New CCG - With The Elements Community's Help

[Chapuz]

Well, back in the game:

1)
majofa suggested giving the players 1 supplier per turn, and the players decide in which primary color they want to put it.
If this is the only way to gain "mana" of that supplier color, the game speed would be too limited.
Any suggestions to speed it up?

2) Assuming no lag at all, how long would you want, on average, the games to last? In time or in turns.

[majofa]

Most CCGs only allow one source per turn.

[dracomageat]

What majo said.
I would suggest the following turn order:

1) flip top card, assign it to an "inkwell".
2) option for players to blend colours from primary inkwells.
3) "pigment" production based on "inkwell" contents, any start of turn effects.
4) draw card(s).
5) use "pigment" to play cards/abilities.
6) assign attackers.
7) <optional> assign blockers.
8) damage is done.
9) discard if and as required.
10) "pallette" is clensed of "pigment" (ie. quanta drains away).
11) turn ends.

Each card would have a colour (usually) based on its cost (like elements in elements) and one or more "ink"s. When turned up for "inkwell" use, it is the "ink" that matters. For example, if Lava Golem was turned up and had only a yellow "ink", it could only boost a yellow "inkwell", dispite being a red card. Bad cards would tend to have more options. An extreme example of this would be that multicoloured decks might choose to include Relics as, while they are useless to play, they would have all 3 primary and all 3 secondary "inks" and so could add to any "inkwell".
Other examples: Armagio might be orange with an orange "ink" and so couldn't add to either red or yellow but would be a quicker than average way to get other orange cards out. Chaos Seed might be purple with yellow, green and orange "inks" due to its strangeness, making it hard to build pure purple or RBP decks with. While lightning would be more likely to be purple with blue and red "inks", giving some nice options to an RBP deck but being a bit slower for pure purple than armagios would be for orange. This lack of pure purple speed giving balances out the power of lightnings when played in pure purple and would play a significant role in deckbuilding strategy.

Elements examples used for convienience only.

[Chapuz]

Let me see if I understood that right:
- there is an inkwell for each color (ie. quanta pools)
- cards cost pigment of each color
- The last card a player draws can be turned into pigment of it's color (ie. Armagio into 5 orange pigment units)

Questions about what you said:
- Why would pure orange slow to build?
- what's the difference between ink and pigment?
- why would lava golem would be able to give you yellow pigment instead of red?
- Is transforming creatures into pigment the only way to gain pigments?

[dracomageat]

EDIT: Rehashed after talking with chapuz:
-there is an "inkwell" for each primary colour, for each secondary colour and for black (quanta pools).
-each one has a number of "ink" (its suppliers).
-each turn you have "pigment" (quanta) to play cards and abilities equal to the amount of "ink" of each colour.
-you start with zero ink (could be one I guess).
-each turn you see the top card of your deck and may either draw or "ink" it (discard it and add one to an "inkwell").
-each card has one or more "blotches" on it that correspond to what "inkwells" it can add to. You choose one. They don't have to bear any relation to the card colour.
-after choosing whether or not to "ink" the card, the "blending phase" starts. here you may mix two primary into a secondary "ink" (usable that turn) or "erase" an "ink" to create black "ink". these actions are repeatable as many times as you like.
-brown cards are played like elements' other aligned cards. they have weak and generic effects.
-white cards are similar but require payment from a single "inkwell". their effects are light based and encompass things such as Sundial, Sanctuary and changing ink colours.
-after the "refill phase", "blending phase" and "casting phase" comes the "attack phase" in which you click a creature of yours, then either an opponent or opposing creature. creatures not assigned targets will not attack (default could be all attacking but staying back needs to be an option).
-creatures may only be attacked if they themselves attacked last turn.
-attacked creatures take but do not deal damage. if they survive, they may retaliate on their turn (see last note).
-discard happens as required.
-turn ends.

Factors to consider:
-brown must be weaker than white, which must be weaker than the primaries. brown serves primarily as a utility for rainbow decks while high cost white cards should be flashy but still open to all monos.
-secondaries must be slightly stronger than primaries and sufficiently different in effect.
-black should be able to bring back cards from the grave so that OTKs can get back key cards late game (incase they were "inked") without opening the graveyard up to abuse by faster decks. they would have to lose a fair chunk of "ink" to make use of such black cards, something they probably couldn't afford.
-faster secondary cards should generally have "blotches" of one or two of the corresponding primaries while slower/more defensive ones should have the secondary (for example, Accelerate would have R/Y while Armagio would have O). this would mean that, in general, slower decks have faster access to secondary "ink" colours than their faster counterparts, leading to deckbuilders having to find a balance between aggression and quanta production speeds. more nuances of deckbuilding is never bad IMO and this is the whole idea behind my "inking" system.
-less useful cards should have more "blotch" options. an extreme example is that Relic would have a full 6 "blotches" (RBYPGO).
-highly powerful cards may have to have only a black "blotch". these would generate "ink" that was pre-"erased" and give the player absolutely no options.
-for practical reasons, out of turn actions should be limited as much as possible.

Any more questions, feel free to ask.

[Captain Scibra]

Chapuz asked about resource systems.  To be fair, it is a decent idea to include many styles.  There is Land, Pillar, and Burst.

EtG already uses Pillar (duh) and Burst (Nova, Soul Catcher, etc.).  Land is a mixture of the two.  It produces a small burst of quanta, but like a pillar, can be used every turn until destroyed.  However, the resources gained only last during the turn you produce it.

Think of an EtG Land.  Not too hard to code it, as all parts are there:
"0: Generate  .  [Think Rustler, but free and unrepeatable.]  Absorb  at the end of the turn if ability is activated.  [Think Flooding, but the absorption is not a maintenance payment.]  Can only play 1 per turn.
The 1 per turn would be kept in line by using a pseudo-Silence for Land cards.  The second part isn't exactly there, but I imagine it like Iridium Warden delaying itself such that it doesn't attack.  This could be stretched into allowing this to 'attack' your quanta pool.
It's difficult to balance this.  Pillars allow being able to play bigger cards sooner, but at a more gradual rate, which slowly speeds up over time.  Lands allow you to play a lot of small cards early game, and gradually allow bigger cards every turn.

In my mind, I could imagine a Land producing (and reabsorbing up to) 3 quanta and Pillars stockpiling 2 quanta per turn, and it would feel relatively balanced.  Effectively, this doubles the EtG quanta scale.  If there were upgrades... I'm going to just leave that out until it has cooked in my mind.  Pillars probably would produce 2 quanta on play like they do in EtG, scaled.  Lands I might want to say they could produce (and resaborb up to) 4 quanta per turn, but a playtest would be needed to test for actual balance.

Another small detail that could be added to a TCG/CCG is drawbacks.  Quanta cost included, a drawback is what is required to play a card, to balance out that it has some value for being played.  In EtG, this would also include ability cost, costing a different element than the card itself, or if it caused the creature to experience a negative effect (like Iridium Warden being delayed when using Guard).  Soft synergies are not exactly drawbacks, but they both are what synergy is defined as: how cards interact with one another.  Draw backs are mostly negative, soft synergies are mostly positive, while hard synergies are a more neutral mixture.

Subtypes are another possibility for a TCG/CCG.  MtG already has a megaton of them.  Ederon has only a handful for each type.  EtG has a very limited scope.  Weapons and Shields have a single slot on the field, pillars can be the only target of EQ, and nymphs can be generated by Nymph Tears, and mutations can be generated by Mutation (mutations may not be real cards, but they are a type of token, actually regarded on Improved Mutation).

I might finish this post later... time for bed...

[OldTrees]

Energy base and thematic consequences:

I really like the idea of using the color wheel as the groups in the CCG. However this does have the consequence that secondary colors are combinations of the primary colors. Players will expect this to be demonstrated thematically as well. (Aka Green should be related to Yellow and Blue)

As for the Color mechanics:
You will need to decide whether to use the Pillar, Land or another system for the primary colors.
You should keep the 1/turn rule.

I am going to assume the following model:
1 per turn
Separate permanents (important for later)
Generate ink at end of the turn
Ink is stored

Secondary colors use secondary sources. How can we make it accessible while keeping the cost and increasing the versatility?
Have the option to merge two different primary sources (activated targeting ability) to create a single secondary source.
Each secondary source has an activated ability to switch between producing 2 of primary A, 1 secondary, or 2 of primary B.

When a card is played it deducts its colored cost immediately and then lets the player target color pools until the colorless part is satisfied.

White, Black and Brown could be multicolored cards rather than colors.
White: 2-3 Primary colors required
Brown: 2-3 Secondary colors required
Black: Primary and Secondary colors required

[Chapuz]

@Cap
If we have 2 different generators (let's say Land + Pillars), how would you suggest to get them? With the sacrifying system, making the player choose one of them would be too messy. Another idea of a mechanic to get pigment generators other than pillar/land cards?

