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Archeron

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Global warming ''consensus'' and you https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1263.msg12830#msg12830
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2009, 09:58:33 pm »

Please stop trolling this post.

Daxx

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Global warming ''consensus'' and you https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1263.msg12831#msg12831
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2009, 09:58:33 pm »

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2009/12/50-reasons-why-global-warming.html

Relying on the Daily Express for your information is not a good idea. Do you guys only read tabloids?

Seriously, at least run over what you're posting with a critical eye. Even I could point out where some of those "reasons" are fallacious without even going to the data. It's especially pathetic when most of those points are irrelevant to the premise that climate change is entirely natural, and are merely attacks on other environmentalist programs. To be honest I don't care whether or not climate change is anthropogenic - but I do care about intellectually dishonest posturing for partisan political reasons and distorting scientific debate in service to the profit motive.

And what is this about Al Gore? You keep posting things triumphantly over how a politician made a mistake when he's talking about something out of his field, as if one advocate who overstates his case undermines the entire field. If that were possible, all someone would need to do in order to discredit the entire conservative movement would be to point at Sarah Palin.

I mean, what is this, some sort of anti-intellectual anti-science culture war you guys are engaging in? It seems like every position the fringe-right takes goes against scientific consensus and observable reality. Religion, evolution, climate change, economic policy, vaccination risks - what's next, the shape of the Earth?

How many times do these poorly written opinion pieces need to be refuted before you stop listening to them? "The emails are proof that global warming is a lie!" "Actually, if you read them properly, they don't support that conclusion." "Oh well then they're distorting and hiding the data." "Actually there's no evidence of that either." "Oh well then some other unspecified piece of evidence exists which proves it all false but I don't need to actually see or cite it myself because it must exist, I believe it." It's frankly amazing the cognitive dissonance that some people are able to put up with as they try ever harder to discredit established bodies of data with little anecdotal examples. Ever wonder that your media sources are sensationalist and uncritical, and that you're a victim of confirmation bias?

Daxx

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Global warming ''consensus'' and you https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1263.msg12832#msg12832
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2009, 09:58:33 pm »

Please read what I'm writing rather than engaging in knee-jerk advocacy. I don't care about this topic in particular, I'm not promoting environmentalism or any other agenda, and nor do I particularly care about what some non-specialist blogger or forum owner has to say on the subject. What I do care about is that people are uncritically posting cherry-picked news stories, or emails forwarded to them by their friends with subject titles like "FWD: FWD: FWD: THE GOVVERMENT IS KEEPING US DOWN PLEASE FORWARD", or whatever the hell it is this week and going "there, it's all a lie!". What I care about is that you're quite willing to manufacture smoking guns out of mid-air through the magic of confirmation bias without thinking about what you're writing.

Daxx

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Global warming ''consensus'' and you https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1263.msg12833#msg12833
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2009, 09:58:33 pm »

Please stop trolling this post.
Accusing someone of trolling is often a sign that you're unwilling to listen to what someone is saying.

But go ahead, don't actually respond to any of the points I'm making - just engage in ad hominem attacks. It sure supports your case. :)

Daxx

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Global warming ''consensus'' and you https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1263.msg12834#msg12834
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2009, 09:58:33 pm »

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2009/12/50-reasons-why-global-warming.html

Relying on the Daily Express for your information is not a good idea. Do you guys only read tabloids?

Seriously, at least run over what you're posting with a critical eye. Even I could point out where some of those "reasons" are fallacious without even going to the data. It's especially pathetic when most of those points are irrelevant to the premise that climate change is entirely natural, and are merely attacks on other environmentalist programs. To be honest I don't care whether or not climate change is anthropogenic - but I do care about intellectually dishonest posturing for partisan political reasons and distorting scientific debate in service to the profit motive.
Yes, not all 100 points "proove" climate change is natural, many of them simply refute the arguments made by the "one world government" group trying to push the global warming fallacy on us.
Wow, one world government? You're really reaching deep into the conspiracy theory barrel there.

None of them actually refute any arguments (aside from possibly straw men). I take it you didn't read the link I posted? I mean seriously, you're embarrassing yourself if you actually think that list contributed anything meaningful to the debate. I give you more credit than that, anyway, so I'm guessing you didn't actually read your own list before posting it.

