Elements the Game Forum - Free Online Fantasy Card Game
Elements the Game => Game Suggestions and Feedback => Nerf This Card! => Topic started by: ColorlessGreen on March 19, 2013, 06:48:47 pm
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(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/ShardOfFreedom.png)(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/Upgrade.png)(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/ShardOfFreedomUpgraded.png)
Seems like it's become quite dominant within arena at least. I certainly don't want to nerf it into uselessness, but I was thinking the slight change of altering the % chance of it activating from 25% to 20% per shard would help a lot with attempting to counter the card, particularly when playing against decks with double draw. Alternately, capping the total trigger rate to, say, 90% would also be a big help.
Any thoughts?
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If further nerfed it might be a little useless with a single copy. It's on the OU side of the game nowadays, but if anything it might need a bit of a cost increase.
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If further nerfed it might be a little useless with a single copy. It's on the OU side of the game nowadays, but if anything it might need a bit of a cost increase.
Honestly, despite the fact that I suggested the 25%->20% change, I wound up voting for leaving the 25% where it was and just giving it a cumulative cap, since, like you said, that'd make one of them less than useful and the problem is mostly when they have 4 of them in play.
Increasing cost would also be alright. I don't think a huge nerf is needed at all, just a relatively minor one.
Something else I just thought of: changing it so that when the boost triggers, rather than just ignoring all shields, change it to spell damage so that it'd be reflectable. Or, cap the evade at 50% and leave the damage/shield uncapped.
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I think that a cost increase to 3 | 2 would be pretty reasonable. With regards to spell damage, while it is a good balancing idea, it has no thematic link with air.
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Keeping in mind however that :air Air tends to have cheaper costs as part of its design, I think increasing the cost to 3 :air | 2 :air would be a safe and reversible change.
I don't currently believe the card is Overpowered however.
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Either a cost increase for both cards, or a cost increase for the upgraded and a % nerf for the unupgraded (eg 20%) should be fine. Although it might also be ok as is. I'll agree it's very strong in arena, but you have to remember that arena is completely different from PvP which cards are usually balanced around.
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Shard of Freedom has a great and fun buff that is balanced for a single card but is a bit ugly when 4 Shards of Freedom stack.
Why not simply make the stacking 'proper' - i.e., 4 shards should have not 25%+25%+25%+25% = 100% chance as they seem to have now, but instead roll for each card separately (not giving double buffs) - so a single shard would have 25%, two shards 25%+ 75%*25%= 43%, three shards 25% + 75% *( 25%+ 75%*25%) = 58% chance, etc.
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Shard of freedom </3 Beats me so many times.
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+1/+1 to cost.
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Definitely cost increase to 3|2 for the standard shards.
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IMO, the only things it needs is a quanta fixxage. A couple more of air quanta for both version should do the job.
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Actually I don't think a nerf is needed. Even if the card is used a lot in gold or plat, that doesn't prove it is OP.
And I am somewhat dissapointed that the reason for it's so called OP'nes isn't specified in this thread.
You can't find a cure when you don't know which illness your dealing with.
So please specify :)
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I can't vote with what you say.
"It seems to be quite dominant in the arena.."
...
And?
'Till I see some more over why / how it's OP, I'll refrain from voting.
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I can't vote with what you say.
"It seems to be quite dominant in the arena.."
...
And?
'Till I see some more over why / how it's OP, I'll refrain from voting.
Agreed
Card balance should not take into account how good/bad a card is on PVE, like Arena
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I've been playing mono air with 5 SoF the last week or so, and it certainly does have some weaknesses.
The card itself is, of course, prone to all kinds of PC, and the air creatures can still be targeted by mass-CC (plague, thunderstorm) even with 4 SoF in place.
Despite that, I think it certainly needs a nerf, personally going with the cost increase.
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I've been playing mono air with 5 SoF the last week or so, and it certainly does have some weaknesses.
The card itself is, of course, prone to all kinds of PC, and the air creatures can still be targeted by mass-CC (plague, thunderstorm) even with 4 SoF in place.
Despite that, I think it certainly needs a nerf, personally going with the cost increase.
why do you think it needs a nerf?
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I'm sure I'm going to make a flaw somewhere in this post, but I'll try to explain anyways.
Assuming that there are 4 SoF and 4 air creatures on the field:
4 SoF's cost: 4 :air
Its effects:
50% damage increase: Skyblitz has 8 :air cost, and since SoF does 50% additional damage, let's say it's comparative cost is 4 :air. There is a downside that 4 SoFs are needed, which cost 4 cards in the deck, but since it can be used every turn instead of just once, I'll ignore that.
Ignore shield: 4 Momentums cost 4 :gravity, so let's say the comparative cost is 4 :air.
Evade targeting if :air: Fairly difficult to compare against anything, but quintessence does have a cost of 4 :aether per creature, with a total of 16 :aether. However, decreasing the comparative cost is necessary due to the fact that air creatures can still be targeted with mass CC, and that SoF is prone to PC. Let's say a cost of 4 :air total.
So 4 SoF's effects have a total comparative cost of 12 :air, and therefore 3 :air per card. I assume I may have forgotten a few things, but even so, 1 :air seems too cheap.
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It's a strong card, so in my oppinion a cost increase by 1/1 is okay.
Every other nerf doesn't make that much
sense, cause it's only OP in the arena.
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It's a strong card, so in my oppinion a cost increase by 1/1 is okay.
Every other nerf doesn't make that much
sense, cause it's only OP in the arena.
And in PVP2. Almost a third of the decks are mono air, with SoF everywhere.
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Shard of Freedom has a great and fun buff that is balanced for a single card but is a bit ugly when 4 Shards of Freedom stack.
Why not simply make the stacking 'proper' - i.e., 4 shards should have not 25%+25%+25%+25% = 100% chance as they seem to have now, but instead roll for each card separately (not giving double buffs) - so a single shard would have 25%, two shards 25%+ 75%*25%= 43%, three shards 25% + 75% *( 25%+ 75%*25%) = 58% chance, etc.
Tiring mathematical complexities coming!!! :D
Very good point. That's right if it's stacks, but it doesn't do in the realistic way. For not mathematical analyst (which not a shame :D but to be clear ): The second shard should activates IF the first hasn't evaded the attack, but I doesn't working in the way like that. And the double positive trigger (25%*25%=6.25%) counted twice in this effect and it's a redundant, useless case (why we need to defend sthing if it's already in safe?). 50%-6.25%= 43,75% approx. 44% .
In the third shard, we count both the double and the triple positive trigger too, so it's makes that we have to subtract from 75% the triple and double cases (the 3. only activates, when the 1. and 2. is failed, which means 100%-43,75%=56.25% ). So it'll work 56,25%*25%=14,0625%. In conclusion it have 43,75%+14,0625%=57,8125% approx 58% as Peeteriz counted.
