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Daxx

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Climate change https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=395.msg3392#msg3392
« on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:49 pm »

I hate to get involved with topics like this, but here's a point of information: Global Warming is a misnomer. The effect that it really has is to make the climate more variable. Therefore, extraordinary temperature or weather changes in any direction could be attributed to climate change.

For example, the seas around Northern Europe are getting warmer, and species previously known only to live in warmer waters have moved northwards. However, should climate change cause the gulf stream to move, it's more than possible that Northern Europe could be plunged into seriously cold climate conditions. There are other examples of this which apply to other weather patterns.

Evil Hamster

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Climate change https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=395.msg3393#msg3393
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:49 pm »

Fact: In the last 44 years, several billion dollars per year have gone toward researching data about global warming.
Fact: There are over 80 million topics about it on the internet.
Fact: Around 50% of people in the U.S. and the UK Completely deny the fact, and believe that it's a hoax by environmentalists to take their fun away (Not the only reason, but one of them).

Who thinks this is a bit pathetic?
And despite the billions of wasted dollars- there is ZERO proof that human activity has any noticable effect on the environment. Sure we might have localized effects but it is the height of arrogance to assume humans can affect the entire planet.

The truth is- average temperatures have gone down over the last hundred years. But that's "global warming"  ;D

Al Gores "Theory of Everything":
If temperatures go up it's global warming
If temperatures go down it's global warming
If theres heavy rain it's global warming
If theres a drought it's global warming
If theres a lot of hurricanes it's global warming
If theres less hurricane activity than normal it's global warming
If it snows a lot it's global warming
If it doesn't snow it's global warming
Earthquakes? You got it! global warming!!

There's more but can't remember tham all off the top of my head...

lomus

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Climate change https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=395.msg3394#msg3394
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:49 pm »

Hmmmm....

Who cares?
Also:
1. HIV is a lie.
2. Americans never landed on the Moon.
3. ????
4. PROFIT


Climate change https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=395.msg3395#msg3395
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:49 pm »

Lol, my old Psychology teacher thinks that Global Warming is a lie. =/

wckz

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Climate change https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=395.msg3396#msg3396
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:49 pm »

Again, you're proving my point ;D

Also, even if global warming has only "localized" effects, you can't disregard its affect on ozone depletion...

Ozone depletes faster at cooler temperatures, and greenhouse gases trap heat below the ozone layer, letting less heat to interact with the ozone layer.

Look at this, http://www.ess-home.com/news/global-warming/ozone-depletion.asp

wckz

  • Guest
Climate change https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=395.msg3397#msg3397
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:49 pm »

Basically, it makes all climates more extreme.

wckz

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Climate change https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=395.msg3398#msg3398
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:49 pm »

Fact: In the last 44 years, several billion dollars per year have gone toward researching data about global warming.
Fact: There are over 80 million topics about it on the internet.
Fact: Around 50% of people in the U.S. and the UK Completely deny the fact, and believe that it's a hoax by environmentalists to take their fun away (Not the only reason, but one of them).

Who thinks this is a bit pathetic?

wckz

  • Guest
Climate change https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=395.msg3399#msg3399
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:49 pm »

Hmmmm....

Who cares?
Also:
1. HIV is a lie.
2. Americans never landed on the Moon.
3. ????
4. PROFIT

Perfect example of why the world is so crappy ;D
Also, I suppose everyone who lives on this planet should care...

brain9h

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Climate change https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=395.msg3635#msg3635
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:50 pm »

My own views on the subject are highly controversial, specially because my country, Brazil, is proud owner (TM) of the the amazonian rain forest (sarcasm intended), and also pioneer in many "green" thoughts and policies.

I could probably write 200 pages on the subject but since this is not my natural language I'll try to synthetize it, although I'm sure you guys will think I'm crazy or unfounded, when in reality I'm not.

First of all, I do not agree with 99% of the scientific studies relating how our environment, they are all bogus science mostly just made for the press, or simply scientific s*** produced by researchers who are paid by green-related organizations. As an example, I will NEVER trust an scientifically unsound article written by a Greenpeace-funded group of researchers from a famous US University that is published on National Geographic and then reproduced by many other papers and middle-class magazines. This is not true science, this is the positive feedback loop of people who manipulate the public opinion in order to acquire political power by the means of green-terror (claiming that we MUST care of the environment or we will be punished) and then using the acquired political influence to make governments (mostly) invest in research or environment-friendly-institutions that raise money from donations in general, both with the sole purpose to finance the production of written material which will only serve as propaganda to keep the political influence of those in power. This is nothing difference from a religious political party or a communist political party. Both claim they have solid bases, and both influence people by claiming some sort of "bad" scenario. I'm not going against communism here, I'm just making an analogy. Green people claim to have their ideas supported by science, when in fact it's just HIDDEN POLITICAL PROPAGANDA 99% of the time.

As our original poster WCZK very well mentioned, several billion dollars are spent to convince people that climatic problems are indeed real, true, but also true is that fact that several TRILLION dollars would be required to actually EDUCATE people so they could know for themselves that it is all propaganda. Unfortunately the education most people receive around the world is not enough to give them the ability to see such problems by themselves: apart from the fact that the world is majorly uneducated at all, those in the richer countries that do receive university-level education do not receive specific instruction and do not have any experience with earth sciences, math, physics, scientific methodologies and related sujects... people who human, social or medical sciences have zero capacity to see for themselves.

Given that, there are certain existential/moral/philosophical/social questions about the human exploration of our environment. Green propagandists usually skip this very important part and ASSUME these for granted, but I ask you: I do accept that our society (globally speaking) is degrading some world indexes, like let's say, ozone levels, forest coverage, CO2, but is that WRONG? Is it BAD? Isn't it NATURAL?

Is it wrong for a sovereign country to use his own land and convert it into education, health and better living conditions for its own people? Should a government let some of it's own people starve to death in order to protect the environment that the rich parcel of the population intends to use in the next 200 years? Why not kill trees and build nuclear plants so we can be rich and buy food for the people? To give education for the people? Freedom is only a true right if you have the means to enjoy it. If you have no food, no house, no house, no education, no culture, are you really free? It is VERY easy for the people that have everything to close their eyes for the social inequalities and choose to protect the trees in which their grand grand children will play ball, while people starve to death or die to illness. I for one cannot accept that as being the right thing to do.

Is it bad to cut trees? Is it bad to polute non-salty water? Is it bad to polute the air? True answers to those questions are usually extremely hard to find, if impossible. First, the scientific proof on the negative impact of some human activities on the environment is USUALLY pretty scarse. Second, the answer is never dicotomic. It involves listing for whom and in which external conditions (and they can be infinite) it would be bad, and in which conditions it would be true.

Let's ask, for example's sake: is it bad to cut trees? Usually no, despite what propaganda and bad science says. Trees are not responsible for our breathable air in global scale, though in local scale it is quite pleasant to breath fresh air, although this is far more dependent on sources of polution, than on trees. There's also the good feeling of being around trees, and how trees affect local temperature, raining, water supply, rain flow on hills and how that degrades soil, just to cite a few factors, but usually for urban areas you can CLEARLY say: YES it is ok to cut trees because they can be replanted.
(Did you know Rio de Janeiro has the largest urban forest in the world with huge biodiversity and rare species, and was  entirely planted? Used to be coffee plantation 150 years ago, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floresta_da_Tijuca)
Also, at the same time, it is BAD to cut trees on cities, you usually want them around, they give quality of life and many qualities to local environment. See, it's NOT a simple-minded answer "IT IS BAD TO CUT TREES", in fact not even a simple dicotomy it is, it is a very complicated matter. For most of these environment questions, usually the truth is on the opposite side of the propaganda.
(What about cutting trees in rural areas? Well, I'm totally in favour, just preserve the biodiversity and go for it if you have good social reasons. I for one if were president of Brazil I would cut all the amazon jungle if necessary to make land, jobs and riches for our millions and millions of extremely poor people that live here)

Third big question: Aren't the changes made by human society in the world landscape natural? First, some consideration about time: Earth is 5 billion years old, and still has 5 more billion years to go. Our civilization is just 10000 years old, and even if we destroyed all the trees and boiled all the water, they would all still return to normal, in time. Garbage goes away in time, same with radiation. Oil reappears. I know the same can't be said for heavier elements like gold, uranium, and others, but so what, they are not essential to life (in the broad sense: not just human). Unless we blew the moon, the earth, or somehow take one of those out of orbit, it is doubtful any claim that we are irreparably hurting the planet's ability to house life, if anything our civilization could be protecting our planet from destruction from asteroids (although I doubt of our capacity on that matter, it is at least hypothetical). Second, still about the naturality of human behavior: lions and zebras urinate and defecate on fresh water sources, so does humans. Why only our own activity is sometimes considered UNNATURAL? I'm not discussing if it harms the environment or not, that goes under the "is it bad" debate. I'm saying that polluting water sources is a natural animal behavior. Also, I know zebras do not build coal mines and do how burn fossil fuels, humans do, but does that make us less animals, and thus that make coal mining less natural than the behaviors that Zebras do? This is a hard debate I do not claim to own the true answer, but certainly this is not a simple YES/NO answer, and saying that all humans do is not natural is certainly fruit of blind green propaganda. Nature as many like to say is the whole ecosystem, we are animals, and our society just like bees and ants, has it's structure, it's way of working, and what humans do is mine, cut and burn.

I always look into those environmental issues with these critical eyes. The OP asked "Who thinks this is a bit pathetic?" (regarding people who still don't believe on climate change)

My short answer: I don't think it's pathetic. Half the world doesn't care about these matters, and the half that cares has no clue on how to tell right from from on the matter. I for one do not agree that CO2 levels are producing harsh climate changes, and even if they do, I don't care, its fine for countries to seek development. Climate changes can be adapted to, and in time, either we all adapt to its changes or we perish, and that is the true nature of life and evolution as we know it.

Daxx

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Climate change https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=395.msg3636#msg3636
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:50 pm »

It's often the most controversial topics that are the most accurate on Wikipedia. With hundreds of people watching them, every change gets scrutinised and constant argument leads to everything being sourced and cited properly. Occasionally you get ownership problems when there is a fairly obscure controversy, but if it's a mainstream topic like climate change it'll have too many people for that to be a problem.

It's the obscure biographies that you have to watch for. They're often filled with crap because people are malicious and no-one checks those pages.

Daxx

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Climate change https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=395.msg3637#msg3637
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:50 pm »

Posting links doesn't prove anything when those links don't actually have any evidence. Hard statistics, preferably well sourced, would be nice.

Daxx

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Climate change https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=395.msg3638#msg3638
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:50 pm »

most people don't believe the global warming myth [...] the vast majority of scientists say man-made climate change is a lie [...] The vast majority of scientists who believe in it are political scientists.
Do you have any proof of this conjecture?

 

blarg: