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prion

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Re: Card Usage Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4093.msg41677#msg41677
« Reply #72 on: March 20, 2010, 09:20:16 pm »
Only rainbow decks can potentially beat all the FGs. To make mono and dual decks more popular, there should be more Oracle-like things where it predicts the next FG you meet. That way it encourages people to design decks that specifically counters some FGs, instead of forcing them to use rainbows to counter all FGs.
I think that falls gods should have less life. it has to be tested what is the right number, but 200 is too much. rainbow doesn't really care how much is the starting life of the gods(so this change wont make rainbow stronger), but this is the main reason all the faster decks has no chance. I think this would make god farming less boring.

Offline jmizzle7

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Re: Card Usage Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4093.msg41853#msg41853
« Reply #73 on: March 21, 2010, 05:41:34 am »
That's the point, prion. If you could speed farm the false gods, you could use the same deck you used against level 3 to farm them. That just doesn't make sense.

prion

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Re: Card Usage Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4093.msg41975#msg41975
« Reply #74 on: March 21, 2010, 04:10:14 pm »
That's the point, prion. If you could speed farm the false gods, you could use the same deck you used against level 3 to farm them. That just doesn't make sense.
and does it make sense, only one deck can beat the gods and everybody have to play that deck again and again? the difference between playing level 3 and the gods would be the winning chance. I think that, if the life number would be chosen carefully, fast decks could get a smaller win percentage against the gods than rainbow has, this could compensate the faster speed. this way you could get about the same upped-cards/hours level with different kind of decks.

i think this has much more sense than nerfing rainbow, and then no deck will be able to beat the gods...

Offline Xinef

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Re: Card Usage Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4093.msg41990#msg41990
« Reply #75 on: March 21, 2010, 05:01:09 pm »
In my opinion, against FG only control decks should have a reasonable chance.
AI3 -> aggro decks, fast, without shields or control, without rares, without upgraded cards
AI5 -> aggro with some control, or slightly aggressive control decks (stalling decks probably should not be very economical in electrum/time spent grinding), rares and upgrades helpful, but not required
AI6 -> control decks only, rares and upgrades make a huge difference, fighting with an unupped deck should be approximately as economical as grinding AI3, unless you are really good at CCG.

That said, by control decks I mean mono/duo/trio/rainbow control decks... I know some elements are quite incapable of making a good control deck right now, and probably it will take some time until all elements are capable of mono-control, but I guess duo decks should be a viable choice sooner.
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tyedyeguy

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Re: Card Usage Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4093.msg42176#msg42176
« Reply #76 on: March 22, 2010, 01:02:16 am »
So, quite the discussion...

I think nerfing FFQ and hourglass because they are good isn't the solution, but buffing the least used cards are.

Synergy, as Xinef continues to mention, is critical for longevity of the game.  Cards working together, from a combination of colors, will change the frequency of usage of the current cards.  These cards are used because they are useful.  Making more useful cards, with greater combinations, will cause a more varied usage of cards overall.

Changing the top cards because they're the top cards is like having a top racehorse hobbled because it wins too much.

Quote from: Xinef
If we keep nerfing rainbows instead of improving other decks, there will be no decks capable of even 40% wins against FG. People trying to beat false gods for the first time, with a partially upgraded deck and still little experience in this kind of challenge will have a winning percentage of 5%-10% I guess, or even less, so I wouldn't be surprised if many people simply stopped playing Elements when they see they have to grind for weeks and then lose a hundred times against FG to finally reach a point when fighting FG is more rewarding than draining electrum."
I had this conversation with my friend today.  He kept refraining from challenging the FG's because of his win percentage.  I went game for game with his deck (I had a 60 card rainbow, fully upgraded) he had a mon color (red) only partially upgraded.

As we went game for game, He saw how even my, in HIS opinion, super powerful deck, kept losing to the FG's.  I had to convince him to keep playing, to ultimately win.  finally he got his win, and spun, and got nothing.

Changes should be made with the PvP in mind, yes, as well as, ultimately, the difficulty of the FG'.s  It's already difficult to beat FG's if they continue to be random.  If you give advanced knowledge of which one is next beyond the occasionally oracle, then a MAJORITY of their challenge is stripped.  It's like knowing the next pitch that's going to be thrown.

