*Author

Offline Cheesy111Topic starter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1517
  • Reputation Power: 19
  • Cheesy111 is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.Cheesy111 is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.Cheesy111 is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.
  • New to Elements
  • Awards: Battle League 2/2014 1st PlaceWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeBattle League 3/2012 2nd PlaceWeekly Tournament WinnerBeginners League 2/2012 2nd Place
Re: Nerf Shard of Patience. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41406.msg513579#msg513579
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2012, 08:36:41 pm »
So far I've yet to see a presented problem; only explanations why SoP is even usable in the first place.

"The problem is that this single card acts as a stallbreaker in and of itself." This is, of course, false. Just like Fractal, which breaks stalls a lot better due to not being vulnerable to either CC or PC (but is vulnerable to QC), it requires good enough creatures. Too low HP and you -should- pay for it, unless your opponent is a dunce.

So the only argument left that bothers me is how it interacts with Burrow. I agree that's a powerful mechanic, solely because of how good SoFo Grabbows and other speedbows are. I wouldn't mind if it changed, even though Nova remains the fundamental problem at hand.

In the end, this card isn't close to OP, but I know you mostly started this topic on principle because you want to balance all cards, one at a time. My response to that was that it'd take way too long. Zanz adds new cards to change the meta instead for a reason. In this case we need more PC, but that was already true before SoP anyway. That explains my vote, of course (add more PC).

I would rather face Fractal with any of my stalls than SoP, because Fractal decks still rely on doing damage through creatures that attack with reasonable attack power, which is what stalls primarily defend against.   Sundial, Sanctuary, SoG, SoSac, Miracle, Stone Skin - all of these powerful stalling tools rely on having a chance to work, while a SoP user can simply OTK you no matter how much HP you have.  Fractal isn't vulnerable to single-target CC or PC, but it is defensible.  You can heal through a barrage of earth dragons with sosac, stall them with sundials, use Stone Skin to keep your maximum HP high and Miracle when you're getting low, use Procrastination to delay them to give you time to heal up.  You can't do any of that with a SoP on a field of burrowed Shriekers waiting to pop up and OTK you.  SoP, in a single card, destroys healing-based stalls.  And that is far too powerful for a single card in my opinion.   

Offline Higurashi

  • Administrator
  • ********
  • Posts: 7835
  • Country: no
  • Reputation Power: 103
  • Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Higurashi is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • Æther in Æternum enim Æquilibrio
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 15th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 14th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 13th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 12th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 11th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 10th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 9th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 8th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 7th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 6th Birthday CakeWinner of Team PvP #6Slice of Elements 5th Birthday CakeWeekly Tournament WinnerFalse Gods Competition: Reloaded - WinnerSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake4th Trials - Master of Aether3rd Trials - Master of AetherWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday Cake
Re: Nerf Shard of Patience. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41406.msg513582#msg513582
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2012, 08:42:10 pm »
You're listing counters to Fractal as if it was any different with SoP. It's easier to counter SoP and requires less of both cards, resources and turns. CC is essential in a stall (and all stalls can have it), and PC is preferable.

SoP still doesn't destroy anything as a single card. You need creatures.

From what I can tell, you have three issues with it: it can OTK stalls, it counters CC/PC-less stalls (much like Fractal), and it works on Shriekers. tbh, CC/PC-less stalls deserve to lose, and having counters to them isn't a bad thing.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 08:44:37 pm by Higurashi »
:aether  http://elementscommunity.org/forum/guilds/991-thunderbolts-ho!-991/ :aether
Aether is the prime Element present in all things, providing space, connection and balance for all Elements to exist.
Aether represents the sense of joy and union, and the ultimate potential of all things.

Offline Ilias22

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 328
  • Reputation Power: 5
  • Ilias22 is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • Ice dragon
Re: Nerf Shard of Patience. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41406.msg531857#msg531857
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2012, 07:21:27 am »
It needs a buff not a nurf for me!
:water :water :water

Offline rosutosefi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 727
  • Reputation Power: 10
  • rosutosefi is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.rosutosefi is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.
  • Dead.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 2nd Birthday Cake
Re: Nerf Shard of Patience. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41406.msg533687#msg533687
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2012, 12:07:22 pm »
I have not visited this thread for a long time, but here goes:

I have already stated why this needs a nerf, because this card is already comparable to Nightfall even in use outside water. It definitely is strong when placed in water decks, and even if you will say that water decks need this card to be competitive, you can easily say that most of the decks power will most likely come from this. If you will not nerf an overpowered card because it is balanced enough in the decks it is applicable on, then you are only stopping the necessary buffs for the cards that go along with this. Keeping this strong to make water decks balanced will only hinder possible development for the cards as these will only serve as a "quick fix" and will then forse all water decks with creatures to use this. The same can be said for Shard of Wisdom and Shard of Freedom. Now I must ask: Why in the world would it need a buff?

Higs, you do need creatures, but aren't these cards necessary for a rush? What bothers me is that it can turn a rush into a stallbraker, and because it is applicable in many decks, this effectively thins out the meta to Rush-Stallbreakers, Domins and poor Stalls. This is in addition to the obvious advantage it has over Nightfall/Eclipse.
We already have good counters to CC/PC-less Stalls, but we don't want every rush and all their neighbors, friends and mothers countering these stalls.

CC/PC-less stalls deserve to lose
I do not understand this. I expect better reasoning.

I don't want to post Magic Potato again.
Not so active.

Offline Cheesy111Topic starter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1517
  • Reputation Power: 19
  • Cheesy111 is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.Cheesy111 is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.Cheesy111 is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.
  • New to Elements
  • Awards: Battle League 2/2014 1st PlaceWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeBattle League 3/2012 2nd PlaceWeekly Tournament WinnerBeginners League 2/2012 2nd Place
Re: Nerf Shard of Patience. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41406.msg533688#msg533688
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2012, 12:13:01 pm »
Spoiler for Hidden:
I have not visited this thread for a long time, but here goes:

I have already stated why this needs a nerf, because this card is already comparable to Nightfall even in use outside water. It definitely is strong when placed in water decks, and even if you will say that water decks need this card to be competitive, you can easily say that most of the decks power will most likely come from this. If you will not nerf an overpowered card because it is balanced enough in the decks it is applicable on, then you are only stopping the necessary buffs for the cards that go along with this. Keeping this strong to make water decks balanced will only hinder possible development for the cards as these will only serve as a "quick fix" and will then forse all water decks with creatures to use this. The same can be said for Shard of Wisdom and Shard of Freedom. Now I must ask: Why in the world would it need a buff?

Higs, you do need creatures, but aren't these cards necessary for a rush? What bothers me is that it can turn a rush into a stallbraker, and because it is applicable in many decks, this effectively thins out the meta to Rush-Stallbreakers, Domins and poor Stalls. This is in addition to the obvious advantage it has over Nightfall/Eclipse.
We already have good counters to CC/PC-less Stalls, but we don't want every rush and all their neighbors, friends and mothers countering these stalls.

CC/PC-less stalls deserve to lose
I do not understand this. I expect better reasoning.

I don't want to post Magic Potato again.

Also please note that SoP is a comparable if not better stallbreaker than Fractal, and yet it doesn't require the immense support structure (aether quanta) that Fractal does. 

Offline justaburd

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 638
  • Reputation Power: 12
  • justaburd is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.justaburd is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.
  • Chirp!
  • Awards: Gold DonorSlice of Elements 7th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 5th Birthday Cake7th Trials - Master of AirSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeWeekly Tournament WinnerSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake
Re: Nerf Shard of Patience. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41406.msg533689#msg533689
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2012, 12:14:15 pm »
CC/PC-less stalls deserve to lose
I do not understand this. I expect better reasoning.

Can you post a good stall deck that has no cc or pc? I'm including shields in here because shields offer damage reduction and, in some cases, cc (fire, thorn, procrastination)

Spoiler for Hidden:
I have not visited this thread for a long time, but here goes:

I have already stated why this needs a nerf, because this card is already comparable to Nightfall even in use outside water. It definitely is strong when placed in water decks, and even if you will say that water decks need this card to be competitive, you can easily say that most of the decks power will most likely come from this. If you will not nerf an overpowered card because it is balanced enough in the decks it is applicable on, then you are only stopping the necessary buffs for the cards that go along with this. Keeping this strong to make water decks balanced will only hinder possible development for the cards as these will only serve as a "quick fix" and will then forse all water decks with creatures to use this. The same can be said for Shard of Wisdom and Shard of Freedom. Now I must ask: Why in the world would it need a buff?

Higs, you do need creatures, but aren't these cards necessary for a rush? What bothers me is that it can turn a rush into a stallbraker, and because it is applicable in many decks, this effectively thins out the meta to Rush-Stallbreakers, Domins and poor Stalls. This is in addition to the obvious advantage it has over Nightfall/Eclipse.
We already have good counters to CC/PC-less Stalls, but we don't want every rush and all their neighbors, friends and mothers countering these stalls.

CC/PC-less stalls deserve to lose
I do not understand this. I expect better reasoning.

I don't want to post Magic Potato again.

