Post by: Jumpitydude on June 21, 2012, 02:52:41 pm
I will admit, if I made a new topic against a card every time I lost due to it, I'd be banned faster than you can blink, but this isn't one of those instances. I actually won the game I realized this in, but Neurotoxin needs to be nerfed. I had about 21 poison on me by the end of the game, about ten turns, due to two cards my opponent had, even after I stole his Procrastination. Sure, use enough cards and you can get more poison even faster on your opponent, but the amount of poison isn't my issue; it's how few cards my opponent had to use to get that much poison so quickly. Sadly, I have no current ideas of how to nerf it without making it completely ineffective, but I am very open to suggestions.
Post by: OldTrees on June 21, 2012, 03:03:54 pm
Arsenic = 10 poison after 10 turns.
Forest Scorpion = 10 poison after 10 turns.
That's 20 poison in 10 turns using 2 cards.
Post by: Chapuz on June 21, 2012, 03:05:50 pm
21 poison after 10 turns due to 2 cards?I was gonna make the comparison against just a forest with Adrenaline, and that's on a single elements. Thanks :)
Arsenic = 10 poison after 10 turns.
Forest Scorpion = 10 poison after 10 turns.
That's 20 poison in 10 turns without even trying to be efficient (adrenaline).
Post by: esran on June 21, 2012, 03:12:41 pm
Post by: Absol on June 21, 2012, 03:59:36 pm
Post by: Jumpitydude on June 21, 2012, 04:18:30 pm
Of course, thinking more about it, I guess the fact that it can be useless as much as OP is actually a good reason not to nerf it.
Post by: omegareaper7 on June 21, 2012, 04:38:11 pm
I think I should make it more clear that the entire game was around ten turns, and he didn't get the scorpions out until about halfway through. And the big point is that the poison is dependent on you playing cards, which means that the only time it's useful without being OP is if the one infected only needs to play a few more cards, otherwise it's special poisoning ability is either useless, with all the cards already in play, or OP, where you still need to play a good number of cards. The point I want to make is that the poison should be dependent of the cards played.Except getting that much over 5 turns would mean you played a lot of cards. Its not hard to get around its poison and make it weak.
Of course, thinking more about it, I guess the fact that it can be useless as much as OP is actually a good reason not to nerf it.
Post by: rickerd on June 21, 2012, 04:54:23 pm
there's much to counter it, and the scorp allready starts with 0 atk so you need to buff it
Post by: furballdn on June 21, 2012, 05:22:27 pm
You claim you received 21 poison counters after 5 turns of scorpion? That means you need to have played 16 cards in 5 turns, or about 3 cards per turn in 5 turns. Y U play so much cards while neurotoxin'd.
Post by: Jumpitydude on June 21, 2012, 09:07:54 pm
::)
You claim you received 21 poison counters after 5 turns of scorpion? That means you need to have played 16 cards in 5 turns, or about 3 cards per turn in 5 turns. Y U play so much cards while neurotoxin'd.
Don't forget that they still add a poison counter when they hit you, and they had Blessing applied.
But more importantly, my argument feels really invalid now, since I've torn that deck in two every time I've gone against it after making this thread. This card feels like a joke against my deck, especially compared to Crusader.
Post by: furballdn on June 21, 2012, 09:09:57 pm
I factored in them attacking even though you said you had a procrastination ::)::)
You claim you received 21 poison counters after 5 turns of scorpion? That means you need to have played 16 cards in 5 turns, or about 3 cards per turn in 5 turns. Y U play so much cards while neurotoxin'd.
Don't forget that they still add a poison counter when they hit you, and they had Blessing applied.
But more importantly, my argument feels really invalid now, since I've torn that deck in two every time I've gone against it after making this thread. This card feels like a joke against my deck, especially compared to Crusader.
5 turns = +5 poison
21-5=16, you would've had to played 16 cards in 5 turns (How would you even do that without massive amounts of hourglasses?). Therefore you argument is invalid.
And please, stop making a new thread complaining about each card in AI3 every time you lose to them. And just because you can beat something doesn't mean it's weak or underpowered.
Post by: Jumpitydude on June 21, 2012, 09:39:36 pm
I factored in them attacking even though you said you had a procrastination ::)::)
You claim you received 21 poison counters after 5 turns of scorpion? That means you need to have played 16 cards in 5 turns, or about 3 cards per turn in 5 turns. Y U play so much cards while neurotoxin'd.
Don't forget that they still add a poison counter when they hit you, and they had Blessing applied.
But more importantly, my argument feels really invalid now, since I've torn that deck in two every time I've gone against it after making this thread. This card feels like a joke against my deck, especially compared to Crusader.
5 turns = +5 poison
21-5=16, you would've had to played 16 cards in 5 turns (How would you even do that without massive amounts of hourglasses?). Therefore you argument is invalid.
And please, stop making a new thread complaining about each card in AI3 every time you lose to them. And just because you can beat something doesn't mean it's weak or underpowered.
I guess I should have made it more clear, but he did have two scorpions, and I'm not sure it was exactly ten turns or that he played them on turn five, just that he had them and they got a lot of poison on me.
Also, I've only made two threads; one for Crusader, and this one. And I'm not calling it weak, I'm just saying that I've got a good deck to counter it. I'm currently using Adrenalin Vampires, and creature control decks kick my hind very frequently. It may not seem like it, but I'm trying to make valid points, though I apparently have tunnel vision when doing so.
Post by: furballdn on June 21, 2012, 09:50:00 pm
Post by: OldTrees on June 21, 2012, 10:12:22 pm
I guess I should have made it more clear, but he did have two scorpionsSo it was 4 cards not just 2.
4 cards dealing 20 poison over 5 turns = 1 poison per card per turn = Forest Scorpion
Post by: SpineApple on June 23, 2012, 05:14:08 pm
It's great just as it is, I say.
Post by: Xamuel on June 23, 2012, 06:04:12 pm
Post by: Cheesy111 on June 23, 2012, 08:16:20 pm
Not OP at all. However, there's an argument to be made that Shard of Sacrifice is OP, and that's often combo'd with this guy. In fact, that's the whole premise of some popular platinum arena farming decks: get one dune scorpion out early, get one hit with it to turn neurotoxin on, then cower like a little girl behind every sort of stall (mostly shard of sacrifice) you can.
If there's an argument to be made that SoSac is OP, please put it in the Nerf Shard of Sacrifice thread and not the Nerf Dune Scorpion thread. Also, SPlat's existence does not constitute OPness in and of itself.
Post by: supertoxicwaste on June 24, 2012, 01:21:51 am
1. You need to buff it first, making it a duo/combo.
2. on average(not counting RT and procrastination) if whatever you are playing deals your opponent/heals you more than 1 per turn, it is a good idea to play it. eg. playing a photon would deal both you and your opponent 1 damage per turn.
Post by: Cheesy111 on June 24, 2012, 05:16:46 pm
It's not op.2. is a good point but it assumes that whatever you are playing will not get CC'd or destroyed or nullified or make you lose earlier, so make sure to keep those points in mind.
1. You need to buff it first, making it a duo/combo.
2. on average(not counting RT and procrastination) if whatever you are playing deals your opponent/heals you more than 1 per turn, it is a good idea to play it. eg. playing a photon would deal both you and your opponent 1 damage per turn.
Post by: asiantraceur on July 12, 2012, 05:52:26 am
Post by: SpineApple on July 12, 2012, 10:37:42 am
I think its pretty good the way it is makes people think about which cards they absolutely need to put down and pretty sure time doesnt have any cards that would give dune scorpion attack boost so it can inflict poisin that way so itd have to be at least a duo-deck...It's good 'cause AI is an idiot and keeps spamming cards after being neurotoxined! <3
Post by: neuroleptics on July 12, 2012, 10:51:53 am
Post by: Ilias22 on August 16, 2012, 08:51:04 am
Post by: choongmyoung on August 16, 2012, 09:34:44 am
Compare this to the deathstalker.
They both are 0 ATK and needs buff, making duo.
And on avg, Deathstalker and Dune Scropion adds 2 poison counter each turn.
Yes, if deathstalker is dead there's no more poison unlike dune scorpion.
That's true, but +1 cost for dune scorpion
Furthermore, neurotoxin effect is not stacked.
Even you played two dune scorpions, opponents get 1 counter when playing cards, not 2.
Post by: blahs15 on August 30, 2012, 02:20:36 am
UNRELATED.... SLIGHTLY. I'm suggesting a different idea.
:time :time :time :time :time :time :time :time :time :time :time :time
So, I came to "nerf this card" section just looking for the dune scorp. I think nuerotoxin is fine, and the card is currently okay.
But I just had a fun thought on how to make this card more interesting.
I just don't really want to make a new forum topic about it without really knowing how the system works completely.
My idea:
Unupped: same skill, nuerotoxin, BUT make it a 0|0 creature. (still costs 3 :time)
Upped: same skill, nuerotoxin, and can either be 0|2 or 0|3 like it is currently. (still costs 3 :time)
Reasoning:
1. So, nuerotoxin only takes 1 turn to take effect, (1 attack).
2. Also, all the buffs I can currently think of (blessing, chaos power, momentum) give at least +1 hp anyway.
3. This way the scorpion will pretty much have to be played the same turn as the buff
4. If there are buffs that don't increase hp also, it could be a nerf in that sense... It will only add the 1 poison once, unlike other scorpions where it gets added every turn
5. It gives people a REAL reason to upgrade the card --> you can play it without a buff
--- +2 hp currently is relatively useless since it only needs to attack once before dying.
Counter Reasoning: (That I came up with while writing this post ?_? )
1. Ai use of this card will be affected, and may not work nearly the same way that may be needed
2. May not go with the theme of the card (why would a scorpion die instantly for no reason?)
3. since all the buffs I can think of also increase hp, this will not prevent anything... but may instead just cause unrest in players
4. new people without knowing the effects of all the cards will not understand the potential of this card
Anyway, I was just thinking of this idea randomly, if you think it's great, by all means spread the word. If not, feel free to let the topic die.
Post by: furballdn on August 30, 2012, 02:24:06 am
Post by: OldTrees on August 30, 2012, 02:29:09 am
Post by: furballdn on August 30, 2012, 02:31:11 am
Only the attack of non water creatures is buffed by SoP.Reworded for more clarity.
Post by: thispersonisagenius on August 30, 2012, 03:20:26 am
Post by: Cheesy111 on August 31, 2012, 12:19:40 am
I'm suggesting a bit of a "berf" here. Since Dune Scorpion only has 1 HP, why not start it out with some attack, while making it so that 1 neurotoxin poison is added for every TWO cards your opponent plays? This halves its effectiveness, then increases it by a factor of about 10-15% (depending on how long games go).
Is there any reasoning for this berf? It would be silly to buff or nerf or berf just for the sake of doing so.
Post by: tommygunner on July 17, 2013, 10:20:45 am
I have many rages with this card
The thing i find annoying about this card is its effect
I find it annoying that after i kill it, the effect still keeps going
I know that you need a up attack card to make it work and all but the effect of it last FOREVER
so these are my suggestions :
1. you stop its effect when it dies (not the poison of course) just the part that whenever you play a card part
2. make its attack 1|2 and 1|3 and *add number 1 here*
Post by: BeefSupreme on July 17, 2013, 10:29:16 am
If a card dies, you can't have the effect go on. So, that sounds like some sort of bug that you should report.
Other than that, I think this card is completely balanced seeing as Time has no buff cards that makes this particular card's ability activate, so you need a duo for it to work.
Post by: Rutarete on July 17, 2013, 10:33:46 am
As to the effect lasting after it dies, it's not supposed to do that.Yes, Neurotoxin is supposed to do that.
Post by: BeefSupreme on July 17, 2013, 10:36:15 am
But if Dune Scorpion isn't in play, then shouldn't its effect die with it?As to the effect lasting after it dies, it's not supposed to do that.Yes, Neurotoxin is supposed to do that.
Post by: tommygunner on July 17, 2013, 10:46:37 am
But if Dune Scorpion isn't in play, then shouldn't its effect die with it?As to the effect lasting after it dies, it's not supposed to do that.Yes, Neurotoxin is supposed to do that.
Hate it yet ?
Post by: Dm on July 17, 2013, 10:50:45 am
Same logic applies here. The only difference is that in here, the "poison" will continue to rack up as you play cards. And that's totally fine because that's t
Post by: BeefSupreme on July 17, 2013, 11:01:30 am
If a scorpion stings you and you kill it with a broomstick, does the "effect" of the poison go away?Wrong analogy.
Same logic applies here. The only difference is that in here, the "poison" will continue to rack up as you play cards. And that's totally fine because that's t
If a scorpion stings you and you kill it with a broomstick, does it keep injecting venom into you?
Post by: Nepycros on July 17, 2013, 11:21:18 am
If a scorpion stings you and you kill it with a broomstick, does the "effect" of the poison go away?Wrong analogy.
Same logic applies here. The only difference is that in here, the "poison" will continue to rack up as you play cards. And that's totally fine because that's t
If a scorpion stings you and you kill it with a broomstick, does it keep injecting venom into you?
The idea is that the venom spreads the more you move, and get your blood pumping, hence Neurotoxin. To play a card, you would have to move your arm, spreading it faster. The idea is how much of your body has been envenomed, not necessarily the volume primarily injected, though subsequent stings would add to the mix.
Post by: BeefSupreme on July 17, 2013, 11:29:05 am
First of all, if I got stung by a scorpion, the LAST thing I'd be doing is playing cards.If a scorpion stings you and you kill it with a broomstick, does the "effect" of the poison go away?Wrong analogy.
Same logic applies here. The only difference is that in here, the "poison" will continue to rack up as you play cards. And that's totally fine because that's t
If a scorpion stings you and you kill it with a broomstick, does it keep injecting venom into you?
The idea is that the venom spreads the more you move, and get your blood pumping, hence Neurotoxin. To play a card, you would have to move your arm, spreading it faster. The idea is how much of your body has been envenomed, not necessarily the volume primarily injected, though subsequent stings would add to the mix.
Secondly, if you get stung by a scorpion, moving doesn't ADD venom, so it doesn't make sense for a dead scorpion to be adding venom to you.
Post by: Dm on July 17, 2013, 11:57:32 am
I dun see anything wrong with that.
It's a fantasy game.
Post by: Leodip on July 17, 2013, 01:14:00 pm
Post by: Rutarete on July 17, 2013, 05:45:02 pm
Secondly, if you get stung by a scorpion, moving doesn't ADD venom, so it doesn't make sense for a dead scorpion to be adding venom to you.That's because there is no dead scorpion adding poison. Otherwise we would have a card like Scorpion's Ghost: Poisons opponent 2 on death :P
Maybe think of the Neurotoxin poison counter as representative of the effect on your body, or how much pain you're in, or something similar. The more actions taken create more pain, like trying to move a broken arm.
Post by: ginandtonic on July 17, 2013, 06:25:39 pm
You can often outrush the Neurotoxin effect, or heal to offset it.
It also makes you play smarter once you are infected...do you really need to keep setting down pillars later in the game? Does playing a creature that will damage my opponent (for example) 5 every turn make it worthwhile to play and take one more poison? Etc.
Getting a Dune Scorpion, powered up, early in the game can spell disaster for slow-moving decks, but all decks have their weaknesses.
Post by: Marsu on July 17, 2013, 07:09:50 pm
Does a creature regain its initial health when the purple Nymph that antimattered it dies?
Otherwise /sign @ Dm.
Post by: IreCreeper on August 07, 2013, 01:54:57 am
If a scorpion stings you and you kill it with a broomstick, does the "effect" of the poison go away?As much as I hate this card, the above quote makes perfect sense.
Same logic applies here. The only difference is that in here, the "poison" will continue to rack up as you play cards. And that's totally fine because that's.. (message ends suddenly)
Post by: Pyrodinium on August 07, 2013, 03:06:07 am
There's a lot of cards that can counter Dune Scorpion. Purify can totally counter its effects. Besides, it needs to use another card to deliver it's sting.
I like the discussion on the effects of the poison but I really think the Elements world has different laws than ours. For starters we have the Fire Nymph who can kill monsters by making them REALLY angry and the Otyugh who can eat Ruby Dragons with ease but will choke on small Voodoo Dolls. Oh, and don't get me started on :entropy
Post by: ddevans96 on August 07, 2013, 03:20:44 am
I like the discussion on the effects of the poison but I really think the Elements world has different laws than ours. For starters we have the Fire Nymph who can kill monsters by making them REALLY angry and the Otyugh who can eat Ruby Dragons with ease but will choke on small Voodoo Dolls. Oh, and don't get me started on :entropy
This point is completely valid. In reality, though, I feel that Dune Scorpion is actually one of the most thematically solid cards in the game when compared to the real world (as Dm and others implied).
Post by: Pyrodinium on August 07, 2013, 03:33:15 am
I like the discussion on the effects of the poison but I really think the Elements world has different laws than ours. For starters we have the Fire Nymph who can kill monsters by making them REALLY angry and the Otyugh who can eat Ruby Dragons with ease but will choke on small Voodoo Dolls. Oh, and don't get me started on :entropy
This point is completely valid. In reality, though, I feel that Dune Scorpion is actually one of the most thematically solid cards in the game when compared to the real world (as Dm and others implied).
I don't want to be the party pooper so just for fun, I'll give my 2 :electrum on the venom.
Yes, the toxin can kill you even if the animal in question is already dead. It's its own entity once it's in your bloodstream.
:death or "vanilla" toxin is like nature's hemotoxic venom. The venom breaks down its victim's tissues and blood vessels but the damage is localized. If some vital organs gets digested or blood loss is too much, then you're good as dead.
:time toxin on the other hand is like neurotoxic venom. The venom attacks the nerves and cause paralysis so the damaged is systemic. If your respiratory system is paralyzed, then you're good as dead.
Now why does cards like Deadly Poison enhances Dune Scorps toxin? My theory is that by weakening the blood vessels, the hemotoxic venom prevents the body from raising antibodies to fight the more deadly neurotoxin.
Post by: ddevans96 on August 07, 2013, 03:38:24 am
Post by: Plastica on August 07, 2013, 05:59:20 pm
For most decks, neurotoxin early-on is a death sentence, and the reasoning behind it doesn't even make complete sense.
Post by: BeefSupreme on August 07, 2013, 07:42:30 pm
Neurotoxins absolutely do not function or worsen based on how much you move/squirm/(play cards). In reality, neurotoxins prohibit movement and their effects worsen with time. Dune Scorpion's thematics would honestly be much better if it increased automatically by 1 (or 2) :time poison damage every turn. (While obviously ignoring complete paralysis [or inability to play cards])THANK you! I'd say this is one of my least favorite cards as far as theme goes. I would agree more with Plastica's interpretation of this more than any other.
For most decks, neurotoxin early-on is a death sentence, and the reasoning behind it doesn't even make complete sense.
Dm and Marsu, you can't just say that this card makes sense because this is a fantasy game..
Post by: Plastica on August 07, 2013, 07:57:49 pm
Post by: serprex on August 07, 2013, 08:23:12 pm
You can choose to ignore the thematic paralysis, but you'll be punished
Dune Scorpion is weaker than Deathstalker if you don't play cards. This not even taking into account Nightfall
Post by: CuCN on August 07, 2013, 09:17:55 pm
I believe the "fantasy-game-write-off" just isn't viable when you're discussing something as specific as neurotoxin that really does exist in the waking world.Antimatter certainly doesn't do anything in the real world like what it does in the game.
Post by: Plastica on August 07, 2013, 10:02:58 pm
When a player is inflicted with neurotoxin, they play less cards. It's as if the neurotoxin has almost "paralyzed" their handWell, if you're going to assume that an elemental being needs to move in order to play a card, would they not move when drawing a card as well?
You can choose to ignore the thematic paralysis, but you'll be punished
Dune Scorpion is weaker than Deathstalker if you don't play cards. This not even taking into account Nightfall
Antimatter certainly doesn't do anything in the real world like what it does in the game.
Quote
"In particle physics, antimatter is material composed of antiparticles, which have the same mass as particles of ordinary matter but have opposite charge..."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimatter
So Antimatter, as a spell, which is a supernatural device that is prone to symbolism, gives the creature an equal but opposite "charge" (power) but leaves the creature's "mass" (HP) as it is. This makes much more sense than a paralyzing toxin (which is not in the realms of the supernatural at all) that hurts you, yet still allows for movement. In life, neurotoxin is not more potent than other toxins, it just prohibits movement and slowly worsens over time until you die. Unless the common Dune Scorpion has magical properties, I believe it should be held to physical standards. (Unlike a spell [i.e. Antimatter])
Maybe a way to "prohibit movement" would be to reduce the chance of successful draws? Or simply find a venom/toxin that does, in fact, worsen with movement. Kind of a nit-picky topic, but neurotoxin is what it is and isn't what it isn't.
Post by: serprex on August 07, 2013, 10:43:19 pm
I put paralyze in quotes, because it metaphorically paralyzes one's hand. & by hand I meant your hand of cards, not your literal hand
I don't know why spells should have less critique than creatures
If you want Dune Scorpion nerfed, don't get off topic with realism. This topic needs to stay focused on the balance of neurotoxin (which this is really about)
What should neurotoxin's cost be? It is currently 3 :time + ~1 :rainbow (non-time) + 2 cards. The effect is non stackable
Note that Dune Scorpion gets less out of being upgraded than most cards, as 2 health isn't useful for a card whose primary purpose is to get one attack. Does this make it OP in unupped environments? Or does the unupped environment make a Dune Scorpion too slow?
Post by: Plastica on August 07, 2013, 11:41:41 pm
However, I still don't understand how your hand could be metaphorically paralyzed if you can still place them.. Or how the venom would spread to your cards in the first place.. Or the correlation between a paralyzed hand of cards and damage being dealt to the holder of said cards. This is obviously not the case. The cards are obviously not the subject of poisoning or paralysis.. We are not discussing metaphorical toxin..
A spell is less likely to be considered unrealistic in a game because spells are already supernatural. They do not claim, in the first place, to be of scientific nature. There is, however, a science behind toxins.
I don't see why changing neurotoxin's mechanic to something more realistic and fitting can't also be the same solution to balancing or "nerfing" Dune Scorpion. I am indeed offering ideas that realistically nerf this card as well as putting in my two cents regarding the unrealistic mechanic that is currently in place.
However, If I'm discouraged by you from posting such opinions on this topic, could you please direct me to the section of the forums that is meant for such a discussion?
Post by: serprex on August 08, 2013, 12:51:43 am
However, If I'm discouraged by you from posting such opinions on this topic, could you please direct me to the section of the forums that is meant for such a discussion?
Good point. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be one. But it's important to realize a forum topic will have a difficult time maintaining two topics (the realism of Dune Scorpion and the balance of Dune Scorpion) so you're going to have to pick what you want this topic to be about. Saying that adding realism can be done in conjunction with nerfing Dune Scorpion presupposes the imbalance of Dune Scorpion, which hasn't been demonstrated in this topic
While this board's guideline suggests only creating one topic per card, it may be best if two topics are opened on Dune Scorpion: one to determine the balance of the current Dune Scorpion, and one to brainstorm realistic neurotoxin effects
Post by: Keolino on August 08, 2013, 08:47:27 am
Looking at it from another point of view (card combinations i normally use):
Deathstalker + Nighfall = 2 poison damage per turn
Forest Scorpion + Adrenalin = 2 poison damage per turn
Dune Scorpion + Momentum or Adrenaline = 1 poison damage per turn + 1 for each card
3 Turns:
3 Death Stalkers + 1 Nightfall = damage: 27, Poison: 18
3 Forest Scorpion, 2 Adrenaline = damage: 42 Poison: 15
3 Dune Scorpion, 3 Blessing (if you don´t play cards) = damage: 33 Poison: 9
3 Dune Scorpion, 3 Blessing (if you play 3 cards after each of his turns, (9 cards total)) = damage: 42 Poison: 18
3 Dune Scorpion, 3 Momentum (if you play 3 cards after each of his turns, (9 cards total)) = damage: 24 Poison: 18
------> Well, they have pretty much the same power. And every one of them gets stronger in about the same amount (even if you play 3! cards per turn) And here i even asumed that you draw 3 of the buff cards for the dune scorpion. (well, if you use anyone of them in a stall deck, they all get annoying, not only the dune scorpion)
Post by: Plastica on August 08, 2013, 11:53:40 pm
Good point. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be one. But it's important to realize a forum topic will have a difficult time maintaining two topics (the realism of Dune Scorpion and the balance of Dune Scorpion) so you're going to have to pick what you want this topic to be about. Saying that adding realism can be done in conjunction with nerfing Dune Scorpion presupposes the imbalance of Dune Scorpion, which hasn't been demonstrated in this topic
While this board's guideline suggests only creating one topic per card, it may be best if two topics are opened on Dune Scorpion: one to determine the balance of the current Dune Scorpion, and one to brainstorm realistic neurotoxin effects
I honestly don't feel that will be necessary at all. Considering the massive unlikelihood that anybody's suggested changes will be implemented into the game, I feel that no particular suggestion or brand of suggestion takes precedence over another. The section of the forum that this topic is contained within reads: "Game Suggestions and Feedback Do you have an idea on how to improve Elements? Please post it here." I believe the posts that you claimed do not belong here may just be right at home. There are no existing rules regarding any of your complaints against the content of my posts. However, there is, as you mentioned, a rule against two topics being created regarding duplicate cards. If you would like to create this mentioned topic, that is completely up to your own discretion; but on that note, I will not be. It is not my decision to "pick what I want this topic to be about," as you said. I will, however, continue to offer my personal feedback in the Game Suggestions and Feedback section. I'm sorry if this offends you in any manner, or makes it any more difficult for you to follow this thread.
Unfortunately, I am not too skilled at equations and comparisons (as you seem to be); so, yes, my contribution lies in "brainstorming". I guarantee that there is room for both of our brands of suggestions (that will most likely not change a thing) in the infinite space of this one thread.
Post by: reeper on April 18, 2015, 07:31:25 am
This is an incredibly overpowered ability. If someone can apply it within the first 3 or 4 turns they are basically guaranteed to win courtesy of the fact that each card played makes the poison effect deadlier. Purify is the only counter to it, so if you don't have a water deck you are screwed.
Post by: rob77dp on April 18, 2015, 07:38:17 am
(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/DuneScorpion.png) (http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/DuneScorpionUpgraded.png)
This is an incredibly overpowered ability. If someone can apply it within the first 3 or 4 turns they are basically guaranteed to win courtesy of the fact that each card played makes the poison effect deadlier. Purify is the only counter to it, so if you don't have a water deck you are screwed.
This is a common position of ire at both poison types. However, healing cards also oppose Neuro quite well. Permanents such as Sanctuary (+4 healing at the penalty of +1 neuro), Shard of Gratitude (+3 / +5 at penalty of 1 neuro), and of course Purify and several other forms of healing (Miracle, Stone Skin, Heal, Empathic Bond...).
Many of those 'counters' are not Water.
Also, 3 or 4 turns in against some decks the game is 2 or 3 turns from being over if the Neuro user does not have proper defenses going.
TL;DR -- I would disagree that Neurotoxin is overpowered.
Post by: ddevans96 on April 18, 2015, 07:46:55 am
If someone can apply it within the first 3 or 4 turns they are basically guaranteed to win...
First of all, to even apply it in the first 3-4 turns, you are forced into a duo with light, time, entropy, gravity, or water, or maybe a rainbow. None of these are gamebreaking combos.
Also, neurotoxin is slow. While damage does begin to pile up, 3-4 turns is a lot against a rush deck, which will easily beat it before neurotoxin gets too bad, and so will a reasonably fast domination deck. Stalls also fare well against it, because massive amounts of healing, especially light wih miracles and sanctuaries, can slow it down considerably. Neurotoxin is very difficult to use effectively without some form of control to stop from being outrushed, and/or some form of additional damage to make it good against stalls.
One final thing to consider against neurotoxin is not playing any more cards than you actually need. Excess pillars can be kept in hand longer, and prioritize higher-cost, higher-damage creatures over lower ones. These will slow the poison and give you a bit more time.
Don't get me wrong, Dunes are powerful, but they are far from insta-win.
Post by: Basman-1453 on April 18, 2015, 11:35:36 am
Post by: andretimpa on April 18, 2015, 01:57:34 pm
Post by: omegareaper7 on April 18, 2015, 03:01:57 pm
(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/DuneScorpion.png) (http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/DuneScorpionUpgraded.png)Yes. So overpowered, that is why no dune scorpion deck is remotely dominate right now!
This is an incredibly overpowered ability. If someone can apply it within the first 3 or 4 turns they are basically guaranteed to win courtesy of the fact that each card played makes the poison effect deadlier. Purify is the only counter to it, so if you don't have a water deck you are screwed.
But seriously, like others have said, stop acting like its overpowered. Its slow, and none of the duos are particularly amazing. Loses pretty bad to both control decks and rushes without a proper form of stall, which only sundials really provide.
Post by: reeper on April 24, 2015, 06:03:56 pm
I do find neurotoxin annoying do to the fact that if it hits early it can prevent you from being able to play and at one point thought it should be removed but I found it can be countered fairly well with health regenerating cards like empathetic bond/feral bond, purify, or druidic staff. I still don't like it and wouldn't mind dune scorpion having the same ability as the other scorpions, but it can still be countered easily enough.
I will admit, if I made a new topic against a card every time I lost due to it, I'd be banned faster than you can blink, but this isn't one of those instances. I actually won the game I realized this in, but Neurotoxin needs to be nerfed. I had about 21 poison on me by the end of the game, about ten turns, due to two cards my opponent had, even after I stole his Procrastination. Sure, use enough cards and you can get more poison even faster on your opponent, but the amount of poison isn't my issue; it's how few cards my opponent had to use to get that much poison so quickly. Sadly, I have no current ideas of how to nerf it without making it completely ineffective, but I am very open to suggestions.
Post by: dawn to dusk on April 24, 2015, 08:45:18 pm
ALL THE DESYNCHS
Post by: omegareaper7 on April 25, 2015, 02:29:54 am
Having the same abilities as the others would make it borderline useless. All of its current synergies already are nothing special, and both forest and deathstalker are both pretty lack luster.I do find neurotoxin annoying do to the fact that if it hits early it can prevent you from being able to play and at one point thought it should be removed but I found it can be countered fairly well with health regenerating cards like empathetic bond/feral bond, purify, or druidic staff. I still don't like it and wouldn't mind dune scorpion having the same ability as the other scorpions, but it can still be countered easily enough.
I will admit, if I made a new topic against a card every time I lost due to it, I'd be banned faster than you can blink, but this isn't one of those instances. I actually won the game I realized this in, but Neurotoxin needs to be nerfed. I had about 21 poison on me by the end of the game, about ten turns, due to two cards my opponent had, even after I stole his Procrastination. Sure, use enough cards and you can get more poison even faster on your opponent, but the amount of poison isn't my issue; it's how few cards my opponent had to use to get that much poison so quickly. Sadly, I have no current ideas of how to nerf it without making it completely ineffective, but I am very open to suggestions.
Post by: Espithel on April 25, 2015, 02:54:36 am
To elaborate, I find dune scorpion quite skill testing. The trick to it is to maximise damage/healing output, focusing on as little else as one can. RT-resistant critters are important, as well as a few doses of well timed, well-placed PC to deal with eternities and sundials.
It's difficult, yes. But playing well will overcome dune scorpion - there aren't too many decks that are specifically weak to dune (The ones that are are generally weak to RT, not dune.)
Post by: dworthy on June 04, 2015, 12:59:34 pm
Post by: omegareaper7 on June 04, 2015, 06:47:18 pm
Dune Scorpion Decks are both tough to play and to counter. The card's fine as it is.Tough to counter? Without major stall power, just rush them. With it, healing is still an issue. Without cards like sacrifice or freeze or even just sundials, poison in general just isn't that good.
Post by: Espithel on June 04, 2015, 06:52:15 pm
Again, anything that beats RT beats dune, and anything that loses to RT loses against dune. RT is what makes dune really good.
Post by: Ginyu on June 04, 2015, 07:20:57 pm
Post by: Zyardran on June 04, 2015, 07:22:31 pm
What's the point of running three polls in this thread?i think it's so the poster has an idea of what other people in the community think.
Post by: AD TienzuStorm on June 04, 2015, 07:36:44 pm
What's the point of running three polls in this thread?i think it's so the poster has an idea of what other people in the community think.
I think he means as to why all three polls have the same question just with some different answers rather than one big concise poll.
Post by: Espithel on June 04, 2015, 07:40:26 pm
Post by: dworthy on June 05, 2015, 09:45:33 am
Post by: dawn to dusk on June 05, 2015, 11:28:08 am
kinda lousy when you think about it
Post by: Basman-1453 on June 05, 2015, 12:28:38 pm
1 extra damage a turn against you for up to 10 damage against your opponent
kinda lousy when you think about it
Thus what Frozen said. Neuro, alone, doesn't make much impact without some CC that accompanies it. Reverse Time is what makes it a problem for most newbies (or, maybe, noobies?).
Post by: omegareaper7 on June 05, 2015, 01:11:10 pm
Reverse time is part of the problem, so is newbies having bad decks and crying wolf all the time.1 extra damage a turn against you for up to 10 damage against your opponent
kinda lousy when you think about it
Thus what Frozen said. Neuro, alone, doesn't make much impact without some CC that accompanies it. Reverse Time is what makes it a problem for most newbies (or, maybe, noobies?).