[Official] Cloak | Cloak

[Poker Alho]

The reason why Cloak as a mechanic is suitable for Darkness is that Darkness is also about stealth, a.k.a. Cloak and Dagger.  While I see that it could be suitable for other elements, I feel that should they deserve the mechanic at the appropriate time, there will be some flavor thrown in.

So Darkness is about lifestealing (healing), permastealing, creature control, quanta control, denial, AND deception..... Would you rather give any other Darkness trait away? There is absolutely no reason and point that one Element should have all the "good stuff" in game while some elements have only few.

darkness isnt about CC and denial >_< earth has CC and denial, entropy has CC and denial, time even as CC and denial all in 1 card (Rewind). Darkness is probably the most complete element, doesnt mean it has the best cards at all. And by deception you meant anti CC and PC and other elements achieve one or another much better than darkness can

[Alchemist]

darkness isnt about CC and denial >_< earth has CC and denial, entropy has CC and denial, time even as CC and denial all in 1 card (Rewind). Darkness is probably the most complete element, doesnt mean it has the best cards at all. And by deception you meant anti CC and PC and other elements achieve one or another much better than darkness can

deception = Cloak, that's what I meant. But it's not that much "deceptive" as it is protective. And the point of "complete element" in game of 12 elements is?
Besides, I don't know about any other perma protection besides Cloak and PA. Maybe Silence, but that's for one turn only. How would in your opinion Entropy or Light achieve perma protection better than Darkness?
I counted Darkness attributes not to show that there's an element that can have more than 1 trait/atribute (that's what you responded), than to show that Darkness has most of them, if not all, while some other elements have 2 at most. And no, I didn't say that ONLY darkness has those traits. I implied that no other element has that many traits and abilities at same time. That's why it is most complete element. Light would also be more complete if it would be given CC, PC and protection (at least PC protection). I guess that only thing Darkness still lacks is mass-effect spell.

[sunyata]

darkness is the most complete element. you prpose, rather than complete other elements, we should make this uncomplete to be comporable. Addition is better than subtraction, no nerf

Currently, too few elements have any counter to permanent control (PC). Cloak  and PA  being the main options, although a few permanents also come ready equipped with PA out of the box.  PC, on the other hand is available in many forms (and to all elements with the introduction of SoF).  PC is so ubiquitous in the game that any good deck must have some way of dealing with it.  This can be by including anti-PC cards, by not relying on permanents or by having so many of them that you exhaust the opponents PC.  However, I am sure that the metagame would be enriched by making more anti-PC cards available to more elements.  That does not mean that every element should have anti-PC or that it should look the same for each element.  Cloak is perfectly suited to darkness and should remain as it is.  The game would benefit by giving a few more elements related abilities.

As to the argument that if one element is complete, then all of them must be for the game to be balanced.  This is completely wrong.  Different elements should have different strengths.  Completeness is one such attribute, but a complete element is not necessarily stronger than an incomplete element that nonetheless has some very powerful tactics available to it.

[Alchemist]

As to the argument that if one element is complete, then all of them must be for the game to be balanced.  This is completely wrong.  Different elements should have different strengths.

My point exactly.

But this....

Completeness is one such attribute

So it's called "completeness" now, and it's an attribute? I thought it was just OP and unbalance.

[Poker Alho]

light has PC protection, or did you forgot half of its permanents are immaterial?

not all elements are balanced, complete or perfect, thus why zanzs continues to develop new cards and continues to fix some game inbalances on the OP and UP cards. Heck, maybe a third of the whole forum is all about improving the game, hunting bugs, discussing game balance and new ideas for cards. I still dont understand why the problem with darkness having a way to respond to almost all types of decks, even if that response sucks when compared to what other elements are able to do.

If you really wanna know more about this, you should contact OldTrees on the matter

[Absol]

I'm going to dump this here.

What Makes A Card Overpowered

Any or all of the following could mean a card is op:
1) High power level in relation to similar cards.
2) Cost not balanced with effect.
3) Provides easily exploited card advantage.
And just because there is a way to counter a card does not mean it is fair and balanced.


Important Quote From Gl1tch That Should Be Read Before Posting In This Section

When you look at balancing cards, you cannot look at decks, or AI, or AI level.  You can only look at cards.  All else can follow once it's balanced.

1. Cloak is balanced.
2. In the OP, you seem to agree that Cloak is balanced.
3. You seem to disagree with the theme of Cloak, because as you said, it can be "Mimicry" or "Sand Cloud". If you read again, Darkness is all about subtlety. Cloak fits this thematically.
4. Completeness does not make it OP. Compare Death, which doesn't have reliable CC nor PC. Mono Death is still a formidable force, regardless. You yourself had admitted that you didn't have any problem dealing with Cloak, which further emphasizes its non-OP-ness.
5. Fire is also complete (CC, PC, burst quanta, mass CC, strong resilient attacker, growing creatures, etc) yet Fire's playstyle is distinct enough from Darkness. Fire is about destruction, as big as it can be. Darkness is, once again, subtlety. Slow, painful death is Darkness' thing as opposed to Fire's total destruction.

[Alchemist]

Poker Alho @
I see what  semantics you'd like to use here - but it wont go, I'm sorry. You are probably referring to "each element should have an answer to most of situations". it's "most", not "all". And you are forgetting, that "each element should also have certain limitations". And the part you are not "seeing" is at question here and it goes kinda like this "number of limitations and answers should be same for all elements".

3. You seem to disagree with the theme of Cloak, because as you said, it can be "Mimicry" or "Sand Cloud". If you read again, Darkness is all about subtlety. Cloak fits this thematically.
4. Completeness does not make it OP. Compare Death, which doesn't have reliable CC nor PC. Mono Death is still a formidable force, regardless. You yourself had admitted that you didn't have any problem dealing with Cloak, which further emphasizes its non-OP-ness.

No problems with theme, and yet again - repeating the obvious - Cloak as a "Cloak" fits Darkness thematically - agree. Subtley?  Don't agree. You may call it completeness, subtley, deception, but it's clearly a protection. And as I sad for like 7 times, I will say it for the 8th time: PROTECTION thematically fits better into other elements rather than Darkness. "Cloak" is just thematical solution of putting it within Darkness. Keep in mind that with good card-art, and thematical explanation you could present Parasites as Light creatures.

And from human side - Darkness is the biggest theme that we know of. "Taking from you and giving to me" is a part of human nature. We know more about darkness than about life, gravity, death... or entropy. So it's very easy to make some card to fit Darkness - and as you see - almost imposible to take it away. Nah... what was I expecting... this is what happens when you try to rob the robbers. They get subtle

[Poker Alho]

then again, we go back to what i initially said: you think that because that's your opinion on the card, thats your perspective of the card's flavour... its just that most people agree on the card as it is right now instead of what you think about it...

[Alchemist]

then again, we go back to what i initially said: you think that because that's your opinion on the card, thats your perspective of the card's flavour... its just that most people agree on the card as it is right now instead of what you think about it...

So that's the best you can respond? What happened to all the arguments?  Funny, it's you who mentioned OldTrees. I believe that his sighnature goes like "Nothing exists that cannot be countered." And here you are - biggest conformist and authority-reliant.  I'am at least questioning things. And your argument is that "most of ppl...". If the opinion and taste of most of the people would be the only competent than we would still believe, no, we would think that Earth is a disc that floats on the water. But I don't believe that you were posting to discuss, but just wanted to win a debate...

[Poker Alho]

then again, we go back to what i initially said: you think that because that's your opinion on the card, thats your perspective of the card's flavour... its just that most people agree on the card as it is right now instead of what you think about it...

So that's the best you can respond? What happened to all the arguments?  Funny, it's you who mentioned OldTrees. I believe that his sighnature goes like "Nothing exists that cannot be countered." And here you are - biggest conformist and authority-reliant.  I'am at least questioning things. And your argument is that "most of ppl...". If the opinion and taste of most of the people would be the only competent than we would still believe, no, we would think that Earth is a disc that floats on the water. But I don't believe that you were posting to discuss, but just wanted to win a debate...

wow you are taking this way too serious... my arguments were about you saying that darkness was better than the other elements because it was more complete. I said it wasnt better because IT DOESNT actually have a response to literally everything (like quanta denial), has great counters within the other 11 elements, the other elements surpass darkness in many aspects like rush power, healing and PC... all to conclude that Darkness makes solid monos. so what? entropy makes awesome rainbows, fire does as well, gravity makes awesome duos, etc...