And what is this about Al Gore? You keep posting things triumphantly over how a politician made a mistake when he's talking about something out of his field, as if one advocate who overstates his case undermines the entire field. If that were possible, all someone would need to do in order to discredit the entire conservative movement would be to point at Sarah Palin.
Al Gore is pushed as some kind of "expert" on global warming- he even won a nobel prize for his work. Not to mention he is not making mistakes- he is LYING. He's pushing this scam along with a lot of other ultra-rich people like George Soros so they can "tax" people directly- with all the money going straight to them. Who do you think owns the shell companies set up to run the carbon credit scam?
I would hold climatologists above Gore any day in terms of authority. Again, you can push your conspiracy theories all you like but what you have there is a result of capitalism in action - that is, if you're even correct. But here's the mistake you're making - if you think he's a vested interest, then what about all the petroleum companies who have been trying to promote dissenting opinion by funding "research", or the entrenched business interests in various governments who essentially accept corporate donations in exchange for promoting their agenda? They're no different, really. You can discredit Gore, and I can discredit other politicians, but the science is hopefully independent of the people promoting it.

Also- what does Sarah Palin have to do with this topic? And what are you implying about her? The only accurate criticisms about her were her daughter got knocked up, she has an accent and she didn't graduate from an ivy league school. Everything else was BS.
Sarah Palin was (and continues to be) a vapid and frankly not particularly bright anti-intellectual religious nut, whose knowledge of economic and social policy is thin at best, whose understanding of more specific policy is dictated almost solely by her handlers, whose only real skill appears to be the ability to gin up the christian conservative base, who appears to be thoroughly intellectually incurious, and who appears to be completely unqualified to hold high office (honestly any public office is a stretching it a bit). You might not like this characterisation, but it's true.

The point that I was making is that by your logic she is representative of the entire conservative movement because she promotes it - and that therefore the entire movement is a sham and a lie. Of course, it proves no such thing.

I mean, what is this, some sort of anti-intellectual anti-science culture war you guys are engaging in? It seems like every position the fringe-right takes goes against scientific consensus and observable reality. Religion, evolution, climate change, economic policy, vaccination risks - what's next, the shape of the Earth?
What are these sort of ad-hominem attacks supposed to prove? If anything it's the global warming so-called theory that has zero scientific consensus or proof. A bunch of politicians paid off a few well-connected scientists to come up with models that prove a pre-determined conclusion. Then they go out of their way to discredit anybody who uses actual facts to disprove their political tool. Similar to the way scientists and politicians attacked people who proved the earth is round.
It's not a fallacious ad hominem attack if it's not used to prove a point. It is in fact asking a question - why are you so determined to ignore real life in favour of your own predetermined conclusions? Multiple independent sets of data exist collected by many different scientists in many countries, and the evidence comes in many and varied forms from measurement data to ice cores to tree rings and so on and so forth, all of which more or less match and provide a substantial body of evidence that demonstrates warming is occurring, but you characterise this (totally disingenuously) as "zero consensus or proof"? It's the same with evolution; there's huge amounts of proof from many different sources, through many different methods, and it all supports the evolutionary model - but you'll happily ignore the wealth of evidence just because you prefer to believe that the world was created by some god in six days some 6000 years ago.

How many times do these poorly written opinion pieces need to be refuted before you stop listening to them? "The emails are proof that global warming is a lie!" "Actually, if you read them properly, they don't support that conclusion." "Oh well then they're distorting and hiding the data." "Actually there's no evidence of that either." "Oh well then some other unspecified piece of evidence exists which proves it all false but I don't need to actually see or cite it myself because it must exist, I believe it." It's frankly amazing the cognitive dissonance that some people are able to put up with as they try ever harder to discredit established bodies of data with little anecdotal examples. Ever wonder that your media sources are sensationalist and uncritical, and that you're a victim of confirmation bias?
Actually I agree. The media is largely "sensationalist and uncritical" when it comes to pushing global warming. If it wasn't for the internet there would be no medium available for getting the truth.
The media is sensationalist and uncritical about lots of things. But posting news stories from tabloids really illuminates your level of discernment on this matter.

Evil Hamster

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Global warming ''consensus'' and you https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1263.msg12835#msg12835
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2009, 09:58:33 pm »

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2009/12/50-reasons-why-global-warming.html

Relying on the Daily Express for your information is not a good idea. Do you guys only read tabloids?

Seriously, at least run over what you're posting with a critical eye. Even I could point out where some of those "reasons" are fallacious without even going to the data. It's especially pathetic when most of those points are irrelevant to the premise that climate change is entirely natural, and are merely attacks on other environmentalist programs. To be honest I don't care whether or not climate change is anthropogenic - but I do care about intellectually dishonest posturing for partisan political reasons and distorting scientific debate in service to the profit motive.
Yes, not all 100 points "proove" climate change is natural, many of them simply refute the arguments made by the "one world government" group trying to push the global warming fallacy on us.

And what is this about Al Gore? You keep posting things triumphantly over how a politician made a mistake when he's talking about something out of his field, as if one advocate who overstates his case undermines the entire field. If that were possible, all someone would need to do in order to discredit the entire conservative movement would be to point at Sarah Palin.
Al Gore is pushed as some kind of "expert" on global warming- he even won a nobel prize for his work. Not to mention he is not making mistakes- he is LYING. He's pushing this scam along with a lot of other ultra-rich people like George Soros so they can "tax" people directly- with all the money going straight to them. Who do you think owns the shell companies set up to run the carbon credit scam?

Also- what does Sarah Palin have to do with this topic? And what are you implying about her? The only accurate criticisms about her were her daughter got knocked up, she has an accent and she didn't graduate from an ivy league school. Everything else was BS.

I mean, what is this, some sort of anti-intellectual anti-science culture war you guys are engaging in? It seems like every position the fringe-right takes goes against scientific consensus and observable reality. Religion, evolution, climate change, economic policy, vaccination risks - what's next, the shape of the Earth?
What are these sort of ad-hominem attacks supposed to prove? If anything it's the global warming so-called theory that has zero scientific consensus or proof. A bunch of politicians paid off a few well-connected scientists to come up with models that prove a pre-determined conclusion. Then they go out of their way to discredit anybody who uses actual facts to disprove their political tool. Similar to the way scientists and politicians attacked people who proved the earth is round.

How many times do these poorly written opinion pieces need to be refuted before you stop listening to them? "The emails are proof that global warming is a lie!" "Actually, if you read them properly, they don't support that conclusion." "Oh well then they're distorting and hiding the data." "Actually there's no evidence of that either." "Oh well then some other unspecified piece of evidence exists which proves it all false but I don't need to actually see or cite it myself because it must exist, I believe it." It's frankly amazing the cognitive dissonance that some people are able to put up with as they try ever harder to discredit established bodies of data with little anecdotal examples. Ever wonder that your media sources are sensationalist and uncritical, and that you're a victim of confirmation bias?
Actually I agree. The media is largely "sensationalist and uncritical" when it comes to pushing global warming. If it wasn't for the internet there would be no medium available for getting the truth.

Offline jmizzle7

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Global warming ''consensus'' and you https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1263.msg12836#msg12836
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2009, 09:58:33 pm »

Please stop trolling this post.
He's not trolling, and trolling is not just simply disagreeing with somebody in a very confrontational way. This is the off-topic section of the forums, where we can talk about pretty much anything. Daxx is not off-topic because the source of information is at the heart of this thread's topic.

Offline Qwandri

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Global warming ''consensus'' and you https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1263.msg12837#msg12837
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2009, 09:58:33 pm »

"93) US President Barack Obama pledged to cut emissions by 2050 to equal those of 1910 when there were 92 million Americans. In 2050, there will be 420 million Americans, so Obama’s promise means that emissions per head will be approximately what they were in 1875. It simply will not happen."

how does this prove that global warming is a sham?
Strike that, reverse it.

Archeron

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Re: Global warming ''consensus'' and you https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1263.msg26405#msg26405
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2010, 07:21:29 pm »
Update many ''gates'' later:


It has been tough to keep up with all the bad news for global warming alarmists. We’re on the edge of our chair, waiting for the next shoe to drop. This has been an Imelda Marcos kind of season for shoe-dropping about global warming.

At your next dinner party, here are some of the latest talking points to bring up when someone reminds you that Al Gore and the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change won Nobel prizes for their work on global warming.

ClimateGate – This scandal began the latest round of revelations when thousands of leaked documents from Britain’s East Anglia Climate Research Unit showed systematic suppression and discrediting of climate skeptics’ views and discarding of temperature data, suggesting a bias for making the case for warming. Why do such a thing if, as global warming defenders contend, the “science is settled?”

FOIGate – The British government has since determined someone at East Anglia committed a crime by refusing to release global warming documents sought in 95 Freedom of Information Act requests. The CRU is one of three international agencies compiling global temperature data. If their stuff’s so solid, why the secrecy?

ChinaGate – An investigation by the U.K.’s left-leaning Guardian newspaper found evidence that Chinese weather station measurements not only were seriously flawed, but couldn’t be located. “Where exactly are 42 weather monitoring stations in remote parts of rural China?” the paper asked. The paper’s investigation also couldn’t find corroboration of what Chinese scientists turned over to American scientists, leaving unanswered, “how much of the warming seen in recent decades is due to the local effects of spreading cities, rather than global warming?” The Guardian contends that researchers covered up the missing data for years.

HimalayaGate – An Indian climate official admitted in January that, as lead author of the IPCC’s Asian report, he intentionally exaggerated when claiming Himalayan glaciers would melt away by 2035 in order to prod governments into action. This fraudulent claim was not based on scientific research or peer-reviewed. Instead it was originally advanced by a researcher, since hired by a global warming research organization, who later admitted it was “speculation” lifted from a popular magazine. This political, not scientific, motivation at least got some researcher funded.


PachauriGate – Rajendra Pachauri, the IPCC chairman who accepted with Al Gore the Nobel Prize for scaring people witless, at first defended the Himalaya melting scenario. Critics, he said, practiced “voodoo science.” After the melting-scam perpetrator ‘fessed up, Pachauri admitted to making a mistake. But, he insisted, we still should trust him.

PachauriGate II – Pachauri also claimed he didn’t know before the 192-nation climate summit meeting in Copenhagen in December that the bogus Himalayan glacier claim was sheer speculation. But the London Times reported that a prominent science journalist said he had pointed out those errors in several e-mails and discussions to Pachauri, who “decided to overlook it.” Stonewalling? Cover up? Pachauri says he was “preoccupied.” Well, no sense spoiling the Copenhagen party, where countries like Pachauri’s India hoped to wrench billions from countries like the United States to combat global warming’s melting glaciers. Now there are calls for Pachauri’s resignation.

SternGate – One excuse for imposing worldwide climate crackdown has been the U.K.’s 2006 Stern Report, an economic doomsday prediction commissioned by the government. Now the U.K. Telegraph reports that quietly after publication “some of these predictions had been watered down because the scientific evidence on which they were based could not be verified.” Among original claims now deleted were that northwest Australia has had stronger typhoons in recent decades, and that southern Australia lost rainfall because of rising ocean temperatures. Exaggerated claims get headlines. Later, news reporters disclose the truth. Why is that?

SternGate II – A researcher now claims the Stern Report misquoted his work to suggest a firm link between global warming and more-frequent and severe floods and hurricanes. Robert Muir-Wood said his original research showed no such link. He accused Stern of “going far beyond what was an acceptable extrapolation of the evidence.” We’re shocked.

AmazonGate – The London Times exposed another shocker: the IPCC claim that global warming will wipe out rain forests was fraudulent, yet advanced as “peer-reveiwed” science. The Times said the assertion actually “was based on an unsubstantiated claim by green campaigners who had little scientific expertise,” “authored by two green activists” and lifted from a report from the World Wildlife Fund, an environmental pressure group. The “research” was based on a popular science magazine report that didn’t bother to assess rainfall. Instead, it looked at the impact of logging and burning. The original report suggested “up to 40 percent” of Brazilian rain forest was extremely sensitive to small reductions in the amount of rainfall, but the IPCC expanded that to cover the entire Amazon, the Times reported.

PeerReviewGate – The U.K. Sunday Telegraph has documented at least 16 nonpeer-reviewed reports (so far) from the advocacy group World Wildlife Fund that were used in the IPCC’s climate change bible, which calls for capping manmade greenhouse gases.

RussiaGate – Even when global warming alarmists base claims on scientific measurements, they’ve often had their finger on the scale. Russian think tank investigators evaluated thousands of documents and e-mails leaked from the East Anglia research center and concluded readings from the coldest regions of their nation had been omitted, driving average temperatures up about half a degree.

Russia-Gate II – Speaking of Russia, a presentation last October to the Geological Society of America showed how tree-ring data from Russia indicated cooling after 1961, but was deceptively truncated and only artfully discussed in IPCC publications. Well, at least the tree-ring data made it into the IPCC report, albeit disguised and misrepresented.

U.S.Gate – If Brits can’t be trusted, are Yanks more reliable? The U.S. National Climate Data Center has been manipulating weather data too, say computer expert E. Michael Smith and meteorologist Joesph D’Aleo. Forty years ago there were 6,000 surface-temperature measuring stations, but only 1,500 by 1990, which coincides with what global warming alarmists say was a record temperature increase. Most of the deleted stations were in colder regions, just as in the Russian case, resulting in misleading higher average temperatures.

