[Official] Dimensional Shield | Phase Shield

[timetock]

well mono aether will always be extremely strong thanks to dim shield. But then, mono just ignores it

Let's see the result of gravity and aether...

[Higurashi]

There's little point in comparing weak PvP Elements to Aether. Gravity falls to Lobo and can't stop Aether's offence. You'd need craptons of healing AND CC to endure Psiontal or SoW Dragons, or craptons of healing AND a Fire Shield/Thorn Carapace to endure Immortals/Phase Dragons. The problem is, even if you build to counter classic MA, Aether can pack Fractal+target and overwhelm the other side of your defence that you couldn't cover. It can even Lobo its own Psions if you decide to waste card space on Reflectives, which does happen in PvP, but rarely for good reason (Reflectives are just plain weak), or just not play SoW on its Dragons.

Would 2 turn Dims balance things out? Yes. Would it STILL be the strongest shield thanks to its Elements' power? Yes. Would all monos except Darkness, Fire and Death still lose the majority of games? Absolutely. This much has been shown in PvP records when people only pack as few as 3 Dims. There's little point in arguing whether something as helpless as monotime could win more than 10% of games out of sheer luck because people have already run into this many times in PvP Events and Tournaments. There already IS empirical data, as majo just provided an example of. We've moved beyond theory at that point.

[storyteller]

but the reality is, its balanced in the overall game. it is only user created tournaments that bind people into a system where it is overpowered.

[Higurashi]

That's not really the problem most present here. The thing most seem to have issue with is that it forces the usage of some cards, which in turn also makes many monos subpar.

As for it being balanced in, say, Leagues, I would agree it is. The problem, again, is that the -reason- it's balanced is because people -have- to expect it and pack counters. Therefore, in League, you don't see many monolife's, for instance. If any.

So it comes down to how the game is balanced from a design perspective. Do we want monotime to have 5% chance against MA? Do we want super-hard counters like that? Most don't.

[storyteller]

I think there will always be a few cards somewhat better than others. aether happens to have a strong shield. I personally pack momentums and a few grav pends to counter all shields, in almost every deck I make, so it doesnt bother me. Next people will be saying Eagle Eye is too powerful or that Fire Lance is too string, because its better than drain life. you have to expect shields in the game and that some shields are strong. I think it would be better to build up some of the other shields, instead of worrying about weakening Aether

[Higurashi]

Momentum still fails to Lobo.

Fire Bolt is borderline OP, but it doesn't shut down entire decks that do not have a specific type of card (PC or -viable- shield bypass). Same with OE.
There is one other card you can compare Dims to in terms of how it shuts down creature decks without PC. Eternity. Couple that with a shield or healing and it's almost equivalent of how Dims works. SoSa is a good comparison as well, but because it drains all non- , it doesn't allow for extremely high total offence like Fractal does.

You seem to repeatedly miss the main argument here. If you -have- to pack a way around a card to win with common strategies and those ways are limited in quantity and variety, there's a problem with game balance. It forces you to do something if you want to win. If you pack those pends and Momentums in a pure rush it's going to lose to a pure rush that didn't pack them, because they're wasted space. Nice against Ice Shields and all, but.. Dims are in Aether.

[storyteller]

no, I pack a few cards that counter all shields, a major component of the game, dim shield is just as weak to them as every other.

[Cthulhu]

Most shields don't stop all damage and can be gotten around easily in all colors.

[storyteller]

most shields dont:

add cumulative poison damage
turn dragons and high level creatures into skeletons
freeze some creatures for 3 turns
lock creatures in a time bubble
deal 1 damage to the creature


dim shield is weak, otherwise, why do people use other shields at all?

dim shield, in the meta game are fine

you need to stop comparing it to mono decks, the reality is, you can use any card in any deck. splashing a few cars doesnt really affect a mostly pure deck. dim shield has plenty of counters and ways to avoid it, its fine as is.

[Keolino]

most shields dont:

add cumulative poison damage
turn dragons and high level creatures into skeletons
freeze some creatures for 3 turns
lock creatures in a time bubble
deal 1 damage to the creature


dim shield is weak, otherwise, why do people use other shields at all?

dim shield, in the meta game are fine

you need to stop comparing it to mono decks, the reality is, you can use any card in any deck. splashing a few cars doesnt really affect a mostly pure deck. dim shield has plenty of counters and ways to avoid it, its fine as is.

It's raining cars!

Spoiler for Hidden:

Dims aren't used in splashes that much because they need too much card space (and require some pendulums to chain them) That aside, dim shields get boring pretty fast, if you use them in every deck.

But I have to agree, there are other good shields as well, which get pretty impressive once they are cuppled with some healing or CC. It doesn't hurt to have a counter against them.

[Higurashi]

dim shield is weak, otherwise, why do people use other shields at all?

What? Because it's not always the best shield to use, of course. That doesn't make it weak by any logic. It can even be because you don't want to use the you have in the deck for Dims because you have other defence and need something else from Aether, or that you don't want to use Aether at all.

dim shield, in the meta game are fine

What metagame? They're obviously not fine in restricted events, and that's a problem no matter how you spin it. It's because they're very hard counters (as already mentioned).
They're arguably not precisely OP in the upped unrestricted meta (PvP2, CL and Gold/Plat Arena), but they still hard counter a LOT of strategies which is bad for the thematic design of the game. All the same monos and duos still autolose.

you need to stop comparing it to mono decks, the reality is, you can use any card in any deck. splashing a few cars doesnt really affect a mostly pure deck. dim shield has plenty of counters and ways to avoid it, its fine as is.

No we don't. Most monos not having a chance in hell is a problem not only because of restricted events, but also for the flavour of the game. I can't blame a new guy for leaving the game after picking Life and losing to the same deck 20 times in a row. That doesn't mean we're restricting our thinking to ONLY monos. It means we're making a design argument. Please understand the difference.

Splashing does affect decks quite a bit. Shrieker rush with Momentum will lose to Shrieker rush 80% of the time. Same with Adrenafrogs, Monodeath rush, Peggy rush.. all mono and duo rushes. A Grabbow without Momentum enjoys powerful Gravity Pulls or more offensive power. If neither deck has a shield, it's very obviously worse to have cards dedicated to beating shields. Could you at least see logic here?

And again, Dim -isn't- as weak to ways around Shields as other elements. I've already mentioned one reason why, but I can add more reasons besides Lobo taking care of Momentum:
1. Aether can ramp its offence to extreme levels thanks to Fractal and resists CC this way too. This lets it kill stalls better and overpower decks that are spending card spaces on beating shields, as well as making space spent on CC less worth it.
2. Aether has mostly indestructible offence. See above.
3. Aether has strong CC. This is often coupled with Dims to render shield bypass even less useful.
4. And for the finale, Aether now has shield bypass of its own. This, again, makes its offence much more reliable than most elements. Most of the time you wouldn't even need Psion or SoW to beat Bone Wall because lots of creatures beats Bone Wall quite handily already, but Aether has Psion and SoW anyway. Just to crush all shields that Fractal or Phase Dragons couldn't already overpower (except Reflectives, though Lobo helps).

As a comparison:
Monolife will always lose to extreme CC. Add shields in there and it's even more of a counter. If Monolife splashes shield control/bypass, it won't have trouble with most shields, but it'll still die to lots of CC.

Monoaether doesn't splash and still beats both CC, shields AND counters Monolife. It also counters all other Monos except Darkness, Fire, Death and Air. Even then, a monoair UG rush with Fogs and CC STILL loses to Aether's offence in a majority of games. Similarly, Death struggles. Water has Ice Bolt and Physalia, but sadly the latter fall to Lobo. I honestly wish they didn't; that'd give it a fighting chance.

[storyteller]

then why dont I seem to have much trouble with it?

you spent a paragraph there talking about how useful splashing an extra element is, then went back and spent a paragraph talking about monos again.

heres the deal, a small group of players who made up a set of rules for their enjoyment, which restricts the use of all cards, want a card changed for their one specific type of play to be 'more balanced'. thats not good.

you then listed a third of the elements that can beat Aether, thats a good thing! it should have a set of elements that can beat it and a set that cant as easily.

almost any element, can beat almost any other element. Almost any element can beat monoaether, especially if they know they are going up against it. out gun, outlast and out manuever. dim shield is great, but its not this game killing auto win you make it out to be.

name any element, Ill tell you how to beat a dim chain with it.