Also please note that SoP is a comparable if not better stallbreaker than Fractal, and yet it doesn't require the immense support structure (aether quanta) that Fractal does.
SoP requires way too many turns to break a stall compared to fractal. CC and PC, as stated before, crush SoP decks except when it works on untargettable creatures. If you'd like, perhaps you'd consider arguing nerfing SoP to not affect untargettable creatures instead.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 12:16:04 pm by justaburd »
Chirp? *looks around*

Offline Little Lord

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 33
  • Reputation Power: 1
  • Little Lord is a Spark waiting for a buff.
Shard of Patience in 1.32 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41406.msg1034992#msg1034992
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2013, 07:52:52 am »


After the recent buff it acts not only as a stallbreaker, there are an alarming lot of decks using it with damselflys, ball lightnings and the likes doing exceptionally well.
I recommend to reinstate the former version, no buff was needed for this card.

Offline Chapuz

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6081
  • Country: ar
  • Reputation Power: 72
  • Chapuz frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Chapuz frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Chapuz frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Chapuz frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Chapuz frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Chapuz frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Chapuz frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Chapuz frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Chapuz frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Chapuz frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Chapuz frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Chapuz frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Chapuz frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Chapuz frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.
  • The weird Voodoo guy
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 11th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 10th Birthday CakeDeckbuilding Competition - Tower Defense WinnerSlice of Elements 9th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 8th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 6th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 5th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeBrawl #1 Winner - Team Nyan Sharks
Re: Shard of Patience in 1.32 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41406.msg1035023#msg1035023
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2013, 01:26:31 pm »
SoP rushes are not the fastest ever. To run actually many creatures, you need a fractal first. If you don't, you surely won't have more than +5 damage per turn and that's not attacking at all. Faster than that is mono water with just pendulums and 5 nymph tears
My Decks, Tutorial and Guides <~~~~~ Click Here ! ! !

Offline whatifidogetcaught?

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1501
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 28
  • whatifidogetcaught? is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.whatifidogetcaught? is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.whatifidogetcaught? is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.whatifidogetcaught? is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.whatifidogetcaught? is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.
  • Fattest skinny guy you know.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 4th Birthday Cake
Re: Shard of Patience in 1.32 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41406.msg1035026#msg1035026
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2013, 01:50:16 pm »
I understand it can work as a great stall breaker, but how many of those do we really have? What can try to outstall mono-aether without PC? Nothing. Except maybe another mono-aether. This card is easily a game breaker, but it creates more fun situations than destroys. It doesn't mess with the metagame, because there are faster rushes out there. Now for Flooding...I do think that should come down to 4 | 4. 5 | 5 is simply ridiculous.
A tout le monde, a tout mes amis, je vous aime, je dois partir.

Proud servant of Team :time in War 6.

Offline Absol

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2383
  • Country: id
  • Reputation Power: 35
  • Absol is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.Absol is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.Absol is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.Absol is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.Absol is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.Absol is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.Absol is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.
  • Consectetur Adipiscing Elit
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake
Re: Shard of Patience in 1.32 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41406.msg1035030#msg1035030
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2013, 02:33:28 pm »
Maybe it's just me, but this card doesn't have in-element bonus.
And no, before you say Flooding, it's too situational and is a specific card bonus, not in-element. Refer to old SoP for in-element bonus example.
"Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum, quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit."
"There is no one who loves pain itself, who seeks after it and wants to have it, simply because it is pain."

Offline RavingRabbid

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5044
  • Country: it
  • Reputation Power: 85
  • RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.RavingRabbid is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • Lord Seagull
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 11th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 10th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 7th Birthday CakeDeckbuilding Competition: The Face of Mother NatureSlice of Elements 6th Birthday Cake7th Trials - Master of WaterWinner of Warrior's Preparation - PvP Event14 Club - Most Expensive Players during War AuctionWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday CakeTeam PVP #1 Winner5th Trials - Master of Water3rd Trials - Master of WaterChampionship League 3/2011 WinnerWinner of 2nd Off-Topic Quiz LeagueWinner of 2nd Element Quiz LeagueWinner of 1st Off-Topic Quiz LeagueWinner of 1st Element Quiz LeagueChampionship League 2/2011 WinnerSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday Cake3-Man Team PvP #1 Winner
Re: Shard of Patience in 1.32 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41406.msg1035836#msg1035836
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2013, 11:48:09 pm »
Maybe it's just me, but this card doesn't have in-element bonus.
And no, before you say Flooding, it's too situational and is a specific card bonus, not in-element. Refer to old SoP for in-element bonus example.
Flooding is an in-element malus.

There are things worse than eating tuna directly from the tin

Offline Little Lord

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 33
  • Reputation Power: 1
  • Little Lord is a Spark waiting for a buff.
Re: Shard of Patience in 1.32 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41406.msg1036025#msg1036025
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2013, 03:51:22 pm »
My suggestion was to make the lifegain only apply to water creatures again, it would make ball lightnings, damselflys etc. CC-able, so it would look like this:

+2/+0 to all
+2/+2 to water creatures
+5/+5 if flooded (very hard to pull off, not OP in my book)

(probably not gonna happen after phase salvager though)

 

anything
blarg: