Poll

How should Rage be nerfed?

It is perfect, no need to change anything.
30 (50%)
I think it should lose lethality and attack gain function is slightly changed (as suggested).
14 (23.3%)
Rage Potion and/or Rage Elixir should cost more.
10 (16.7%)
Other (please post a clear idea).
5 (8.3%)
If creature were to be killed, it lives with 0 HP until it attacks.
1 (1.7%)

Total Members Voted: 60

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Offline mega plini

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Re: Rage Potion | Rage Elixir https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39089.msg487823#msg487823
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2012, 03:54:53 pm »
The major complaint about Rage Potion is that Fire has a destructive theme and thus has the potential to have very removal heavy decks. People also complain about Aether's untouchable theme. These themes are what makes the elements differ. It is better to modify the impact Firestall has on the meta rather than lobotomize part of an element's theme.

I think this is true. Making countercards would be advisable. Maybe buffing heavy armor?
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Rage Potion | Rage Elixir https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39089.msg487878#msg487878
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2012, 05:40:15 pm »
The major complaint about Rage Potion is that Fire has a destructive theme and thus has the potential to have very removal heavy decks. People also complain about Aether's untouchable theme. These themes are what makes the elements differ. It is better to modify the impact Firestall has on the meta rather than lobotomize part of an element's theme.

I think this is true. Making countercards would be advisable. Maybe buffing heavy armor?
Heavy Armor is used with synergies. It could be buffed but carefully. A berf like 2 :earth|1 :earth for +6hp would be better.

The solution to heavy removal is to add more anti CC cards

Cards that negate CC (make it not able to affect the creature. Ex Quint)
Cards that mitigate CC (make it less efficient / require more cards. Ex Phoenix)
Cards that punish CC (have a negative effect when CC occurs. Ex Death Triggers)
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Offline OdinVanguard

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Re: Rage Potion | Rage Elixir https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39089.msg487982#msg487982
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2012, 09:28:02 pm »
Okay, I think this is deserved for a number of reasons.  It is powerful, versatile and decently cheap.  I feel this is a lot for a card.  Also this is often the most frustrating card in the dreaded Firestall, of which I feel will weaken a bit if this nerf is passed.  Here is what I propose:
Spoiler for Hidden:

It basically loses lethality, but it makes the creature as fragile, yet powerful, as you would see a typical Fire creature.  It still has potential in Firestall, as it can be synergized with Fire Shield | Fire Buckler for the final blow, but it requires an attack to work, making it a little risky.

Just in case wording is a little confusing, some examples:

Sapphire Charger (4|5) with normal effects of Rage Potion = 9|0 (killed)

Sapphire Charger (4|5) with suggested effects of Rage Potion = 8|1

Colossal Dragon (7|15) with normal effects of Rage Potion = 12|10

Colossal Dragon (7|15) with suggested effects of Rage Potion = 12|10 (same potential)

I do think that this card should have direct CC ability (i.e. be able to kill outright). However, I think a good way to differentiate it from other CC type cards would be to have the targeted creature not die until the end of its owner's next turn. I.e. the creature becomes reduced to the equivalent of a high power spark. It will have 0 hitpoints but will not die until it attacks, as would a spark.

I'm not sure Rage Potion was ever supposed to be used as much as CC as it is in its current form. 95% of its competitive use is a CC and not as a buff.

I had suggested this before:
Spoiler for Hidden:


The idea of reducing the creature to 0 hitpoints helps make this card truer to its original intent. You gain an enhanced attack for a creature, but at a cost. If the creature takes more than its hp worth of damage, it still gets one shot at using its extra damage potential. Conversely, if used as CC, it will still be as effective as lightning (or more) in terms of damage to target, but will require its user to weigh the cost to benifit before using... it becomes: is it worth taking a one time shot of extra damage in exchange for killing a potentially threatening creature.
If we retain the other suggestion from Malebolgia, and only allow the creature to gain power equal to life lost, this will prevent it from being abused on, say, photons.

Finally, since the targeted creature will not die till end of turn, this will open up other avenues for use that were not present before, such as being able to buff any creature by comboing with heal cards. Again, by limiting attack bonus to hitpoints lost, the potential for abuse should be mitigated to a good extent.

This change will make the card more valuable overall, but also prevent it from being "just another fire CC card"

Those are my thoughts on the issue.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 03:20:25 am by OdinVanguard »
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Re: Rage Potion | Rage Elixir https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39089.msg488039#msg488039
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2012, 10:49:58 pm »
What I think might be one way of "fixing" it is by not having the creature die right away if they are targeted by Rage Potion [Elixer].  Instead, make them Spark-like, where they die after they attack.

Offline OdinVanguard

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Re: Rage Potion | Rage Elixir https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39089.msg488144#msg488144
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2012, 01:24:37 am »
Lol... I just said that... great minds think alike eh?
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Offline Drake_XIV

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Re: Rage Potion | Rage Elixir https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39089.msg488145#msg488145
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2012, 01:25:19 am »
Sorry, I've been brain dead for a good portion of this day.  I've been mentally blocking out walls of texts...

Offline ARTHANASIOS

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Re: Rage Potion | Rage Elixir https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39089.msg488379#msg488379
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2012, 12:35:12 pm »
If you want my humble (but not always correct) opinion, Rage Potion/Elixir is okay as it is. Mono- :fire decks have way too weak creatures (in terms of health) in order to use it as a buff. Colossal Dragons were always viewed as the worst dragon of the game, so buffing it with Rage Potion/Elixir gives it a purpose as a strong card. About the low cost of 3 :fire, let's look into other cards too. 3 :life or 2 :life for a Heal / Improved Heal which restores 20 hp right away, 4 :darkness or 3 :darkness for a Steal / Improved Steal which NOT just destoys a permanet but it uses it against its former owner, etc. If we use that point of view, we may end up in nerfing a lot of other cards too.
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Offline Fayceless

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Re: Rage Potion | Rage Elixir https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39089.msg488587#msg488587
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2012, 10:26:30 pm »
If you want my humble (but not always correct) opinion, Rage Potion/Elixir is okay as it is. Mono- :fire decks have way too weak creatures (in terms of health) in order to use it as a buff. Colossal Dragons were always viewed as the worst dragon of the game, so buffing it with Rage Potion/Elixir gives it a purpose as a strong card. About the low cost of 3 :fire, let's look into other cards too. 3 :life or 2 :life for a Heal / Improved Heal which restores 20 hp right away, 4 :darkness or 3 :darkness for a Steal / Improved Steal which NOT just destoys a permanet but it uses it against its former owner, etc. If we use that point of view, we may end up in nerfing a lot of other cards too.

Yeah, it's fine as a buff card, but that's not what's at issue here.  It's the (almost exclusive) use as a creature-killer that people have a problem with.  The change proposed in the OP is one I would support. (subtract HP, add attack, never go below 1 HP) The "make it like a spark" proposal sounds okay too.  Fire already has 2 other ways to kill low-hp creatures, let its buff card be used as a buff card.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Rage Potion | Rage Elixir https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39089.msg488793#msg488793
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2012, 05:16:55 am »
Yeah, it's fine as a buff card, but that's not what's at issue here.  It's the (almost exclusive) use as a creature-killer that people have a problem with.
It is not used almost exclusively as CC.
It is used as a buff in  :fire :light and  :fire :darkness.
It is used as CC in mono :fire.

It is people lashing out against the quantity of CC in mono :fire. I do not see any good reasons for this lashing out. Do you have any?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 07:16:35 am by OldTrees »
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Re: Rage Potion | Rage Elixir https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39089.msg488812#msg488812
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2012, 06:26:09 am »
It is people lashing out against the quantity of CC in mono :fire. I do not see and good reasons for this lashing out. Do you have any?
This.

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Re: Rage Potion | Rage Elixir https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39089.msg488828#msg488828
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2012, 06:59:42 am »
It is people lashing out against the quantity of CC in mono :fire. I do not see and good reasons for this lashing out. Do you have any?
This.

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Re: Rage Potion | Rage Elixir https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39089.msg488893#msg488893
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2012, 09:30:19 am »
If you want my humble (but not always correct) opinion, Rage Potion/Elixir is okay as it is. Mono- :fire decks have way too weak creatures (in terms of health) in order to use it as a buff. Colossal Dragons were always viewed as the worst dragon of the game, so buffing it with Rage Potion/Elixir gives it a purpose as a strong card. About the low cost of 3 :fire, let's look into other cards too. 3 :life or 2 :life for a Heal / Improved Heal which restores 20 hp right away, 4 :darkness or 3 :darkness for a Steal / Improved Steal which NOT just destoys a permanet but it uses it against its former owner, etc. If we use that point of view, we may end up in nerfing a lot of other cards too.

Yeah, it's fine as a buff card, but that's not what's at issue here.  It's the (almost exclusive) use as a creature-killer that people have a problem with.  The change proposed in the OP is one I would support. (subtract HP, add attack, never go below 1 HP) The "make it like a spark" proposal sounds okay too.  Fire already has 2 other ways to kill low-hp creatures, let its buff card be used as a buff card.

Wouldn't the "subtract HP, add attack, never go below 1 HP" change make it a superior buffing card in mono-fire? I mean, a Rage Potion/Elixir would turn a Seraph into a 15/1 or 16/1 creature without killing it, a Crimson Dragon into a 17/1 or 18/1 creature without killing it etc. Wouldn't this make  :fire even more powerful as a mono (especially in unupped PvP1)?
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