[Official] Dimensional Shield | Phase Shield

[Espithel]

The dime should, imo, should delay the damage, not prevent it. When the chain spam ends or just a single shield itself, you get dealt all the damage you delayed. I don't think that's absurd. I don't see the absurdity- 18 turns is a lot.

If you want to make steal/deflag not as powerful, make it so the chain spam has to be ended naturally (Ie: Not destroyed) for it to delay damage.

Actually, that might put a new layer on dime. Fire/Aethers and Darkness/Aethers using PC to not be harmed.

[jawdirk]

The dime should, imo, should delay the damage, not prevent it. When the chain spam ends or just a single shield itself, you get dealt all the damage you delayed. I don't think that's absurd. I don't see the absurdity- 18 turns is a lot.

If you want to make steal/deflag not as powerful, make it so the chain spam has to be ended naturally (Ie: Not destroyed) for it to delay damage.

Actually, that might put a new layer on dime. Fire/Aethers and Darkness/Aethers using PC to not be harmed.

The vast majority of the decks that get crushed by dim shield currenty have no trouble building up enough damage to kill the turn the shield chain drops. The problem is that they get killed before the shield chain drops.

[Higurashi]

Higurashi: not everyone has time for PVPing all the time however, I keep trying to consider all aspects. However, I still don't think that Dimensional Shield has too few counters. Some cards have less. But, here's another idea? What if Silence were moved to  (with a different name and artwork, maybe)? That would help the rush against not only Dimensional Shields but also against other chainable effects, like Shard of Sacrifice and Bone Wall...

Frozengaia: I don't understand your idea clearly, but getting all the damage later would be absurd. Consider a shield chain interrupted by a Steal...

Counters are often situational. What are the counters to Miracle? Silence and burst damage, e.g. Fractal or Bolts. A low quantity of counters. However, you can deal with most cards without countering them. Miracle? You just build up damage, or you Earthquake 'em. It won't prevent the first Miracle, but you probably won't see another. You can try your luck with a Discord rush too. You won't win every time, but you'll have a good chance.

What these examples show us is that a card doesn't need counters if there are ways to deal with it that are -common-. Having a deck focused on shittons of damage is very common. Pharaoh isn't a -counter- to Miracle, but it builds up a lot of damage and will often prevail over it. FFQ and all growers do the same (Forest Spirit, Lava Golem, Steamie).

Another example would be Discord. The -only- counter to that is playing a rainbow, which means there's no card counter. Sanctuary is more expensive, Stealing only works once you get the quanta, which means you've already been delayed several turns and Discord has done its job (unless you get lucky with the scramble). Bone Wall or Dim Shields are more expensive, but you do tend to win against Discord if you pack 'em. Not because they counter the card, but because they give more value as a card. In other words, it means you can deal with it. Survive it. Something that worked against Dims this last War was the upped Air Nymph. It succeeded where the older UG decks didn't thanks to being able to create enough UG's and because it gained +1 HP when upped to survive Lightnings (which is an insanely strong card in War). But Aether still won again, for the third time, something no other element has ever done. Plus it's the third time in a row (much thanks to deuce and the team, but also much thanks to Aether).

Dims face many cards you might want to call "soft counters", but they're not even that. Dealing direct damage with Poison or Bolts is not "softly" countering Dims: your Dims will still protect you from all those Phoenixes or Mummies. They will, however, give you a chance of beating someone that's packing Dims. I'm much more in favour of giving more elements unique ways to accomplish at least a 50/50 chance than just giving all elements PC. I think everyone can agree on that. Soft PC is one way of accomplishing this, but not the only one.

The only real single card counter to Dims is Pulverizer. With Deflag and Steal, you do pay less quanta than your opponent, but each single copy of Deflag or Steal vs. Dims is worth a lot less. If you run 4 Deflags or Steals, you may only draw 2 and still lose. Or you may draw 4 and still lose because they can play 6 Dims. Instant PC is a reaction card to troublesome perms like Dims, OE and Eternity, but while the perms are more expensive, you're fucked if they stay on the board because their value is much, much higher. Not to mention they're not terribly expensive anyway.

Pulverizer wrecks ∞ Dims. That's a one-card counter, and can also be run in a mono (Grav mark and Earth pends). There are two more proper counters, but they require a minimum of three cards: a creature with less than 3 attack + Butterfly Effect + Quintessence and the lucky Mutation (or Elf, if you're lucky enough to keep its ability against Lobo) + creature -> mutant with steal or destroy + Quintessence. Because they require several cards, you'd better be sure your opponent has enough perms for it to be worth it, OR make sure they work anyway (denial deck with backup infinite PC).

As an aside, you might've noticed I include Lobo in a lot of arguments. While Dims provide a very polarizing problem (you either have an answer or you lose), the fact that most Dim decks pack Lobos is what makes a lot of options against Dims into non-options (BE, Momentum, etc.).

[OldTrees]

Counters are often situational. What are the counters to Miracle? Silence and burst damage, e.g. Fractal or Bolts. A low quantity of counters. However, you can deal with most cards without countering them. Miracle? You just build up damage, or you Earthquake 'em. It won't prevent the first Miracle, but you probably won't see another. You can try your luck with a Discord rush too. You won't win every time, but you'll have a good chance.

Good post.

The common definition of "counter" (different than "one-card counter") is the union of what you called "counter" and what you called "deal with without countering".

[Aneninen]

Higurashi: I see your point.

I still have the question: what if Silence were moved to  ?

Or, if there were a card with a name like "Time Out" (basicly for  ) which destroys all permanents with a timer (but, only those!) would serve as a counter for many annoying cards... (Maybe I've even read this idea somewhere here on the forum before.)

[iancudorinmarian]

Higurashi: I see your point.

I still have the question: what if Silence were moved to  ?

Or, if there were a card with a name like "Time Out" (basicly for  ) which destroys all permanents with a timer (but, only those!) would serve as a counter for many annoying cards... (Maybe I've even read this idea somewhere here on the forum before.)

There was a card like reverse "Reverse Time" that dropped every counter by one. Destroying would be quite harsh.

[andretimpa]

Higurashi: I see your point.

I still have the question: what if Silence were moved to  ?

Or, if there were a card with a name like "Time Out" (basicly for  ) which destroys all permanents with a timer (but, only those!) would serve as a counter for many annoying cards... (Maybe I've even read this idea somewhere here on the forum before.)

There was a card like reverse "Reverse Time" that dropped every counter by one. Destroying would be quite harsh.

Still weaker than direct PC. It all depends on the cost.

I think the simplest nerf for dims would be preventing it from being played over another dim, so you need to open your chain for 1 turn before resuming it.

[Vangelios]

I believe it can still be like 3 turns, but when it comes into play expected  1 turn  to take effect, such as are the creatures, including a price to enable would be fair, why not?

[montrossen]

I agree with the original debuff. It may not be TOO overpowered, but it kind of deserves an extra 2 .

[flyingcat]

Or you could add some penalty for playing, like losing X amount of hp?

[iDaire]

Remove it from the game and replace it with a shield that switch spell damage taken to healing.

[flyingcat]

But Psion and SoW creatures are the only spell damage dealers, so it's probably going to be irrelevant in most situations, unless we get more spell damage.