting a little bored from the lack of challenge now that I am well into the T50 and have 6+ of every upgraded card in the game.  But it's not just about me and it's not just about the top players.

What concerns me is the impact that losing more than winning will have on the average player.  Even with the old sundial and a great fully upgraded deck no amount of skill could counter nearly any of the FGs when they get the perfect draw or if we don't get an ideal draw. 

Reducing upgrade costs is meaningless.  I had a fully upgraded SG god killer deck in no time.  Anyone else could accomplish that as well. 

I'm simply saying that a 30-40% win rate is not fun.  Period.

Mark my words, Elements will lose a significant player base if some adjustment is not made.

[Jangoo]

Agreed cyberrico ... again.

I think its cool that you are this considerate when it comes to the rest of the players.

I got my FG-rainbow upgraded pretty fast too, but mainly because it actually was possible to play FGs with an un-upgraded rainbow and reinvest the winnings into the deck. 

Right now, I think having to grind roughly 30k against lvl3 to upgrade half a 40 card-deck and thus make it barely reach your supposed 30% winning rate is not an option for newbies ... I would probably rather watch TV for ages and be mad about the ads than to sit there and do that kind of WORK.
 

[Daxx]

Zanz, it seems that Stone Skin and Shard of Divinity only increase your max health and don't also heal like they used to before the update. In addition, if you do heal above 100, your health resets at the end of your turn as well as the opponent's.

Haha, i had this too, but i couldn't pinpoint it out. So i removed that note. Good to see someone else sensed a disturbance in the force.

Yeah, I noticed this as well. This makes getting an elemental mastery very difficult after using a shard of divinity, and I'm sure it's not intended behaviour.

[Hazer5]

I'm going to have to agree with cyberrico as well with most things, though i do think its a little early to tell on how things will pan out.

I'm relatively new and have been playing for about a month now, and i actually just got my deck fully upgraded several days ago. I accomplished this by playing what time a could at work, and off and on during the week.

The way things are now, I'm not sure if i would even want to try to make a new deck from scratch. With the sundials nerfed, taking on FG's with an non-upgraded deck would be more of a pain than fun really imo. Sure there will be new strategies and new cards to contend with, which is why i think its too early to clearly predict how new players will react, but farming lvl 3 until i get 1500 coins for an upgrade would no longer fall into my category of fun.

I'm lucky enough to have my fully upgraded deck and several spare upgraded cards I've won, so for me its not really an issue. But getting where I'm at seemed to be a pretty perfect balance of fun and challenge, with very little luck involved. But if i were to start over, i think frustration might take over before i got to where i wanted to be.

Anyways, its a great game and i have enjoyed playing it and will continue to do so. Just throwing my 2 cents out there 

[cyberrico]

Agreed cyberrico ... again.

I think its cool that you are this considerate when it comes to the rest of the players.

I got my FG-rainbow upgraded pretty fast too, but mainly because it actually was possible to play FGs with an un-upgraded rainbow and reinvest the winnings into the deck. 

Right now, I think having to grind roughly 30k against lvl3 to upgrade half a 40 card-deck and thus make it barely reach your supposed 30% winning rate is not an option for newbies ... I would probably rather watch TV for ages and be mad about the ads than to sit there and do that kind of WORK.

Thanks but in truth my best interests in terms of enjoyment of the game are there too.  I'm not trying to be the voice of the up and comer or casual gamer.  I think that the grind to the ideal God Killer deck isn't that hard. 

I'm saying that at my level of play (again in  the top 50, unlimited upgraded cards and several hundred thousand to spend) is affected just as much. 

Winning more than losing plain and simply sucks.  If any of you are willing to accept this so that you can have more of a challenge then you are sadists LOL. 

Let me give you some other game examples:

First Person Shooters

I am very good at these games.  There are invite only private servers that I have passwords to where the players are all excellent.  I can hold my own in most of them.  99% of the standard open games bore me.  There are some private servers I have been to where the players are so exceptional that I get my butt handed to me on a platter.  They are all on competitive teams and pros.  I don't play there much as while it makes me a better player to try to compete at this level, I will never be that commited to FPS games.  The moral of the story: play to your skill level.

Now that doesn't really work with Elements.  It's not like I don't have the tools or the skill.  My deck is strong and I rarely lose because I made a mistake.  Moving down is not only insanely below my level of play, it shouldn't be necessary for me to feel any self esteem about my ability to compete in a game.

World of Warcraft

I was so close to gladiator in 3 seasons in 2v2 and 3v3 when I played the game.  This one is simple.  You play your best and you will (almost) always play against those at your level.  With the exception of high rated players bringing up new teams, you will always have an appropriate challenge.  Even on an bad day where you do nothing but lose, you will always feel like you had a chance and even losing can feel good.  Elements isn't like that.  Being at the cutting edge of skill isn't difficult.  There are no micro skills or even hand eye coordination skill required to win.  99% of the time that I lose it is because I didn't have a prayer because I didn't draw well enough or the FG drew too well.

The Solutions:



AI- The AI will get better with each update.  That will increase the challenge.  I can think of 100 problems with the AI that are still in the game that could take an 80% win rate player down to 65% without Sundial being nerfed.

Fix PvP.  This is the true endgame to card battle games.  It's rare that some idiot cheater isn't boosting his health every turn or flooded with newbies who are still using their starter decks.

Upgrade Other Cards -  You want sundial nerfed?  Fine.  Boost other defensive cards.  Or offensive cards for that matter.  If you want us to stop sitting behind our Sundial curtain waiting for cards then make cheaper more powerful cards that can speed up the game and actually beat the FGs. 

[Tigerente]

With the changes chriskang will implement to the AI targeting (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,1422.0.html) and the better FG decks, i think it would be quite ok to:
- leave sundial in its nerfed state
- nerf the FG to balance the games. Either less card drawing with a deck size limit of 60 or less HP

[Ohmega]

TheFalse gods shul be the hardest challenge. you have to work for beating them. But you want to battle easy enemys with highdrops!