[Official] Black Hole | Black Hole

[omegareaper7]

As it is right now, BH walks all over the only viable decks in competitive play.

Um, last time i checked, rainbows weren't everything in the meta. There is also ghostmare, poison dials, immo rushes(i think) Mono entropy, all of which aren't hurt much by blackhole. That is also only accounting for upped environment.

immorush is hurt by black hole quite a bit.  so are monos really, if you spam the black hole enough or if they dont have quite enough towers.

Immo rushes are slowed  a bit, but since they are primarily fire, it doesn't hurt much aside from the healing. And as for monos, they are wasting a card slot to slow you down by an estimated half turn.

[DarkBaron12390]

I don't think you're really being honest with yourself here. Sanctuary really isn't enough of a counter, and most decks start off with about two towers in their hand. Now, a SN deck with BH completely decimates any opponent they have. I've already given you the analytical breakdown. If you're going to object, debunk the breakdown rather than issuing a hollowed opinion (i.e. back it up with an actual argument, with a turn-by-turn breakdown -- give an analysis). Even in PVP I've noticed that SNbows with BH completely shut you down, even if you're running mono. Why? Discord. You cannot counter it. At the very LEAST you need a duo with light/earth to PA your sanctuary, and even that really hurts your quantum generations. If you use pendulums you're especially susceptible, since in two turns you're fucked, as you alternate quantum generation while your opponent sucks it. Throw in a quicksand and you better autoquit. This isn't just some really powerful combination -- it's game breaking.

Look, if SN was overpowered for generating too much quantum in a brief amount of time, then BH is overpowered for sapping too much quantum in too brief a time. As I've already said, the majority of decks viable for competitive play, involving PVP, Arena and FG are at the very least duo, thus making them at least doubly more susceptible to BH and its raping.

Honestly I may be a little biased here, but one BH every two turns falls directly in line with the SN nerf. No more than 12 quanta every turn (no more than 24 quanta every two turns) and BH would mean you cannot sap more than 36 quanta in two turns. I wasn't as active as I was now when BH came out, but I can bet you it came out to hard counter SN decks, which still got nerfed anyway. And I've already given a breakdown for how it combats QT in rainbows. In order to so much as come back from the BH rape with a rainbow, you need at least 12 QT statistically (probably 9ish realistically), and this takes a lot of time to acquire. We aren't as dextrous as our FG and Plat companions. My suggestion drops our QT amount down to ~5 to overcome the BH raping, which is entirely reasonable, given most rainbows that aren't stall decks carry about 5-7 QT anyway. And as I've said a few times now, my suggestion completely parallels the SN gameplay right now.

Like a) If used more frequently than once per two turns, generate a white hole which grants the opponent 10 random quanta per turn, with 0 attack or something.

Or b) If used more than once per two turns, generate a wormhole - your opponent's towers get adrenaline for a turn and generate thrice their ordinary quanta (since you can cross vast amounts of space faster than light, hypothetically, thus equating to multiple turns).

The great thing about them both is they give back to rainbow after being utterly shat all over. Especially b), because it doesn't do much for a mono early on (when BH is most dangerous) but can really speed up a rainbow, thus strongly encouraging you not to abuse BH. And b) isn't broken at all since it only activates when you're drained of 6 (72) quanta in two turns.

[omegareaper7]

I don't think you're really being honest with yourself here. Sanctuary really isn't enough of a counter, and most decks start off with about two towers in their hand. monos frequently start with 4-5 depending on pillar count, 2 is what lower pillar counts tend to get.Now, a SN deck with BH completely decimates any opponent they have. Decimating monos? When? Only when paired with discord, again, a combo. I've already given you the analytical breakdown. If you're going to object, debunk the breakdown rather than issuing a hollowed opinion (i.e. back it up with an actual argument, with a turn-by-turn breakdown -- give an analysis). Even in PVP I've noticed that SNbows with BH completely shut you down, even if you're running mono. Why? Discord. Again, combo, not the card itself, but a paring. You cannot counter it. At the very LEAST you need a duo with light/earth to PA your sanctuary, and even that really hurts your quantum generations. If you use pendulums you're especially susceptible, since in two turns you're fucked, as you alternate quantum generation while your opponent sucks it. Throw in a quicksand and you better autoquit. This isn't just some really powerful combination -- it's game breaking.

Look, if SN was overpowered for generating too much quantum in a brief amount of time, then BH is overpowered for sapping too much quantum in too brief a time. As I've already said, the majority of decks viable for competitive play, involving PVP, Arena and FG are at the very least duo, thus making them at least doubly more susceptible to BH and its raping.

Honestly I may be a little biased here, but one BH every two turns falls directly in line with the SN nerf. A little? More like a lot. Supers were nerfed because they were ALWAYS used in rainbows. Mono gravity uses blackholes, yes. But not all rainbows use blackholes. Nerfing blackhole like you want is essentially killing it. Once every two turns? Thats worse then super nova! sure, super is limited to once a turn, thats plenty. No more than 12 quanta every turn (no more than 24 quanta every two turns) and BH would mean you cannot sap more than 36 quanta in two turns. I wasn't as active as I was now when BH came out, but I can bet you it came out to hard counter SN decks, which still got nerfed anyway. Zanz has a thing against hard counters, so i doubt that would be the case.And I've already given a breakdown for how it combats QT in rainbows. In order to so much as come back from the BH rape with a rainbow, you need at least 12 QT statistically (probably 9ish realistically), and this takes a lot of time to acquire. We aren't as dextrous as our FG and Plat companions. My suggestion drops our QT amount down to ~5 to overcome the BH raping, which is entirely reasonable, given most rainbows that aren't stall decks carry about 5-7 QT anyway. And as I've said a few times now, my suggestion completely parallels the SN gameplay right now.

Like a) If used more frequently than once per two turns, generate a white hole which grants the opponent 10 random quanta per turn, with 0 attack or something.

Or b) If used more than once per two turns, generate a wormhole - your opponent's towers get adrenaline for a turn and generate thrice their ordinary quanta (since you can cross vast amounts of space faster than light, hypothetically, thus equating to multiple turns).

The great thing about them both is they give back to rainbow after being utterly shat all over. Especially b), because it doesn't do much for a mono early on (when BH is most dangerous) but can really speed up a rainbow, thus strongly encouraging you not to abuse BH. And b) isn't broken at all since it only activates when you're drained of 6 (72) quanta in two turns.

I'm not sure you realize how huge of an impact the nerf your suggesting would have on blackhole. As i see it, it would be completely useless against anything but rainbows. And even then, still not very good.

[Absol]

TADAbow utilizes BH even against mono and duo, just to prevent specific cards from being send out. So yeah, it is powerful.
I would suggest not using it more than once per turn, just like SN. If once per two turn breaks it, then this nerf will be not so hard.

[RRQJ]

Spoiler for Hidden:

I don't think you're really being honest with yourself here. Sanctuary really isn't enough of a counter, and most decks start off with about two towers in their hand. Now, a SN deck with BH completely decimates any opponent they have. I've already given you the analytical breakdown. If you're going to object, debunk the breakdown rather than issuing a hollowed opinion (i.e. back it up with an actual argument, with a turn-by-turn breakdown -- give an analysis). Even in PVP I've noticed that SNbows with BH completely shut you down, even if you're running mono. Why? Discord. You cannot counter it. At the very LEAST you need a duo with light/earth to PA your sanctuary, and even that really hurts your quantum generations. If you use pendulums you're especially susceptible, since in two turns you're fucked, as you alternate quantum generation while your opponent sucks it. Throw in a quicksand and you better autoquit. This isn't just some really powerful combination -- it's game breaking.

Look, if SN was overpowered for generating too much quantum in a brief amount of time, then BH is overpowered for sapping too much quantum in too brief a time. As I've already said, the majority of decks viable for competitive play, involving PVP, Arena and FG are at the very least duo, thus making them at least doubly more susceptible to BH and its raping.

Honestly I may be a little biased here, but one BH every two turns falls directly in line with the SN nerf. No more than 12 quanta every turn (no more than 24 quanta every two turns) and BH would mean you cannot sap more than 36 quanta in two turns. I wasn't as active as I was now when BH came out, but I can bet you it came out to hard counter SN decks, which still got nerfed anyway. And I've already given a breakdown for how it combats QT in rainbows. In order to so much as come back from the BH rape with a rainbow, you need at least 12 QT statistically (probably 9ish realistically), and this takes a lot of time to acquire. We aren't as dextrous as our FG and Plat companions. My suggestion drops our QT amount down to ~5 to overcome the BH raping, which is entirely reasonable, given most rainbows that aren't stall decks carry about 5-7 QT anyway. And as I've said a few times now, my suggestion completely parallels the SN gameplay right now.

Like a) If used more frequently than once per two turns, generate a white hole which grants the opponent 10 random quanta per turn, with 0 attack or something.

Or b) If used more than once per two turns, generate a wormhole - your opponent's towers get adrenaline for a turn and generate thrice their ordinary quanta (since you can cross vast amounts of space faster than light, hypothetically, thus equating to multiple turns).

The great thing about them both is they give back to rainbow after being utterly shat all over. Especially b), because it doesn't do much for a mono early on (when BH is most dangerous) but can really speed up a rainbow, thus strongly encouraging you not to abuse BH. And b) isn't broken at all since it only activates when you're drained of 6 (72) quanta in two turns.

dude, you need to stop swearing.  You're not making yourself look unbiased when you're ranting like that.  Black hole is an annoying card, but from what I can tell, half your argument centers on discord.  I can tell you right now that monos are destroyed by the discord; that's the culprit in this case, not black hole.  Now, rainbows are destroyed by black hole, that's is true.  However, that hasn't stopped anyone from playing them.

Also, you say sanctuaries don't cut it because often you don't get a chance to play it.  With you're solution, however, it now becomes "black holes are pointless against rainbows because you'll get maybe one black hole off before they play sanc and make 20% of your deck useless."  Is that somehow better?  And that's not considering that it would be completely useless against monos (you'll be better off pulling early discord and rushing them down).

By the way, are you basing your experience from gold/plat?  If so, then I'm afraid your argument has very little merit.  The nature of the arena helps make certain cards become way more annoying and OP than usual.  If not, then I'm slightly surprised.  SNbows with BH, quicksand, etc. are rather slow at damage dealing, so they should get destroyed by cremation rushes and the like.

[lightmage5]

The black hole singularity seems like a good idea but then would that work on  nymphs ability as well. It seems better just to increase the cost by 1 to reduce the amount of black holes used in most cases.

[Blaze]

I think it's a fine card and doesn't need a nerf at all, read the READ THIS FIRST section before posting please

[Fireleaf]

Just before I start, I'd like to say that I know there's already another Black Hole thread on the front page of this board, but it hasn't been posted on in two months and makes different arguments/suggestions than I will.

I'm going to make two main arguments here for why I believe Black Hole should be nerfed:

1. Strictly from a quanta and card cost standpoint, it is OP relative to what its effect is.

2. It has only one effective counter, which is a card that is not frequently used and is generally considered to be slightly UP.

Just a note: I am not claiming that Black Hole is at all OP when used against a mono, duo or even a trio; I am saying that it is OP when specifically used against rainbows, which makes it in a way a manifestation of elemental hate (while  is not an element, I consider it to be one in this context).

So now for argument 1: Black Hole is OP strictly from a quanta and card cost standpoint relative to its effect. I am no expert on valuing things, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Let's assume that you are playing Black Hole against an opponent who is playing a rainbow, and that they have a couple of quantum towers out and roughly twenty-four quanta scattered across the twelve elements. When BH is used against rainbows this is probably the average situation in which it is used: either after a SN or a couple of turns of quantum generation from towers. In this situation, BH has two effects: it drains all 24 quanta from the opponent and heals the user for 24 HP. Let's break these two effects down and see (roughly) what they are worth.

Draining 24 quanta: There is no real benchmark for how expensive draining quanta should be, so I will use Nova, and assume that draining 12 quanta is worth a card. In that case, draining 24 quanta should be worth two cards.

Healing 24 HP: I'll use the Heal card here, as 20 HP is almost the same as 24 HP. Therefore healing 24 quanta is worth 3 quanta and a card.

So all in all, BH costs 4 quanta + a card, and is worth 3 quanta + 3 cards. Assuming one quantum roughly equals a card, BH is then worth one more quanta than it costs. This is in an averagish situation when used against a rainbow; if BH is used lategame and drains 36 quanta then it is worth roughly 5 quanta + 5 cards. This valuation leads me to my first nerfing suggestion: increase the cost of BH by one, both unupped and upped, to 5 | 4. My second suggestion is to have BH heal one HP for each two quantum drained, which would balance this calculation.

Now for my second argument: that BH lacks effective counters.

BH is a spell, so obviously neither PC or CC can counter it. Secondly it is a non-targeted spell, so it cannot be countered by reflective shields. The only counter that exists to BH is Sanctuary, which is a hard counter. This is fine, except Sancs are a terrible card to include in a rainbow, where the issue lies.

So here is the conclusion I have come to: BH is roughly one quantum cheaper than it should be when played against rainbows, and there is no effective, practical way to counter it if you are playing a rainbow.

I know that rainbows are generally viewed unfavorably here as being generally OP, and that indirectly buffing them by nerfing their main "counter" is not likely to be popular, but I ask you to at least consider what I am saying. After the SN nerf, is it not unreasonable to think that BH should get one as well? Please don't just dismiss me as another noob who wants his speedbow to be more effective.

[Quantumage]

Black hole is currently at a sweet spot. Its 4/3 cost makes it difficult to use turns 1-2 unless you're running mono-gravity. While it's true that the card is insanely good against rainbows, that is fine because (1) only gravitycentric decks can spam the card, (2) and it's very underwhelming versus mono-duo decks.

Is purify OP because it counters poison decks for a 2/1 cost?
No.

As it stands, Black hole is just a tool to control rainbow decks.

[eaglgenes101]

1 quantum pillar = 1 elemental pillar = 1 void pillar = 1 nova
Black hole drains equiv of 3 novas = 3 void pillars played at one time = 3 0-cost cards
2 card advantage (playing 3 void pillars in 1, saving 2 cards)= 4 gravity quanta (Mistake, sorry)

Got me?

[Fireleaf]

1 quantum pillar = 1 elemental pillar = 1 void pillar = 1 nova
Black hole drains equiv of 3 novas = 3 void pillars played at one time = 3 0-cost cards
2 card advantage (playing 3 void pillars in 1, saving 2 cards)= 4 gravity quanta

Got me?

So that balances, but then if you value the healing at 2 or even 3 , there seems to be a cost discrepancy.

[Jangoo]

I always felt that BH was introduced to counter the supremacy of speedbows at a time when every friggin deck that had a say in the game was fueled by SNs.
With SN having gotten nerfed pretty hard, BH does indeed seem to be somewhat OP since it still is mostly geared at crippling rainbows and trios and such. Then again you could also read this the other way: With less people playing rainbows, BHs situational value has severly gone down ... so it has already been nerfed. 

I would prefer that SNs get a slight buff again instead of nerfing BH.
Nevertheless, reducing healing is good idea but I would tone it to fit the VS mono VS rainbow situations, such as:

12 or more quanta absorbed => get 1 HP/ 2 quanta
11 or less quanta absorbed => get 1 HP/ 1 quantum