[Official] Reverse Time | Rewind

[OldTrees]

@Chapuz
Yes. However I try to learn from each of my posts.

Now I have not mentioned things like removing buffs. Frankly these high tier CC cards don't have much respect for buffs in the first place. Buffs don't matter when dead or delayed 6 turns. Why would they matter when RT'd?

if you are using buff cards, you likely have a non rush deck, probably a stall or big deck. In such a case, 6 turns likely can be waited out. Additionally, many buff cards give more HP, so they prevent the creature from becoming dead. You also ignored the quanta cost having to be repaid to resummon the creature. Add in we have no multiuse lightning card, and the multiuse BB card is a very rare nymph. multiuse RT, eternity,  is a regular rare weapon.

I still stand by my opinion that this is an automatic kill of a creature ignoring HP, buffs, and anything else in exchange for an extra copy of the card when you likely had extras anyways.

Snipe is similar to multiuse lightning.
Rarity is irrelevant.

Thanks for catching the typo about casting cost.

Buffs are used in Stall decks? I would have though it to fit the fast but fragile rush theme. Aka Chaos Ball Lightning or Adrenal Frogs.

Why would you have extras of a card? Multiple copies usually have the quanta available for each. Any additions are extras but the deck does not bring extras.

Your opinion is accurate but balance is relative not objective. Hence I use comparisons. Thanks for helping make the comparisons more accurate.

[ARTHANASIOS]

^ Rarity in definitely not irrelevant. If it is, then why are we tremendously happy if we get a new Nymph from the Oracle? Why we farm Arena in order to get upped/unupped Shards or Rare Weapons? And if rarity is irrelevant, then why rare cards are usually much stronger than the common cards?
 About Reverse Time, buff and nerf effects matter in this case because RT can remove all positive or negative effects from a target by returning the creature to the top of the owner's deck. That includes Basilisk Blood, Freeze, Poison, Blessing, Chaos Power, SoP's buff, Butterfly effect, etc. You can also use RT to 'refresh' your Shard of Focus or your Armagio. And we shouldn't forget the pretty nasty combo of Mutation + Rewind...
 Anyway, I think RT does a lot of different things pretty well for a pretty low price. A +1 to the cost is a very good balance IMO.
 As for Lightning, it is effective only against creatures with 5 or less hp and it needs combos in order to slain creatures with 6 or more hp. Rewind is effective against every non-Immortal creature.

[omegareaper7]

^ Rarity in definitely not irrelevant. If it is, then why are we tremendously happy if we get a new Nymph from the Oracle? ]

Rarity is irrelevant when balancing cards. I'm pretty sure thats what OldTrees meant.

[OldTrees]

^ Rarity in definitely not irrelevant. If it is, then why are we tremendously happy if we get a new Nymph from the Oracle? Why we farm Arena in order to get upped/unupped Shards or Rare Weapons? And if rarity is irrelevant, then why rare cards are usually much stronger than the common cards?

Let me clarify:
Rare cards are under additional design restrictions.
1) Rare cards are meant to be more balanced than common cards. Imbalance causes more harm if the source is rare.
2) Rare cards are less frequent than common cards. Thus they are designed to be useful in low or high quantities. This leads to more powerful and more expensive cards (Nymphs and Weapons).

About Reverse Time, buff and nerf effects matter in this case because RT can remove all positive or negative effects from a target by returning the creature to the top of the owner's deck. That includes Basilisk Blood, Freeze, Poison, Blessing, Chaos Power, SoP's buff, Butterfly effect, etc. You can also use RT to 'refresh' your Shard of Focus or your Armagio. And we shouldn't forget the pretty nasty combo of Mutation + Rewind...
 Anyway, I think RT does a lot of different things pretty well for a pretty low price. A +1 to the cost is a very good balance IMO.
 As for Lightning, it is effective only against creatures with 5 or less hp and it needs combos in order to slain creatures with 6 or more hp. Rewind is effective against every non-Immortal creature.

Reverse Time, Basilisk Blood and Lightning can all neutralize positive effects on the target creature.

If the creature in question has more than 5hp then it is likely going to be replayed. In this case the Basilisk Blood is the appropriate comparison.

[Fayceless]

Reverse Time's effect on a creature is, in some cases, bigger than other CC cards, but that's not the big issue:  the problem is what it does in addition to affecting a creature.  It stalls.  It not only gets rid of a creature and wastes quantum but wastes a draw as well.  When used on your own creatures, it allows a deck to sidestep game mechanics and play much longer than it should be able to.

The CC can be considered balanced, sure, but it's the added stall component that makes it OP.  Simply placing the card back in the hand first, deck second (if hand is full) makes RT much more balanced overall.  Ghostmare wouldn't be affected much. (more in arena because AI is dumb with card play order - knowing the AI it'd play RT first then nightmare  )  And self-stalls would still be possible, just more difficult to pull off. (this would be a good thing!)

As it stands, RT simply does too much.  It just needs to be toned down a bit.  What it does to a creature is okay.  What it does to a deck at the same time, is where the problem lies.

Another possible suggestion:  Delay creature 1 turn, then return to hand.  Loses no CC functionality(in some cases it's better), loses the stall (usually)

[Naesala]

Another possible suggestion:  Delay creature 1 turn, then return to hand.  Loses no CC functionality(in some cases it's better), loses the stall (usually)

I really like this, great idea

[Atico]

Is RT really that strong?
There are much more counters to RT than negative RT effects. In most annoying strategies like Gostmare, RT is actually a support spell. On the other hand, EQ has 2  cost, and kills up to 3 pillars. Silence - 2 , BH - 3 , Nightmare - 1  !! and all those cards have only 1 counter - Sanctuary. Which btw,  usually requires a PA as well, so you need 2 cards to counter 1 card and more than 1 quantum type. If 2  is enough for EQ, than 1  is more than enough for Rewind.  If we lower effects of RT, things like Chimera  lose their best counter in game.  I guess that every strategy needs a counter-strategy. Besides, main reason I hate to put Eternity in any rainbow is that it has high cost and cast cost already, so making it cost more would make it usable only for mono  decks and that way it would be underplayed.

This is the best post here. I also don't understand why a lot of Players want to nerf RT and they are quiet when we talk about QS, BH, Nightmare, Lighting etc.
RT is very powerful card, but ALL spells which destroy opponent field are very powerful. A lot of this cards laugh at Sanctuary, especially SoF (turned into BH) or Pests with Steal. Not RT is unbalanced, but game mechanism is unbalanced. When card which cost 1 can destroy Dragon for 12 quantum then someting goes wrong. We allowed to create duos like Discord+BH, QS+BH, Pests + QS etc and we didn't give mechanism to defend against it. Talking about ReverseTime should be a discuss about all game mechanism. Why we produce a lot of cards for 1-3 quantum which can be used on opponent? Touching opponent creatures, permaments, quantum should be difficult. For me CC should be from shields, weapons - not from spells which cost 1-3. Destroying pillars from Trident - it is ok. From QS = OP. Destroying permaments from Pulvy - it is ok. From Explosion, Steal = OP.

[Picheleiro]

I dont think Explosion, Lighting or Nightmare are OP or affect in a negative way the game. What´s the point of Counter-Something when it´s more expensive than the Things? Place the Counter-Things in a deck instead of the Things will be a UP or a really wild bet.

And again: We have very fast and strong rush and permanents out there. A upped frog deals 5 points of damage for 2 and a Lava golem or a Forest Spirit can become impossible to deal with if you dont kill them fast. Pulvy, the air bow and SoF can shut you down if you dont have tools to destroy them. The spells named -except EQ maybe, but I have some personal with it-. aren´t real problems. Kill one use spells will be a bad idea.

[OldTrees]

Talking about ReverseTime should be a discuss about all game mechanism. Why we produce a lot of cards for 1-3 quantum which can be used on opponent? Touching opponent creatures, permaments, quantum should be difficult. For me CC should be from shields, weapons - not from spells which cost 1-3. Destroying pillars from Trident - it is ok. From QS = OP. Destroying permaments from Pulvy - it is ok. From Explosion, Steal = OP.

Lava Golem is 1 card that can win a game given enough quanta.
Owl's Eye is slower, can deal with Lava Golem and can still win a game given enough quanta.
Lightning can deal with Lava Golem but cannot win a game.

Costs are based off value
Lava Golem: Value of LG win condition
Owl's Eye: Value of OE win condition + Value of Snipe CC
Lightning: Value of Lightning CC

In a 1v1 between 6 Lava Golems and 6 Lightnings, neither player would win but Lava Golem would be further towards victory (100hp vs 70hp). Hence the value of LG win condition is greater than the value of Lightning CC. Value is paid with a cost. Lava Golem must cost more than Lightning.

[Atico]

I don't understand this logic. Pawn in chess can't destroy Queen so easy. It is really bad that we allowed on this in Elements.
Your counting is wrong. When I destroy Golem or Dragon I gain +N HP, where N is attack destroyed creature. So when I destroy Dragon 10|5 then Lighting give me 10HP per turn. It is 2x more than SoG which cost 3 and it is easy to destroy/steal. It is incredibly unbalanced.
But... I don't believe that can be ever changed.

[Picheleiro]

I don't understand this logic. Pawn in chess can't destroy Queen so easy. It is really bad that we allowed on this in Elements.
Your counting is wrong. When I destroy Golem or Dragon I gain +N HP, where N is attack destroyed creature. So when I destroy Dragon 10|5 then Lighting give me 10HP per turn. It is 2x more than SoG which cost 3 and it is easy to destroy/steal. It is incredibly unbalanced.
But... I don't believe that can be ever changed.

[Atico]

^
Your post will make this game better...