Poll

How should the shard be nerfed?

The shard is balanced already
25 (31.6%)
Make attack boost part of the status effect
6 (7.6%)
Reduce the damage increase
25 (31.6%)
Increase the cost
9 (11.4%)
Other (please suggest)
14 (17.7%)

Total Members Voted: 79

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Offline pulli23

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Re: Shard of Wisdom https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40392.msg1054074#msg1054074
« Reply #156 on: March 25, 2013, 10:44:45 am »
In light of making reflection more "useful": well it would be much easier if the shield had a "bonus" of giving "reflection" - not that the shield's main point is reflecting. In that case you could use reflection shields also decently against non-spell-based decks.
Are you suggesting:

A) A card balanced as if it did not have reflection but with reflection added to it?
Then the card is more powerful that its cost. Aka Imbalanced

B) A card with a non reflection effect but balanced understanding it has the reflection ability?
Might not work. See Emerald Shield.

I'm going for
C) only slightly UP when no reflection - it does work without it. But reflection itself made slightly weaker (ie: only reflect 1/2th of the damage) as to not counter decks hard, instead just give the "edge" against spell based decks. - winrate goes from 50/50 with another shield to say 60/40 when this shield is in place.

But this was just an example of how I think balancing should work...

Offline boboexe

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Re: Shard of Wisdom https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40392.msg1054946#msg1054946
« Reply #157 on: March 28, 2013, 02:15:11 pm »
Quote
How do your normal PvP experiences relate to my theory about control vs control in normal PvP?

Your theory about copntrol vs control didnt fit in this topic from the very beginning. Monoaether + SoW is direct damage not control. (except lobotomizer, which is not a vital ingredient )

 Outdamaging a direct damage deck and outdamaging control is a different story, so I really fail to understand whats the use of ur theory for this specific topic.

Personal experience is more valuable than theory. I have played enough arena matches to make reasonable statements about the current  arena meta. The use of a card is determined by the players behavior which itself is shaped by the  metagame. SoW card can not be used efficiently  outside of mono aether.
 (and perhaps morning star reanimate wep)

If theory and reality drift away the theory becomes worthless.

Quote
In light of making reflection more "useful": well it would be much easier if the shield had a "bonus" of giving "reflection" - not that the shield's main point is reflecting. In that case you could use reflection shields also decently against non-spell-based decks.

I completely agree with pully23 here and I dont agree with ur logic (which is hard to grasp at least for me) .  Why should I (as long as I dont play rainbow)  integrate shields from other elements in my deck, if my native elements shields are highly superior and  not situational. 

In fact why should any mono or duo, which doesnt include light and life in his natural asortment use these 2 shields if u have bone, phase , perma , chaos etc.

Quote
This was the rational. We agree it is not an ideal solution.

Sorry but introducing a horribly broken mechanic which itself is restricted to 99% one specific element to justify the existence of 2 cards which are like u expressed "marginalized" is just another 0815 mistake many cardgames make.

Quote
MonoAether before SoW was a good example of a deck that gained abnormal advantage from Arena.

If u read this, pls explain this statement, because it doesnt make any sense to me.

« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 02:27:24 pm by boboexe »

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Re: Shard of Wisdom https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40392.msg1054991#msg1054991
« Reply #158 on: March 28, 2013, 05:48:05 pm »
Quote
MonoAether before SoW was a good example of a deck that gained abnormal advantage from Arena.

If u read this, pls explain this statement, because it doesnt make any sense to me.
Arena is a different format than normal PvP. These differences (the FG abilities) favor some effects/strategies/combos more than others. There is a normal/average amount that a deck benefits per level in arena. Decks that gain more benefit per level have an abnormal advantage.

Potential damage per turn increases as the game goes on. Thus Dimensional Shields do not scale linearly in value. 6 Dimensional Shields are more than 6 times as beneficial as 1 Dimensional Shield. 12 Dimensional Shields are more than 2 times as beneficial as 6 Dimensional Shields. Thus the Dexterity Arena ability gives Mono Aether an abnormal advantage. (Dexterity + Dimensional Shields predated Shard of Wisdom)

Abnormal advantage is a flaw in the current level prices for the abilities in Arena. If an imbalance appears in Arena but not in normal PvP then the imbalance is in the ability system not in the cards. However if the imbalance appears in normal PvP then the imbalance is in the card.

