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Elements the Game => Game Suggestions and Feedback => Nerf This Card! => Topic started by: thatnewguy on October 17, 2010, 03:08:55 pm

Title: [Official] Horned Frog | Giant Frog
Post by: thatnewguy on October 17, 2010, 03:08:55 pm

I believe this is a bit op. The unugraded is understandable, but the upgrade to gaint frog with + 2 attack and no cost change is just absurd. Most cards that have an attack of 5 without a skill cost 4 at least. Just a 2 cost creature with an attack of 5 and 3 hp making is making the absolute perfect low-cost fractal target. Just my thoughts.
(http://imageplay.net/m7Gbd97027/Untitled_thumb.jpg) (http://imageplay.net/view/m7Gbd97027/Untitled)

Title: Re: Horned frog/ Gaint frog
Post by: Glitch on October 17, 2010, 03:20:12 pm

No.

'Nuff said.

Title: Re: Horned frog/ Gaint frog
Post by: Mastermind79 on October 17, 2010, 03:26:03 pm

Quote from: Gl1tch on October 17, 2010, 03:20:12 pm

No.

'Nuff said.

This.
Also, Gaint-->Giant

Is there anything wrong with having one card that is slightly better than other cards?

Title: Re: Horned frog/ Gaint frog
Post by: killsdazombies on October 17, 2010, 03:28:08 pm

worst. nerf attempt. ever.

Title: Re: Horned frog/ Gaint frog
Post by: thatnewguy on October 17, 2010, 03:30:40 pm

Please delete this then

Title: Re: Horned frog/ Gaint frog
Post by: Kurohami on October 17, 2010, 03:32:21 pm

Well, you said it's great with fractal, but that's pretty much what it's used for. If you nerf it, it won't ever see day light again. As for its damage to cost ratio being the best in game, that's also its whole point. Life lacks many important aspects, and it could only be made up by pure speed. +2 attack and no cost change is by no means absurd since it has no ability and low hp. Saying a creature with an attack of 5 without a skill cost 4 at least is completely ridiculous. Abyss crawler costs 4 but has 6 attack, phase recluse costs 4 but has 7 damage plus an ability, flesh recluse has 6 attack and only cost 3, plus it has an ability. Elite Graboid costs 4 including evolve and has 10 damage. This card is by no means overpowered what's so ever and I would even suggest to raise the attack of the unupped version by 1 since its pretty lame unless combined with adrenaline. Even then, its only 6 cost to 12 damage and very vulnerable to shields and poison and other types of CC. You are trying to destroy one of the only things life's good at. And really, unless all creatures are made exactly the same, there will always be the best creature for any quality no matter how much you nerf. Do you want all the creatures in elements to be exactly the same? If not then just accept the fact that giant frog IS currently the best damage to cost creature in the game and get over it. It is the best, but it's not better than other creatures by far, only a tiny bit. If anything graboid and abyss crawler should be nerfed before this, graboid can burrow to avoid CC and has more damage on 1 card, creating a card advantage, upgraded one can also withstand a firestorm and a few other CC. Abyss crawler not only has a good damage to cost ratio but is also twice as durable as giant frog. I don't honestly think they are overpowered either (graboid might be just a slight bit), but if you are going to nerf frog, nerf those first. Lastly, a fractal frog deck is way too easy to counter, a plague, a fire storm, 3 thunderstorm, flood, otyugh, fire shield, spine carapace, hope with 5 defence, any good damage reduction shield, retrovirus all wipes out the frogs quite efficiently so I don't know what you are complaining about. Just because you hate 1 deck doesn't mean the card in it should be nerfed, and really, RoL is much more powerful with fractal than frogs, why would you pick on the frog before RoL? And theoretically RoL's damage to cost ratio is infinite, even higher than the frog (though I know it really doesn't matter).

Title: Re: Horned frog/ Gaint frog
Post by: thatnewguy on October 17, 2010, 03:34:58 pm

Thank you for telling me why it shouldn't be nerfed i don't hate life or the card. Just wondered why it was so low as a 2 cost, i appreciate you clearing this up for me.

Title: Re: Horned frog/ Gaint frog
Post by: EvaRia on October 17, 2010, 04:59:49 pm

Besides people, it doesn't have the best quanta:damage ratio in the game.
Look at photon.

Title: Re: Horned frog/ Gaint frog
Post by: GG on October 17, 2010, 05:16:09 pm

Quote from: EvaRia on October 17, 2010, 04:59:49 pm

Besides people, it doesn't have the best quanta:damage ratio in the game.
Look at photon.

Or even... spark. infinity x 3 = ?

Title: Re: Horned frog/ Gaint frog
Post by: Kurohami on October 17, 2010, 05:19:20 pm

spark doesn't count because it only attacks 1 turn as opposed to the other creatures attacking potentially unlimited turns. Of course, you can buff the spark to make it survive for more than 1 turn, but then you would be using quanta, and the damage to cost ratio would no longer be infinite. I went into debate about this subject a while back, and we went through this already. :P

Title: Re: Horned frog/ Gaint frog
Post by: Celidion on October 25, 2010, 10:36:46 pm

Pfft, it's easy to make spark cheap and effective.

Code: [Select]

6u2 6u2 6u2 6u2 6u2 6u2 808 808 808 808 808 808 808 808 808 808 809 809 809 809 809 809 80b 80b 80b 80b 80b 80b 80i 80i

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14504.msg196436#msg196436

Title: Re: Horned frog/ Gaint frog
Post by: Kurohami on October 25, 2010, 10:38:10 pm

Still, it's a two card combo. But yes, a 10/5 spark for 1 entropy quanta is epic.

Title: Re: Horned frog/ Gaint frog
Post by: kurathedog on October 25, 2010, 11:24:48 pm

+2 attack to a no ability creature for 0 extra cost?

Flesh spider: +3 attack to a creature with ability for 0 extra cost.

You were saying?

I'm not raging, life rushes annoy me, but it makes sense that life has great small creatures that swarm.

Title: Re: Horned frog/ Gaint frog
Post by: skyreal on January 20, 2011, 11:18:39 am

Giant frog should be 4/4 in my opinion.

Title: Re: Horned frog/ Gaint frog
Post by: omegareaper7 on January 20, 2011, 02:54:41 pm

if giant frog was 4/4, it would just be a cheaper, cockatrice, leave the card alone, good as is.

Title: Re: Horned frog/ Gaint frog
Post by: LongDono on January 20, 2011, 06:03:52 pm

I am not saying nerf it or anything but it's attack is 2.5 times bigger than it's cost..... Just saying...
Photon is the real bully here, just 0 cost for 1 attack? It is soooo much better. jk

Title: Re: Horned frog/ Gaint frog
Post by: thatnewguy on January 20, 2011, 06:10:26 pm

How about we let threads over 3 months old die? Mmmmmmmmmmmmk?

Title: Re: Horned frog/ Gaint frog
Post by: Izzythemachine on January 20, 2011, 06:41:20 pm

Must keep thread going... lol

What about Giant frog/Mitosis combo??? That would be insane. Epic synergy with bonds and huge swarming potential.

Title: Re: Horned frog/ Gaint frog
Post by: willng3 on January 20, 2011, 09:00:34 pm

That combination is far more lethal with other :life cards really. If you're just going to use it in a Mono :life rush then using Epinephrine would actually provide nearly the same results; plus the Frog's 3HP doesn't make it a very reliable target...

Leave the Frog alone. :life isn't some element which can effectively control everything the opponent does, so a creature like this isn't an unfair addition. If :life ever gets an aggressive form of CC (which contradicts what it stands for), then you can claim it needs a nerf.

Quote from: thenewguy on January 20, 2011, 06:10:26 pm

How about we let threads over 3 months old die? Mmmmmmmmmmmmk?

Title: [Official] Horned Frog | Giant Frog
Post by: Absol on January 04, 2013, 02:41:55 pm

After a discussion with RR regarding Crawler being UP in regards to the new Merc buff, we came to a conclusion that Frog is used as the baseline for balancing similar creatures, yet it's OP in itself. Comparing it to Blue Crawler and Flesh Spider, for example (and even Firefly).

So, the suggestion for the nerf is to make it costs 3 :life in both versions. As with Cocks, its cost raised to 4 :life in both versions, but that's in another thread.

Discuss.

Title: Re: Horned Frog | Giant Frog
Post by: ARTHANASIOS on January 04, 2013, 02:49:14 pm

Flesh Recluse, Phase Recluse, Elite Charger; all these creatures are as good as Giant Frog in comparison with thier unupped versions.
EDIT: Acutally, they are even more broken in comparison with Giant Frog!

Title: Re: Horned Frog | Giant Frog
Post by: RavingRabbid on January 04, 2013, 03:01:10 pm

Horned Frog 2 -> 3|3
Cockatrice 3 -> 4|4

Title: Re: Horned Frog | Giant Frog
Post by: ARTHANASIOS on January 04, 2013, 05:16:36 pm

:life has creature cost advantage as it basic ability. After all, let's face it, :life is based on the Green coulor of MTG; cheap creatures but not impressive spells or permanents.
Btw, take a look in upped versions of some of these cards (eg. Recluses). ;)

Title: Re: Horned Frog | Giant Frog
Post by: Marsu on January 04, 2013, 05:22:56 pm

Are you kidding me? Life is one of the most UP elements atm anyway. Besides:
Creatures aren't meant to be balanced. Elements are supposed to be.
Wishing for a nerf for horned frog because Abyss crawler costs 3 :water is like saying deflag should be removed from this game because Life doesn't have it either.
It really surprises me that the very simple - yet clever - concept of each element having its own weaknesses & strenghts has to be explained.

Title: Re: Horned Frog | Giant Frog
Post by: willng3 on January 04, 2013, 05:23:48 pm

I quite frankly don't care what other elements have to work with in comparison to either of the Frogs. Have you seen a single deck with either of these that you would consider OP? I sure haven't. You want to fix something, then start with the other cards if they even deserve it; the Frogs clearly aren't the problem here.

Title: Re: Horned Frog | Giant Frog
Post by: choongmyoung on January 04, 2013, 05:24:20 pm

Crawler is UP.
Frogs are not OP nor UP.

Title: Re: Horned Frog | Giant Frog
Post by: Absol on January 04, 2013, 05:36:39 pm

[20:49] <+Absol> RR
[20:51] <+RR> Wat?
[20:51] <+Absol> Many people say that Blue|Abyss Crawler is UP. What do you feel regarding Gravy Merc buff in relation to Crawler?
[20:53] <@Jenkar> Oh, that's a question to seagull.
[20:53] <+Absol> yes
[20:53] * Jenkar gobbles RR
[20:53] <+Absol> if you want to answer, just do it
[20:54] <@Jenkar> Just wanted to point out that imo abyss isn't up. Just blue is.
[20:55] <@Jenkar> the only half decent thing i've seen with blues is that weird adrenarush thingie RR built in budokan.
[20:55] <+Absol> why is Abyss not UP (compared to Basalt and Phase Recluse)?
[20:56] <+Absol> and how should Blue be buffed? Extra attack or cost decrease?
[20:56] <+Absol> or skill?
[20:56] <+RR> Abyss is quite fine, IMHO. 6 HP is a horribly good bulk.
[20:56] <@Jenkar> I'll leave the rest to capt'n RR.
[20:57] <+Absol> well then RR
[20:57] <+RR> However, the new mercenary buff leaves blue crawler weeping.
[20:57] <+RR> Because there isn't a single card comparable to blue crawler that is less powerful in any way.
[20:57] <+RR> Blue Crawler is now the bottom of the food chain. Absolute.
[20:57] <+Absol> so, blue is indeed UP
[20:58] <+Absol> how should it be buffed?
[20:58] <+RR> By nerfing frog, merc, cockatrice.
[20:58] <+RR> :V
[20:59] <+Absol> how about the other attacker? Spider (flesh and phase) and what else?
[20:59] <+RR> Flesh Spider is pretty similar. It just has web, but that's kinda meh.
[20:59] <+Absol> why can't Blue be buffed by buffing it instead of by nerfing comparable attackers?
[21:00] <+RR> Phase Recluse can live with 1 more attack and 1 more defense, and web is kinda meh.
[21:00] <+Absol> is there an elemental bonus of some sort which justifies its UPness?
[21:00] <+RR> Frog and Cock anyway set the standards higher.
[21:01] <+RR> CIA theory sucks :v
[21:01] <+Absol> but most cards are balanced according to that theory
[21:01] <+RR> I don't believe in elemental bonuses and card cost theory.
[21:02] <+Absol> if Blue cost were reduced to 2, would it feel like a "waterclone frog"?
[21:02] == RR [~IRIS@elementscommunity.org] has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
[21:02] == RR [~IRIS@elementscommunity.org] has joined #elementsthegame
[21:02] == mode/#elementsthegame [+v RR] by ChanServ
[21:03] <+Absol> RR, i thought you ragequit
[21:03] <+Absol> if Blue cost were reduced to 2, would it feel like a "waterclone frog"?
[21:03] <+RR> Eugh.
[21:03] <+RR> Pretty cool, but it would start to feel a bit OP.
[21:04] <+Absol> how so? Isn't frog balanced?
[21:04] <+RR> I have some issues with frog.
[21:05] <+RR> Maybe it's the Cocka/Adren support, but Frog is the best rusher.
[21:05] <+Absol> is it about life having almost same range attacker?
[21:05] <+Absol> (frog/cock)
[21:05] <+RR> Cheap and pretty offensive.
[21:06] <+Absol> offensive as in "packs a punch" or "making you angry"?
[21:06] <+RR> Cockatrice has been regarded as UP just because of Frog's existane.
[21:06] <+RR> *existance.
[21:06] <+RR> Offensive as quite a nice and fast punch for their cost.
[21:06] <+Absol> extra 1 attack worths it
[21:06] <+Absol> but it does feel redundant
[21:07] <+Absol> the problem is with frog in balancing Blue?
[21:07] <+RR> IMHO, yes.
[21:07] <+RR> It's also the problem in balancing merc, and cockatrice.
[21:07] <+RR> And the spiders.
[21:07] <+Absol> frog is the standard benchmark
[21:07] <+RR> Exactly.
[21:07] <+RR> But frog is the OP one.
[21:07] <+RR> Compared to the rest.
[21:08] <+Absol> how so?
[21:08] <+Absol> its cheaper cost?
[21:08] <+RR> 2 :lf for 3|3
[21:08] <+Absol> if Frog were to be nerfed, will Blue be balanced?
[21:08] <+RR> Maybe.
[21:08] <+Absol> how will you nerf Frog in relation to Blue's balance?
[21:08] <+RR> When do I get the job?
[21:08] <+Absol> theoretically
[21:09] <+RR> Make frog 3 :lf, Make cocka 4 :lf
[21:09] <+Absol> isn't that making them UP?
[21:09] <+RR> It puts cocka in line with Abom, too.
[21:09] <+Absol> oh
[21:09] <+RR> It's not making them UP, it's changing the reference.
[21:09] <+Absol> then how will the rest do compared to Frog after that nerf?
[21:10] <+RR> Better.
[21:10] <+Absol> better in the balancing gap or better as in global buffed?
[21:10] <+RR> Better as gap.
[21:10] <+Absol> which means, the rest won't have to be buffed individually?
[21:11] <+RR> Exactly.
[21:11] <+Absol> how about the Merc buff in regards to Frog potential nerf?
[21:12] <+RR> That is just getting to frog as reference again.
[21:12] <+Absol> which means a nerf post-buff?
[21:12] <+RR> Yes.
[21:12] <+RR> Or at least, undo the buff.
[21:13] <+Absol> the rest of the attackers are already balanced with Frog cost increased?
[21:13] <+RR> Well...
[21:14] <+Absol> well?
[21:15] <+RR> Abomination - Flesh Spider - Mummy - Merc - Sapph Charger (?) - Antlion - Hematite Golem - Frog - Cock - Crawler - (Firefly ?) - Scarab - Minor Vampire - Phase Spider - Psion.
[21:15] <+RR> I'm doubtful on whether or not Sapph Charger and Firefly fit in this list.
[21:16] <+Absol> Charger might fit, but firefly might not. Use Wyrm instead.
[21:16] <+RR> Wyrm doesn't seem to fit.
[21:16] <+Absol> on the second thought, Firefly counts. Why does Scarab count?
[21:16] <+RR> Scarab as standalone is 2 :t 2|x
[21:17] <+RR> Which, still as standalone, can be considered close to 2|2 / 2|3.
[21:17] <+Absol> hmm
[21:17] <+Absol> Lycan?
[21:17] <+RR> All these creatures have a 1:1 attack and defense to cost ratio, or close to it.
[21:17] <+RR> I feel like Lycan is too different to fit.
[21:18] <+RR> It would be 4 cost dual for 6|6
[21:18] <+Absol> oh
[21:18] <+Absol> what's the real criteria with Frog and the rest?
[21:18] <+Absol> how big of an attack?
[21:19] <+RR> It's all 2|4 hitters.
[21:19] <+RR> Whose damage does not depend on an ability.
[21:19] <+RR> Vampire can also fit or not.
[21:19] <+Absol> Abom is 5
[21:19] <+RR> Maybe Gargoyle would be more fitting.
[21:19] <+Absol> as is Mummy
[21:20] <+Absol> Gargoyle would fit too
[21:20] <+RR> As would be Gargoyle.
[21:22] <+Absol> are they all still balanced if Frog and Cock are nerfed?
[21:22] <+RR> Pegasus, Wyrm, Lycan, Forest Scorpion are in another group.
[21:22] <+RR> Well, yes.
[21:23] <+RR> And also are the Spirits and Firemaster.
[21:23] <+Absol> and Graboid
[21:23] <+RR> And Graboid too.
[21:23] <+RR> Yes.
[21:24] <+RR> Spark, Photon, Gemrider, Ash itter, Dragonfly, Warden, Skeleton, Chrys and Virus belong also to a different group.
[21:25] <+RR> Parasite needs to be cheered up a bit, tho.
[21:25] <+RR> Toadfish fits in the first list, tho.
[21:25] <+Absol> okay, let's compare the creatures in the first batch
[21:27] <+Absol> actually, no.
[21:27] <+RR> They all are pretty similar.
[21:27] <+Absol> RR is Frog balanced if upped?
[21:27] <+RR> Frog upped is a curse :v
[21:27] <+Absol> still unbalanced?
[21:28] <+Absol> compare Grav Merc and Minor Phoenix
[21:28] <+RR> Still the best rush creature existing.
[21:28] <+Absol> so the cost increase applies to both upped and unupped
[21:28] <+RR> Minor Phoenix is also bad.
[21:29] <+Absol> Minor phoenix isn't balanced?
[21:29] <+RR> Minor Phoenix is quite meh.
[21:29] <+RR> But touching it may make it more meh.
[21:29] <+Absol> meh, as in weak?
[21:30] <+Absol> How about new Guard and Antlion, which is comparable to it?
[21:30] <+Absol> UP can lead to UU

Quote from: Marsu on January 04, 2013, 05:22:56 pm

Are you kidding me? Life is one of the most UP elements atm anyway. Besides:
Creatures aren't meant to be balanced. Elements are supposed to be.
Wishing for a nerf for horned frog because Abyss crawler costs 3 :water is like saying deflag should be removed from this game because Life doesn't have it either.
It really surprises me that the very simple - yet clever - concept of each element having its own weaknesses & strenghts has to be explained.

And you think i'm the one being unthoughtful. Did you ever read this before replying?

Title: Re: Horned Frog | Giant Frog
Post by: Marsu on January 04, 2013, 05:45:27 pm

Quote from: Absol on January 04, 2013, 05:36:39 pm

And you think i'm the one being unthoughtful. Did you ever read this before replying?

So what you're trying to say is that the statement in your post is not your opinion?

Quote from: Absol on January 04, 2013, 02:41:55 pm

[...] we came to a conclusion that Frog [...] [is] OP in itself. [...]

Mh... nope. So yes, I actually read it.

Title: Re: Horned Frog | Giant Frog
Post by: TheAccuso on January 04, 2013, 05:48:19 pm

Quote from: Marsu on January 04, 2013, 05:22:56 pm

Are you kidding me? Life is one of the most UP elements atm anyway. Besides:
Creatures aren't meant to be balanced. Elements are supposed to be.

Than making a crappy element with all o|1 creatures and 0 damage reducing shields but including a 100|100 creature with a 4 :rainbow cost will be ok?

Title: Re: Horned Frog | Giant Frog
Post by: Absol on January 04, 2013, 05:48:49 pm

Quote from: Marsu on January 04, 2013, 05:45:27 pm

Quote from: Absol on January 04, 2013, 05:36:39 pm
And you think i'm the one being unthoughtful. Did you ever read this before replying?

So what you're trying to say is that the statement in your post is not your opinion?

Yes, i'm saying that it's not my opinion, but i'm opening the thread for discussion. Not flaming.

Quote from: Marsu on January 04, 2013, 05:45:27 pm

Quote from: Absol on January 04, 2013, 02:41:55 pm
[...] we came to a conclusion that Frog [...] [is] OP in itself. [...]

Mh... nope. So yes, I actually read it.

Stop reading out of context.
/offtopic

Title: Re: Horned Frog | Giant Frog
Post by: Marsu on January 04, 2013, 05:54:58 pm

Quote from: Absol on January 04, 2013, 05:48:49 pm

Stop reading out of context.
/offtopic

Now you're just making a fool out of yourself.
Here's the full quote:

Quote from: Absol on January 04, 2013, 02:41:55 pm

After a discussion with RR regarding Crawler being UP in regards to the new Merc buff, we came to a conclusion that Frog is used as the baseline for balancing similar creatures, yet it's OP in itself.

"We came to the conclusion that frog is OP in itself" - Nothing to discuss here. If you wanted to say something different, then just go ahead and admit it was written in a way that had to be misunderstood. But accusing me of not having read your post is ridicoulus.

Title: Re: Horned Frog | Giant Frog
Post by: Marsu on January 04, 2013, 06:00:06 pm

Doublepost, but otherwise it gets too messy.

Quote from: THEACCUSO on January 04, 2013, 05:48:19 pm

Than making a crappy element with all o|1 creatures and 0 damage reducing shields but including a 100|100 creature with a 4 :rainbow cost will be ok?

Elements have to be balanced. But of course cards have to be balanced too. That doesn't mean all cards have to be the same. There is no existing top deck that includes Horned Frog - case closed. Fractal Frog is the thing that comes closest, but it's not more than an HB farmer.
Oh, and speaking of fractal: If you're at it already, please compare upped Frog and upped Phoenix. -20% attack for effective invincibility. Zomg nerf Minor Phoenix!!11

Title: Re: Horned Frog | Giant Frog
Post by: mesaprotector on January 04, 2013, 06:16:36 pm

Quote from: Marsu on January 04, 2013, 06:00:06 pm

Doublepost, but otherwise it gets too messy.

Quote from: THEACCUSO on January 04, 2013, 05:48:19 pm
Than making a crappy element with all o|1 creatures and 0 damage reducing shields but including a 100|100 creature with a 4 :rainbow cost will be ok?

Elements have to be balanced. But of course cards have to be balanced too. That doesn't mean all cards have to be the same. There is no existing top deck that includes Horned Frog - case closed. Fractal Frog is the thing that comes closest, but it's not more than an HB farmer.
Oh, and speaking of fractal: If you're at it already, please compare upped Frog and upped Phoenix. -20% attack for effective invincibility. Zomg nerf Minor Phoenix!!11

This.

Also, try out some water rushes with the new SoP before calling Crawler useless.

Title: Re: Horned Frog | Giant Frog
Post by: OldTrees on January 04, 2013, 06:55:19 pm

Quote from: RavingRabbid on January 04, 2013, 03:01:10 pm

Phase Spider 3 -> 4|2 (a bad ability)
-snip-

Blue Crawler 3 -> 3|3
Firefly 3 -> 3|2 (a bad ability)
Graviton Mercenary 4 -> 3|5
Flesh Spider 3 -> 3|3 (a bad ability)

Theory based division between sets. (Updated CIA theory not the thread. No elemental bonuses)

Title: Re: Horned Frog | Giant Frog
Post by: eaglgenes101 on January 04, 2013, 07:13:33 pm

Mummy's actually 4 for 5|3.

Title: Re: Horned Frog | Giant Frog
Post by: willng3 on January 04, 2013, 07:30:46 pm

Alright there's several different aspects of this discussion that I would like to bring to light. Where to begin...

Let's pretend for a moment that Horned Frog is OP and should be nerfed to 3|3 as a result. What does this solve for the other 3 for 3 attackers? Nothing, right? We're then in a position where Flesh Spider and Firefly have an ability that none of the others have and Graviton Mercenary has more HP than the rest. Would those three then need to be nerfed so that they're all on equal standing? There's been talk of power creep occurring here recently, and this discussion is without a doubt direct proof of that.

The problem as I see it here is that there appears to be two separate views for how the game should function and progress in the future. One is according to each element separately while the other is the twelve collectively. This is why some people were furious when the Shards became Element-ized while others thought it was the best thing that could happen to the game. And this is also why there's a problem here. You're looking at the twelve elements as if they're all identical when in fact each one is supposed to have its own niche and advantages which the others do not possess.

Life (unupped) has always had cheaper creatures for as long as I've been playing this game. If you remove this advantage and view this in terms of all elements being equals then Horned Frog is too cheap in comparison to Blue Crawler and Flesh Spider. This is also why Emerald Dragon has the same cost, but noticeably higher HP than the other 10 for 10 Dragons. However, if you remove the cost reduction advantage then this also consequently takes away its swarming capabilities which in turn makes Mitosis and Empathic Bond weaker. So you'd also take away its swarming capabilities which in turn means that healing would be Life's greatest characteristic. But we already have Light for that, and Light does it better too.

The problem that I believe is at work here is not that there's necessarily a balancing issue, but rather that each of the cards made out to be UP are not fitting their niches well at all. What does a 3 for 3 creature do for Death? Nothing really as it already has Poison and Mummy to serve the lower part of the rushing domain. Its only real redemption is that it has the ability Web, but this has absolutely no value for Death. Buffing Flesh Spider's stats would make most feel like it's less UP, but consider that most agree that Elite Mummy and Flesh Recluse are not balanced towards each other, which consequently makes many feel that Mummy should be buffed or that the Recluse should be nerfed. The same could be expected to occur here depending on how it's revised.

I personally believe that the simplest solution to this problem would be to revise both the Spider and Crawler so that they fit their niches better. Not necessarily because it would help balance them in comparison to the other Elements, but rather so that their respective elements get more of a use from them. Things are going slightly off topic with this portion of my post, but I believe this a topic better aimed at dealing with the whole "power creep" issue once and for all since it will continue to occur in a similar manner for future updates if things continue like this, mark my words.

To help these cards fit their niches better you'd need to examine what their Elements are known for. Death seems to be about Poison and Decay. If additional Web synergy cannot be added to Death (some kind of penalty to grounded creatures perhaps?) then perhaps its ability needs to be revised into something more appropriate. Something that gives a bonus to Poison damage would be pretty cool, for instance. Crawlers on the other hand would need to make more use of Water's ability to control the opponent. Desiccation does little to help this, but perhaps the Crawler could be given some kind of bonus for every creature that is frozen? Point here is that Frogs (excluding upped) by themselves are not that strong, but with assistance from cards within Element they become much stronger. I probably wouldn't use Horned Frogs nearly as much if Adrenaline did not exist, for example.

I don't see Firefly as being comparable to the other 3 being discussed here really. It strikes me as more of a Skeleton-like card that exists mainly because it can be generated by another card, the difference here being that Firefly is significantly more useful than what Skeleton can offer by itself. I don't think that anyone can argue that Skeleton as a standalone card is strong.

Title: Re: Horned Frog | Giant Frog
Post by: EmeraldTiger on January 04, 2013, 07:57:03 pm

Well said willing3.

Title: Re: Horned Frog | Giant Frog
Post by: Rutarete on January 04, 2013, 08:49:16 pm

Quote from: EmeraldTiger on January 04, 2013, 07:57:03 pm

Well said willing3.

Title: Re: Horned Frog | Giant Frog
Post by: dragonsdemesne on January 04, 2013, 09:06:07 pm

Ditto to everything Willng said, especially this part:

Quote

You're looking at the twelve elements as if they're all identical when in fact each one is supposed to have its own niche and advantages which the others do not possess

In the case of life, that is more efficient creatures for their cost, which in the years to come, as we get a larger card base, should become more apparent.

edit: Although, I'm not sure I agree with the part about firefly being bad; I've used the unupped one before in hope decks and things like that, even in otherwise upgraded decks.

Elements the Game Forum - Free Online Fantasy Card Game

Elements the Game => Game Suggestions and Feedback => Nerf This Card! => Topic started by: thatnewguy on October 17, 2010, 03:08:55 pm