[Official] Immolation | Cremation

[OldTrees]

Isn't the mulligan screw-up annoying enough to balance Immo's quickfire mechanic?

Huh?

The automulligan checks the first hand to see if there are any 0 cost cards. If there are not then it mulligans the hand once.

Certain cards have 0 casting costs that people do not want on turn 1 (Holy Flash)
Certain cards have 0 casting costs that people need on turn 1 (Pillars / Immolation)

[Pwnator]

Certain cards have 0 casting costs that people need on turn 1 (Pillars / Immolation)

And since you pretty much have the same amount of Immos and costless creatures, half of the time I have no creatures to immolate at all.

[OldTrees]

Certain cards have 0 casting costs that people need on turn 1 (Pillars / Immolation)

And since you pretty much have the same amount of Immos and costless creatures, half of the time I have no creatures to immolate at all.

You are drastically overestimating. Assuming you start with 3 0 cost cards (12/30), you would only observe that less than 1/8th of the time.

[Pwnator]

Just played Sev's cremarush for 10 games and I got a crap starting hand 8 times out of 20 games. RNG sure loves me :/
RNG did render my opponents' Fog Shields worthless, though. lolwut

[omegareaper7]

If this is nerfed, it loses next to all purpose.  Fine as is now, especially with inability to play first turn phoenixes without two.

[davogotland]

2) Immolation uses 2 cards to generate a finite amount of quanta. The quantity cannot be below the value of 2 cards.
(Nova + Fire Pillar | Fire Tower vs Photon + Immolation | Cremation)

let's see. immolation on a free card gets the same quanta that 1 nova + 1 burning pillar generates over 5 turns. only the player gets it instantly. i've won matches with immolation rush decks in 5 turns (thanks to the turn 1 golem).

this is why they can't really be compared like that. again, it's the timing i'm after. losing a creature is a drawback of immolation, but i'm not sure it's big enough. either a quanta amount hit to have a drawback vs 1 nova + 1 pillar, or a timing hit. after this discussion, and mainly the argument that

1) Immolation decks only get 6x a finite amount of quanta. An aggro win condition needs to be playable within that limit.

it's fairly obvious why an amount hit is out of the question. this made me think new thoughts ^^ check it out (now this is mostly for fun, i wanna share the thoughts that came into my brain, which is the main idea with a forum after all):

Spoiler for immolation 1:

i immolate a creature. i instantly gain 1 of each quantum. the creature i immolated is on fire, and has health and attack at 0 (it's dead, death effect are triggered at this moment), and is immaterial. it also generates 1 fire quanta at the end of every turn. it lasts for 5 turns. which creature is immolated has no impact on the outcome here. constant quanta is guaranteed.

Spoiler for immolation 2:

i immolate a creature. i instantly gain 1 of each quantum, plus the creature is set on fire, meaning it loses one health point each turn, and also generates 1 fire, until it dies. immolating stronger creatures means more quanta. the creature can be buffed while on fire, prolonging the quanta generation. the creature is still active (hits, can use skills) while burning.

Spoiler for immolation 3:

i immolate a creature. i instantly gain 1 of each quantum, plus the creature gains 4hp, has its attack set to 0, has its status changed to "set on fire" meaning it loses one hp each turn plus generates 1 fire at the end of every turn, until it dies. makes immolation effective against antimatter, can give a creature with a bad status a final purpose. can be buffed while burning.

Spoiler for crematory:

replace immolation card with crematory, a permanent card. once each turn, either for one fire or free of cost (upgraded version?), it can target a creature which will be sent to the crematory (removed from field, death effects are triggered here). each creature sent to the crematory means 1 instant quanta of each type. the creature then keeps burning for 5 turns, generating 1 additional fire at the end of each turn. a number on the crematory indicates how many creatures are currently burning in it. the crematory is immaterial when played. constant quanta guaranteed.

some of the ways to keep the quanta generation balanced, while not allowing the rush. although, it's extremely hard to picture the impacts a card change like this would have on the game. feels like i'm just rambling now.. but it's fun! hope someone will comment on the weird ideas haha :)

[bogtro]

All of those suggestions nerf Immolation to the point of complete disuse. 

[omegareaper7]

All of those suggestions nerf Immolation to the point of complete disuse.

This^
Immo rushes already trade just about everything they can for speed, no reason to take the speed part away and kill them all together.

[davogotland]

thank you all for your thoughts and replies. especially those of you who used a fun, upbringing and constructive tone in your posts.

this was my first created thread in this forum (aside from the welcome board), and i've already learned alot! the term rng was new to me, even though i've taken some courses in game programming. well, those courses were in swedish after all, so i just didn't recognize the english abbreviation haha. but still! and the mulligan was also news to me.

now i'm gonna go kick some ass in pvp1 with my new fire immolation deck ;)

[OldTrees]

2) Immolation uses 2 cards to generate a finite amount of quanta. The quantity cannot be below the value of 2 cards.
(Nova + Fire Pillar | Fire Tower vs Photon + Immolation | Cremation)

let's see. immolation on a free card gets the same quanta that 1 nova + 1 burning pillar generates over 5 turns. only the player gets it instantly. i've won matches with immolation rush decks in 5 turns (thanks to the turn 1 golem).

this is why they can't really be compared like that. again, it's the timing i'm after. losing a creature is a drawback of immolation, but i'm not sure it's big enough. either a quanta amount hit to have a drawback vs 1 nova + 1 pillar, or a timing hit. after this discussion, and mainly the argument that

This is precisely why they can be compared. The rate of equalization between the short term and long term strategies is what the current Immolation is attempting to use as a balancing factor. Currently quanta production equalizes at the 5th turn. However the pillar only had the quanta available for about half that time. If we multiply each quanta by how long it has been around the estimate for the rate of equalization lowers. The new estimate has equalization at the 9th turn.

PS: The role of Cremation is the instant speed Fire quanta. Your alternatives are alternate novas not alternate immolations.

Fire from immolation	Crude turn of equalization	Accurate turn of equalization
6	5	9
7	6	10
5	4	7
4	3	5
3	2	3

@Everyone
Perhaps you could join in this quantitative discussion.

[furballdn]

Your idea of gaining 1 per turn is not good at all. Why would you use immolate+creature when you get better results from nova+fire tower?

[davogotland]

Currently quanta production equalizes at the 5th turn. However the pillar only had the quanta available for about half that time. If we multiply each quanta by how long it has been around the estimate for the rate of equalization lowers. The new estimate has equalization at the 9th turn.

wait, how does that work? multiplying by the number of turns quanta has been around equals the sum of k from 1 to n. proof: one pillar has after 4 turns generated 4 quanta. out of those, one has been around for 4 turns, one for 3 turns, one for 2 turns, and one for 1 turn. 1x4=4, 1x3=3, 1x2=2, 1x1=1. 4+3+2+1=10. the sum of k as it goes from 1 to 4 is 10.

so i get that 6 instant quanta levels out at 9 turns, since 6x9=54, and the sum of k as it goes from 1 to 9 is 55. but how can 4 instant quanta level out at 5 turns? 4x5=20, sum of k as it goes from 1 to 5 is only 15. at 7 turns however, 4x7=28, and the sum of k as i goes from 1 to 7 is 28.

did i miss understand the instructions, or did i fail to see the pattern?