Changing the Quantum pillar from 3 a round, including when played) to 3 when played, then to 2-3 is not a complete nerf, but it's not really necessary.  While true it keeps the rainbow decks in play, and if they can live, they're VERY powerful.  But this is why mono colors have the advantage of getting a LOT more quantum faster.  The multi-color pillars (duo, tri, or more) are the best idea, as it would allow specific colors to be generated each turn.  Limited to 6 they would still be worth putting some in your decks.

Offline Essence

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Re: Card Usage Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4093.msg42206#msg42206
« Reply #77 on: March 22, 2010, 01:57:26 am »
Speaking of modifications to underused cards, I'd like to petition on behalf of the underused Graviton Mercenary.  I think it would be good with a 3Gravity casting cost, but whatever it gets, it needs something (besides more HP.)
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dipree

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Re: Card Usage Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4093.msg42393#msg42393
« Reply #78 on: March 22, 2010, 03:41:37 pm »
What do you think about the option to limit the number of quantum towers you can have in a deck to 6 like other normal cards?
Or maybe a bit more, 8 or 10?

Offline Xinef

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Re: Card Usage Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4093.msg42405#msg42405
« Reply #79 on: March 22, 2010, 04:39:17 pm »
What do you think about the option to limit the number of quantum towers you can have in a deck to 6 like other normal cards?
Or maybe a bit more, 8 or 10?
As far as I remember, Zanz stated that he wants rainbows to exist [citation needed]. Limiting the number of quantum pillars would mean that either rainbows have to use 6 supernovas + 6 quantum pillars to have any reasonable amount of quantum (this would limit rainbows to :entropy mark and to small decks because 12 quantum generating cards is quite a low number), or to include other pillars, but this would mean rainbows would be even less stable, in fact less than trio decks. Is that what you want?

Because I think that rainbows should be approximately as powerful as mono/duo/trio decks, not less powerful. And they should be flexible, not severely limited.
And in fact right now rainbows are as powerful as other decks. They are only better against FG, but not better in PvP. The FG are the only real problem when we talk about nerfing rainbows. In PvP any element can make a deck that destroys rainbows quite reliably.



I also have an idea how to solve some concerns regarding mulligan... why not make it happen if you have no quantum generating cards, rather than 0 cost cards?
This way pillars/towers, novas/supernovas, immolations/cremations, gnome gemfinders/brimstone eaters/rays of light/damselfly/firefly/elite firefly and devourer/pest
would count as quantum sources (in fact even the ones that cost 1 or 2 quantum can be played with no pillars if you have the right mark).
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Re: Card Usage Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4093.msg42485#msg42485
« Reply #80 on: March 22, 2010, 09:04:04 pm »
Xinef, you're wrong on that last sentence -- you can't play a Brimstone Eater first turn, because your Mark hasn't generated any Quanta yet.
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Offline plastiqe

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Re: Card Usage Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4093.msg42508#msg42508
« Reply #81 on: March 22, 2010, 09:46:05 pm »
Can we get a thread split between the statistics talk, the rainbow-deck talk, and the philosophy-of-card-balance talk? :)
...or if not, how about we hijack the discussion back to the statistics from the OP.  : )

The biggest surprises for me were on the Most used non-upgraded chart.  Steal is one of the most versatile cards in the game, but I didn't expect it to be first place cause people usually wouldn't use more than 2-3 in any given deck.  And I had no idea Heal was so popular.. I know it got buffed but I would never have guessed it to be in the top 10 unupgraded.

Seravy

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Re: Card Usage Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4093.msg42597#msg42597
« Reply #82 on: March 23, 2010, 12:15:14 am »
The reason for the statistics is simple, but many others already said it.