You also say i'm a conformist and authority-reliant... *sighs*   you know, sometimes... the majority of people are indeed right! and the people i am referring to were here in the forum discussing these same matters long before you or even me  decided to make a forum account, or do you think that suddenly all that game knowledge is nothing compared to what you know about the game?

back to the topic now... you think cloak is just a manipulation of the darkness theme to make a protection card for darkness... i will now ask you to materialize the true definition of the 12 element's theme without trying to manipulate their meanings, in order to create a complete set of cards for each of the 12, because i can assure you, ALL the existing cards in the game are simple manipulations of the words that describe the theme of their belonging element, or do you think that the true meaning of life, its true image and object is a cockatrice or a frog?

[Naesala]

then again, we go back to what i initially said: you think that because that's your opinion on the card, thats your perspective of the card's flavour... its just that most people agree on the card as it is right now instead of what you think about it...

So that's the best you can respond? What happened to all the arguments?  Funny, it's you who mentioned OldTrees. I believe that his sighnature goes like "Nothing exists that cannot be countered." And here you are - biggest conformist and authority-reliant.  I'am at least questioning things. And your argument is that "most of ppl...". If the opinion and taste of most of the people would be the only competent than we would still believe, no, we would think that Earth is a disc that floats on the water. But I don't believe that you were posting to discuss, but just wanted to win a debate...

Alchemist, I have seen you post many times in many places on the forums. You need to calm down some and realize when the majority are against your opinion to step back an reassess yourself. You mention restating your argument over and over, perhaps if youre repeating yourself you're lacking support to convince others. Either way try not to get hostile or attack people, I know from experience that makes you're stance look weaker. You have good ideas and clearly an ambition to make the game better, this is good. Just understand.

Now, I agree that cloak is protection, however it is protection (game mechanic) caused via deception (them of dark) which gives us completion (a goal of many on the forum). There are people who say elements should have distinct lines and those who say every element should be complete. I say complete because rainbow decks are overly prevalent because they are the only way to force completion outside of dark or fire. Your opinion is contrary to mine. The only way this decision can be made is by the majority or by the developer, and right now it edges towards completeness with thematic ties.

[regen2k9]

Completeness doesn't imply that an element is OP compared to others.  For instance, consider death's success in war: death doesn't have any PC or protection!  On the other hand, darkness, a very complete element, has never won war.  (NOTE: This is NOT to take anything away from team darkness, or to make a stab at them.  I just say this to show that darkness is not OP).

Also, an element doesn't exist as an island; not all decks are monos.  Therefore, if an element that is devoid of a certain type of card can splash another color, or run more complete duo.  For instance, light lacks CC, but it has synergy with air, which does.  Also, light + aether is fantastic for stalls, and also has CC.  Furthermore, completeness does not imply that an element is OP.  Rather, that lack of completeness can allow more cards within an element to be directed towards a singular purpose, such as life gain/stall, rushing, mass CC, etc., which makes it stronger in one or two of those individual areas than an element that can work in every area.  It's like in racing games that we played as kids: the driver that was decent in every stat wasn't always the best driver to pick.  Some courses with lots of turns required a driver with lower speed and better handling, while some wide-open straight courses favored drivers with higher speed and worse handling.  I mean this, of course, to relate to deck match-ups.  While darkness is a fantastic element, I'm sure we can agree that there are non-darkness decks that can rush faster or stall longer.  Darkness CAN do both, and can excel in all styles of play and deck creation - and that's its fantastic strength - but it does not mean that this strength is OP compared to the performance of other elements within their niches.  All in all, the strength of an element does not always rest on its completeness, but rather, on other factors such as synergies, and niches.