[Official] Reverse Time | Rewind

[omegareaper7]

I'm too busy laughing at the "eternity is balanced becasue it can be destroyed with PC arguement.
Did anyone stop to think that PC is currently underused? That several elements don't have PC? That many deck types don't run any PC?
I know this is the wrong place for it, this is a discussion on rewind, but it's directly related to eternity so 
Now let's continue, the eternity/rewind is OP for 2 key reasons:
1) Forced draw denial
2) It ignores creature HP - a point zanz was very adamant about

Sure eternity can be destoryed by PC, but ooh say what if you didn't have any PC in your hand or on the field - not an uncommon situation. Perhaps you have one somehwere else in your deck, but alas you'll probably never draw it because your opponent is going to continue to rewind again and again and again.

CC is creature control, not deck control, see where I'm going here?

With the addition of shard of focus, just about every deck is able to run permanent control. Not to mention there is burst damage, creature less decks, immortal creatures, other methods of permanent control, poison could also be used. And on top of all that, eternity won't see  a ton of use unless the deck is built around it.
Now pray tell, is there a deck that is currently doing really well that is based around eternity? Not ghostmare, that is a combo deck that doesn't specify that but nightmare as well.

[OldTrees]

I'm too busy laughing at the "eternity is balanced becasue it can be destroyed with PC arguement.
Did anyone stop to think that PC is currently underused? That several elements don't have PC? That many deck types don't run any PC?
I know this is the wrong place for it, this is a discussion on rewind, but it's directly related to eternity so 

I agree that being able to be destroyed is an incomplete picture (effect xor cost). Incomplete pictures are worthless for balance discussions.

Now let's continue, the eternity/rewind is OP for 2 key reasons:
1) Forced draw denial
2) It ignores creature HP - a point zanz was very adamant about

1) Incomplete picture. There is a price for which forced draw denial would be balanced.

2) Zanz disliked hard CC that ignored creature hp. Reverse Time is reversible and thus not hard CC.

[KeY533]

I think reverse time is pretty strong but a nerf on the mana cost to 3 unupped, 2 upped would be enough.

[Picheleiro]

I think reverse time is pretty strong but a nerf on the mana cost to 3 unupped, 2 upped would be enough.

 

[mesaprotector]

I've been posting a lot in this thread, but: Reverse Time is similar in strength, effect, and versatility to Silence.

Reverse Time:
*denies opponent a draw for 1 turn
*can be used to help prevent deckout
*denies all drawing when chained (assuming no counter)
*removes creature buffs and forces opponent to repay the cost of the creature
*can be chained indefinitely by using Eternity
*works well with Nightmare

Silence:
*prevents opponent from playing cards for 1 turn
*can be used to prevent Miracle, Fractal, etc.
*prevents opponent from playing anything when chained (assuming no counter)
*works well with Nightmare

Since Silence costs 3 / 2 , we should either buff it or nerf Reverse Time.

[OldTrees]

@mesaprotector

You have convinced me. 3 |2 + 1 card

[Arum]

The problem lies in the stall mechanics.  By placing a card on top of the deck, players can endlessly stall themselves or their opponents.  Both of these are detrimental to the game.  It sidesteps the possibility of decking out, and can create an impossible situation for decks that cannot draw more cards.  On top of that, the AI is practically unaffected by this, as they draw extra cards, plus it's even harder to counter their RT's, as a deck with 3x time and a protected Eternity can stall you forever.

This is not entirely accurate. Reverse time doesn't allow you to infinitely do anything, eternity does.  And there is a very fine way around a protected eternity. It is also a two card combo. I'll let others address that for now.
As for the proposed nerf. That pretty much removes any usefulness it might see. What about decks that don't buff creatures? Shall it do nothing against a good portion of decks and be super situational like purify was?

Aye, but the Eternity has an ability, and coupled with PA and 6 rewinds, you're anti-deckout. Decks that don't buff creatures can easily use this to undo momentum, mitosis, BE, or whatever. Also, there is an interesting mechanic with this, called a false buff. Buff the enemy creatures, whittle them down to the amount the buff is, and then rewind, which will undo the buff, and therefor undo the extra health, effectively killing enemies without direct CC. Also, this doesn't trigger death effect because the creature is already dead.

I'd suggest have it undo two turns (maybe one turn that upgrades into two turns) that a creature has gone through.  I think that having the same mechanic, but limiting the potential, is the way to go.

That would be the way to go for the upgrade, with 3 cost.

[Cheesy111]

Spoiler for Hidden:

The problem lies in the stall mechanics.  By placing a card on top of the deck, players can endlessly stall themselves or their opponents.  Both of these are detrimental to the game.  It sidesteps the possibility of decking out, and can create an impossible situation for decks that cannot draw more cards.  On top of that, the AI is practically unaffected by this, as they draw extra cards, plus it's even harder to counter their RT's, as a deck with 3x time and a protected Eternity can stall you forever.

This is not entirely accurate. Reverse time doesn't allow you to infinitely do anything, eternity does.  And there is a very fine way around a protected eternity. It is also a two card combo. I'll let others address that for now.
As for the proposed nerf. That pretty much removes any usefulness it might see. What about decks that don't buff creatures? Shall it do nothing against a good portion of decks and be super situational like purify was?

Aye, but the Eternity has an ability, and coupled with PA and 6 rewinds, you're anti-deckout. Decks that don't buff creatures can easily use this to undo momentum, mitosis, BE, or whatever. Also, there is an interesting mechanic with this, called a false buff. Buff the enemy creatures, whittle them down to the amount the buff is, and then rewind, which will undo the buff, and therefor undo the extra health, effectively killing enemies without direct CC. Also, this doesn't trigger death effect because the creature is already dead.

I'd suggest have it undo two turns (maybe one turn that upgrades into two turns) that a creature has gone through.  I think that having the same mechanic, but limiting the potential, is the way to go.

That would be the way to go for the upgrade, with 3 cost.

The heck are you talking about.  PA'd Eternity and 6 RTs can be decked out.  Yes, RT undoes mitosis or BE.

So let me get this straight.  You use Blessing on an enemy Photon, and then whittle down its HP with.....what exactly?  Stuff that does damage IS HARD CC.  And even if, for some reason, you decided to Bless an enemy Photon, take it down one HP to 3 with a Thunderstorm, and then RT it, why the heck didn't you just thunderstorm it in the first place?

Undoing one/two turns makes it a 'hate card' much like purify.  Hate cards are bad, mkay.  They make cards too situational, and I do NOT want that happening to RT as well.

Also, note for Fayceless: Double draw without two or more eternities (needs flying weapon..) means FGs/Platinum decks will deck out without purposefully hand crowding. 

I've been posting a lot in this thread, but: Reverse Time is similar in strength, effect, and versatility to Silence.

Reverse Time:
*denies opponent a draw for 1 turn
*can be used to help prevent deckout
*denies all drawing when chained (assuming no counter)
*removes creature buffs and forces opponent to repay the cost of the creature
*can be chained indefinitely by using Eternity
*works well with Nightmare

Silence:
*prevents opponent from playing cards for 1 turn
*can be used to prevent Miracle, Fractal, etc.
*prevents opponent from playing anything when chained (assuming no counter)
*works well with Nightmare

Since Silence costs 3 / 2 , we should either buff it or nerf Reverse Time.

RT is nowhere close to being as versatile as Silence.  RT only affects non-immortal non-burrowed creature decks.  Silence affects all non-sanctuary decks that use cards.  RT cannot be chained indefinitely, it can only be chained for as long as the opponent has creatures on the field. 

[Jenkar]

The problem lies in the stall mechanics.  By placing a card on top of the deck, players can endlessly stall themselves or their opponents.  Both of these are detrimental to the game.  It sidesteps the possibility of decking out, and can create an impossible situation for decks that cannot draw more cards.  On top of that, the AI is practically unaffected by this, as they draw extra cards, plus it's even harder to counter their RT's, as a deck with 3x time and a protected Eternity can stall you forever.

This is not entirely accurate. Reverse time doesn't allow you to infinitely do anything, eternity does.  And there is a very fine way around a protected eternity. It is also a two card combo. I'll let others address that for now.
As for the proposed nerf. That pretty much removes any usefulness it might see. What about decks that don't buff creatures? Shall it do nothing against a good portion of decks and be super situational like purify was?

Aye, but the Eternity has an ability, and coupled with PA and 6 rewinds, you're anti-deckout. Decks that don't buff creatures can easily use this to undo momentum, mitosis, BE, or whatever. Also, there is an interesting mechanic with this, called a false buff. Buff the enemy creatures, whittle them down to the amount the buff is, and then rewind, which will undo the buff, and therefor undo the extra health, effectively killing enemies without direct CC. Also, this doesn't trigger death effect because the creature is already dead.

You are required to speak intelligible english on forums :v

[Higurashi]

Also, there is an interesting mechanic with this, called a false buff. Buff the enemy creatures, whittle them down to the amount the buff is, and then rewind, which will undo the buff, and therefor undo the extra health, effectively killing enemies without direct CC. Also, this doesn't trigger death effect because the creature is already dead.

That's not how RT works at all. When you Rewind a creature, the owner gets the original copy of the card in his hand. Any HP alteration is completely undone. There's no way to kill without direct CC. While on that topic, direct CC is, as Cheesy has mentioned, direct damage. In other words, you can't whittle down HP without direct CC.

Do you play this game at all? It's pretty irresponsible to spout complete misinformation about the basic mechanics of the game.

As for the poll, I see I voted for a cost increase when it was made. I can see how I was thinking. A +1 cost to both would reflect how many things this single card does and wouldn't hurt the decks that use it too badly.

[shileka]

Also, there is an interesting mechanic with this, called a false buff. Buff the enemy creatures, whittle them down to the amount the buff is, and then rewind, which will undo the buff, and therefor undo the extra health, effectively killing enemies without direct CC. Also, this doesn't trigger death effect because the creature is already dead.

That's not how RT works at all. When you Rewind a creature, the owner gets the original copy of the card in his hand. Any HP alteration is completely undone. There's no way to kill without direct CC. While on that topic, direct CC is, as Cheesy has mentioned, direct damage. In other words, you can't whittle down HP without direct CC.

Do you play this game at all? It's pretty irresponsible to spout complete misinformation about the basic mechanics of the game.

As for the poll, I see I voted for a cost increase when it was made. I can see how I was thinking. A +1 cost to both would reflect how many things this single card does and wouldn't hurt the decks that use it too badly.

didn't RT put the creature at the top of the oponents deck?

[Arum]

Also, there is an interesting mechanic with this, called a false buff. Buff the enemy creatures, whittle them down to the amount the buff is, and then rewind, which will undo the buff, and therefor undo the extra health, effectively killing enemies without direct CC. Also, this doesn't trigger death effect because the creature is already dead.

That's not how RT works at all. When you Rewind a creature, the owner gets the original copy of the card in his hand. Any HP alteration is completely undone. There's no way to kill without direct CC. While on that topic, direct CC is, as Cheesy has mentioned, direct damage. In other words, you can't whittle down HP without direct CC.

Do you play this game at all? It's pretty irresponsible to spout complete misinformation about the basic mechanics of the game.

As for the poll, I see I voted for a cost increase when it was made. I can see how I was thinking. A +1 cost to both would reflect how many things this single card does and wouldn't hurt the decks that use it too badly.

Uh, what? I was talking about the nerf version, where it undoes status effects, so yeah. Think before you post, mistress.