Shortening the thing, the REAL chance of getting prevented by SoFr/shard:
Shard=chance
1=25% =25%
2=43.75% =44%
3=57,8125% =58%
4=68,359375% =68%
5=76,26953125% =76%
6=82,2021484375% =82%
7!=86,651611328125% =87% (for those lucky guys, who get this with SoSep and play with that)
That'll be a good and realistic(because in the reality the chances counted in the way like that) nerf. But it's need much programing (instead of a simple adding, it's need a cycle), so I don't think it'll be added till it's not a collective will.
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Shard of Freedom has a great and fun buff that is balanced for a single card but is a bit ugly when 4 Shards of Freedom stack.
Why not simply make the stacking 'proper' - i.e., 4 shards should have not 25%+25%+25%+25% = 100% chance as they seem to have now, but instead roll for each card separately (not giving double buffs) - so a single shard would have 25%, two shards 25%+ 75%*25%= 43%, three shards 25% + 75% *( 25%+ 75%*25%) = 58% chance, etc.
Tiring mathematical complexities coming!!! :D
Very good point. That's right if it's stacks, but it doesn't do in the realistic way. For not mathematical analyst (which not a shame :D but to be clear ): The second shard should activates IF the first hasn't evaded the attack, but I doesn't working in the way like that. And the double positive trigger (25%*25%=6.25%) counted twice in this effect and it's a redundant, useless case (why we need to defend sthing if it's already in safe?). 50%-6.25%= 43,75% approx. 44% .
In the third shard, we count both the double and the triple positive trigger too, so it's makes that we have to subtract from 75% the triple and double cases (the 3. only activates, when the 1. and 2. is failed, which means 100%-43,75%=56.25% ). So it'll work 56,25%*25%=14,0625%. In conclusion it have 43,75%+14,0625%=57,8125% approx 58% as Peeteriz counted.
Shortening the thing, the REAL chance of getting prevented by SoFr/shard:
Shard=chance
1=25% =25%
2=43.75% =44%
3=57,8125% =58%
4=68,359375% =68%
5=76,26953125% =76%
6=82,2021484375% =82%
7!=86,651611328125% =87% (for those lucky guys, who get this with SoSep and play with that)
That'll be a good and realistic(because in the reality the chances counted in the way like that) nerf. But it's need much programing (instead of a simple adding, it's need a cycle), so I don't think it'll be added till it's not a collective will.
FWIW, while this isn't really my favorite solution, at a coding level it's actually really easy. You just figure out the chance for all of them to not trigger, and then subtract it from 1.
2 SoFr = 1 - ((1 - 0.25) * (1 - 0.25))
3 SoFr = 1 - ((1 - 0.25) ^ 3)
...etc, so the formula reduces to (1 - (0.75 ^ x)) where x is number of SoFr in play.
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I don't think it's overpowered.
Any Permanent Control card can take it out and for that magickal 100% you need to draw 4 of them whil'st not losing any of them.
Plus, :air has neither Permanent Control nor Permanent Protection, so, in a Mono-Air deck the Shard is a prone target to things like Steal, Explosion, Pulverizer etc. which are common in Arena-farmer decks as well...
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Normally I do not ask for a nerf based on how PvE uses it but I almost made an exception in this case.
However I have seen a few decks in PvP2 that sickened me. ( Not just Mono air. )
So with both of those reasons is a nerf justified? maybe...
However unupped and upped has the same cost as momentum just an effect that is much much much better. I see no reason why this shard should not be nerfed .
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Normally I do not ask for a nerf based on how PvE uses it but I almost made an exception in this case.
However I have seen a few decks in PvP2 that sickened me. ( Not just Mono air. )
So with both of those reasons is a nerf justified? maybe...
However unupped and upped has the same cost as momentum just an effect that is much much much better. I see no reason why this shard should not be nerfed .
Correction: It has 1/4th the effect of momentum, half if you count evasion. So two of these would = one momentum.
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Normally I do not ask for a nerf based on how PvE uses it but I almost made an exception in this case.
However I have seen a few decks in PvP2 that sickened me. ( Not just Mono air. )
So with both of those reasons is a nerf justified? maybe...
However unupped and upped has the same cost as momentum just an effect that is much much much better. I see no reason why this shard should not be nerfed .
Correction: It has 1/4th the effect of momentum, half if you count evasion. So two of these would = one momentum.
But for the entire field, which I feel would usually have at least 2 creatures on it by the time you get out 2 sofree.
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Normally I do not ask for a nerf based on how PvE uses it but I almost made an exception in this case.
However I have seen a few decks in PvP2 that sickened me. ( Not just Mono air. )
So with both of those reasons is a nerf justified? maybe...
However unupped and upped has the same cost as momentum just an effect that is much much much better. I see no reason why this shard should not be nerfed .
Correction: It has 1/4th the effect of momentum, half if you count evasion. So two of these would = one momentum.
Momentum only gives it to one creature.
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I'm not convinced shard of freedom needs a nerf, but another possibility would be to make the +25% multiplicative instead of additive. This would mean that no matter how many shards you had in play, you wouldn't be able to achieve that 100% evasion, though you could come very close. The math would look like this: (whereas currently now it is 1 shard = 25, 2 shards = 50, 3 shards = 75, 4+ shards = 100) This would also mean that copies of shard of freedom drawn beyond 4 are not completely dead cards.
1 shard: 25
2 shards: 43.75
3 shards: 57.8125
4 shards: 68.359375
5 shards: 76.26953125
6 shards: 82.20214844
7 shards: 86.65161133
8 shards: 89.9887085
9 shards: 92.49153137
10 shards: 94.36864853
11 shards: 95.7764864
12 shards: 96.8323648
(you could get more than 12 in arena via steals, but it is both unlikely and would be fairly insignificant)
(formula is 1 - [0.75^x] percent evasion, where x is the number of shards of freedom)
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I'm not convinced shard of freedom needs a nerf, but another possibility would be to make the +25% multiplicative instead of additive. This would mean that no matter how many shards you had in play, you wouldn't be able to achieve that 100% evasion, though you could come very close. The math would look like this: (whereas currently now it is 1 shard = 25, 2 shards = 50, 3 shards = 75, 4+ shards = 100) This would also mean that copies of shard of freedom drawn beyond 4 are not completely dead cards.
1 shard: 25
2 shards: 43.75
3 shards: 57.8125
4 shards: 68.359375
5 shards: 76.26953125
6 shards: 82.20214844
7 shards: 86.65161133
8 shards: 89.9887085
9 shards: 92.49153137
10 shards: 94.36864853
11 shards: 95.7764864
12 shards: 96.8323648
(you could get more than 12 in arena via steals, but it is both unlikely and would be fairly insignificant)
(formula is 1 - [0.75^x] percent evasion, where x is the number of shards of freedom)
Please before posting read the previous suggestions. It's reduces the redundancy of the topic
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I'm not convinced shard of freedom needs a nerf, but another possibility would be to make the +25% multiplicative instead of additive. This would mean that no matter how many shards you had in play, you wouldn't be able to achieve that 100% evasion, though you could come very close. The math would look like this: (whereas currently now it is 1 shard = 25, 2 shards = 50, 3 shards = 75, 4+ shards = 100) This would also mean that copies of shard of freedom drawn beyond 4 are not completely dead cards.
1 shard: 25
2 shards: 43.75
3 shards: 57.8125
4 shards: 68.359375
5 shards: 76.26953125
6 shards: 82.20214844
7 shards: 86.65161133
8 shards: 89.9887085
9 shards: 92.49153137
10 shards: 94.36864853
11 shards: 95.7764864
12 shards: 96.8323648
(you could get more than 12 in arena via steals, but it is both unlikely and would be fairly insignificant)
(formula is 1 - [0.75^x] percent evasion, where x is the number of shards of freedom)
Think this would temporarily balance the card really well, though I'm not completely convinced as to it not needing a cost increase :p
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FWIW, the additive->multiplicative nerf is huge as compared to every other option that's been presented so far, and I think it'd take the card from dominant-in-PvE-and-(apparently)-balanced-in-PvP to underpowered-in-PvE-and-near-useless-in-PvP.
However, as an intellectual exercise, here's what a multiplicative SoFr table with a base rate of 30% would look like:
1 30.00%
2 51.00%
3 65.70%
4 75.99%
5 83.19%
6 88.24%
7 91.76%
8 94.24%
9 95.96%
10 97.18%
11 98.02%
12 98.62%
...which is much less of a crippling nerf. Just in case we randomly do decide to go down that particular path.
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I just think its price is low, it could be 3 :air
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i think it would be best if the odds are calculated differently:
instead of 4 shards giving 100% chance to hit, make it 4 times 25% chance to hit and increase attack with 1 increase at most, so a (3/4)^4 = 25% chance it doesnt get the bonus
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If the SoF is changed to a 'multiplicative' model, I don't know about the upped version, but the unupped version would be severely underpowered.
Possibly the unupped SoF cost could be also lowered to 1 :air and instead its 'base rate' be a little bit (maybe 5 - 8%) lower than the upped version's.
i think it would be best if the odds are calculated differently:
instead of 4 shards giving 100% chance to hit, make it 4 times 25% chance to hit and increase attack with 1 increase at most, so a (3/4)^4 = 25% chance it doesnt get the bonus
Similar things have been said already. Please read above :p
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I dont have a problem with this card in PvP but in PvE it is so over powered with the double draw. because out side of pulverizer(which is expensive to use because you need a duel realm deck) theres no way to destroy all of them. Im not apposed to them being able to bypass the shields that adds a nice twist to try and defend and its not much different then a psions ability. But i think to balance this card you should remove the part were the monster cant be targeted. or atleast lower the chances of not being targeted from 25% per card to like 10%.
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I am annoyed with the evasion factor, maybe reduce it to 15% chance per-shard?
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Diminishing returns are a good idea since they would affect PvE (where it's more OP) more than PvP, where it would still remain a good card at the very least
Also: since any deck built with this will make heavy use, it implies that another avenue of balancing could be in making this a global effect (as in, also buffs enemy airborne creatures) like Nightfall
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If the SoF is changed to a 'multiplicative' model, I don't know about the upped version, but the unupped version would be severely underpowered.
Possibly the unupped SoF cost could be also lowered to 1 :air and instead its 'base rate' be a little bit (maybe 5 - 8%) lower than the upped version's.
ColorlessGreen idea to make it a multiplicative 30% rate is solves the UP problem too. With 1-2 shard it becomes better, but with the 4 it's 'only' 76% what's not a much nerf, but more rational and normal. It's don't need lower/higher cost and we'll still hate this card :D
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Shard of Freedom has a great and fun buff that is balanced for a single card but is a bit ugly when 4 Shards of Freedom stack.
Why not simply make the stacking 'proper' - i.e., 4 shards should have not 25%+25%+25%+25% = 100% chance as they seem to have now, but instead roll for each card separately (not giving double buffs) - so a single shard would have 25%, two shards 25%+ 75%*25%= 43%, three shards 25% + 75% *( 25%+ 75%*25%) = 58% chance, etc.
This guy has the best idea.
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The problem with this card is not when you have one of them out, rather it is when you have multiple out. So I believe it'd be better if the effect was multiplicative rather than additive (which has already been suggested)
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I'd rather in terms of the nerf, that the effect which allows you to evade creature control was removed.
That makes it much fairer in my mind, as that way you can at least destroy the creatures that bypass your shields, rather than absolutely being forced to run explosion/steal/pulveriser to deal with the problem (and even then, only pulveriser truly deals with the problem of so many shards).
Either that, or bypassing shields as an effect needs to go. At least that way you can still deal great damage through the weaker shields. If you want to get through Phase Shield chains, run a FIRE mark and pack a few explosions.
Basically, the combination of all 3 effects together is too powerful, and one of them needs to be removed.
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I don't know if this'd be a buff or a nerf, but, IMHO, as it is right now is pretty fine, except for the evading part. I'd rather make it so that the probabilities to evade it are always of the 50%, will it be with 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 copies.
Using the "real" probabilities is just mean to it, because 4 copies are about 68%, I'd recommend not.
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I dont really think that this card needs a nerf
cuz :
1. it kinda balances with air having no PC what so ever
2. if you nerf it a +1 :air that makes playing it slower (well exept in arena if you have like a x3 :air mark)
3. it is not OP because it can be destroyed with any PC
( i am just a "nub" so do not get mad at me)
oh and also, arena decks are suppose to be hard i am sure if you had like the same health you will have like 50-50 chance of winning (or more
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I dont really think that this card needs a nerf
cuz :
1. it kinda balances with air having no PC what so ever
2. if you nerf it a +1 :air that makes playing it slower (well exept in arena if you have like a x3 :air mark)
3. it is not OP because it can be destroyed with any PC
( i am just a "nub" so do not get mad at me)
oh and also, arena decks are suppose to be hard i am sure if you had like the same health you will have like 50-50 chance of winning (or more
Counters don't make a card not overpowered.
Lets compare to momentum: 4 cards each, same power as momentum, but wait, it also makes them immune to single target CC AND gives 50% more damage. Then after 4 creatures, momentum just gets weaker and weaker as it needs more cards slots for both creatures and momentum while the shard only needs 4.
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This shard is one of the strongest. In my opionion it should cost more than 2 and 1 :air quanta.
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FWIW, the additive->multiplicative nerf is huge as compared to every other option that's been presented so far, and I think it'd take the card from dominant-in-PvE-and-(apparently)-balanced-in-PvP to underpowered-in-PvE-and-near-useless-in-PvP.
However, as an intellectual exercise, here's what a multiplicative SoFr table with a base rate of 30% would look like:
1 30.00%
2 51.00%
3 65.70%
4 75.99%
5 83.19%
6 88.24%
7 91.76%
8 94.24%
9 95.96%
10 97.18%
11 98.02%
12 98.62%
...which is much less of a crippling nerf. Just in case we randomly do decide to go down that particular path.
This is the best so far because it doesn't discourage people from actually playing it, and nerfs it in arena where player PC can't keep up sometimes and still stay alive. Worth rep.
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I've always been wondering why stacking sofr worked this way: instead of stacking multiplicative. Seems the only logical change to me. (Though a single Sofr at 30% is a lot, just let it start at 25%)
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I agree with multiplicativeness, I hold to my idea that it should behave like Nightfall (buffing opponent too)
But I'm posting to add: Creatures shouldn't be able to evade if frozen or delayed. I know that'll never happen once 4 are in play, but while building up Procrastination can delay quite a few creatures, and targetting delayed creatures would save wasting spell casts
PS If a Nightfall effect was used, one could buff Air vs SoFr airborne by making Snipe incapable of missing
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I don't think this card needs any buff/nerf. Well balanced and perfectly fits to the :air element. I fought against it sometimes, not bad card. Useful and strong. Good to air element. :air :air
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What about making it vulnerable to Earthquakes?
3 down, and you don't dodge so much anymore.
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Too strong. PvP you can only have 6 copies. That's two EQs. EQ works because pillars are aplenty
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But the percentage could be worked per shard. 4 times 25% should be something around 47%. Not summed into 100%.
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+1/+1 to cost.
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shard percentage = sum ( 0.25 ^ x) , x=1, 6.
this. <3 i love it. would be a perfect fix and theres the formula if someone is curious to how to get his number (and put it into script). ^
Honestly, despite the fact that I suggested the 25%->20% change, I wound up voting for leaving the 25% where it was and...
heh. funny. you gotta stand by your argument 100%, dood. its contradicting when you dont. :D (or appears hesitant at least?)
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This card is a gamechanger when playing with mono air deck. It's common for people to get beat down in arena just by the existance of this card. The cumulative trigger chance should be capped. :'(
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Until dim shield gets nerfed, this card doesn't deserve to be nerfed. So I'm gonna say what people in favor of dim shield have said to me: Stop complaining and use some permanent control. Noob. Plenty of ways to deal with decks that use Sofr.
(how does it feel?)
Here are some:
-use perm control (obviously)
-use mass creature control
-use early creature control
-use a rush deck (before they can take out too many shards)
-use a heal/drain deck (stalls them out, you heal and attack while opp just attacks)
-use a stall deck (to prevent)
-use a quanta/tower control deck (to prevent)
-use antimatter (turns the tide, opp's sofr ends up helping you win)
-use web effect (turns opp's creatures to non-flying)
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Until dim shield gets nerfed, this card doesn't deserve to be nerfed. So I'm gonna say what people in favor of dim shield have said to me: Stop complaining and use some permanent control. Noob. Plenty of ways to deal with decks that use Sofr.
(how does it feel?)
Here are some:
-use perm control (obviously)
-use mass creature control
-use early creature control
-use a rush deck (before they can take out too many shards)
-use a heal/drain deck (stalls them out, you heal and attack while opp just attacks)
-use a stall deck (to prevent)
-use a quanta/tower control deck (to prevent)
-use antimatter (turns the tide, opp's sofr ends up helping you win)
-use web effect (turns opp's creatures to non-flying)
This way of looking at it is too simple imho.
First of all, most of those options only apply if you have additional stall (which will be shields and not cc cuz its SoFree) before it counters a SoFree rush.
Second, I think it is more about the strength of the shards than the idea behind them, so if it gets nerfed those counters will still work and also better than they already did.
Also: isnt there also a post about dim shields? I can imagine theres alot of debate about those, but why should it matter to SoFree?. By the same reasoning SoFree counters dim shield, so SoFree should be nerfed first cuz its better than dims.
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Until dim shield gets nerfed, this card doesn't deserve to be nerfed. So I'm gonna say what people in favor of dim shield have said to me: Stop complaining and use some permanent control. Noob. Plenty of ways to deal with decks that use Sofr.
(how does it feel?)
Here are some:
-use perm control (obviously)
-use mass creature control
-use early creature control
-use a rush deck (before they can take out too many shards)
-use a heal/drain deck (stalls them out, you heal and attack while opp just attacks)
-use a stall deck (to prevent)
-use a quanta/tower control deck (to prevent)
-use antimatter (turns the tide, opp's sofr ends up helping you win)
-use web effect (turns opp's creatures to non-flying)
First off, perm control is VERY easily stopped. This is one of the few times EA is good as it will stop that flat out. This does NOT apply to dim shield because dim. shield will disappear after 3 turns, meaning you need a separate EA for each shield. In the case of SoFr, you only need 1 to protect the whole stack.
-The comment about rush decks is also a problem since many of the best SoFr decks are themselves rush decks (try outrushing SoFr-Damsel-tal ... its not actually that easy to do, especially consistently)
-Using tower / quanta control? once again damselfly combo will flatten that idea many times. Also, SoFr takes a measely 1 :air to play. Good luck stopping that consistently with QC.
-AM... um if you cant target something AM won't help you much.
-Web effect ... again you cant target the flyers.
In short, mass CC is the only consistently effective counter.
I actually think a slight nerf wouldn't be too bad here.
I think with 3+ its far too strong... on the other hand I think with just 1 (or even with 2) it could use a slight bump. Some kind of non-linear scaling would be good... maybe have it give
1 -> 30%
2 -> 45%
3 -> 60%
4 -> 75%
5 -> 85%
6 -> 90%
each after 6 adds only 1.5% (capping it out at 99%)
Then again, I also think dim. shield currently makes the game less fun and is in need of more counter cards as well. Sadly I doubt I'll see either.
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Suggestion early in this thread that I agree with: Make it multiplicative. It doesn't hurt it much for the first couple, then gets a lot lower then. Would that not mostly fix it?
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Liking a few suggestions.
- 25->20% (or 15%)
- multiplicative stacking
- capping creature protection at 50% (or 75%)
- :air cost boosts
All sound somewhat reasonable. Which is the best option remains questionable.
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Playing Chaos Wyrms in PvP2, I don't see how this can be called balanced in PvP. PC is more expensive than the shards. You have to have CC alongside that PC to stop the Wyrms. Nevermind that Chaos Power makes the Wyrms have sufficient hp that one needs to use hp ignoring CC. The only reasonable response is mass CC (or PDials)
I revoke my argument against EQ, though consistency implies it should be able to target other shard stacks and maybe Bonewall. Unknown whether EQ would be OP from such a buff
That Chaos Wyrms is among the fastest decks not counting SoBr rushes seems wrong considering that it carries mass momentum and immaterial. Compare to SoW requiring an already immaterial creatures (which are inefficient) or quintessence (a 3 card combo) to attain (reflectable) momentum for one creature
Tthe three buffs scale off each other. Increase damage, increase damage again by ignoring DR, increase damage again by not allowing CC to reduce damage. Comparing each buff as it costs in different cards doesn't consider the draw consistency packaging inside a 1 :air card grants
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Hmm, this shard's effect shouldn't be stackable at all. I say let it be used as Nightfall: 25% evading and shield bonus if one or more is up. No more and no less than 25%.
Or make it cost 6 :air quanta, make it kill all of the user's creatures and damage the user for 20 HP.
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I would like to see a cap for the stacking effect, at say 50%.
The most annoying part is since they stack I cannot destroy the creatures. If they have 5 shards I have no hope of destroying the creatures or shards.
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I would like to see a cap for the stacking effect, at say 50%.
The most annoying part is since they stack I cannot destroy the creatures. If they have 5 shards I have no hope of destroying the creatures or shards.
I don't understand what you mean by "no hope of destroying the ... shards." There are many efficient counters to SoFr: steal, pulverizer, SoF, SoSac, sundials, even butterfly effect. Also, if your opponent has 5 SoFr out, presumably you should have 5 of something else out that could be doing more damage than stacked SoFr.
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With 2 Damsels and 2 Wyrms on the field, a SoFr is worth 3 damage. This is more efficient than a Giant Frog, and does not include an evaluation of shield bypass or evasion. It's impossible to outscale SoFr by playing "something else". You need to hard counter it (Dials, SoSa, repeatable PC, mass CC)
Also ignore BE. Pandemonium is the better way of dealing with SoFr for Entropy (issues with unupped). 4 :entropy and 3 :entropy for each SoFr you destroy is inefficient enough to be seen as a winning advantage being gained by SoFr (this isn't a good argument for SoFr being too cheap, as one can easily argue BE is too expensive. The combination of both makes this case extreme)
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With 2 Damsels and 2 Wyrms on the field, a SoFr is worth 3 damage. This is more efficient than a Giant Frog, and does not include an evaluation of shield bypass or evasion. It's impossible to outscale SoFr by playing "something else". You need to hard counter it (Dials, SoSa, repeatable PC, mass CC)
I agree basically with what you are saying. SoFr doesn't yield significantly better TTW than every other deck. It is definitely one of the faster ones. So, yes, mass CC is a good way to go, since SoFr is less efficient the fewer creatures are on the field.
Regarding BE, I think 3 :entropy is fair to destroy a card that costs :air. But basically you are right that BE costs too much.
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Paying 7 :entropy and even 3 :entropy for a a card that costs :air is terrible.
Assuming that I would have 5 counters, or more damaging monster out is flawed. If you should be countering or doing more damage as you say the deck would never win.
I've played it using pestal and swallow, neither kept up in the arena. The AI always drops at least 3 shards by t2, I cannot steal them all or swallow them in the same amount of time. Assuming of course I draw those cards to the 10 shards in the AI's deck.
As far as in pvp, having a card that cost :air and produces more damage, momentum, and essentially immaterial is silly. I'd be fine if the evading was removed. Quinessence and shard of wisdom cost more and together do essentially less what this shard does for :air.
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Paying 7 :entropy and even 3 :entropy for a a card that costs :air is terrible.
Assuming that I would have 5 counters, or more damaging monster out is flawed. If you should be countering or doing more damage as you say the deck would never win.
I've played it using pestal and swallow, neither kept up in the arena. The AI always drops at least 3 shards by t2, I cannot steal them all or swallow them in the same amount of time. Assuming of course I draw those cards to the 10 shards in the AI's deck.
It's like you are saying that Rain of Fire and Explosion are too strong because you can't defeat Eternal Phoenix (the false god) with a RoL/Hope or a New old Times deck. (For record: I am not saying that shard of freedom is fine, I am just saying that your argumentation is wrong. 1. neiter pestal nor swallow nor SoSac decks should be able to defeat every deck in platin. 2. Don't take the gold and platin arenas into acount too much. the thing that should really be in balance should be pvp and pvp2.)
As far as in pvp, having a card that cost :air and produces more damage, momentum, and essentially immaterial is silly. I'd be fine if the evading was removed. Quinessence and shard of wisdom cost more and together do essentially less what this shard does for :air.
Quintessence+Shard of Wisdom is something that makes imune from anything but 2 shields which aren't used too often. Also, you probably won't use quintessence anyway, because you use either creatures which are imortal already, or you use it with Anubis (well not often) or the aether nymph.
--> Further, in a pvp deck, you can only have 6 of these shards in your deck. Taking into acount, that with 2 shards out, it starts to get difficult, and with 3 shards, it gets silly to defeat this decks without some nice mass-CC, it probably really is a bit too strong.
A question, primarily to people who are creative deck builders.
1. If SoFr is used in a deck, ever made and played with a deck that has less than 5 of them inside? (All that I can say and have tested is that a Mono Air rush becomes a pretty average deck all of the sudden if there are only 4 SoFr in it.)
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For the aether cards I do not mean for respective element, but rather cost.
If you used quinessence and shard of wisdom you get essentially the same effect except the cost is more in quanta and cards. The attack boost from sof is greater for the mob, yet it costs even less.
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1. If SoFr is used in a deck, ever made and played with a deck that has less than 5 of them inside?
Sometimes, when you use Cremations/or Novas Decks (like Deja Vu Decks). That's why I feel increasing the cost of SoFree a bad idea. This shard is strong, but others shards are very powerfull too, I'm not for a nerf at all.
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The attack boost from sof is greater for the mob, yet it costs even less.
Not so true. Most of the time, a single shard of wisdom gives more attack strength. If you don't believe me you can calculate it through (but don't forget that a single shard only gives attack bonus 25 % of the time)
Sometimes, when you use Cremations/or Novas Decks (like Deja Vu Decks). That's why I feel increasing the cost of SoFree a bad idea. This shard is strong, but others shards are very powerfull too, I'm not for a nerf at all.
Well, a cost increase seems like a bad idea to me too, but there are other suggestions for nerfs as well.
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Well it depends on what we're talking about, a single elite wyrm would surpass sow in damage. It's also more likely that the air player would have a larger field than the aether player. The cost is lower too.
Again the stacking is what hurts, that 25% quickly increases. I'd really like to see a cap at 50, so no more than two shards matter. It still helps a lot, but doesn't get silly in my opinion.
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Well it depends on what we're talking about, a single elite wyrm would surpass sow in damage.
so you say, that the single (dived) elite wyrm gets with a shard of freedom more damage than with a SoW? Are you seriously using this as an argument...?!?
Lets make some proper argumentation instead.
4 shards of wisdom make 16 extra damage.
4 shard of freedom make 100 %. Have you ever thought about how many creatures you need to get up to that 16 damage? Three wyrms and a damsefly.
In the early game, a SoFr makes only 1-2 average extra damage, and SoW makes 4 from the beginning. At the end of the game, each single SoFr makes a tiny bit more (but only if you haven't drawn more than 4 shards) So don't say that SoFr adds more damage without thinking through it completely.
Again the stacking is what hurts, that 25% quickly increases. I'd really like to see a cap at 50, so no more than two shards matter. It still helps a lot, but doesn't get silly in my opinion.
What if I told you that there is a difference between nerfing and crippling...? Nerfing a card or effect by half has always been and will always be a bad idea.
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An elite wyrm with the double and shard effect can do 15. For one phase dragon I think its reasonable to say you could drop two wyrms. Two wyrms with dive, how is a single phase dragon stronger? Not even adding in chaos seed if your playing chaos wyrms.
Sure wisdom has more early potential, but freedom quickly adds up.
This card does to much to begin with, either the rate should go down or get rid of any effect.
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It is not the fault of the shard that the wyrms are that strong. And it isn't the shards fault either that chaos power is so useful with wyrms. We are talking about how OP the shard may be, not any other card.
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It is not the fault of the shard that the wyrms are that strong.
Really true, instead of nerfing SoFree, think about that (for the upped one) ;)
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The shard makes the wyrms op, a chaos wyrm without momentum, and protection isn't op.
I can agree that without the wyrms leaving the dragon and flys only, it's equivalent to shards of wisdom phase dragon.
I have not tried or faced, a sof/sob deck, but I wonder how well it intertwines with serph and phoenix.
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The shard makes the wyrms op, a chaos wyrm without momentum, and protection isn't op.
I can agree that without the wyrms leaving the dragon and flys only, it's equivalent to shards of wisdom phase dragon.
I have not tried or faced, a sof/sob deck, but I wonder how well it intertwines with serph and phoenix.
And pretty please don't say sof when talking about shard of freedom. it is sofr. sof could refer to shard of focus as well and tends to cunfuse people.
And for a sofr-seraph combo you would need a trio deck (fire-light-aether), so you will hardly encounter it in pvp games.
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I have not tried or faced, a sof/sob deck, but I wonder how well it intertwines with serph and phoenix.
They are pretty good rush decks, but it's hard to play 6 SoFree in those decks. Furthermore, creatures are targetable since they are :fire. But Crema/Lava Destroyer, SN Speedbow, SoI, Deja Vu, Fractals/Balls and so on are also fast... SoFree take his best place in a Mono-Air (quick rush also, but no PC - think about Sundial -, and very vulnerable to RoF and Pande).
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If the issue is really Chaos Wyrms, which the argument implies when claiming the time it takes to wind up SoFr outweighs its later efficiency, then one could have evasion apply to buffs
Bonus: gives a reason to use Pegasus over Wyrm in a SoFr deck
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I've been trying the immolation style with sofr and sob. Works well with the seraphs, but I only have 3 sofr. Without the evasion the shard really isn't that powerful.
Actually I think thats a better idea.
The stronger/"bigger" the creature the less agile it is, so the less percentage of evasion it has.
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I agree with serprex about making SoFree affect opponent's field too, just like Nightfall. That would be a nurf that wouldn't make this card weaker. :)
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Not only does SoFre give a % increase in attack but it also gives a % chance to dodge shields and a % increase to evade targeting... IMO that makes it a but too much. Take away the 'dodge' and 'evade' and I'd be fine with it...
Making SoFre affect both sides of the field would remove Steal as an effective means of dealing with it and only leave Deflag and Pulvy... not the best of ideas IMO...
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Not only does SoFre give a % increase in attack but it also gives a % chance to dodge shields and a % increase to evade targeting... IMO that makes it a but too much. Take away the 'dodge' and 'evade' and I'd be fine with it...
So, since it makes "three things", you want to "remove two" to make it balanced? Tell me more about how this would make this card balanced instead of UP. At least in my country, "nerfing to the bottom of the well" is considered a bad thing.
Making SoFre affect both sides of the field would remove Steal as an effective means of dealing with it and only leave Deflag and Pulvy... not the best of ideas IMO...
It would remove stealing, but it would add several other flying creatures which would get effective against mono air, because their fog shield would be rendered useless. For example, mono air would have little chance against mono darkness eclipse+vampires (which would drain 9 live per turn) and gargoyles or obsidian dragons on top. Further, against a seraph cremation bravery rush it would get much more difficult as well, because seraphs as well as minor phoenixes will get the attack buffs as well.
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The only thing I have a problem with is the evasion part.
It creates sort of an immaterial rush.
I like footafron's idea of lowering the dodgechance depending on it's hp.
However, damsels are not a problem for their low damage, and dragons are not a problem because of their high cost;
and wyrms don't have high hp...
also, note that unupped dragons will have a better dodge% than upped this way.
... How about leaving a spell in hand if it's dodged? you'll have to re-pay the quanta cost in order to use it again.
It may be a bit useless vs all those 1 :rainbow spells, though...
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One thing that would be nice in my opinion are more AoE CC spells, since these bypass SoFre. Also, outside the arena regular PC usually helps a lot. (in arena I prefer packing SoSac and letting SoFre backfire).
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I just noticed that this shard allows delayed creatures to attack. I think this should be removed.
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I just noticed that this shard allows delayed creatures to attack. I think this should be removed.
It doesn't, that's a display bug only.
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If a platinum arena deck has an air mark, you will see Damselfly, Shard of Freedom, and Wyrm without exception. In fact, it was the millionth time I saw this deck that I decided to come here and see if Shard of Freedom made an appearance on this forum.
Suggested fixes:
-Change the way the math works. .75^(Number of shards) = chance of not-triggering. one shard 25%, two shards 44%, three shards 58%, four shards 68%
-Untargetability AND double damage AND shield evasion is a bit too good, don't you think? How about untargetability and shield evasion only? Untargetability and double damage only? 100% untargetability only? 100% double damage only?
-DON'T allow shard of freedom to stack. Shard of Patience doesn't give +4/+4 each turn if you have two.
Suggested new cards:
-Flying/Air creatures get +1/+0 each turn (<~~Synergizes nicely with Sky Blitz)
-Flying/Air creatures gain (2x Air quanta): Dive
-Flying/Air creatures gain +1/+0 (similar to Nightfall), and cannot be targeted.
-Flying/Air creatures gain +1/+0 (similar to nightfall), and evade shields.
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If a platinum arena deck has an air mark, you will see Damselfly, Shard of Freedom, and Wyrm without exception. In fact, it was the millionth time I saw this deck that I decided to come here and see if Shard of Freedom made an appearance on this forum.
Suggested fixes:
-Change the way the math works. .75^(Number of shards) = chance of not-triggering. one shard 25%, two shards 44%, three shards 58%, four shards 68%
-Untargetability AND double damage AND shield evasion is a bit too good, don't you think? How about untargetability and shield evasion only? Untargetability and double damage only? 100% untargetability only? 100% double damage only?
-DON'T allow shard of freedom to stack. Shard of Patience doesn't give +4/+4 each turn if you have two.
Suggested new cards:
-Flying/Air creatures get +1/+0 each turn (<~~Synergizes nicely with Sky Blitz)
-Flying/Air creatures gain (2x Air quanta): Dive
-Flying/Air creatures gain +1/+0 (similar to Nightfall), and cannot be targeted.
-Flying/Air creatures gain +1/+0 (similar to nightfall), and evade shields.
Not stacking would make it borderline useless. As several people have mentioned, just make it multiplicative, that would solve half the issues. Any other nerf could be decided after that nerf.
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Until dim shield gets nerfed, this card doesn't deserve to be nerfed. So I'm gonna say what people in favor of dim shield have said to me: Stop complaining and use some permanent control. Noob. Plenty of ways to deal with decks that use Sofr.
(how does it feel?)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d8/wildhappytime/Smileys%20and%20Icons/laugh.gif)
Priceless.
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Until dim shield gets nerfed, this card doesn't deserve to be nerfed. So I'm gonna say what people in favor of dim shield have said to me: Stop complaining and use some permanent control. Noob. Plenty of ways to deal with decks that use Sofr.
(how does it feel?)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d8/wildhappytime/Smileys%20and%20Icons/laugh.gif)
Priceless.
looooooooooooooooooool, they're 2 different cards...
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looooooooooooooooooool, they're 2 different cards...
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d8/wildhappytime/Smileys%20and%20Icons/laugh.gif)
Priceless.
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I don't think I grasp the back-and-forth lol-ing and laughing-emoticon-smileys here, but SoFr decks are quite devastated by area-of-effects: Rain of Fire, Pandemonium, Thunderstorm, Plague. None of these are PC which also itself is a good reaction/counter to SoFr-spam. This is of course taking in to account the 'six per deck' limit with makes the argument quite different from discussing a double-draw AI which could have/draw/play up to TWELVE of them making the PC-angle nearly impossible to utilize.
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I don't think I grasp the back-and-forth lol-ing and laughing-emoticon-smileys here, but SoFr decks are quite devastated by area-of-effects: Rain of Fire, Pandemonium, Thunderstorm, Plague.
Until a Shard of Freedom or two hit the board. Suddenly, half the field is unaffected by your area-of-effect spell.
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I don't think I grasp the back-and-forth lol-ing and laughing-emoticon-smileys here, but SoFr decks are quite devastated by area-of-effects: Rain of Fire, Pandemonium, Thunderstorm, Plague.
Until a Shard of Freedom or two hit the board. Suddenly, half the field is unaffected by your area-of-effect spell.
AoE is not evaded by SoFr.
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So I'm probably just parroting what other people have said, but this card simply does too much for too little cost. On my very first try to build a deck using it I came up with a partially upgraded 5 TTW rush deck that was highly resistant to stalling and cc. That should NOT happen.
I also feel that this card completely overshadows sky blitz.
I think changing the stacking to multiplicative would be a great start.
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So I'm probably just parroting what other people have said, but this card simply does too much for too little cost. On my very first try to build a deck using it I came up with a partially upgraded 5 TTW rush deck that was highly resistant to stalling and cc. That should NOT happen.
I also feel that this card completely overshadows sky blitz.
I think changing the stacking to multiplicative would be a great start.
It actually enhances Sky Blitz quite a bit, since you get 50% more damage off the 2x damage Sky Blitz provides.
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So I'm probably just parroting what other people have said, but this card simply does too much for too little cost. On my very first try to build a deck using it I came up with a partially upgraded 5 TTW rush deck that was highly resistant to stalling and cc. That should NOT happen.
I also feel that this card completely overshadows sky blitz.
I think changing the stacking to multiplicative would be a great start.
u need to "waste" 6 slots in your deck for having a decent chance of getting a 100% double damage (and u need 4 shards simultaneously) and evasion (that doesn't protect u against rain of fire, that is used in almost every :fire deck stall).
also the evasion is only for :air creatures, i think is a totally balanced card
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@Manuel You forgot about the shield evasion part.
This card is a mass buff, anti-CC buff and anti-shield-PC in one card, for 2|1. It has strong in-element-synergies with Wyrm and Sky Blitz. Its rushing capabilities get much greater with the in-element Damselfly. The only real counters are mass-CC (not too common, and the Chaos Power-version will prepare for that pretty well) and SoSac. PC can get you somewhere, but Deflag is not even more expensive than the shard, but you will also need to pack a lot, which you likely won't unless you predict a perm-heavy deck. Its consistency is great, the chance to get a faildraw aren't as high as with other decks. Last but not least, Fog Shield brings another strong card to ensure your rush will be faster (unless you face an Immorush, which on the other hand has lower consistency), and if PC is used against it, it can't be used on shards.
Unupped SoFree decks aren't so overpowered because of the lower Wyrm's attack and that Dragonfly has a casting cost and lower attack. In upped, this is one of the strongest decks of all, and it is most about the shard.
Btw: Rain of Fire isn't used very often in Fire Stalls, at least not in the most popular Sanc-Firestall.
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I think changing the stacking to multiplicative would be a great start.
Sounds like a good suggestion. When 3-4 hit the field, it really becomes a big problem and this addresses that. Also reduces the incentive of bringing 6 of them, which is part of the reason why PC is somewhat ineffective at countering this.
PC as a counter to this card is almost like using Heal to counter a Dragon.
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It actually enhances Sky Blitz quite a bit, since you get 50% more damage off the 2x damage Sky Blitz provides.
I initially thought this would be the case, but what I've found in practice is that by the time I'm ready for the blitz a halfway decent skyshard deck has already killed the opponent. After a dozen games or so of never using blitz I took it out.'
u need to "waste" 6 slots in your deck for having a decent chance of getting a 100% double damage (and u need 4 shards simultaneously) and evasion (that doesn't protect u against rain of fire, that is used in almost every :fire deck stall).
The fact that a counter exists does NOT make a card balanced.
Imagine if a new card was put into the game called "Shield of Awesome" it reduces incoming damage by 7 points, reflects spells and only costs 1 quanta, but it's not indestructible so it can be easily countered by permanent control. "Shield of Awesome" would still be obviously OP because it does more than the cost of the card justifies.
You do not "need" 6 copies of the shard in your deck--you still benefit even if there's only one of them. Most people put 6 copies in deck simply because the card is so powerful.
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I would change the card to read:
Airborne creatures gain a 25% chance to deal +50% damage, deal spell damage, and evade targeting if :air
Adding two counters isn't a whole lot, but if you cannot remove the SoFree, that counter will hit back hard, making the card risky to use.
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It actually enhances Sky Blitz quite a bit, since you get 50% more damage off the 2x damage Sky Blitz provides.
I initially thought this would be the case, but what I've found in practice is that by the time I'm ready for the blitz a halfway decent skyshard deck has already killed the opponent. After a dozen games or so of never using blitz I took it out.'
u need to "waste" 6 slots in your deck for having a decent chance of getting a 100% double damage (and u need 4 shards simultaneously) and evasion (that doesn't protect u against rain of fire, that is used in almost every :fire deck stall).
The fact that a counter exists does NOT make a card balanced.
Imagine if a new card was put into the game called "Shield of Awesome" it reduces incoming damage by 7 points, reflects spells and only costs 1 quanta, but it's not indestructible so it can be easily countered by permanent control. "Shield of Awesome" would still be obviously OP because it does more than the cost of the card justifies.
You do not "need" 6 copies of the shard in your deck--you still benefit even if there's only one of them. Most people put 6 copies in deck simply because the card is so powerful.
lol the shield of awesone, soooo funny, really
this is the only card in elements that require 4 copies at the same time in the field for x effect, if u have 5 or 6 on the field on the field, only 4 has effect, the other 2 are dead cards (most of times) or can replace the destroyed shards (and this mean that for a turn u didn't have the 100%)
at the same time, in the field, u need a decent number of creature, or shards are useless, so the optimal thing is probably 3 shards and 3 creature (at least one wyrm?)
those are a lot of requirements, i think, to explain why this card is somewhat balanced. is a support card lol, alone doesn't do anything, is totally different from a stand alone (or from your really funny joke shield of awesome!!!) card that does something (sundial)or a combo of two cards (dis + bhole).
where this card is played:
fake gods: they don't use shards
pvp1: unupped wyrms are so underpowered, any other cheap airborne creature doesn't have the evasion
pvp2: i don't play pvp2, so idk
pvp1/2 tournaments: shards are banned from most of them
bronze: lol shards
silver: if u find the guy with upped wyrms can be scary, but i think is really rare a silver player with a decent number of shards and upped wyrms
gold: in gold a good 40% of players still don't know what they are doing, in the top 50 there are 5 air decks (10%), i think u will find something like 8% air deck in all the gold league?
platinum: here u have no no excuses, is the last league in the game, with poison dials is an autowin, swallow gets outrushed (swallow gets outrushed in general)
so i think the problem is in gold and platinum?
i didn't farm gold so much (i actually start doing it with a sofree deck that has a decent winrate against other sofree!!!!), but removing the 40% of players that buid terrible decks, removing every other elements, if your deck has a decent winrate all decks, i don't think is a problem if u lose a 10% of the battles because your deck can't handle it, which in a tcg with a lot of variety is totally normal?
the plat arena has a compilation of even better combos, so what is the point of trying (or simply talking) to nerf a single card that is pseudo balanced?
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...or can replace the destroyed shards (and this mean that for a turn u didn't have the 100%)
No, because in such a situation, you would replace the shard immediately, returning the percentage to 100% before any attacks.
pvp2: i don't play pvp2, so idk
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so i think the problem is in gold and platinum?
Most of the problem is in upgraded PvP, the area of play you didn't cover. While shards are banned in most tournaments, many other PvP environments allow shards, and in those metagames it tends to range from simply powerful to borderline broken.
Even ignoring that, looking at effect/cost, even after considering cost in terms of quanta, time, and card advantage, SoFr would appear to be really strong compared to other cards that overlap parts of it's effect.
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at the same time, in the field, u need a decent number of creature, or shards are useless, so the optimal thing is probably 3 shards and 3 creature (at least one wyrm?)
those are a lot of requirements, i think, to explain why this card is somewhat balanced. is a support card lol, alone doesn't do anything, is totally different from a stand alone (or from your really funny joke shield of awesome!!!) card that does something (sundial)or a combo of two cards (dis + bhole).
Are you trying to say that cards like Sky Blitz and Fractal are weak and underpowered just because they rely on creatures? A card that has the assumption that you have creatures on the field is not a weak one.
Also, SoFr is not expensive at all. You can easily make a rush with Damsels, Elite Wyrms, and SoFr and have much more than just 3 shards and 3 creatures (where did you get those numbers anyways?). Besides, 3 SoFr is not optimal use.
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Can anyone name a deck that has an extremely high chance of beating SouFflé decks?
I mean, Immortal follows this same principle; It's REALLY hard to kill an immortal, more so than SouFflé, I'd argue.
But we don't complain about immortal for a number of reasons, those being that's it's slow, easy to outrush, and blockable with shields/dials.
What's slow, easy to outrush, and blockable about SouFflé? Immortal trades speed for resilience. What does SouFfflé trade? It's not like they would play anything in place of those 5-6 SouFflés.
And before you go on about SoW, yeah, guess how many people think immortal SoW isn't an issue, either.
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Are you trying to say that cards like Sky Blitz and Fractal are weak and underpowered just because they rely on creatures? A card that has the assumption that you have creatures on the field is not a weak one.
rofl
i don't see the sense of calling sky blitz or fractal, they are totally different cards
Also, SoFr is not expensive at all. You can easily make a rush with Damsels, Elite Wyrms, and SoFr and have much more than just 3 shards and 3 creatures (where did you get those numbers anyways?). Besides, 3 SoFr is not optimal use.
uhm no, i wasn't talking about that, i was talking about having a decent/suboptimal board where SoFs and wyrms can make the difference, i am not talking about using 3 wyrms and 3 SoFs in a deck, english is not my first language
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With 2 Damsels and 2 Wyrms on the field, a SoFr is worth 3 damage. This is more efficient than a Giant Frog, and does not include an evaluation of shield bypass or evasion. It's impossible to outscale SoFr by playing "something else". You need to hard counter it (Dials, SoSa, repeatable PC, mass CC)