Post by: eaglgenes101 on August 30, 2012, 04:07:51 am
Post by: OldTrees on August 30, 2012, 04:13:15 am
Nightmare can be used without GoTP as draw denial.
Since neither needs to be used with the other to be competent, it is not a forced combo.
PS: You do know that your version of obsession would practically never be triggered as part of a denial tool? How would non time victims of Ghostmare with your version of GoTP be hurt by Obsession?
Post by: furballdn on August 30, 2012, 04:18:02 am
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on August 30, 2012, 04:24:44 am
This is no longer GotP. This is a completely new card.And it has a much better cost/attack ratio, making it much more valuable in mono - :time rushes or Ghostals that rely on late-game mass Fractals. (10 attack upgraded by itself is worth 8 :underworld at its cheapest, and 5 :underworld for 7 attack is pushing it when 5 quanta generally equals 5 ATK but gets ignored by several cards like Puffer Fish.)
If anything, this is a buff. (It's not really even a berf IMHO because even though the ability becomes useless and makes Ghostmare unreliable the card becomes much more rush-efficient. This is just begging to replace Archangel in an SNovabow.)
Post by: furballdn on August 30, 2012, 04:27:09 am
Post by: eaglgenes101 on August 30, 2012, 04:43:59 am
And nightmaring GotP would deny the opponent harder than a non-GotP creature and let you recover some of the damage cost of using GotP.
Post by: furballdn on August 30, 2012, 04:51:29 am
No, it's not buffed. By targeted I meant any sort of click on GotP that made something happen to it, even playing it, so playing a full hand of upped GotP would deal 56 damage to you. (If you can come up with a better wording, do that please.)That is not the definition of "targetted" So it is now an efficient creature that damages you once when you summon it? Meh.
And nightmaring GotP would deny the opponent harder than a non-GotP creature and let you recover some of the damage cost of using GotP.
I do not see
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on August 30, 2012, 04:53:18 am
No, it's not buffed. By targeted I meant any sort of click on GotP that made something happen to it, even playing it, so playing a full hand of upped GotP would deal 56 damage to you. Targeted generally implies target on the field only. Also, it might just be me but if that's how the ability is used, then GoTP seems to turn into an extremely reckless 'Glass Cannon' more fitting of Fire's aggressive nature.
And nightmaring GotP would deny the opponent harder than a non-GotP creature and let you recover some of the damage cost of using GotP. So in other words, GoTP keeps its Obsession ability but also becomes more rushy and gets more attack. How is this balanced? [as a general rule oneshot HP damage tends to have less 'weight' as a balancing factor against the longterm effect it provides, hence the large HP penalty of Shard of Sacrifice.]
Post by: eaglgenes101 on August 30, 2012, 04:58:51 am
And currently, GotP would deal its damage to the player then again every time it's targeted by the opponent. Is this a good cost for the 1 extra attack that comes with the card?
EDIT: Edited OP with a new suggestion.
Post by: OldTrees on August 30, 2012, 05:58:34 am
This version is an unjustified buff
Post by: eaglgenes101 on August 31, 2012, 03:06:19 am
Now GoTP + Nightmare = 1 of your hand rewound + 2 draws denied the opponent (since playing GoTP does not rewind a card in your hand)No, it's the owner of GotP that takes the pentalty, not the opponent.
Now GoTP denies 1 draw per CC used to remove it
This version is an unjustified buff
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on August 31, 2012, 12:23:31 pm
Still, you're technically making GoTP act as a free Reverse Time once you successfully Nightmare it into the opponent's hand. I'm not exactly sure what's the balance difference between 'don't discard to avoid taking damage' and 'don't discard to avoid denying your draws', except that the 2nd favors denial a lot more and weakens it's 'rush' potential with Nightmare. (In other words, I don't get why it is a nerf because it got a stronger effect that affects the owner as a counterbalance to the increased denial.)Now GoTP + Nightmare = 1 of your hand rewound + 2 draws denied the opponent (since playing GoTP does not rewind a card in your hand)No, it's the owner of GotP that takes the pentalty, not the opponent.
Now GoTP denies 1 draw per CC used to remove it
This version is an unjustified buff
Post by: iancudorinmarian on November 04, 2012, 02:04:13 pm
10 is just too much, like a 1 hit from a regular dragon.
Post by: Cheesy111 on November 04, 2012, 02:19:02 pm
Post by: kimham8a on November 04, 2012, 02:59:04 pm
Post by: TheAccuso on November 04, 2012, 03:18:34 pm
The change is fine, if I understand it correctly, but GotP isn't too prevalent or too uncommon in the meta (arena at least). No change is needed.You can't base the needing of a change on the fact that a card is used too much or it isn't, a card must be balanced and with a logic mechanic even if it is the most/less used card of the game.
On time:
As i wrote before, i think time have this big step between Scarab and GotP in terms of costs and statistics, i would like to see a card in between the two as i suggested in card ideas section with "Ra".
On the card:
GotP is fine as is, balanced, useful, strong enought to justify its cost and with a unique ability wich everyone approve methink.
Post by: kimham8a on November 04, 2012, 06:21:32 pm
The change is fine, if I understand it correctly, but GotP isn't too prevalent or too uncommon in the meta (arena at least). No change is needed.You can't base the needing of a change on the fact that a card is used too much or it isn't, a card must be balanced and with a logic mechanic even if it is the most/less used card of the game.
On time:
As i wrote before, i think time have this big step between Scarab and GotP in terms of costs and statistics, i would like to see a card in between the two as i suggested in card ideas section with "Ra".
On the card:
GotP is fine as is, balanced, useful, strong enought to justify its cost and with a unique ability wich everyone approve methink.
If the balance isn't right the popularity of the card probably won't be balanced either.
Post by: TheAccuso on November 04, 2012, 06:29:22 pm
zorry, i read as you were saying that the popularity of a card was the principal factor in the judgement of a balance card, my bad.The change is fine, if I understand it correctly, but GotP isn't too prevalent or too uncommon in the meta (arena at least). No change is needed.You can't base the needing of a change on the fact that a card is used too much or it isn't, a card must be balanced and with a logic mechanic even if it is the most/less used card of the game.
On time:
As i wrote before, i think time have this big step between Scarab and GotP in terms of costs and statistics, i would like to see a card in between the two as i suggested in card ideas section with "Ra".
On the card:
GotP is fine as is, balanced, useful, strong enought to justify its cost and with a unique ability wich everyone approve methink.
If the balance isn't right the popularity of the card probably won't be balanced either.
Post by: kimham8a on November 04, 2012, 06:39:40 pm
Yeah I was just saying it was a possible ''symptom'' of the sickness if you will. :)zorry, i read as you were saying that the popularity of a card was the principal factor in the judgement of a balance card, my bad.The change is fine, if I understand it correctly, but GotP isn't too prevalent or too uncommon in the meta (arena at least). No change is needed.You can't base the needing of a change on the fact that a card is used too much or it isn't, a card must be balanced and with a logic mechanic even if it is the most/less used card of the game.
On time:
As i wrote before, i think time have this big step between Scarab and GotP in terms of costs and statistics, i would like to see a card in between the two as i suggested in card ideas section with "Ra".
On the card:
GotP is fine as is, balanced, useful, strong enought to justify its cost and with a unique ability wich everyone approve methink.
If the balance isn't right the popularity of the card probably won't be balanced either.
Post by: OldTrees on November 04, 2012, 10:54:26 pm
Identifying the imbalance of an imbalanced card.
Misreading the balance of a balanced card.
Playstyle scale of the card (Niche to Staple).
Post by: Cheesy111 on November 04, 2012, 11:34:05 pm
Underuse/Overuse is a symptom of 1 of 3 causes:
Identifying the imbalance of an imbalanced card.
Misreading the balance of a balanced card.
Playstyle scale of the card (Niche to Staple).
I would submit that an overpowered card could also be read as an underpowered card, and thus the second criterion does not apply only to balanced cards.
Post by: OldTrees on November 05, 2012, 01:02:03 am
Valid correctionUnderuse/Overuse is a symptom of 1 of 3 causes:
Identifying the imbalance of an imbalanced card.
Misreading the balance of a balanced card. Or extremely misreading the imbalance of an imbalanced card.
Playstyle scale of the card (Niche to Staple).
I would submit that an overpowered card could also be read as an underpowered card, and thus the second criterion does not apply only to balanced cards.
Post by: CrockettRocket on December 15, 2013, 12:07:32 am
Post by: Naesala on December 15, 2013, 12:34:25 am
Post by: CrockettRocket on December 15, 2013, 12:41:17 am
Post by: Jyiber on December 15, 2013, 01:06:54 am
Post by: CrockettRocket on December 15, 2013, 01:14:31 am
Post by: CrockettRocket on December 15, 2013, 01:17:05 am
I've never had a problem with ghostmare. Actually, fairly simple to beat if you use high CC and just hold your cards.High cc. Hold your cards. While ghostmare can dump their cards? And reverse time your already played ones? A ghost has such high attack that 7 for 9 damage is amazing, easily spammable. Except its high cost kind of makes it hard to fractal unless centered around it.
Post by: Fippe94 on December 15, 2013, 01:20:17 am
A single upgraded ghost and 5 nightmares can kill someone in 5 turns and have a bit of overkill to ensure 5 turns.
Yeah, but only if your hand is completely empty when beginning the NM combo, and and assuming you have no shields. And are you seriously calling a 6 card combo killing someone in 5 turns OP? Just normal dragon spam does the same thing, and let's not even talk about OTKs...
Post by: CrockettRocket on December 15, 2013, 01:32:59 am
Even with shields, nightmare does damage too. And upped it gets 5 turns easily. You can replace some nightmares with ghosts so the combo is very flexible for achieving 5 turns. It doesnt have to be quite empty either. I would say if you modded it to max speed it could get a ttw of 5.6 or somewhere around there. Add some golden nymphs and sors. Fact is I find the combo just does too much. Its almost as bad as sofo and yet more effective then sofo.A single upgraded ghost and 5 nightmares can kill someone in 5 turns and have a bit of overkill to ensure 5 turns.
Yeah, but only if your hand is completely empty when beginning the NM combo, and and assuming you have no shields. And are you seriously calling a 6 card combo killing someone in 5 turns OP? Just normal dragon spam does the same thing, and let's not even talk about OTKs...
Post by: Fippe94 on December 15, 2013, 01:45:47 am
Post by: CrockettRocket on December 15, 2013, 09:34:03 am
Post by: omegareaper7 on December 15, 2013, 07:00:55 pm
Post by: Fippe94 on December 15, 2013, 07:09:22 pm
I would, if I had upped ghosts. I havnt used a ghost of the past deck because im so highly against them. Ill modify it to max speed and blow some people away. Ill do test runs on ai3. 50 games.It is really bad to post "nerf this card" without even trying the card/deck for yourself. If you haven't tried it yourself you should really shut up about "get 5 turns easily" and "the deck is too OP". You have no idea how strong/weak ghostmare is if you have not played it yourself, you will never get enough data on it by only facing opponent's decks.
Post by: CrockettRocket on December 15, 2013, 10:53:51 pm
Ill take your words into consideration when you can convey them without being rude. "If you haven't tried it yourself you should really shut up..." I do however realize that my opinion of the card/deck is small because I havent tried the deck, but I have however built the thing for my friends and have seen them use it. I however wasnt the one clicking cards but telling him exactly what to click and where. I plan on remaking ghostmare in trainer and giving a 50 game test run on ai3. But if you think I am simply going to shut up about giving my opinion sir, then you are sorely picking a battle, one which I will not discuss any further.I would, if I had upped ghosts. I havnt used a ghost of the past deck because im so highly against them. Ill modify it to max speed and blow some people away. Ill do test runs on ai3. 50 games.It is really bad to post "nerf this card" without even trying the card/deck for yourself. If you haven't tried it yourself you should really shut up about "get 5 turns easily" and "the deck is too OP". You have no idea how strong/weak ghostmare is if you have not played it yourself, you will never get enough data on it by only facing opponent's decks.
Post by: Fippe94 on December 16, 2013, 01:42:50 pm
Post by: timetock on December 16, 2013, 03:58:45 pm
Though I have to agree ghostmare is such a pain to play against. You can't even use sanctuary because he'll steal it. However ghost of the past isn't something what i'd call OP. Or broken.
tl;dr nah. Not OP. If it was OP I would see it more in PvP. Which I don't.
Post by: Keolino on December 16, 2013, 04:38:49 pm
If it was OP I would see it more in PvP. Which I don't.
People really don't like to play against Ghostmare.
That's one side of the medal. But people don't like playing WITH Ghostmare as well. (At least that is the feeling that I got...)
Post by: Naesala on December 16, 2013, 05:58:49 pm
Ghostmare has Steal and Reverse Time, two already annoying cards. So, when facing a Ghostmare, you face draw denial, unblockable damage, your permanents turned against you, your creature's effectively gone forever, and if you have no other permanents; your quanta producers removed. This makes games dreadfully boring and painful. Devtal may lock you down, but Ghostmare forces you to punch yourself in the face.
The second problem is Ghostmare packs the counter to it's counter (this is also the problem with Mono Aether). Ghostmare can steal sanctuaries that stop the nightmare effect, or hourglasses/sundials that give the player draw power, and then make use of either. So, you can't casually counter Ghostmare. The only way you can stop it is if you've got an exceptionally hard counter, the only ones I can think of being Monotime rush and Earth+Light EM Stall with PA's.
It's just unpleasent to go up against, and not creative.
Post by: omegareaper7 on December 16, 2013, 09:20:59 pm
The problem with ghostmare isn't just GotP+Nightmare. It's the other things it can pack.Reverse time is a given, it isn't nearly as strong without. However steal is much harder to find room for. Running less then 12 pillars is a large hindrance already, and taking out nightmares or ghosts decreases the chance of getting it early.
Ghostmare has Steal and Reverse Time, two already annoying cards. So, when facing a Ghostmare, you face draw denial, unblockable damage, your permanents turned against you, your creature's effectively gone forever, and if you have no other permanents; your quanta producers removed. This makes games dreadfully boring and painful. Devtal may lock you down, but Ghostmare forces you to punch yourself in the face.
The second problem is Ghostmare packs the counter to it's counter (this is also the problem with Mono Aether). Ghostmare can steal sanctuaries that stop the nightmare effect, or hourglasses/sundials that give the player draw power, and then make use of either. So, you can't casually counter Ghostmare. The only way you can stop it is if you've got an exceptionally hard counter, the only ones I can think of being Monotime rush and Earth+Light EM Stall with PA's.
It's just unpleasent to go up against, and not creative.
Now, that isn't to say it is impossible to run a steal or two, but more then that and, unless built for it, it becomes a hindrance.
Post by: Keolino on December 17, 2013, 06:59:38 am
Reverse time is a given, it isn't nearly as strong without. However steal is much harder to find room for. Running less then 12 pillars is a large hindrance already, and taking out nightmares or ghosts decreases the chance of getting it early.
Now, that isn't to say it is impossible to run a steal or two, but more then that and, unless built for it, it becomes a hindrance.
upped
darkness mark
7-8 pillars
5-6 pends
6 ghosts
4-6 nightmare
2-3 steal
3-4 reverse time
0-1 Eternity
0-1 Vampire Dagger
makes 27-35 cards, you can make the variations you like from here on. (looking right now, I would probably try the 27 cards+8th pillar+4th reverse time+5th nightmare out first.) <-- that makes 30 cards with 13 pills/pends, without lacking any of the combo cards. I don't know how you would possibly get below 12 pills/pends when building ghostmares, if you don't want to go below that number.
I never tried Ghostmare, but I was able to make a list on spot, so it probably isn't that difficult to do. Probably isn't perfect though, since I haven't played a since test match.
Post by: omegareaper7 on December 17, 2013, 07:08:15 am
I apologize if I am leaving something out, the post is mildly confusing, which could be because I am tired, who knows. Also, I feel as if we are going off topic from the original idea of the thread.
Post by: Keolino on December 17, 2013, 07:36:25 am
Swapping pillars for pendulums really hurts the speed at which ghosts come out, and going above 30 cards when you need one of 6/7 creatures asap is just a suicide risk.
Ok, maybe my post is a bit confusing. I didn't want to go above 30 cards, but since the core only has 27 cards, I meant to fill the last 3 cards with variations and try it out.
About the speed when swapping pillars pends I can't say for sure, but with an elite queen deck of mine (costs 6 quanta) with a tower/pend split (5 towers+8pends in 30 cards, if I am not mistaken), doesn't hurt the FIRST Queen the tiniest bit. (The second takes it's time though...) Upped ghost costs 7 quanta, so one more, but I don't think that that would be a really hurting difference. Instead, I want to have some more darkness quanta, so that I can get some more dark quanta for steals if the opponent plays a sanctuary fast.
About the speed when swapping pillars pends I can't say for sure, but with an elite queen deck of mine (costs 6 quanta) with a tower/pend split (5 towers+8pends in 30 cards, if I am not mistaken), doesn't hurt the FIRST Queen the tiniest bit. (The second takes it's time though...) Upped ghost costs 7 quanta, so one more, but I don't think that that would be a really hurting difference. Instead, I want to have some more darkness quanta, so that I can get some more dark quanta for steals if the opponent plays a sanctuary fast.
Back at the topic, I think it is true that Ghostmare is a pretty strong deck, but I don't think it is OP. That is simply because it easily sucks if you get a bad hand.
Unupped, it can't even farm bronze, and upped nobody ever recorded wins for bronzer or silver in the 1.32 arena thread (And I wouldn't think that it would be able to farm more than bronze or silver).
Ghostmare sucks against faster rainbow rushes, and it gets a huge problem if the opponent has some miracles, or has a strong enough shield (fog, dusk, permafrost, turtle, or jade+healing, or diamond+healing) when you don't have enough steals.
^^everything personal experiences when playing AGAINST ghostmares, so nothing I can be 100 % sure of. (I actually did test unupped Ghostmare against bronze though...)
Post by: timetock on December 17, 2013, 02:52:49 pm
Post by: CrockettRocket on December 17, 2013, 09:05:10 pm
Post by: omegareaper7 on December 17, 2013, 09:25:41 pm
How much worse would it be IF obsession was 8? Still viable? Still good? Or only playable in the arena?6 unupped 8 upped? Would still be very much workable. Not quite as strong, but honestly, it doesn't need to do all that much damage to help win. Not against it, though, also not for it.
Post by: Keolino on December 18, 2013, 07:46:49 am
How much worse would it be IF obsession was 8? Still viable? Still good? Or only playable in the arena?
You should be careful about huge nerfs of cards. Just imagine Ghost of the Past is your favourite card, and then you see it nerfed by half. People tend to get disappointed in games and leave them because of things like that. When you nerf something, try to keep it small, and then look how the card/deck works now. I am totally against that 6-8 obsession, but I would be fine with trying out something like 8 unupped 10 upped. (Or to increase the nightmare cost unupped and upped by one each, but that is off topic)
Post by: Pineapple on December 18, 2013, 10:36:12 am
Ghost of the Past + Nightmare isn't even that OP.
The problem is that Darkness and Time have access to Steal and Reverse Time. So this isn't a question of individual card balance anymore. This is about, at its core, balance within the structure of how EtG and its basic mechanics work.
Nerfing Ghost of the Past won't fix the problem. Nerfing balanced cards because of powerful yet easily countered decks would only make the problem worse in the long-run.
Post by: Keolino on December 18, 2013, 11:20:08 am
Ghost of the Past isn't OP.
Ghost of the Past + Nightmare isn't even that OP.
The problem is that Darkness and Time have access to Steal and Reverse Time. So this isn't a question of individual card balance anymore. This is about, at its core, balance within the structure of how EtG and its basic mechanics work.
Nerfing Ghost of the Past won't fix the problem. Nerfing balanced cards because of powerful yet easily countered decks would only make the problem worse in the long-run.
I agree with everything you say. Jet nerfing the skill of Ghost of the Past a little won't hurt it that much. It is a balanced card now, and with a little less skill power it will still be balanced.
Post by: Pineapple on December 18, 2013, 11:26:42 am
If anything, I'd go for an HP reduction.
Post by: Keolino on December 18, 2013, 11:52:18 am
I want to disagree. Right now the Ghost+Nightmare combo is pretty mediocre in a non-dedicated Ghostmare deck.
...That's true. I didn't think of that. Nerfing it that way would really harm those decks (Well not all, A Ghostmare PSNBow which I just tried out wouldn't be effected in most games)
About the HP reduction, I really don't like that idea. Even now, Ghostmare is really vulnerable to CC because it has not many creatures. With HP of 3, it would become a bit hopeless to play against air decks (Owls Eye) as well as fire decks (Fire bolt, rain of fire).
Post by: Fippe94 on December 18, 2013, 12:03:06 pm
Post by: Pineapple on December 18, 2013, 12:14:15 pm
I don't really get what you are saying? Is it really a big problem that GotP+Nightmare is only viable in specialized decks? The same are true for other combos as well. I don't really see the problem, because both GotP and NM are completely viable on their own.
In the current meta Ghost of the Past and Nightmare see little play outside of splashes of a mid-range hitter in quanta-heavy rainbows (Ghost) and splashes of a low-cost damage spell in quanta-light rainbows (Nightmare). This is excluding Ghostmare, of course.
Post by: Fippe94 on December 18, 2013, 12:28:56 pm
Post by: Keolino on December 18, 2013, 12:42:48 pm
In the current meta Ghost of the Past and Nightmare see little play outside of splashes of a mid-range hitter in quanta-heavy rainbows (Ghost) and splashes of a low-cost damage spell in quanta-light rainbows (Nightmare). This is excluding Ghostmare, of course.
The cards are still good in their respective monos too, at least I use them for that.
I guess they are still good cards, but not seen very often. You can see nightmare sometimes in rainbows or mono darks, but I rarely see somebody playing ghosts (outside of ghostmare) Mono time isn't used that often, but that doesn't mean that GotP is UP outside of Ghostmare, right?
I guess a small nerf of the skill should be fine, since nearly no Ghost-Decks (aside from Ghostmare) rely on the skill. Most decks don't even care that he has one.
Post by: Aneninen on May 15, 2014, 09:56:54 pm
Eventually, as Naesala and Pinapple have already mentioned, the biggest problem is not the card itself, not even the Ghostmare combo but the deck around it.
It is true that it's hard to put enough Steals and Reverse Times (or an Eternity, some Siphons etc.) in this deck but when you encounter a Ghostmare you don't know the exact deck, nor the draw of your opponent. So, you still have to play against it expecting that you're goint go come across a Steal or a Reverse Time any time. Plus, you should keep some cards in your hand even if you could play them. All these lead to a boring and an unreliable match. Against a bad draw (or a bad design) you still might play extra-cautiously while sometimes you simply can't win. In addition, the Ghost itself hits you hard with its attack...
So, Ghost of the Past is "situationally overpowered".
Maybe the card should remain the same (or even the cost could be lowered as a buff) but, it should be moved to another element with which a lesser versatibility could be reached. :aether perhaps ( :aether / :darkness are common anyway, like Pestal), or :water or something else...
Frankly, :time / :darkness provides almost everything – massive creature and permanent control, multiple draws, healing, hard hitters... why must such a powerful combo like Ghostmare strenghten this "pairing" of elements?
Post by: omegareaper7 on May 16, 2014, 01:02:00 am
Post by: CrockettRocket on May 16, 2014, 04:00:53 pm
Post by: omegareaper7 on May 16, 2014, 05:59:46 pm
Also, switching ghost to another element would also kill time. It would get rid of one of its few good, viable combos, along with one of, if not its best, offensive cards.
Post by: CrockettRocket on May 16, 2014, 07:09:24 pm