[Official] Black Hole | Black Hole

[Terroking]

Life gain's not the problem. Speed is the problem. Six black holes with gravity towers and even a mono deck will feel the pain. There's nothing worse than getting your end-of-turn quanta only to have them all taken.

How about this: make it work like unstable gas, so it comes into play and needs to be activated. That way, the other player gets one round to deal with it.

This is my problem with the card.

Frankly, the life gain isn't usually too much of a game-changer as if you're running Rainbow you've probably already lost and if you're not then it's a measly 3, which will very rarely actually matter.

My problem, though, is that it can essentially delay your opponent by a turn (In early game) while you can still do whatever you want, provided you've got enough Towers to keep up with the cost (Which you hopefully will, considering the fact that you're deck is built around this).

Admittedly, it's not so much of a problem for mono-decks, seeing as it drains on a 1:1 ratio with it's cost, but it suddenly becomes 2:1 if your opponent is a duo deck (Which are a lot more common than monos) and can often be a huge game-changer.

My 2 cents.

[ratcharmer]

I have a proposal:

Instead of out-and-out nerfing black hole, could we consider making changes to it that are a trade off?

As an example, make it so black hole drains a max of 28 (just picked numbers more or less at random, we can change it) quanta, but if it drains less than 10, it will keep draining from pools it already hit until it reaches 10 drained.

Black hole would still be most useful against rainbows, but not quite as devastating, but it would then be less situational, and could be useful against monos and duos

[Panurge]

that card is an absurd, either the actual efect under quantums, either the life gain, and even the cost.
nerf this card!

[jmdt]

that card is an absurd, either the actual efect under quantums, either the life gain, and even the cost.
nerf this card!

That's a pleasant first post.  Would you like to explain your reasoning?

[catalyzeme]

Black Holes CAN be devastating, but I don't think it's overpowered just because it almost never provides both quanta denial AND healing, unless whoever its being used against has an extremely bizarre, low-quanta rainbow deck. Even against my rainbow rush decks, if a black hole is used later (after I've dealt 30+ damage and it's actually providing good healing), the quanta denial is pretty insignificant. It's really only good for quanta denial against a rainbow deck in the first 1 or 2 turns, and at that point, it's probably not healing very much. It's a versatile card, but it's very, very hard to use to it's full potential (without playing a very expensive gravity nymph to use it once per turn), which is why I don't think it's overpowered. Besides, in MOST games, where the opponent isn't rainbow, it's only going to take away 6-9 quanta.

It has a situation where it is overpowered, but only when the player using it has lost a bunch of life AND their opponent has a rainbow deck AND their opponent has few of each quantum and still needs them (even though they've already dealt a bunch of damage).

Almost all of the time, though, Black Holes provide just a small boost. I think it's in line with Phase Shield and Wings, where they can be devastating if you are facing the right opponent, but a lot of the time they will be ineffective. It's a trade-off.

I think Black Hole is balanced.

[guolin]

Someone suggested sucking the caster's own quanta too - it won't affect mono-Grav too much, but it's a start.

[Sengiratolom]

make it suck 12 random quanta no matter the oponents pools, then the card has its uses against all kinds of decks=1 turn slow, keep the current healing effect.
With that fix, we'd solve both the "uselessness" of BH against monos and the sheer OPness it has against multis, as the more elements you use, the more turns 1 BH takes away from you.

[jmdt]

make it suck 12 random quanta no matter the oponents pools, then the card has its uses against all kinds of decks=1 turn slow, keep the current healing effect.
With that fix, we'd solve both the "uselessness" of BH against monos and the sheer OPness it has against multis, as the more elements you use, the more turns 1 BH takes away from you.

If it sucked 12 random quanta, It would be seriously OP against monos.  Sucking 12 quanta for a mono is much worse than what the currect suck 3 from each element does to a rainbow.  How many times does a mono get 13 towers out to fight against such.   Many monos run ~ 10 towers total.

[ratcharmer]

make it suck 12 random quanta no matter the oponents pools, then the card has its uses against all kinds of decks=1 turn slow, keep the current healing effect.
With that fix, we'd solve both the "uselessness" of BH against monos and the sheer OPness it has against multis, as the more elements you use, the more turns 1 BH takes away from you.

If it sucked 12 random quanta, It would be seriously OP against monos.  Sucking 12 quanta for a mono is much worse than what the currect suck 3 from each element does to a rainbow.  How many times does a mono get 13 towers out to fight against such.   Many monos run ~ 10 towers total.

I was sort of trying to get to a compromise between these two with my idea, although in light of jmdt's post a 10 quanta minimum is too high, maybe 6 or 8?

[TheonlyrealBeef]

When putting together rainbows the gravity cards that tend to be on my list are Gravity Shield (nice against some fgs), Otyugh and Charger. No Black Hole. It's an underused card that only sees light in decks like Dark Matter due to fg powers that make it useful (try the deck yourself and fail epicly) or when combined with Discord, because Discord is great against monos, it really doesn't need Black Hole to ruin monos in the first few turns.

Obviously the effect of Black Hole on itself isn't that great. A lot of rainbows use supernovas and send out their stuff right away, faster than a Black Hole can drain them. I honestly don't think it should be changed. This is as deadly to rainbows as fractal devourers is to monos/duos, or even less so, unless the rainbow just sits on it's quanta rather than saving up supernovas untill it can use it's quanta, which is actually their fault, really.

[ratcharmer]

The "save you supernova's" strategy CAN work, but your opponent having this card makes quantum towers all but useless. Sometimes it can even be hard to count on getting the 2 you need to play black hole though. The problem is that this then causes Entropybows to be the only even potentially viable rainbow if this card is in play.

The compromise buff/nerf for black hole could cure it on multiple levels. If it was a viable option to play against more deck types more people would consider putting it in their decks. This could actually end up making the play environment worse for rainbows, because while they would stand more of a chance against black hole, they would also encounter it more often.

[midg3333]

How about if it heals the opponent instead/as well (not sure which would be more balanced, but probably healing both players). This way, the delay doesn't hurt the opponent as much because they are healed as compensation. If this was the case, then probably reduce the healing at least slightly (otherwise it would be pretty much useless) and make some sort of rule where it drains extra of the highest quantum type in the quantum pool (a bit like the inverse of cremation). This would make it more powerful against monos, but the healing would make it not quite so good for a rush. It would also be less powerful against rainbows, but the increased versatility would make it used more often, as somebody has previously mentioned, and that way rainbows would face it  more often. You may argue that this change would make the card an anti-cremation card instead of anti-rainbow, but I disagree with this. Cremation decks generally don't use cremation until they can actually use the quanta (or at least, they could choose to time it like that if they say they were against a gravity deck) and the spell would heal the opponent while draining the other element quanta, not particularly useful in many of the cremation decks.