IceGate – Hardly a continent has escaped global warming skewing. The IPCC based its findings of reductions in mountain ice in the Andes, Alps and in Africa on a feature story of climbers’ anecdotes in a popular mountaineering magazine, and a dissertation by a Switzerland university student, quoting mountain guides. Peer-reviewed? Hype? Worse?

ResearchGate – The global warming camp is reeling so much lately it must have seemed like a major victory when a Penn State University inquiry into climate scientist Michael Mann found no misconduct regarding three accusations of climate research impropriety. But the university did find “further investigation is warranted” to determine whether Mann engaged in actions that “seriously deviated from accepted practices for proposing, conducting or reporting research or other scholarly activities.” Being investigated for only one fraud is a global warming victory these days.

ReefGate – Let’s not forget the alleged link between climate change and coral reef degradation. The IPCC cited not peer-reviewed literature, but advocacy articles by Greenpeace, the publicity-hungry advocacy group, as its sole source for this claim.

AfricaGate – The IPCC claim that rising temperatures could cut in half agricultural yields in African countries turns out to have come from a 2003 paper published by a Canadian environmental think tank – not a peer-reviewed scientific journal.

DutchGate – The IPCC also claimed rising sea levels endanger the 55 percent of the Netherlands it says is below sea level. The portion of the Netherlands below sea level actually is 20 percent. The Dutch environment minister said she will no longer tolerate climate researchers’ errors.

AlaskaGate – Geologists for Space Studies in Geophysics and Oceanography and their U.S. and Canadian colleagues say previous studies largely overestimated by 40 percent Alaskan glacier loss for 40 years. This flawed data are fed into those computers to predict future warming.

Fold this column up and lay it next to your napkin the next time you have Al Gore or his ilk to dine. It should make interesting after-dinner conversation.

Still waiting for the mainstream media to wake up. ::)

http://www.ocregister.com/common/printer/view.php?db=ocregister&id=234092

Offline Glitch

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Re: Global warming ''consensus'' and you https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1263.msg26504#msg26504
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2010, 03:14:42 am »
While I'm sure hacked e-mails are the most accurate source, let's make a decision square.

Decision Square!If global warming is realIf it isn't
If we do something about global warmingWe save the world.  Yay!!!!!We cut back on air pollution, oil addiction, and generally make the world a better place.  Still yay!!!
If we don'tThe world ends OH NO!!!!!Nothing happens.

As you can see, the best options are doing something about global warming.

Daxx

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Re: Global warming ''consensus'' and you https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1263.msg27201#msg27201
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2010, 03:27:15 am »
Update many ''gates'' later:
That's nice, but that's ignoring the fact that most of those "-gates" have been subsequently found to be fabrications; delusional constructions of some conspiracy theorist's wishful thinking; opinion pieces written by skeptics; and cherry-picked errors made amongst a substantial base of literature. A couple of academics who feel badgered by continual FOI requests and a few questionable uses of grey literature does not an entire field discredit. In fact, it's amazing quite how little the skeptics have been able to dredge up from the supposed "smoking gun" of the emails and data.

I honestly can't even be bothered to run through that copy-and-pasted list to point out the myriad errors. It's ironic that before you turned up as a SPA I wasn't even following this field and didn't feel particularly strongly, but now my previous cursory examination appears to have been confirmed - skeptics will grasp at any straw they can in order to fight for their ideology.

PS. Gl1tch: you should probably not rely on what is essentially a version of Pascal's Wager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager) - it's usually considered to not be a valid argument.

Archeron

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Re: Global warming ''consensus'' and you https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1263.msg27257#msg27257
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2010, 12:05:54 pm »


HaHa, now every thing contradicting the governments, the U.N., greenpeace or the mainstream medias is now a conspiracy theorie.  Even backed by solid evidence- which you refuse the even consider looking at.
The credibility of the ipcc (and the man made global warming theorie) is sinking fast.
Even Phil Jones ( former head of the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia)
have to admit there has been no statistically significant warming since 1995.
http://joannenova.com.au/2010/02/shock-phil-jones-says-the-obvious-bbc-asks-real-questions/
Before climate gate most skeptics assumed the that the ipcc report was peer reviewed. But anyone ''could have typed "WWF" (which stands for the activist group, the World Wildlife Fund) into a search box and found the 16 distinct WWF citations in the IPCC's 2007 report. Within a few minutes she could also have found the eight Greenpeace papers listed.''
http://nofrakkingconsensus.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2010-02-03T10%3A22%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=10

How much lying can you withstand? How much tax  you want pay to those crooks?
How much cap and trade ''will save the earth'' from the non pollution of the CO2?
 
 

 

blarg: