Poll

what, if anything, should be done to immolation?

lower amount of fire quanta produced to 4
leave it as it is

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Offline davogotlandTopic starter

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Re: Immolation https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39899.msg495981#msg495981
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2012, 03:34:01 am »
Your idea of gaining 1 :fire per turn is not good at all. Why would you use immolate+creature when you get better results from nova+fire tower?

makes immolation effective against antimatter, can give a creature with a bad status a final purpose.
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Offline furballdn

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Re: Immolation https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39899.msg495985#msg495985
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2012, 03:38:32 am »
Your idea of gaining 1 :fire per turn is not good at all. Why would you use immolate+creature when you get better results from nova+fire tower?

makes immolation effective against antimatter, can give a creature with a bad status a final purpose.
So its only purpose is to be a worse version of a fire tower and a situational counter to antimatter?

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Immolation https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39899.msg496069#msg496069
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2012, 05:01:54 am »
Currently quanta production equalizes at the 5th turn. However the pillar only had the quanta available for about half that time. If we multiply each quanta by how long it has been around the estimate for the rate of equalization lowers. The new estimate has equalization at the 9th turn.

wait, how does that work? multiplying by the number of turns quanta has been around equals the sum of k from 1 to n. proof: one pillar has after 4 turns generated 4 quanta. out of those, one has been around for 4 turns, one for 3 turns, one for 2 turns, and one for 1 turn. 1x4=4, 1x3=3, 1x2=2, 1x1=1. 4+3+2+1=10. the sum of k as it goes from 1 to 4 is 10.

so i get that 6 instant quanta levels out at 9 turns, since 6x9=54, and the sum of k as it goes from 1 to 9 is 55. but how can 4 instant quanta level out at 5 turns? 4x5=20, sum of k as it goes from 1 to 5 is only 15. at 7 turns however, 4x7=28, and the sum of k as i goes from 1 to 7 is 28.

did i miss understand the instructions, or did i fail to see the pattern?
Sum of k from 1-9 is 45 (1-10 is 55).

Producing 4 :fire means 3 :fire + 1 nova. 3x5 = 15 = Sum k from 1-5.
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Offline davogotlandTopic starter

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Re: Immolation https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39899.msg496227#msg496227
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2012, 03:01:17 pm »
Sum of k from 1-9 is 45 (1-10 is 55).

right, awkward D:

9 turns is pretty high though, right?

what happens when we compare nova (1 card) to a quantum pillar  (1 card)?

12 instant quanta, vs 3 quanta per turn. that's 4 turns with the pillar to generate the same amount. so that would be the crude equalization turn. but with the formula, turn 4 would be nova 12x4=48, and the pillar would be 12 quanta for 1 turn, 9 quanta for 2 turns, 6 quanta for 3 turns, 3 quanta for 4 turns => 12x1 + 9x2 + 6x3 + 3x4=12+18+18+12=60.

nova after 3 turns, 12x3=36. pillar after 3 turns has 9x1 + 6x2 + 3x3=9+12+9=30. close enough? equalizes at 3 turns?
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Offline Tirear

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Re: Immolation https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39899.msg496236#msg496236
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2012, 03:49:29 pm »
Sum of k from 1-9 is 45 (1-10 is 55).

right, awkward D:

9 turns is pretty high though, right?

what happens when we compare nova (1 card) to a quantum pillar  (1 card)?

12 instant quanta, vs 3 quanta per turn. that's 4 turns with the pillar to generate the same amount. so that would be the crude equalization turn. but with the formula, turn 4 would be nova 12x4=48, and the pillar would be 12 quanta for 1 turn, 9 quanta for 2 turns, 6 quanta for 3 turns, 3 quanta for 4 turns => 12x1 + 9x2 + 6x3 + 3x4=12+18+18+12=60.

nova after 3 turns, 12x3=36. pillar after 3 turns has 9x1 + 6x2 + 3x3=9+12+9=30. close enough? equalizes at 3 turns?

You are counting the quanta from the pillar extra times. Let's look at the three turn example. 3x3 is refering to the 3 quanta produced on the first turn, which is there on each of the first three turns. Then you have 6x2. Where is the 6 coming from? It is the three on the second turn + the three on the first turn. But, you already counted the three from the first turn as being around on all three turns. If you did want to use this method of counting, than nova should be 12x3 + 12x2 + 12x1 = 72, much more than the quanta pillar has.

Going back to the method used in the immo comparisons, the pillar would be producing three times as much as a burning pillar would. Since the original formula is just a summation, this will result in three times the end result. Sine we are dealing with an equality or inequality, we can dived both sides by three. Thus, comparing nova to a QP is the same as comparing an immo that produces 4 quanta + 1 each (5 fire total) to 1 nova + 1 burning tower. According to OldTree's chart, the equalization is at turn 7.
12x7 ? 3 + 6 + 9 + 12 + 15 + 18 + 21
84 ? 84
84 = 84
This checks out. So the nova is as effective by these standards as an immo that produces 5 fire quanta, and the current immo produces 6. This tells us that the current immo is slightly more powerful than nova. Considering that a hand with immo as the only 0 cost can not play anything, as you have no creatures to sacrifice yet, you may have to discard on the first turn, while with a starting nova you can at least play the nova, I think that this is fair.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Immolation https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39899.msg496317#msg496317
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2012, 05:33:37 pm »
Thanks for joining in Tirear.

Yes 12 * 7 = 84 = 3 * 28 = 3 * Sum 1-7

I am not sure of 2 premises
1) A 7 turn equalization is balanced
2) The risk of discard is a high enough cost to give Immolation +2 turns of equalization


Could this method be adapted to judge Supernova?


Is +2 :fire an appropriate upgrade to mirror the pillar -> tower upgrade? (+1 for the Immolation upgrade +1 for the Fodder upgrade)
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Offline AquaticImpalement

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Re: Immolation https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39899.msg497512#msg497512
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2012, 05:30:44 am »
I think, uhm, if nobody has said this already (they probably have but meh) that if you make it so that Immolation can only effect creatures of between 3 and 7 HP, and also fire creatures, this may or may not solve some problems possibly maybe probably not.

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Re: Immolation https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39899.msg497515#msg497515
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2012, 05:35:15 am »
I think, uhm, if nobody has said this already (they probably have but meh) that if you make it so that Immolation can only effect creatures of between 3 and 7 HP, and also fire creatures, this may or may not solve some problems possibly maybe probably not.

Just sitting here in the back ignore me if you so wish.
This would delay Immolation by 1 turn and make it cost a minimum of 1 :fire. That is a heavy nerf.

Currently only a -1 :fire or possibly a -2 :fire production nerf is being considered. I think the math confirms a -2 production nerf is not warranted.

In conclusion, your suggestion is too harsh.
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Offline Wizy

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Re: Immolation https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39899.msg497583#msg497583
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2012, 09:07:16 am »
This is the way I have always calculated immolation im my mind:
12 :rainbow + 6 :fire, each extra quantum of a specific element is equivalent to 3 :rainbow, = 30 :rainbow = 2.5 novas
since now it gives 6 :fire, I would say:
12 :rainbow + 5 :fire = 27 :rainbow = 2.25 novas

But thats probably not the right way.
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Re: Immolation https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39899.msg497754#msg497754
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2012, 07:04:44 pm »
This is the way I have always calculated immolation im my mind:
12 :rainbow + 6 :fire, each extra quantum of a specific element is equivalent to 3 :rainbow, = 30 :rainbow = 2.5 novas
since now it gives 6 :fire, I would say:
12 :rainbow + 5 :fire = 27 :rainbow = 2.25 novas

But thats probably not the right way.
3 :rainbow might equal 1 :fire however 300 :rainbow are > 100 :fire.
I use
1.5 * (# :fire + 1) =#  :rainbow

Also Nova is not equal to 12 :rainbow. It is greater.
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Re: Immolation https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39899.msg1003326#msg1003326
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2012, 01:29:34 am »
I don't know if it has been mentioned, but nerfing Immolation/Cremation so that there is a chance of it exploding along with giving you quanta so you take like 10 damage. Maybe 25% or something.
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Offline furballdn

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Re: Immolation https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39899.msg1003332#msg1003332
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2012, 01:56:50 am »
I don't know if it has been mentioned, but nerfing Immolation/Cremation so that there is a chance of it exploding along with giving you quanta so you take like 10 damage. Maybe 25% or something.
Wait, what? This needs a nerf again? Also, making randomly explode doesn't seem like fire's thing. Fire is all about sure fire glass cannons, so you could make it deal DEFINITE damage, but occasionally exploding feels like :entropy.

 

blarg: