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Offline BelthusTopic starter

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Teleportation and Consciousness (Semi-Permalink)
« on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »

So is a retarded person's soul retarded too?

Offline BelthusTopic starter

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Teleportation and Consciousness (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »

To the best of our knowledge, everything is physical. If everything relevant is recorded and the copy process works, then the new body will be "you" just as much as the old one was.

In fact, our bodies are not made of the same matter as they were in the past. We lose matter through natural bodily processes, and we gain matter to replace it. What keeps your body more or less the same is that the structure and interrelationships are maintained.

Offline BelthusTopic starter

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Teleportation and Consciousness (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »

So is a retarded person's soul retarded too?
Not necessarily. It's a human soul born into a crippled body.
OK. What part of the human personality isn't physical? I am sure you know of all the drugs that influence mood or help control disorders like schizophrenia. Those drugs are based on a biological understanding of our subjective experiences, reasoning, decision making, etc. The drugs may be blunt instruments at the moment, but they strongly suggest that no part of who we are, the human personality, is beyond the physical functions of the nervous system.

Neuroscience and related fields have a detailed understanding of which part of the brain performs which function. The fight/flight response comes out the Locus coeruleus. The frontal lobe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontal_lobe) is responsible for many higher-order functions: considering future consequences of an action, planning, inhibiting impulses, etc. The hippocampus plays a major role in memory formation. I could go on and on. What is left for the soul to do?

Offline BelthusTopic starter

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Teleportation and Consciousness (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »

Ya, we are always changing, and it could be proposed that we never have the same consciousness as we had in the past (sort of like brain states). However, we are assuming that as long as we have never teleported, our consciousness is continuous (the same one we had when we were born). If you used this machine, but skipped the disintegration step and went straight to the copy creation, the copy wouldn't share your consciousness. You would have no control over it whatsoever.
Yes and no. It would be like two identical computers running identical software. They could diverge to do different things in the future. But at the moment, they are like twins. The original you wouldn't have control over the copy you, but the two of you would be identical twins who had identical memories.

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Teleportation and Consciousness (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »

Well... In the case of teleportation, I've always thought that the device opens up a hole in spacetime, and you step through it. I'm not sure about breaking yourself up into molecules...
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

bobcamel

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Teleportation and Consciousness (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »

Well, there are two theories:

1) The consciousness is saved in the brain as its state and the every-molecule scan is enough to reproduce it

2) A newly created body will be dead.

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Teleportation and Consciousness (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »

Let's say scientists invent a teleportation device. It can send you to any other teleportation device. It works by scanning your body down to every molecule. It then disintegrates you and sends the data to a second device in the desired location. The second device then reconstructs your body exactly how it was. This raises several questions. First, is the consciousness the same? Second, are you actually dead and this copy is only a copy? Assuming we have souls (make this assumption, don't argue against having souls), what happens to them? Furthermore, if you hadn't done whatever you were "supposed" to do according to your religion before you teleported and your copy then does this, does it count (likewise if you are agnostic or atheistic and then your copy becomes religious)? Also, could your copy have its own soul?
Assuming the technical problems are swept under the rug and the copy is indeed exactly perfect, then this is very interesting. I'd answer the questions in the following way:

1. Yes. I don't know of any form of consciousness that is separate from the body, and given it is an exact replica (assuming right down to things like quantum states and the like) it's likely that the consciousness will simply continue from the state in which it was left off.

2. "You" I suspect is a misleading word to use. The original copy is dead. The new copy is alive. As far as the new copy is concerned, its awareness is contiguous with that of the old copy and so therefore if would be reasonable from its perspective to consider itself the same. At that point it's only outside observers who might define it differently (and the original copy doesn't get to have a perspective; it's dead).

3+. Assuming we have souls, we'd have to agree on a definition and a mechanic by which they work before we could answer these questions meaningfully.

Ya, but after the creation of the copy, even though everything before the copy is the same, everything after is different. So they aren't the same consciousness. Twins don't have the same consciousness, and it could be said one is the copy of the other.

If the original reads a book, the copy doesn't gain the knowledge.
This raises the question: are you the same person as you were a second ago? After all, your experiences have changed, and reading a book doesn't mean that your past self gains that knowledge.

i don't wanna get into an argument, i was simply stating what the typical judeo/christian doctrine is.
I don't think there is a "typical" Judeo-Christian doctrine. The bible mentions very little about the exact nature of the soul - most of what we consider to be part of the Judeo-Christian mythos is what various thinkers have developed over several thousand years, and it varies quite a lot from place to place and denomination to denomination, and this includes concepts of the soul.

Could you define your concept of the soul in a little more depth? I'd be interested to see what you think, because definition is so important in these discussions. This is a bit off topic though, so feel free to not bother or do it in another thread or something if you want.

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Teleportation and Consciousness (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »

Let's say scientists invent a teleportation device. It can send you to any other teleportation device. It works by scanning your body down to every molecule. It then disintegrates you and sends the data to a second device in the desired location. The second device then reconstructs your body exactly how it was. This raises several questions. First, is the consciousness the same? Second, are you actually dead and this copy is only a copy? Assuming we have souls (make this assumption, don't argue against having souls), what happens to them? Furthermore, if you hadn't done whatever you were "supposed" to do according to your religion before you teleported and your copy then does this, does it count (likewise if you are agnostic or atheistic and then your copy becomes religious)? Also, could your copy have its own soul?

Pick and choose what you want to answer, my main focus is the first two questions.

I would say the consciousness is not the same, and you are actually dead. If this is true, and scientists actually did invent a teleportation device/system that worked this way, would you use it? Realize that there is no way you could know it is true (unless the machine sent the data to two different machines, but considering the world's current stance on cloning, this would probably be deemed unethical) so you have to consider it as a possibility, even if it is actually true.


Offline Demagog

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Teleportation and Consciousness (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »

Lol that's funny. So ya, I'm pretty sure Belthus's remark is a good contradiction to your belief.

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Teleportation and Consciousness (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »

The spiritual part of your self. It goes off to whatever afterlife there is, or is reincarnated if that is part of your religion.

So I'm asking if the copy would have a spiritual part to it, if it does, is it the same as yours or is it a different soul entirely, if it is the latter or doesn't have a soul, what happened to yours? Can your soul be influenced by the copy, since it is "you?"

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Teleportation and Consciousness (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »

Well we don't know that the soul is the consciousness. The two could be seperate entities.

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Teleportation and Consciousness (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »

Ya, but after the creation of the copy, even though everything before the copy is the same, everything after is different. So they aren't the same consciousness. Twins don't have the same consciousness, and it could be said one is the copy of the other.

If the original reads a book, the copy doesn't gain the knowledge.

 

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