[Official] Reverse Time | Rewind

[memimemi]

Guys, no offense, but this is Reverse Time/Rewind thread and I feel you've gone out of topic and you discuss about CC and PC in general but you don't even mention RT anymore. So, please, return back to RT discussion...

^^^ This.  Awesome discussion, especially appreciate OldTrees' points on cost/benefit of win conditions vs. counters.  Is there another thread to link to?

Topic:

Not sure if it's a nerf for RT, or a buff to Voodoo Doll and Reflecting/Emerald Shield, but why not just make RT vulnerable to those effects?  Say, if it's reflected/Voodooed, your weapon (Eternity nerf, ahoy!) is returned to your hand, or you have to skip a turn?

[OldTrees]

Guys, no offense, but this is Reverse Time/Rewind thread and I feel you've gone out of topic and you discuss about CC and PC in general but you don't even mention RT anymore. So, please, return back to RT discussion...

^^^ This.  Awesome discussion, especially appreciate OldTrees' points on cost/benefit of win conditions vs. counters.  Is there another thread to link to?

Topic:

Not sure if it's a nerf for RT, or a buff to Voodoo Doll and Reflecting/Emerald Shield, but why not just make RT vulnerable to those effects?  Say, if it's reflected/Voodooed, your weapon (Eternity nerf, ahoy!) is returned to your hand, or you have to skip a turn?

@another thread
No. This is a point Atico continues to raise on CC threads (because it is relevant). I have tried to persuade him that he is being too harsh on CC (obviously not convincingly yet). The summary of the argument is:
Atico: CC is too cheap / easy. It should be harder.
OT: CC is less valuable than Win Conditions and must cost less than Win Conditions.
Obviously either or both of us could be correct.

@your suggestion
RT rewinding a weapon when targeting VD would be a buff to VD + RT. (It might be a good idea but would not be a nerf.)
RT does not target the opponent and thus would not be reflected.

[Atico]

We discuss about CC in overall because when we compare RT with other spells for 1 :quantum then this card is balanced. But I admit that mechanism of all cards like Lighting, BB, Rewind is OP.
In my opinion people see how OP these spells are only in Rewind, because they think that they must pay twice for the same card. They didn't see that Lighting/BB didn't give any chance to survive for 80-90% creatures. It is psychological thing probably, because Player didn't see that it is much better to have rewinded creature than destroyed (of course sometimes Rewind is annyoying, for example with Nightmare in Arena).

So Rewind in compare with Lighting, BB, QS etc. is balanced.
But (in my opinion) all spells which destroy opponent creatures/permaments/pillars/quantum and cost 1-3 are too powerful. Rewind shows You that it isn't fair when You put big creature and opponent can easily rewind it. Especially Dragons should survive all CC which are used once.

[OldTrees]

We discuss about CC in overall because when we compare RT with other spells for 1 :quantum then this card is balanced. But I admit that mechanism of all cards like Lighting, BB, Rewind is OP.

Please start using 2 |1 for the cost rather than 1 . It is imprecise to say the upgraded rewind costs 1 +1card when it costs 1 +1card+1upgrade. Hence using the unupped cost is usually more precise.

[ARTHANASIOS]

We discuss about CC in overall because when we compare RT with other spells for 1 :quantum then this card is balanced. But I admit that mechanism of all cards like Lighting, BB, Rewind is OP.
In my opinion people see how OP these spells are only in Rewind, because they think that they must pay twice for the same card. They didn't see that Lighting/BB didn't give any chance to survive for 80-90% creatures. It is psychological thing probably, because Player didn't see that it is much better to have rewinded creature than destroyed (of course sometimes Rewind is annyoying, for example with Nightmare in Arena).

So Rewind in compare with Lighting, BB, QS etc. is balanced.
But (in my opinion) all spells which destroy opponent creatures/permaments/pillars/quantum and cost 1-3 are too powerful. Rewind shows You that it isn't fair when You put big creature and opponent can easily rewind it. Especially Dragons should survive all CC which are used once.

We must also see how effective the card is in its element (mono-deck) and how cheap is to fit into any element (rainbow-deck). Lighning is really good for a rainbow deck (5 damage CC for 2 |1 ) but it is not a really great card in mono- decks (cards like Twin Universe or Dimensional Shield work better there IMO). On the other hand, Reverse Time is cheap enough to fit into a rainbow easily (though it is not the most preferred rainbow CC card) but it also rules in mono- or in duo- decks. Since Time has so many card-drawing effects, it can easily use RT both as a CC/draw-denial card and a "healing" card for an allied creature which is heavily damaged, poisoned etc. I personally view RT as powerful as Silence, so I think RT should have Silence's cost.

[OldTrees]

I personally view RT as powerful as Silence, so I think RT should have Silence's cost.

Silence 3 |2 + 1 card
Lightning 2 |1 + 1 card
Reverse Time 2 |1 + 1 card

Edit: I had the unupped cost wrong.

[furballdn]

Anyone else notice that RT has become a lot less common after the speedbow nerf?

[Laxadarap]

Yours arguments are good only in situation, when I can put all cards on field in one time. In normal game You put 1st creature, I kill it and put my 1st creature. You need probably few turns to put next creature (1-3 turns) and it is time when I have advantage. You put next creature and I kill it/use Rewind/use BB etc and put my 2nd creature. In first part of game I have 1-2 creatures more than You. It is big advantage. So please don't say that Lighting gives 5 damage for HP Status. It is only very situational skill. Lighting kills creatures - it is the main skill. When Lighting will hit only HP status then You will be right.
Problem is bigger when I have something like QS. Then You can never (or it is very difficult) put next big creature.
Why people think that Rewind is too powerful? Because it can hit all creatures and You lose one draw. They don't know that Lighting or BB effect is the same powerful as Rewind.

But... People like this. People like destroying. They don't like tactic, strategy. Only fast hit, big damage for opponent and win.
It is funny when I see that they want to nerf SoW, which gives +4/0 (because then can't do what they like - destroy it without shield), but they didn't see problem with 0/-5 card It is funny when it is easier to destroy opponent creature than protect Yourself.

I understand Your opinions. But please try understand also me. CC, PC are very powerful, not all elements has got it. People didn't play the most Fire or Darkness only because they like red or black colour. They didn't play Rainbows only because they didn't know which elements choose. All we know how strength is PC and CC. Why people didn't use Shockwave as often as Lighting? Because it is huge difference between -4 and -5 attack. Why RoF is popular card but Thunderstorm no? It shows which cards are too powerful (maybe not OP as one card, but OP with duo/trio/rainbows - especially QS).

You still have a huge whole in your logic.  LIGHTNING TAKES UP A CARD SPACE, PROBABLY A CREATURE SPACE.  You say that I play a card and it gets lightninged, and you play your creature.  IF YOU DRAW A LIGHTNING, YOU ARE NOT DRAWING A CREATURE.   It takes up the space.  So we would still be even, except I have allready done more damage to you.  If you are saying that it takes a lot of time to play the creature again, so you have time to draw one of yous, generally cheap creatures are the ones with the lower hp.  The "balance formua" for deciding cost gives an extra cost if the defense is over 5 (presumably for lightning/RP)  so theoretically, cheap creatures have low hp, and its not hard to play one the next turn.   

[ARTHANASIOS]

I personally view RT as powerful as Silence, so I think RT should have Silence's cost.

Silence 3 |2 + 1 card
Lightning 2 |1 + 1 card
Reverse Time 3 |1 + 1 card

When I write RT I also refet to Rewind, which is cheaper than upped Silence, so I think it must costs 2 instead of 1 . Also, Reverse Time (unupped) costs 2 and not 3 . I think Reverse Time/Rewind should cost 3 |2 and I would consider it balanced, nothing more nothing less. I also think Eternity should cost 7 |6 and not 6 |5 (too cheap in my opinion, after all it can infinitely prevent deckout, which is a lost condition).

[mega plini]

Anyone else notice that RT has become a lot less common after the speedbow nerf?

Actualy I did.

And why would anyone want to compare RT to Silence?! That doen't make any sense at all!

[OldTrees]

I personally view RT as powerful as Silence, so I think RT should have Silence's cost.

Silence 3 |2 + 1 card
Lightning 2 |1 + 1 card
Reverse Time 3 |1 + 1 card

When I write RT I also refet to Rewind, which is cheaper than upped Silence, so I think it must costs 2 instead of 1 . Also, Reverse Time (unupped) costs 2 and not 3 . I think Reverse Time/Rewind should cost 3 |2 and I would consider it balanced, nothing more nothing less. I also think Eternity should cost 7 |6 and not 6 |5 (too cheap in my opinion, after all it can infinitely prevent deckout, which is a lost condition).

Thanks for the correction. I don't know why I had the unupped cost wrong. (yet another reminder to double check everything)

[Atico]

Yours arguments are good only in situation, when I can put all cards on field in one time. In normal game You put 1st creature, I kill it and put my 1st creature. You need probably few turns to put next creature (1-3 turns) and it is time when I have advantage. You put next creature and I kill it/use Rewind/use BB etc and put my 2nd creature. In first part of game I have 1-2 creatures more than You. It is big advantage. So please don't say that Lighting gives 5 damage for HP Status. It is only very situational skill. Lighting kills creatures - it is the main skill. When Lighting will hit only HP status then You will be right.
Problem is bigger when I have something like QS. Then You can never (or it is very difficult) put next big creature.
Why people think that Rewind is too powerful? Because it can hit all creatures and You lose one draw. They don't know that Lighting or BB effect is the same powerful as Rewind.

But... People like this. People like destroying. They don't like tactic, strategy. Only fast hit, big damage for opponent and win.
It is funny when I see that they want to nerf SoW, which gives +4/0 (because then can't do what they like - destroy it without shield), but they didn't see problem with 0/-5 card It is funny when it is easier to destroy opponent creature than protect Yourself.

I understand Your opinions. But please try understand also me. CC, PC are very powerful, not all elements has got it. People didn't play the most Fire or Darkness only because they like red or black colour. They didn't play Rainbows only because they didn't know which elements choose. All we know how strength is PC and CC. Why people didn't use Shockwave as often as Lighting? Because it is huge difference between -4 and -5 attack. Why RoF is popular card but Thunderstorm no? It shows which cards are too powerful (maybe not OP as one card, but OP with duo/trio/rainbows - especially QS).

You still have a huge whole in your logic.  LIGHTNING TAKES UP A CARD SPACE, PROBABLY A CREATURE SPACE.  You say that I play a card and it gets lightninged, and you play your creature.  IF YOU DRAW A LIGHTNING, YOU ARE NOT DRAWING A CREATURE.   It takes up the space.  So we would still be even, except I have allready done more damage to you.  If you are saying that it takes a lot of time to play the creature again, so you have time to draw one of yous, generally cheap creatures are the ones with the lower hp.  The "balance formua" for deciding cost gives an extra cost if the defense is over 5 (presumably for lightning/RP)  so theoretically, cheap creatures have low hp, and its not hard to play one the next turn.

At start You have 7 cards in hand, to put big creature You need next 3-4 turns (=10 cards in hand/field). It is highly probable that You will have 2 creatures in hand and I will have 1 creature + 1 Lighting/BB/Rewind/etc. So I can easy destroy Your creature and put my own dragon in the same turn.
Of course all depends on lucky and draw.