Quote
How do your normal PvP experiences relate to my theory about control vs control in normal PvP?

Your theory about copntrol vs control didnt fit in this topic from the very beginning. Monoaether + SoW is direct damage not control. (except lobotomizer, which is not a vital ingredient )
I consider any deck with the following to be a control deck using the Aggro,Control,Combo model:
a majority of its resources and efforts put into active or passive defenses [Dimensional Shields]
and a steady sure win condition that is not card intensive [Immaterial creatures]

Back to my question here:
Since Arena experience with MonoAether (preSoW) revealed abnormal advantage, Arena is not a good test to measure the balance implication of additions to MonoAether. Thus what do your normal PvP experiences tell you about the outrush maneuver?

Quote
In light of making reflection more "useful": well it would be much easier if the shield had a "bonus" of giving "reflection" - not that the shield's main point is reflecting. In that case you could use reflection shields also decently against non-spell-based decks.

I completely agree with pully23 here and I dont agree with ur logic (which is hard to grasp at least for me) .  Why should I (as long as I dont play rainbow)  integrate shields from other elements in my deck, if my native elements shields are highly superior and  not situational. 

In fact why should any mono or duo, which doesnt include light and life in his natural asortment use these 2 shields if u have bone, phase , perma , chaos etc.

Quote
This was the rational. We agree it is not an ideal solution.

Sorry but introducing a horribly broken mechanic which itself is restricted to 99% one specific element to justify the existence of 2 cards which are like u expressed "marginalized" is just another 0815 mistake many cardgames make.
I am sorry I was being unclear here. However a quick summary would be:
We both agree that adding Reflection to the game (as it is) was a bad move.
I am pointing out that Wisdom was added to help reduce the problem of Reflection. Thus I think it is unfair to criticize Wisdom for the faults of Reflection.
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Offline Ghaladh

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Re: [Official] Shard of Wisdom | Shard of Wisdom https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40392.msg1195584#msg1195584
« Reply #159 on: July 05, 2015, 04:08:30 pm »
There is no defense against an Immaterial creature powered by SoW. This combination is game-breaking. Same goes for Psions or any creature with momentum covered by Quint. I'd say that to obtain balance, we shouldn't allow shield ignoring effects and immateriality to act together. One effect should eliminate the other. There is no other combination in the game that can't be countered, I don't see why this thing must exist.

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Re: [Official] Shard of Wisdom | Shard of Wisdom https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40392.msg1195585#msg1195585
« Reply #160 on: July 05, 2015, 04:11:58 pm »
There is no defense against an Immaterial creature powered by SoW. This combination is game-breaking. Same goes for Psions or any creature with momentum covered by Quint. I'd say that to obtain balance, we shouldn't allow shield ignoring effects and immateriality to act together. One effect should eliminate the other. There is no other combination in the game that can't be countered, I don't see why this thing must exist.

Reflecting shields counter this pretty well. Note that Momentum won't protect a spell dealing creature from a reflecting shield. Also, SoW is a pretty slow mechanic.
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Offline Ghaladh

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Re: [Official] Shard of Wisdom | Shard of Wisdom https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40392.msg1195592#msg1195592
« Reply #161 on: July 05, 2015, 04:34:13 pm »
There is no defense against an Immaterial creature powered by SoW. This combination is game-breaking. Same goes for Psions or any creature with momentum covered by Quint. I'd say that to obtain balance, we shouldn't allow shield ignoring effects and immateriality to act together. One effect should eliminate the other. There is no other combination in the game that can't be countered, I don't see why this thing must exist.

Reflecting shields counter this pretty well. Note that Momentum won't protect a spell dealing creature from a reflecting shield. Also, SoW is a pretty slow mechanic.
Silly me, I didn't think of reflecting shield. That invalidates my argument. However, Momentum and Quint are still OP, but that's not the right thread to discuss this.

