[POLL] Which Cards are Overpowered? 1.30

[glennfoo]

yup. i agree. with fire shield or rain of fire. hope is hopeless... and many other cards are anti hope too

[Absol]

yup. i agree. with fire shield or rain of fire. hope is hopeless... and many other cards are anti hope too

Quite an irony eh?

I figure i should drop this counterargument here, as Hope is certainly not OP. Quoted verbatim from the wiki.

One of the main mistakes most people do is considering certain cards OP, because a person (or AI) has defeated them using a deck based on that card. Let’s use, as an example, the Light shield named Hope:


Quite a lot of people have complained in the Light cards section about this card. I’ll quote a post made by somebody in this card’s thread (a little bit edited by me, because it was not very clear):  “I really have to agree that this card is OP.  I met a FFQ (Firefly queen) deck (well, based on it) which was using Owl’s Eye as creature control. He was also using the Hope shield, fueled by his unupped fireflies (as you might know, those generate Light quanta; in that certain deck, they were also generating quanta to actually play the shield as well as being Light emitting creatures, so the shield actually blocked high amount of damage) .  I had no means of killing the Queens that it had out, but I was good for ten turns, because I had enough heals to last me a long time. Anyways, it was pretty much an autowin for that guy. And to me that doesn’t seem fair or fun at all.  I knew I was going to lose and I had no means of winning, seeing as I had no way to get past the shield.”

His post truly seems to prove the card is OP. Complete shutdown, no way of dealing damage, is what happened to him. Clearly OP. What he didn’t think about is that he didn’t lose because Hope is OP, but because his opponent’s deck completely counters his. The thing is, many cards can counter Hope, and those cards are found in lots of  decks: Momentum, mass creature control (Rain of Fire, Plague, Thunderstorm, Pandemonium, Thorn Carapace, Fire Shield, Retrovirus (= upped Virus),  Flooding), single creature control (in case of Queens) (one, or a combination of these can kill/neutralize (even if only for some time) Queens, or kill the Light – emitting creatures (Lightning, Lobotomizer, Unstable Gas, Blue Nymph, Shockwave, Owl’s Eye, Parasite, Black Nymph, Liquid Shadow, Drain Life, Alfatoxin, Virus, Grey Nymph, Basilisk Blood, Auburn Nymph, to some extent Earthquake (stops you from playing it in the first place), Mutation, Chaos Seed, Maxwell’s Demon (after lowering it’s HP), Rage Potion, Re Nymph, Fire Bolt, Gravity Pull, Eternity, Rewind Time, Procrastination, Pharaoh, Otyugh, Scarab, Toadfish, Arctic Octopus, Min Flayer, Ice Bolt, Freeze, and, of course, all the mass creature control cards), Chrysaora (by poison) and Poison and Saphire Charger and Titan, because of their Momentum.

Now, let’s take what can be used to counter Sundials: Weapons (are not affected by it) (Lobotomizer, Owl’s Eye, Vampire Stiletto, Arsenic, Pulverizer, Discord, Fahrenheit, Titan, Druidic Staff, Morning Star, Eternity, Trident, Dagger, Short Sword, Hammer), Deflagration, Chrysaora (by poison),  Poison And Pulverizer’s ability.

So, now, by looking at the huge number of cards which can put an end to The Hope shield’s strength, compared to the small amount of cards countering Sundials, most of which are weapons which don’t really counter it, you can clearly see Hope is not OP. Yes, the cards countering the Sundial are still the same, but now you can’t argue it’s OP, because just waiting 6 turns for the chaining to end isn’t so bad, compared to waiting 12 turns, which is, usually, enough for the whole game.

Source: http://elementscommunity.org/wiki/articles/overpowered/
I also suggest people to read this first to know what is OP and what is not before you say that a certain card is OP.

You're welcome.

