[Official] Black Hole | Black Hole

[smuglapse]

Also, I don't understand. If it's so situational, how can it need a nerf? One would think that it would need a buff instead.

Something could be situational and OP.

Example: (http://imageplay.net/)

(I'm not saying Black Hole is or is not)

[Skydaemon]

When putting together rainbows the gravity cards that tend to be on my list are Gravity Shield (nice against some fgs), Otyugh and Charger. No Black Hole. It's an underused card that only sees light in decks like Dark Matter due to fg powers that make it useful (try the deck yourself and fail epicly) or when combined with Discord, because Discord is great against monos, it really doesn't need Black Hole to ruin monos in the first few turns.

Obviously the effect of Black Hole on itself isn't that great. A lot of rainbows use supernovas and send out their stuff right away, faster than a Black Hole can drain them. I honestly don't think it should be changed. This is as deadly to rainbows as fractal devourers is to monos/duos, or even less so, unless the rainbow just sits on it's quanta rather than saving up supernovas untill it can use it's quanta, which is actually their fault, really.

I once tried to build a duo time/grav deck around getting dune scorpions to do something.  At some point I realized it was going to have to be a stall deck of some sort and I needed healing.  For a brief moment I thought I might fix the problem with black holes.

My delusion lasted about 1 fight against either a mono or duo deck, when it became clear that the healing gain was going to be too small to be useful.  I dumped them in favor of sod's and moved on.  The deck still wasn't that hot, but ditching the black holes was an improvement. 

My attempts at finding a use for black holes have pretty much been failures (though I don't have a grav nymph).  But the same time, there's no reason for them to be as good as 3 times the strength of a nova (or 1.5 times a sn) plus at 36hp, potentially better than a sod or heal at the same time.  For that much power it would need to be equivalent in cost/power - 6 quanta for the upped version (3 for the heath, 3 for the 1.5 x anti-SN, not to mention the benefits of only using 1 card instead of 2).  There's no justification for giving all that at half the quantum price that it should cost.

However, having tried to make one, grav/time duo decks could really use some form of healing, but right now black hole isn't it.   

I see blackholes as OP quantum stealers, and underpowered healers.  I'd suggest changing black hole to take less quanta, say 24, but in return do more healing, heal a base of 20 + quanta taken (so you'd end up with 20-44 depending).  The healing is the sorely needed part for duo's like time/grav, and it needs to be reliably as good at healing as a sod to be worth bothering with (especially when there's a high chance of facing a mono/duo enemy).  At that point, black holes become worth using in certain decks on a healing basis alone, and the quantum draining is an added strategic value.

[Rooftrellen]

BH + Discord is a nasty combo that works well against non-rainbows.

But then there are two cards that can be nerfed, not just one, so why not nerf discord instead?

Say that discord can now only change quanta from a single type on its attack.  Would this fix the problem without touching black hole?

Thus black hole could keep its ability as a rainbow killer and the two cards together could be made less powerful.

Of course, and this is just me, I find the long term quanta control of pest/fractal to give me more of a scare than discord/black hole.

Are there even many cards that aren't too strong if we go hunting for combos?  Gravity shield + almost any buff = monsters that can't touch you.  Steam machine + shard of readiness = free +3 attack every turn (+4, but since one wears off, only 3 stay long term per use).  From what I understand voodoo doll and parallel universe make for a nightmarish combo, as well.

But, then again, I would also likely claim someone with pulverizer and black hole would likely be in a better situation than someone with a discord and black hole, even though its not exactly an amazing combo.

What's more, the BH/discord combo won't really hurt a non-rainbow much more than a discord alone.  If I am running mono earth, once my quanta has been made into air, what do I care if you drain it or not?  You get more health, but since I am running mono earth, I have a card that can get me 50 health, which is quite a bit better than 36.

But then, that is my point with the combo being "bad" for non-rainbows.  All the damage comes from the discord mixing the quanta, not the BH draining up to 33 quanta I would never have used anyway, and likely not the extra health, which will likely be forgotten in the long run, unless the game was based on that health gained.  Even then, there are other cards that could heal, as well.

It seems like a stretch to say BH is too strong because of a combo that doesn't do much more than one card alone, anyway, particularly when that one card is not the card in question.

Not as much as many of the replies, but, still, it strikes me as a bit odd to have a way that a card works well against non-rainbows involve a card that works well against non-rainbows.

It's like saying discord is great against rainbow decks because in a combo with BH, it will heal a lot and drain a lot of quanta.  It's true, but its not a case for discord being OP.

[Kuross]

Just a little FYI- the reason Discord/BH works well together is that Discord will only shuffle so much of your main quanta source before it becomes useless against a mono or duo quanta deck. This is because once you have shuffled enough quanta all over the place, that shuffled quanta gets shuffled back into the original location it was removed from. BHs negate this to a large degree because since it removes the shuffled quanta it allows Discord to continue shuffling quanta out of the primary quanta slots. Ironically, Discord/BH works better on non-rainbow decks for quanta lockdown than vs rainbow just due to SNs.

Also, Discord/BH working together is fun because it's  /  which opens up many fun deck ideas better than the standard  /  pest decks do with regard to quanta denial.

[doomeister]

I think the best way to fix this card is to make it drain 1 quanta from every element, so its good against rainbows and then a certain amount of quanta (maybe 8 or more?) so its useful against mono decks aswell, but not overpowered against either.

[tyranim]

black hole is what makes dark matter so INCREADIBLY hard to beat. it completely nulls supernovas, AND it takes an extra quanta from each. then he says "lets add a little insult to injury" and throws out a grav nymph.

[guolin]

it completely nulls supernovas

How is that a bad thing for the balance of the game? Now, if DM used Entropy and Discords (thus, RoL/Hope would either die before Fratal can be played or deck-out), it would be bad, but he doesn't.

[Rooftrellen]

Just a little FYI- the reason Discord/BH works well together is that Discord will only shuffle so much of your main quanta source before it becomes useless against a mono or duo quanta deck. This is because once you have shuffled enough quanta all over the place, that shuffled quanta gets shuffled back into the original location it was removed from. BHs negate this to a large degree because since it removes the shuffled quanta it allows Discord to continue shuffling quanta out of the primary quanta slots. Ironically, Discord/BH works better on non-rainbow decks for quanta lockdown than vs rainbow just due to SNs.

Also, Discord/BH working together is fun because it's  /  which opens up many fun deck ideas better than the standard  /  pest decks do with regard to quanta denial.

The use of BH will take some quanta, and, then, make it more likely that discord takes quanta from the main element(s).

However, we're still talking about a very specific 2 card combo, and, again, if we are to do this, we are likely to find several cards that appear to need a nerf.

I would consider colossal dragons and fire nymphs more than a little overwhelming, probably more so than discord/BH because PC is much easier than CC of a 20+ HP creature.  Does that mean the colossal dragon needs a nerf, since its nearly impossible to kill and can be boosted?  I would say just as much as BH needs nerfed because its nearly impossible to stop it, and can be boosted, so to speak, with discord.

Discord, with or without the help of some form of quantum drain will quickly reach a point where it won't be terribly effective.  Unless you mix it with fractal pests, the mono deck will end up producing too much quanta at some point, and the quanta scramble will fail to be effective.  Even with after BH, it won't take long for the quanta mixing to be ineffective against all but the biggest spells and creatures.  Sure, you can BH again, but if you have me nearly dead and I use siphon life a few times, you won't say its OP...you will realize that my deck was made in a way that allowed me to use multiple spells to delay you.

Why is it wrong if an equal amount of deck space is taken up by another spell that delays you in a different way?  Sure, BH probably did more because of the healing and quantum drain, but then, it was with discord, while the life gain was one card alone.

Unless we start talking about combos, BH is only good against rainbows.  If we start talking about combos, we can find a lot more scary than some quantum drain and health restoration.

[Kuross]

Simple response- If a card has a home in a combo that is neither OP or UP, then I see no reason to adjust the card one way or the other. Any response or adjustment then has the potential to push it too OP or too UP.

I hear a lot of people talk about how BH is OP and sometimes I hear it is UP. I figure since BH seems to fall in between both arguments, it's just fine as it is.

[Fallower]

it completely nulls supernovas

How is that a bad thing for the balance of the game? Now, if DM used Entropy and Discords (thus, RoL/Hope would either die before Fratal can be played or deck-out), it would be bad, but he doesn't.

If he did use entropy and discords he'd probably be unbeatable.
But then again that wasn't exactly related to the topic. ><

BH falls between the two arguments because of how situational it is. If you know that the opponent has a rainbow, pack some black holes and he'll be dead. There is almost no way for a rainbow to counter a black hole deck if I am not wrong.

[tyranim]

there is, SUPER QUANTA GAIN!!!!!! thats really the only way to counter it (correct me if im wrong)

[ratcharmer]

I think the best way to fix this card is to make it drain 1 quanta from every element, so its good against rainbows and then a certain amount of quanta (maybe 8 or more?) so its useful against mono decks aswell, but not overpowered against either.

I like this idea in general, but I think cutting the total drain from 36 to 20 is a bit too much. Maybe make it drain 2 from each element then 6 random quanta?

It should still be most powerful against rainbows, since they sort of need something to smite them, but this would make it possible for a rainbow to beat it. It would also make it a viable card against mono decks, so more people could use it in their decks.