I really like the idea of using the color wheel as the groups in the CCG. However this does have the consequence that secondary colors are combinations of the primary colors. Players will expect this to be demonstrated thematically as well. (Aka Green should be related to Yellow and Blue)

Yellow+ Blue = Green. When water goes into earth, nature is created.
Red + Blue = Purple. Fire and Water produce steam, which goes to the sky (?)
Yellow + Red = Orange. Totally no idea, yet I like more changing orange theme for "space" or something like that.

As pigment generators will be gained by sacrifying cards, which can be painful, I would like each generator to be significant, while having a more open cost range of cards than MtG. I don't really know if that can be made with a Land system, maybe a MtG (or other CCG that uses something similar) player can put 2  on this.

I am going to assume the following model:
1 per turn
Separate permanents (important for later)
Generate ink at end of the turn
Ink is stored

For pillar-based ink, yes. idk why they would be different permanents and no stacks though.

White, Black and Brown could be multicolored cards rather than colors.
White: 2-3 Primary colors required
Brown: 2-3 Secondary colors required
Black: Primary and Secondary colors required

I like the white and brown idea, but the black one is just... idk. I like the idea of generating a single black pigment by sacrifying another color ink/lant/pillar/whatever (pigment generator)

We also thought about having a dropper, that gives you a single primary pigment each turn. The pigment is chosen by the player and can be changed any time.

[Chapuz]

Yes, double post, sorry.

After talking with Atom_heart, here's a new idea:

Somehow, you gain white light generators (call them however you want).
You possess a prism/filter that converts the white light into light of the primary colors (Red, Green, Blue), with a certain efficiency (let's say 60-70%), and that amount of light is accumulated. Well, then you can combine two primary colors to make secondaries (yellow, Cyan, Magenta).
The rest is auto-explained, cards cost light of that colors, bla bla bla.

Ideas: getting  white "source" cards so you can generate light of 2 colors with 2 prisms, for example? Or a single white source while drawing filters of different colors, being the light separated at 50% to each filter and 33% if there are 3 filters? Having 3 white sources where you can put filters differently?

[Atom_heart]

Spoiler for Hidden:

Yes, double post, sorry.

After talking with Atom_heart, here's a new idea:

Somehow, you gain white light generators (call them however you want).
You possess a prism/filter that converts the white light into light of the primary colors (Red, Green, Blue), with a certain efficiency (let's say 60-70%), and that amount of light is accumulated. Well, then you can combine two primary colors to make secondaries (yellow, Cyan, Magenta).
The rest is auto-explained, cards cost light of that colors, bla bla bla.

Ideas: getting  white "source" cards so you can generate light of 2 colors with 2 prisms, for example? Or a single white source while drawing filters of different colors, being the light separated at 50% to each filter and 33% if there are 3 filters? Having 3 white sources where you can put filters differently?

A bit more about the idea we had with Chapuz regarding quanta management (we haven't discussed several points yet, so our interpretations might differ a bit, this is still very green):
- Each turn you get a certain amount of white light (let's say for example 100 quanta).
- You can play permanent cards that interact with white light to obtain other colors according to additive and substractive models. There would be different permanents with different properties and efficiencies. For example:
* Regular prism: transform 20 white light quanta into 5 blue light quanta, 5 green and 5 red (this prism would have a 75% yield)
* Pure prism: transform 20 white light quanta into 6 blue, 6 green and 6 red (90% yield)
* Blue filter: absorb (in this case blue) light form 10 white light quanta to obtain 6 (in this case, yellow) light quanta (60 % yield)
* Cyan prism: combine 10 blue and 10 green light quanta to obtain 15 cyan light quanta (75% yield).... and so on.
- Efficiencies add a cost to each operation. Since secondary color lights (CMY) would be harder to obtain, the respective cards should be in a general way slightly more powerful than RBG.
- Leftover white light could be used for "white" type cards that, in concordance with the last point, should be weaker that RBG (Maybe just spells and assistance cards)
- The quanta lost in each transformation can vary according to the grade of the permanent (upgrades maybe?).
- An absorbing permanent could be used to allow use of "black" cards

In my opinion, the possibility to add and remove permanents that modify the way (and rate) quanta is generated constitutes a more dynamic generation process, adding a layer of strategy to the gameplay itself, beyond the deckbuilding.

[Fippe94]

That seems like a very interesting idea for generating quanta/mana/light/whatever you want to call it. I like it!

[Chapuz]

@Atom: In that case, there has to be done something in case prisms/filters requiere more white light than the one you have. Also, white light doesn't have to be stuck in a number, there can be ways to obtain it