[Official] Dimensional Shield | Phase Shield

[jawdirk]

I disagree, I think creating other cards in other elements to achieve design balance is a better way to go than nerfing this card.

Really? Are you sure? Because that sounds totally different from what you've been saying previously.

[CuCN]

I disagree, I think creating other cards in other elements to achieve design balance is a better way to go than nerfing this card.

Really? Are you sure? Because that sounds totally different from what you've been saying previously.

I think this is consistent with what he's been saying.

[jawdirk]

I disagree, I think creating other cards in other elements to achieve design balance is a better way to go than nerfing this card.

Really? Are you sure? Because that sounds totally different from what you've been saying previously.

I think this is consistent with what he's been saying.

I agree. In fact, I would go as far as to say that he hasn't added anything new.

[Higurashi]

At this point it comes down to you not wanting to change the current meta, but instead you want to wait until new counters arrive. That's simply a difference in methods and can be seen as completely rational.

As I mentioned here. The design problem remains however, regardless of balance. That's not an issue for him, but that's not the general opinion. I'd like to see fun decks like Angels and Armagios have at least one shot in hell. Shutting down a majority of decks with one card is rather bad design. SoSa has the same problem. At the same time, these two cards along with Hope offers us the best chance we have to fight back against AI that have insane advantages. So how do you balance design with insane NPC's? Quite the challenge. A quick fix is to have different modes of PvP of course, and that's partially why we organize our own PvP. Perhaps a PvP1/2 mode without Shards would be an interesting addition.

Noting here I haven't actually advocated nerfing Dims game-wise. I think Psion and SoW were needless additions to an already very strong element, for instance, but I can't help but like Psion and it's not unbalanced either game-wise or design-wise at all. However, since Dims -are- unbalanced design-wise, there should be a way to fix that. Not necessarily nerf, as that means making it weaker game-wise. As I've mentioned, 2 turn Dims would still have the same design problem, so that's not fixing the problem I'm concerned with.

[storyteller]

I dont see the problem design wise. They do what they do well, and fill a niche in gameplay that offers many new strategies, I think the design of the card is great.

However, overall, I will say this game needs some balance adjustments, but the way to make those adjustments is not through nerfing a card. The game needs more cards, not the defeat of existing cards.

Now, I would see a raise in the cost of Dim shield as being an acceptable change, but I think it is secondary to adding another viable shield to aether so there are more options. Id also see adding more ways to bypass shields in other elements, or other win options.

Flat out only using mono decks to determine balance is terrible. monotime might have trouble, but a light time, or time life can deckout the dim shield chain. you can add momentum to almost any deck. impossing monoelements only is a poor way to make the case, you need to look at this card in all scenarios.

Id live to see light get a 'morale victory' of some kind, or a new form of 'honour counter' or some such. Id love to see a permanent that bypasses shields, etc.

There ar a lot more ways to fix the issues discussed here outside of crippling dim shield.

further, with new players I think dim shield teaches valuable lessons
1, no deck can beat everything
2, pack a way around shields
3, expect powerful odds stacked against you
4, think outside the box, trying only one thing will end up with you pounding your head against a wall
5, certain elements have specialties

aether may be the best at avoiding physical damage, but what has the most durability? what has the most creature control? what are other ways to win besides playing a bunch of creatures faster than the opponent, dim shield forces one to ask these questions. nerfing dimshield would reduce the impact of this card, which was designed so well, it prompts dozens of other deck ideas. dim shield, in its current form, is responsible for countless innovations inplay style and the natural development of players within the game.

dim shield in its current form promotes good design, is good design and is fundamental to the game. nerfing dim shield would harm the game on a basic underlying level,. it would create a void not easily filled by any other card. its existence all but crucial to the elements meta game.

again I say, do not nerf this wonderfully designed card.

(as for me repeating myself, so are most of the people here, not much new has been said on 30 pages or so, except for half of what I just said)

[majofa]

I dont see the problem design wise. They do what they do well, and fill a niche in gameplay that offers many new strategies, I think the design of the card is great.

However, overall, I will say this game needs some balance adjustments, but the way to make those adjustments is not through nerfing a card. The game needs more cards, not the defeat of existing cards.

Now, I would see a raise in the cost of Dim shield as being an acceptable change, but I think it is secondary to adding another viable shield to aether so there are more options. Id also see adding more ways to bypass shields in other elements, or other win options.

Flat out only using mono decks to determine balance is terrible. monotime might have trouble, but a light time, or time life can deckout the dim shield chain. you can add momentum to almost any deck. impossing monoelements only is a poor way to make the case, you need to look at this card in all scenarios.

Id live to see light get a 'morale victory' of some kind, or a new form of 'honour counter' or some such. Id love to see a permanent that bypasses shields, etc.

There ar a lot more ways to fix the issues discussed here outside of crippling dim shield.

further, with new players I think dim shield teaches valuable lessons
1, no deck can beat everything
2, pack a way around shields
3, expect powerful odds stacked against you
4, think outside the box, trying only one thing will end up with you pounding your head against a wall
5, certain elements have specialties

aether may be the best at avoiding physical damage, but what has the most durability? what has the most creature control? what are other ways to win besides playing a bunch of creatures faster than the opponent, dim shield forces one to ask these questions. nerfing dimshield would reduce the impact of this card, which was designed so well, it prompts dozens of other deck ideas. dim shield, in its current form, is responsible for countless innovations inplay style and the natural development of players within the game.

dim shield in its current form promotes good design, is good design and is fundamental to the game. nerfing dim shield would harm the game on a basic underlying level,. it would create a void not easily filled by any other card. its existence all but crucial to the elements meta game.

again I say, do not nerf this wonderfully designed card.

(as for me repeating myself, so are most of the people here, not much new has been said on 30 pages or so, except for half of what I just said)

This post tells me that I shouldn't read anymore of your posts on this subject.

[BeefSupreme]

While I don't necessarily agree or disagree on nerfing Dim Shield, I don't think that "teaching noobs that you can't beat everything" is a viable argument for this debate..

[Higurashi]

I'm glad you're finally developing on your opinion. I can only flat out disagree that it's well designed. All my years of card gaming experience just scream no. There's definitely no thinking outside the box when it comes to just beating one single card that otherwise ruins your entire strat xD
Similarly, there's a difference between being specialized, being the best and then being extremely superior to the rest.
Nor does one card equal everything. That's the issue: it's just one card.
Nor does it promote good design: instead we have to consider PC and ways around it pivotal for no other outstanding reason. Somewhat similar to the Fractal problem when designing creatures, but not nearly as extreme.
Same point applies for deckbuilding, which is another form of design.
Nor is a 3-turn Dim fundamental to the game; a 2-turn one would do the same thing. Especially now that we have SoSa you're forced to focus on counters anyway (ever wonder why Arena meta is so stale?).
Nor would it harm, it would simply make other strats more viable. The challenge of having to change your deck would still remain because other Shields (and spells) are strong and can counter you too. The difference is, not as extremely.

But hey, that's why we have competitive PvP. All card games have unbalanced stuff.

[BeefSupreme]

But hey, that's why we have competitive PvP. All card games have unbalanced stuff.

I do recall chatter in IRC the other day about a MtG card that costs thousands of dollars x)
Black Lotus, was it?

[Higurashi]

Yes, Black Lotus. Much, much worse than Dims balance-wise. Design-wise? Not so much. It enables fast "rainbow" decks, you could say, and lots of Instant shenanigans.

[storyteller]

sigh, black lotus (black)-> dark rit-> dark rit-> dark rit-> black lotus (red)-> fireball-> fork, I win 1st turn.

(there are over 10,000 MtG cards in my vault)

[Tsmuji]

Flat out only using mono decks to determine balance is terrible. monotime might have trouble, but a light time, or time life can deckout the dim shield chain. you can add momentum to almost any deck. impossing monoelements only is a poor way to make the case, you need to look at this card in all scenarios.

The problem here is what Higurashi has said many time before me, running MA you can easily stall a deck like life/light out for 18 turns + however long that deck takes to set up its damage, and easily use that time to buy multiple uses of fractal, which is one of the easiest ways to overcome healing due to the sheer amount of damage you can have coming out in one turn.

I'm also entirely open to the following being completely and utterly wrong, I don't really claim to have a clue about this stuff- I can only tell you what I've found from my experience of playing the game, but I'm not entirely sure it's a fair comparison for you to say that "imposing mono elements is a poor case" when the simple fact is 'imposing' the same restrictions on aether doesn't result in it being helpless in the same scenarios as elements like time/life/light are without a duo deck to back them up.