[ARTHANASIOS]

[Well and the opinion of EVERYONE ELSE, also based on our own experience, tells us hope is not OP as it has a good number of counters and having such a number of light emitting creatures that dont die at touch like RoL, is hard as hell and you need to make the whole deck around that. you may think hope is OP, but when everyone else says the opposite guess who am i gonna believe in

You can believe whoever you like, dear Poker Alho, and support whatever opinion you have and I respect other people opinions even when I disagree with them. However, I suggest better create an opinion of yours based on your experience rather than following the common opinion of things.
 By the way, according to the votes there are a lot of different points of view, since almost every kind of card has some votes on it. So I am not so sure that a common opinion of EVERYONE ELSE truly exists.
 Anyway, you can still believe whatever you want, I actually don't understand why many people here have become so mad about my opinions. Everyone here votes according to his/her beliefs and I have the guts to explain in detail myself instead of just voting and leave, so why such hate against me? And why Hope is included in the list if there is no possibility of being overpowered, dear Absol? I cannot certainly say a card is overpowered/not overpowered since everything I say is based on my experience (same goes on every person here) and, no offence, the list of Hope's counters can be said for almost every single deck.
* Creature destroying/damaging ruins every kind of deck, not just Hope-based deck.
* Everything that has to do about quantum sabotaging (Earthquake, Devourers etc.) is a counter on everything, not just Hope, since you cannot play anything. Actually, it is not a great counter for Hope, since the white mana it needs to be played can be given not from pillars (earthquake) but from light emmiting creatures (they produce 1 light quantum per turn). In theory, Hope costs 7 quantum, but since this quantum can be harvested by light emmiting creatures it is actually "cheaper" than it looks.
* Luciferin just for 2 light mana gives you 10 hp and bioluminencense (light-emmiting) to all your creatures without a skill, so even powerful creatures can buff up this shield.
* Momentum ruins every kind of shield, not just Hope.
* Blessing can easily buff up some of those weak bioluminesence creatures.
* Pandemonium may be the most effective card against Hope, since it really messes up every creature, based on pure, chaotic luck. That's why I believe it needs a little less randomness.
* I don't believe Hope is TOTALLY unbalanced, but I really think it is SLIGHTLY broken. It is my personal opinion supported by my facts and my gaming experience, but I also respect your different opinions if they're also supported by facts and experience.

[Absol]

[Well and the opinion of EVERYONE ELSE, also based on our own experience, tells us hope is not OP as it has a good number of counters and having such a number of light emitting creatures that dont die at touch like RoL, is hard as hell and you need to make the whole deck around that. you may think hope is OP, but when everyone else says the opposite guess who am i gonna believe in

You can believe whoever you like, dear Poker Alho, and support whatever opinion you have and I respect other people opinions even when I disagree with them. However, I suggest better create an opinion of yours based on your experience rather than following the common opinion of things.
 By the way, according to the votes there are a lot of different points of view, since almost every kind of card has some votes on it. So I am not so sure that a common opinion of EVERYONE ELSE truly exists. Check SoSa and Dim shield. Which is not that OP anyway.
 Anyway, you can still believe whatever you want, I actually don't understand why many people here have become so mad about my opinions. Not mad, you're the one talking with a high tension. Everyone here votes according to his/her beliefs and I have the guts to explain in detail myself instead of just voting and leave, so why such hate against me? And why Hope is included in the list if there is no possibility of being overpowered, dear Absol? Because only card with <1% are eliminated from the poll. That's the rule. Also your "dear" is creeping me. I cannot certainly say a card is overpowered/not overpowered since everything I say is based on my experience (same goes on every person here) OP or not OP is not based on opinion nor personal experience, it's based on the cards. If the card shifts metagame considerably so it consists of Hope and anti-Hope, then it's OP. Which is not the case. and, no offence, the list of Hope's counters can be said for almost every single deck. Which actually makes every deck as of now more or less balanced.
* Creature destroying/damaging ruins every kind of deck, not just Hope-based deck.
* Everything that has to do about quantum sabotaging (Earthquake, Devourers etc.) is a counter on everything, not just Hope, since you cannot play anything. Not pillarless deck like Immorush, nor Speedbow to an extent. Actually, it is not a great counter for Hope, since the white mana it needs to be played can be given not from pillars (earthquake) but from light emmiting creatures (they produce 1 light quantum per turn). In theory, Hope costs 7 quantum, but since this quantum can be harvested by light emmiting creatures it is actually "cheaper" than it looks.
* Luciferin just for 2 light mana gives you 10 hp and bioluminencense (light-emmiting) to all your creatures without a skill, so even powerful creatures can buff up this shield. Only after you have decent defense up, though, so by that point, it no longer matters.
* Momentum ruins every kind of shield, not just Hope.
* Blessing can easily buff up some of those weak bioluminesence creatures.
* Pandemonium may be the most effective card against Hope, since it really messes up every creature, based on pure, chaotic luck. That's why I believe it needs a little less randomness. What's most effective is Lightning Storm. One and bye to all RoL.
* I don't believe Hope is TOTALLY unbalanced, but I really think it is SLIGHTLY broken. It is my personal opinion supported by my facts and my gaming experience, but I also respect your different opinions if they're also supported by facts and experience. Read below.
If Hope can be cancelled out by the same strategy to cancel almost other decks, that shows that Hope is not that OP.

Hope is one of the most broken shields in the game.

Most broken = slightly broken.
Also potentially block 23 damage =/= is blocking 23 damage. Put all 6 of the dragons and you have the deck with most potential damage. Apparently 6*12 = 72, so put 5 of every dragons and you have the most potentially damaging deck ever. Of course, it's inoperable without quanta, in the same way that Hope is inoperable without RoL / Firefly.

Good thing that Ruby Dragon is not on that list.

[ARTHANASIOS]

First of all, I am sorry if I seem talking to a high tension. About the "dear" thing, I often use this word, this is just my type and yes, in my case most broken = slighly broken, since I believe Elements overall is a pretty well-balanced game (some other shields are also a little broken, but less broken than Hope, just my opinion). Let me say a few other things to support my argument:
* Lightning Storm can only kill Ray of Lights, not Fireflies or any other "healthier" creature with Luciferin casted upon it.
* Luciferin can help even in early game, since it is cheap and it also heals.
* Let's study the light-emmiting (bioluminescense) creatures a little:
 Ray of Light: A free 1/1 airborne creature which generates 1  per turn.
 Ray of Light with Hope: A free 1/1 airborne creature which generates 1  per turn AND strengthens your shield by 1.
 Firefly: A 3  3/2 airborne creature which generates 1  per turn.
 Firefly with Hope: A 3  3/2 airborne creature which generates 1  per turn AND strengthens your shield by 1.
 When Hope is on the field, just three RoL or Fireflies make it to absorb 3 damage per hit. Just explain to me, isn't this a little too much for a shield? If we exclude spells which damage all of the creatures at once and include only spells/abilities that harm a single creature at a time, then we will possibly have a shield with 3-4 damage absorption for most of the game, let alone the fact the same creatures which strengthen the shield will provide the quantum for stronger light creatures to come by. And I don't want to imagine the player applying Luciferin to these stronger creatures, healing himself/herself by 10, increasing his light mana generation by 1 per turn and strengthening his shield by 1. Isn't this a little (just a little) overpowered?

[Jenkar]

Diamond shield is way faster, doesn't require creatures, costs less, and has 3 damage resistance.

Also, keep in mind that you need to put your whole deck around hope for it to have any value. This means that your deck is very fragile to any hope counter, because it destroys your strategy. On the other hand, shields like fog are added in most decks just for a bit of extra defense, which means that even if you get a fog counter (say, chargers), you are near hopeless.

[Poker Alho]

[Well and the opinion of EVERYONE ELSE, also based on our own experience, tells us hope is not OP as it has a good number of counters and having such a number of light emitting creatures that dont die at touch like RoL, is hard as hell and you need to make the whole deck around that. you may think hope is OP, but when everyone else says the opposite guess who am i gonna believe in

You can believe whoever you like, dear Poker Alho, and support whatever opinion you have and I respect other people opinions even when I disagree with them. However, I suggest better create an opinion of yours based on your experience rather than following the common opinion of things.
 By the way, according to the votes there are a lot of different points of view, since almost every kind of card has some votes on it. So I am not so sure that a common opinion of EVERYONE ELSE truly exists. Check SoSa and Dim shield. Which is not that OP anyway.
 Anyway, you can still believe whatever you want, I actually don't understand why many people here have become so mad about my opinions. Not mad, you're the one talking with a high tension. Everyone here votes according to his/her beliefs and I have the guts to explain in detail myself instead of just voting and leave, so why such hate against me? And why Hope is included in the list if there is no possibility of being overpowered, dear Absol? Because only card with <1% are eliminated from the poll. That's the rule. Also your "dear" is creeping me. I cannot certainly say a card is overpowered/not overpowered since everything I say is based on my experience (same goes on every person here) OP or not OP is not based on opinion nor personal experience, it's based on the cards. If the card shifts metagame considerably so it consists of Hope and anti-Hope, then it's OP. Which is not the case. and, no offence, the list of Hope's counters can be said for almost every single deck. Which actually makes every deck as of now more or less balanced.
* Creature destroying/damaging ruins every kind of deck, not just Hope-based deck.
* Everything that has to do about quantum sabotaging (Earthquake, Devourers etc.) is a counter on everything, not just Hope, since you cannot play anything. Not pillarless deck like Immorush, nor Speedbow to an extent. Actually, it is not a great counter for Hope, since the white mana it needs to be played can be given not from pillars (earthquake) but from light emmiting creatures (they produce 1 light quantum per turn). In theory, Hope costs 7 quantum, but since this quantum can be harvested by light emmiting creatures it is actually "cheaper" than it looks.
* Luciferin just for 2 light mana gives you 10 hp and bioluminencense (light-emmiting) to all your creatures without a skill, so even powerful creatures can buff up this shield. Only after you have decent defense up, though, so by that point, it no longer matters.
* Momentum ruins every kind of shield, not just Hope.
* Blessing can easily buff up some of those weak bioluminesence creatures.
* Pandemonium may be the most effective card against Hope, since it really messes up every creature, based on pure, chaotic luck. That's why I believe it needs a little less randomness. What's most effective is Lightning Storm. One and bye to all RoL.
* I don't believe Hope is TOTALLY unbalanced, but I really think it is SLIGHTLY broken. It is my personal opinion supported by my facts and my gaming experience, but I also respect your different opinions if they're also supported by facts and experience. Read below.
If Hope can be cancelled out by the same strategy to cancel almost other decks, that shows that Hope is not that OP.

Hope is one of the most broken shields in the game.

Most broken = slightly broken.
Also potentially block 23 damage =/= is blocking 23 damage. Put all 6 of the dragons and you have the deck with most potential damage. Apparently 6*12 = 72, so put 5 of every dragons and you have the most potentially damaging deck ever. Of course, it's inoperable without quanta, in the same way that Hope is inoperable without RoL / Firefly.

Good thing that Ruby Dragon is not on that list.

my words exactly and the same about what Jenkars said

[ARTHANASIOS]

Diamond shield is way faster, doesn't require creatures, costs less, and has 3 damage resistance.

Also, keep in mind that you need to put your whole deck around hope for it to have any value. This means that your deck is very fragile to any hope counter, because it destroys your strategy. On the other hand, shields like fog are added in most decks just for a bit of extra defense, which means that even if you get a fog counter (say, chargers), you are near hopeless.

Dear Jenkar, I understand what you say about here, but keep in mind the following:
1) Fog Shield and a few other shields (Dusk Mantle, Thorn Carapace) are relying on luck factor to succeed, while others (like Hope) do not rely on that (they block you 100% of the time).
2) Diamond Shield is the upgraded version of Titanium Shield; upgraded Hope also blocks 1 more damage. So, an upgraded Hope would block a 4-5 damage in average (I know this is relative, since Hope can, according to circumstances, block much more or much less damage per turn).
3) Hope only theoritically costs more than Diamond shield because of a simple reason; light-emmiting creatures generate 1 light quantum per turn, so Hope can easily be paid by them either partially or completely.
4) Luciferin gives you the opportunity to include powerful vanilla creatures in your deck and buff them with bioluminescense (green creatures and dragons are a very good choice here). Creatures that powerful will withstand mass damage spells (except from Pandemonium which will often replace their light-emmiting ability with something else, if not completely destroying them).
 Anyway, I may be totally wrong and maybe you're right, I can't say for sure...

[omegareaper7]

3) Hope only theoritically costs more than Diamond shield because of a simple reason; light-emmiting creatures generate 1 light quantum per turn, so Hope can easily be paid by them either partially or completely.

Since when is 6 being less then 7 a theory? Much less the 8 for the upped version.  If you include how much deck space it takes, diamonds still wins just about every time.

[Jenkar]

1) Yes. They have different strengths. The strength of hope (potential of high damage block) is compensated by its weakness (creature control, need to base your deck around it). The only other shields like that that i can think of on top of my head are gravity, dissipation & dimensional shields. Other shield generally aren't ''i base my deck around this (they are moderately strong with little-none drawbacks).

2) Average? false. You're expecting that your opponent sits there while you put up light creatures? Nah, not gonna happen. Also, keep in mind that those light emitting creatures don't magically appear when you put down hope. See answer to 4.

3) I can put gemfinders in my deck to get moar earth quantum. Moot point.

4) The main problem with luciferin /hope decks is that it's combo based. This is true for any hope deck, but with luciferin it just gets worse.
The problem (& one of the weakness of hope) is that you need to have light emitting creatures for it to be of any use. You can't just put 6 RoL & 1 hope and expect to have them in starting hand. This gets worse with luci because you need to : draw the creatures, play them (strong defense creatures usually cost a lot), then draw luci & hope. Generally, by the time you do this, either your opponent has crushed you because he's using a rush, or is in control because he's using a stall.

[ARTHANASIOS]

1) Yes. They have different strengths. The strength of hope (potential of high damage block) is compensated by its weakness (creature control, need to base your deck around it). The only other shields like that that i can think of on top of my head are gravity, dissipation & dimensional shields. Other shield generally aren't ''i base my deck around this (they are moderately strong with little-none drawbacks).

2) Average? false. You're expecting that your opponent sits there while you put up light creatures? Nah, not gonna happen. Also, keep in mind that those light emitting creatures don't magically appear when you put down hope. See answer to 4.

3) I can put gemfinders in my deck to get moar earth quantum. Moot point.

4) The main problem with luciferin /hope decks is that it's combo based. This is true for any hope deck, but with luciferin it just gets worse.
The problem (& one of the weakness of hope) is that you need to have light emitting creatures for it to be of any use. You can't just put 6 RoL & 1 hope and expect to have them in starting hand. This gets worse with luci because you need to : draw the creatures, play them (strong defense creatures usually cost a lot), then draw luci & hope. Generally, by the time you do this, either your opponent has crushed you because he's using a rush, or is in control because he's using a stall.

 Dear Jenkai, you generally may know this game better than me, however allow me to correct some points here:
1) Yes. They have different strengths. I totally agree here.
2) Average is something relative when you deal with Hope, that's true, but even when dealing with light-emmiting creatures a number of 3 RoL or Fireflies are generally easy to come by. Not always, sometimes is easier, sometimes harder, depending to what deck are you facing, but in order to compare this shield with others we have to conclude into an average shielding number. I think 3 is a reasonable number. If you think I am wrong, please suggest another number which you think is an average for the Hope shield.
3) Yes, but Gnomes don't strengthen your Diamond shield, do they?
4) Every deck is combo based. You must select an element(s), a theme, a strategy, a combo. Even if you think Hope is not OP, this is not a very conviencing argument, is it?

[Jenkar]

1) Yes. They have different strengths. The strength of hope (potential of high damage block) is compensated by its weakness (creature control, need to base your deck around it). The only other shields like that that i can think of on top of my head are gravity, dissipation & dimensional shields. Other shield generally aren't ''i base my deck around this (they are moderately strong with little-none drawbacks).

2) Average? false. You're expecting that your opponent sits there while you put up light creatures? Nah, not gonna happen. Also, keep in mind that those light emitting creatures don't magically appear when you put down hope. See answer to 4.

3) I can put gemfinders in my deck to get moar earth quantum. Moot point.

4) The main problem with luciferin /hope decks is that it's combo based. This is true for any hope deck, but with luciferin it just gets worse.
The problem (& one of the weakness of hope) is that you need to have light emitting creatures for it to be of any use. You can't just put 6 RoL & 1 hope and expect to have them in starting hand. This gets worse with luci because you need to : draw the creatures, play them (strong defense creatures usually cost a lot), then draw luci & hope. Generally, by the time you do this, either your opponent has crushed you because he's using a rush, or is in control because he's using a stall.

 Dear Jenkai, you generally may know this game better than me, however allow me to correct some points here:
1) Yes. They have different strengths. I totally agree here.
2) Average is something relative when you deal with Hope, that's true, but even when dealing with light-emmiting creatures a number of 3 RoL or Fireflies are generally easy to come by. Not always, sometimes is easier, sometimes harder, depending to what deck are you facing, but in order to compare this shield with others we have to conclude into an average shielding number. I think 3 is a reasonable number. If you think I am wrong, please suggest another number which you think is an average for the Hope shield.
3) Yes, but Gnomes don't strengthen your Diamond shield, do they?
4) Every deck is combo based. You must select an element(s), a theme, a strategy, a combo. Even if you think Hope is not OP, this is not a very conviencing argument, is it?

2) There are two problems in this line of argument.
a) When. I assume you're placing yourself midgame, with 3 RoLs in a non-fractal based deck (correct if i'm wrong).
b) What your opponent does. if your opponent plays a CC deck, you won't have a single one down.
3) No, the argument was based on speed of play, here, not strength of shield.
4) And no. you must select an element and a strategy(ies), and that's all. Combo can be taken but it's optionnal. You also missed : synergy, imo.
Take

by Jenkar

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4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4vh 4vh 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 52q 52q 55q 55q 590 590 590 590 590 5c1 5c1 5f6 5f6 5i7 5og 5og 61q 61q 8pm

Rush, offense offense offense. Bare minimum of cards to allow you to bypass things that bother you/slow opponent. There is no combo. Every card has a role, but you don't need one to play another (save quantum).

Second deck example :

by Jenkar

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52o 52o 52o 52o 52o 52o 52q 52q 52q 52r 52r 52r 52r 52t 52t 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 622 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 8pk

Synergy, between bonewall & lightning. It's not a combo because you don't need one to play the other, but it's a synergy because they work better together.

Third :

by Jenkar

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5um 5um 5um 5um 5up 5up 5up 5uq 5uq 5ut 5ut 5ut 606 606 606 606 606 606 606 606 606 606 606 61q 61q 61u 622 622 622 622 8pu

Combo. You play fractal on devourers, and *need* them (or vamps) to fractal.

My point is, all hope decks are of the third kind. Combo decks have the caracteristic of being very fragile, due to not drawing cards you need early, or disruption by the opponent's deck. They're the decks that'd be too strong if your opponent is a sandbag, but they aren't