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Re: [Official] Shard of Wisdom | Shard of Wisdom https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40392.msg1195654#msg1195654
« Reply #162 on: July 05, 2015, 10:16:23 pm »
There is no defense against an Immaterial creature powered by SoW. This combination is game-breaking. Same goes for Psions or any creature with momentum covered by Quint. I'd say that to obtain balance, we shouldn't allow shield ignoring effects and immateriality to act together. One effect should eliminate the other. There is no other combination in the game that can't be countered, I don't see why this thing must exist.

Reflecting shields counter this pretty well. Note that Momentum won't protect a spell dealing creature from a reflecting shield. Also, SoW is a pretty slow mechanic.
Silly me, I didn't think of reflecting shield. That invalidates my argument. However, Momentum and Quint are still OP, but that's not the right thread to discuss this.
Darkness does not have a shield that works against Wisdom but it can counter Wisdom with healing in the form of Vampires or quanta denial in the form of Pests. This is also applicable for Momentum and Quint.
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Offline dawn to dusk

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Re: [Official] Shard of Wisdom | Shard of Wisdom https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40392.msg1195775#msg1195775
« Reply #163 on: July 06, 2015, 06:47:50 am »
momentum and quint is a 3 card combo. you will waste most of your deck solely on this combo, just so you can have 6 immaterial creatures bypassing shields. not to mention gravity creatures dont have much attack and the only aether creature that can be affected is phase spider/recluse. and in that case, using SoW quint would be better

Offline Ghaladh

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Re: [Official] Shard of Wisdom | Shard of Wisdom https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40392.msg1195782#msg1195782
« Reply #164 on: July 06, 2015, 12:20:06 pm »
momentum and quint is a 3 card combo. you will waste most of your deck solely on this combo, just so you can have 6 immaterial creatures bypassing shields. not to mention gravity creatures dont have much attack and the only aether creature that can be affected is phase spider/recluse. and in that case, using SoW quint would be better
I was thinking about Chargers, that already possess the momentum skill. However all of those discussions are moot, since the developer has abandoned the game and there is no hope to see any change or update. How sad  :(

Offline omegareaper7

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Re: [Official] Shard of Wisdom | Shard of Wisdom https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40392.msg1195857#msg1195857
« Reply #165 on: July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pm »
There is no defense against an Immaterial creature powered by SoW. This combination is game-breaking. Same goes for Psions or any creature with momentum covered by Quint. I'd say that to obtain balance, we shouldn't allow shield ignoring effects and immateriality to act together. One effect should eliminate the other. There is no other combination in the game that can't be countered, I don't see why this thing must exist.

Reflecting shields counter this pretty well. Note that Momentum won't protect a spell dealing creature from a reflecting shield. Also, SoW is a pretty slow mechanic.
Silly me, I didn't think of reflecting shield. That invalidates my argument. However, Momentum and Quint are still OP, but that's not the right thread to discuss this.
Neither momentum nor wisdom are overpowered. Please, provide examples.
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Re: [Official] Shard of Wisdom | Shard of Wisdom https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40392.msg1195905#msg1195905
« Reply #166 on: July 07, 2015, 06:05:52 am »
There is no defense against an Immaterial creature powered by SoW. This combination is game-breaking. Same goes for Psions or any creature with momentum covered by Quint. I'd say that to obtain balance, we shouldn't allow shield ignoring effects and immateriality to act together. One effect should eliminate the other. There is no other combination in the game that can't be countered, I don't see why this thing must exist.

Reflecting shields counter this pretty well. Note that Momentum won't protect a spell dealing creature from a reflecting shield. Also, SoW is a pretty slow mechanic.
Silly me, I didn't think of reflecting shield. That invalidates my argument. However, Momentum and Quint are still OP, but that's not the right thread to discuss this.
Neither momentum nor wisdom are overpowered. Please, provide examples.
I am talking about the interaction between a quinted creature with momentum. Practically an unstoppable force against which there is no direct defense. You can only heal the damage it does to you or outdamage the opponent.

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Re: [Official] Shard of Wisdom | Shard of Wisdom https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40392.msg1195961#msg1195961
« Reply #167 on: July 07, 2015, 04:15:56 pm »
3 card combo is hardly unstoppable. Not very hard to out rush combos like that if they aren't strong denial.
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