With only 10-12 cards in each element, and no reliable way to combine more than 1-2 elements without either losing deck stability or going rainbow, the choices in deck construction are extremely limited. Obviously, the only one that can access to the best 1-2 cards of each element is the rainbow deck. Mono/duo decks are not played because there aren't enough choices to make them good (some elements where all the cards are good might, but most don't), and the cards have no synergy within the color. Even worse, a lot of cards have off-color abilities, forcing you into a specific dual combination to use them.
Think about it, with 12 elements, there are 12 mono-color and 66 dual color combinations. Mono-color ones basically have access to about 5-6 cards each (cards needing another color for ability, and cards having an ability not useful for the color do not count), and duals have about twice of that. Although you can make a deck out of only three different cards and pillars by including 3x6 copies, if you want a deck that is versatile, and can stand up against most opponents (which is a MUST because opponents are random), you need to have a wider range of different cards for that. Giving every kind of ability to every color is not good, but each color should have various cards with different effects that can handle situations. For example, not every color needs permanent control, as long as they have other strengths, like better creatures.

Where ALL of the game breaks is the point of facing false gods.
They have so ridiculous advantages, that the only way to face them is being able to provide that same advantage for yourself through overpowered cards.
Being able to defeat opponents who draw twice as many cards, have three times as much starting quantum production, and twice as much maximum life, while also having a strong, and upgraded deck, and the advantage of being able to play dual colors better (3x mark means no need for pillars of that element) is the only way to gain money at a reasonable speed.

I think the following steps must be taken :
1.Nerf false gods.
-They shouldn't be able to draw two cards each turn (currently ONLY time has card drawing ability, and without that, you don't stand a chance, so you must include time...for hourglasses). Limit them to one card per turn.
-They shouldn't have three marks. Two is already a serious advantage, three is going way overboard.
-The starting life of 200 makes decks based on doing damage have a huge disadvantage. Unless you want to limit fighting false gods to control decks, it needs to go down, 120-150 would be a lot more fair. Note that control is not really fit for the theme of all elements, anyway, so making them defeatable by control only is not a good idea.
-Keeping their advantage of having all upgraded cards is fair, as the player can get upgraded cards as well.
-They should be given a specific, unique advantage, fitting for that god. For example, the time one could get the extra card draw, the fire one could do additional damage by spells, the life one could have an additional mark, the entropy one could start with a random creature, the aether one could be untargetable (the god not his creatures), the light one could get +1/+1 for all his creatures, the death one could give -1/-1 to all opponent creatures, etc...that way the fight is a lot more interesting, and they won't become too easy.
2.Add more cards and dual/trio/quad pillars. Adding every color combination as duals is not necessary, but deciding on the main groups (there is a thread about that somewhere), and avoiding new cards that use two colors not from the same group is.
3.Don't nerf any cards, except for maybe hourglasses yet. Only nerf hourglasses after you remove the extra draw from false gods. That ability makes them unbeatable without an equal card advantage of your own. (No, 20% win percentage is not beating them. Fully upgraded, good decks should have at least a 60% win ratio when played by a good player)

As someone else already said, nerfing the ONLY playable deck of the game is a very bad idea. Nerfing hourglasses will make getting to the point where you can farm false gods a lot harder because rainbow's tightest point is the time quanta. Nerfing quantum pillars would make people quit and would ruin the game. They are already inferior to other pillars, even with 5 of them, you often don't get the necessary quantum to play the cards of key importance for like 3-4 turns simply because they are random, and when that happens, you lose the game. Nerfing them would just make it happen even more often.
It's bad enough when you need to be lucky enough to face a god you can beat+draw a reasonable amount of pillars+draw a hourglass(without that, you have no chance)+draw an otyugh in time(otherwise you can't stop the creature spam)+draw a quintessece (otherwise your otyugh gets frozen/killed/lobotomized/mutated/etc)+get the right quanta for all that, further nerfing would make most people quit. I was about to quit even under the current conditions, don't make things even worse for people.

Thakog

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Re: Card Usage Statistics https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4093.msg42598#msg42598
« Reply #83 on: March 23, 2010, 12:15:41 am »
As an extremely casual player (I've found myself playing even less in the last month or so) I find the FGs discouraging. I can beat them, but the lack of deck building creativity for FGs (rainbow or antimatter) becomes mind numbing. Yet, grinding FGs is the best way to make money and get new cards.

I think either rainbow decks or the FGs need to be nerfed until mono/duo/trio decks become well represented and diversified for FG grinding.

Or, I think it was puppychow's idea originally, but limit and rotate the FGs every week, like 5 a week or so.

 

blarg: