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Offline Fireleaf

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Re: Black Hole | Black Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10217.msg1056070#msg1056070
« Reply #132 on: April 01, 2013, 11:58:14 am »
You could stop thunderstorm with a mark of  :aether and six quints if you wanted to, but you choose not to, because it would slow down your deck a very large amount, and you would have to take  :fire cards out to make room for them. In a SNbow, you have your Elite Graboids, your Giant Frogs, your Werewolves, your Abyss Crawlers for damage. Then you might have a thunderbolt or two in case of really annoying enemy creatures (oty, maxwells etc) and maybe some PC for dims and the like. My point is, that you only have so much deck space, and that deck space should be devoted to dealing damage as quickly as possible. I don't know how much two Sancs would slow down a SNbow because I've never tried it, but they will have some effect.

@Dm - 1) See above

            2) I checked the wiki and you're right, but the card wording is a bit ambiguous there. Anyways, apologies for that.

            3) Read the second half of the sentence. My point is that how often a card is used is a good indication of it's power. 
                 Since sanctuary isn't used that often, it is reasonable to conclude that it isn't that powerful. Therefore the one
                 counter to BH isn't that powerful. Imagine if the game had no PC except for a card that said "Destroy target
                 Dim shield and all copies of it in your opponents deck. Dim would be OP, and all decks that relied on creatures
                 would be forced to pack this card. This is similar to the Sanc/BH effect. There is only one way to counter BH,
                 and BH shouldn't be so powerful that rainbow players are forced to pack Sancs "just in case".
       
            4) If I missed replying to one of your points then I apologize; I've been kind of busy on this thread lately.

EDIT: Sorry for the awful formatting; I typed this on an iPad.
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Offline Dm

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Re: Black Hole | Black Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10217.msg1056134#msg1056134
« Reply #133 on: April 01, 2013, 05:02:59 pm »
You could stop thunderstorm with a mark of  :aether and six quints if you wanted to, but you choose not to, because it would slow down your deck a very large amount, and you would have to take  :fire cards out to make room for them. In a SNbow, you have your Elite Graboids, your Giant Frogs, your Werewolves, your Abyss Crawlers for damage. Then you might have a thunderbolt or two in case of really annoying enemy creatures (oty, maxwells etc) and maybe some PC for dims and the like. My point is, that you only have so much deck space, and that deck space should be devoted to dealing damage as quickly as possible. I don't know how much two Sancs would slow down a SNbow because I've never tried it, but they will have some effect.

@Dm - 1) See above

            2) I checked the wiki and you're right, but the card wording is a bit ambiguous there. Anyways, apologies for that.

            3) Read the second half of the sentence. My point is that how often a card is used is a good indication of it's power. 
                 Since sanctuary isn't used that often, it is reasonable to conclude that it isn't that powerful. Therefore the one
                 counter to BH isn't that powerful. Imagine if the game had no PC except for a card that said "Destroy target
                 Dim shield and all copies of it in your opponents deck. Dim would be OP, and all decks that relied on creatures
                 would be forced to pack this card. This is similar to the Sanc/BH effect. There is only one way to counter BH,
                 and BH shouldn't be so powerful that rainbow players are forced to pack Sancs "just in case".
       
            4) If I missed replying to one of your points then I apologize; I've been kind of busy on this thread lately.

EDIT: Sorry for the awful formatting; I typed this on an iPad.

1) The CC and PC is already slowing the deck down. You usually have Two PC cards and two CC cards -- take off one of each and add in two sanctuaries. Your deck is just as fast as before. I'd also point out that CC and PC does not maximize your deck speed and that not all speedbows have CC nor PC. IF Your point really was that the deck space should be devoted for dealing the maximum amount of damage, you should have NEVER
1a) Brought Stalls into this, that I covered in my last post
1b) Brought CC or PC into your own post.

2) I understand. But please, I'd like to ask you to.. at least do a bit search around before sayin' it.

3) You're telling me
3a) How often a card is played is a good indication of it's power.
By this logic, Black Hole would not be a powerful card. Black Hole was used very rarely even when SNovas were not nerfed and is still a rare issue -- the card itself. The card generated by the abilities of SoFo are totally different and should not be included here. SoFo is a card, Black Hole is another, and because SoFo generates a Black Hole does not mean that Black Hole is a card that is used frequently. Further on, I have already said that Black Hole is only good against the Rainbows, as against Mono and Duos it would be rather pathetic for denial and healing. BEFORE you bring Discord into this, let me remind you about our other conversation - about combos being OP but the cards in it individually not being OP.
3b) There is only one way to counter BH. There are only two ways, much more under-used than Sanctuary, to counter damaging spells when targeted on your HP. And only one to completely deny it's effects when targeted on your creature. (Reflective Shield, Jade Shield, and Quintessence.) Therefore, according to you, all damaging spells are OP. ... Does this sound right? Also, Mono and Duo are indirect counters to BH.

4) You didn't miss one point, you missed a whole wall of text in the last page.

Offline TribalTrouble

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Re: Black Hole | Black Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10217.msg1056193#msg1056193
« Reply #134 on: April 01, 2013, 07:43:21 pm »
Doesn't need a nerf at all. 24 votes to 19 for the other 3 options. Yeah.... no nerf any time soon. Also, why no White Hole?

Offline Heric the Dark Lord

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Re: Black Hole | Black Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10217.msg1056301#msg1056301
« Reply #135 on: April 02, 2013, 03:51:51 am »
Quote
You could stop thunderstorm with a mark of  :aether and six quints if you wanted to, but you choose not to, because it would slow down your deck a very large amount, and you would have to take  :fire cards out to make room for them. In a SNbow, you have your Elite Graboids, your Giant Frogs, your Werewolves, your Abyss Crawlers for damage. Then you might have a thunderbolt or two in case of really annoying enemy creatures (oty, maxwells etc) and maybe some PC for dims and the like. My point is, that you only have so much deck space, and that deck space should be devoted to dealing damage as quickly as possible. I don't know how much two Sancs would slow down a SNbow because I've never tried it, but they will have some effect.

1:I don't use aether, hence the mono-fire. I CAN'T use quint, cause I don't use aether quanta to use the card. To get the quanta, I'd have to make it Fire-Aether. If you want to go that way, go build a mono deck, and you won't have issues with BH. Problem solved. Otherwise, the difference is you already generate the quanta to use it. I don't counter it cause, in addition to nothing in my element to fight it other than Seraph and Phoenix(Use that guy!), I use enough creatures to fight, even while (Heh) Plagued by those cards, and I fight through the thunderstorm. You generate, and use fast enough, enough quanta to get through BH.
2:Like one before me said, The PC/CC in your deck isn't dealing damage, nor making your deck faster. Replace some of them with Sanc, if that's an issue.(I understand, that sort of stuff is necessary on occasion, but they counter stuff, just like Sanc.)
3:Two Sancs in an SNbow would slow it down based on what cards you remove, or whether you do. I understand the point of a compact deck, but two cards extra rarely does any harm.
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Offline Fireleaf

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Re: Black Hole | Black Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10217.msg1056374#msg1056374
« Reply #136 on: April 02, 2013, 12:02:12 pm »
@Dm:

Fair point. However, I would argue that very often PC, and occasionally CC, can make decks faster. Like i said, if your opponent has a Dim Shield up, would you rather have a frog in your hand or an explosion? If they have Poseidon and are about to destroy your pends and kill your quanta, I'll take a steal over an Elite Mummy. Likewise, if my opponent drops an Amber Nymph onto the board, I'd better hope I have some CC handy. If they play an Elite Oty and I've got a frog and a recluse on the board, I'm in big trouble if I don't have a thunderbolt in my hand. Some CC and PC in a rush deck can speed it up by removing obstacles that get in the way of a deck's success.

Secondly, rainbows are a large enough part of the meta that Black Hole is a worthwhile card, just like decks that depend on permanents are common enough that PC is worthwhile. Also, if a combo is OP, there are two ways to deal with it; nerf one of the cards or nerf the other. Discord has already been nerfed, and disco-BH is still OP; any idea what I'm going to say now? The difference in number of counters is not the only thing that makes BH powerful. Sure, there are only two says to counter spell damage, but since the quanta cap, literally nobody builds decks around bolts. Secondly, if you want to counter damage to creatures: Plate Armour, Blessing, CP, Burrow, Anubis, Silence, etc. I could list more if I wanted.

@Heric:

Fair point, but i shouldnt have to change my deck type to deal with one card. I think I dealt with the rest of your points in my response to Dm.
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Re: Black Hole | Black Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10217.msg1056395#msg1056395
« Reply #137 on: April 02, 2013, 02:36:03 pm »
@Heric:

Fair point, but i shouldnt have to change my deck type to deal with one card.
You don't have to change your deck to deal with the one card. However like with all cards that interact with your deck, you have to choose to deal with the card or to not deal with the card. Deckbuilding is a game of tradeoffs. You can choose whether or not to sacrifice some amount of general effectiveness to be more resilient against the counters to your deck.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 02:37:44 pm by OldTrees »
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Offline TribalTrouble

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Re: Black Hole | Black Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10217.msg1056487#msg1056487
« Reply #138 on: April 02, 2013, 07:33:25 pm »
by the logic of not having to change a deck to deal with 1 card you are saying that a life mono rush or Time mono shouldn't be changed to deal with Dimensional Shield.

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Re: Black Hole | Black Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10217.msg1056493#msg1056493
« Reply #139 on: April 02, 2013, 08:02:17 pm »
I have another suggestion: Black holes now absorb 2 quanta of each element +1 for every 3 quantas the opponent has got of that type of element (Probably the card cost should be lowered by 1 quanta then). This would make it a bit more usable against monos while toning down its effectiveness against rainbows and its synergy with discord. It also suits the theme of the black hole since gravity exerts a stronger pull against heavy objects.
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Offline Dm

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Re: Black Hole | Black Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10217.msg1056510#msg1056510
« Reply #140 on: April 02, 2013, 09:09:27 pm »
@Dm:

Fair point. However, I would argue that very often PC, and occasionally CC, can make decks faster. Like i said, if your opponent has a Dim Shield up, would you rather have a frog in your hand or an explosion? If they have Poseidon and are about to destroy your pends and kill your quanta, I'll take a steal over an Elite Mummy. Likewise, if my opponent drops an Amber Nymph onto the board, I'd better hope I have some CC handy. If they play an Elite Oty and I've got a frog and a recluse on the board, I'm in big trouble if I don't have a thunderbolt in my hand. Some CC and PC in a rush deck can speed it up by removing obstacles that get in the way of a deck's success.

Secondly, rainbows are a large enough part of the meta that Black Hole is a worthwhile card, just like decks that depend on permanents are common enough that PC is worthwhile. Also, if a combo is OP, there are two ways to deal with it; nerf one of the cards or nerf the other. Discord has already been nerfed, and disco-BH is still OP; any idea what I'm going to say now? The difference in number of counters is not the only thing that makes BH powerful. Sure, there are only two says to counter spell damage, but since the quanta cap, literally nobody builds decks around bolts. Secondly, if you want to counter damage to creatures: Plate Armour, Blessing, CP, Burrow, Anubis, Silence, etc. I could list more if I wanted.

The first is false. One, because you TOLD us that "The deck size should be made to maximize the damage dealt." PC and CC DO NOT Maximize Damage Dealt (Most decks don't have anything worth PC-while; don't argue with this, because if you do, you are telling me most decks have something worth PC'ing, which is the same as telling me SNova's are not a dominating part of the metagame and we'll fall on Rush>Stall>C>Rush that I've said before.) CC (CREATURE control) clearly does not maximize damage dealt. In very specific cases, PC can be used to help you (DimShields or Wings), but CC will never maximize your damage dealt as the creatures are fairly meaningless to what you are doing at the moment (maximizing speed). PC is situational, which means it does not maximize and often slows. Sorry.

As for Poseidon, not only is EQ more worthwhile, but in a SNova you already got the quanta you needed if you have enough to choose between an elite mummy and an Explosion. Your Pends don't mean much right there.

Amber Nymph is a rare card that requires two turns to drain you, and you have already used most of your quanta (We HAVE argued about this already and you never continued, which is, I assume, an agreement; refer to Page 3.) by the time it is dropped, since it has a heavy cost. You already have creatures on table when Amber Nymph is dropped, the heal it will give won't slow you down for any further than one or two turns (that most likely won't make a difference if you are facing an Amber Nymph.) Further on, if you drop the Elite Mummy, you are dealing damage to the opponent and killing him faster, while with CC, the killing of the Otyugh or of the Amber Nymph does not speed up the rate at which your deck deals damage. CC or PC does not Speed Up the deck; it makes it so the deck isn't Slowed down IF, IF IF IF, (We argued about this as well!) you're facing Control. And as Rushes are usually dominating (we talked 'bout it..!)

It is common knowledge to anyone that plays PVP2 on a decent rate that the only reason BH would be popular is because of the constant use of SoFo. Even before the SuperNova nerf, I would rarely see the BH's around- and when they were around, they were in Rainbows themselves. I -HEAVILY- Disagree that PC is an important part, as in an upgraded meta game (which we are assuming), the Permanents don't bother you all that much unless you're in the unlikely scenario of facing an OTK -- A scenario that seems to have died out ever since the Instosis nerf in 1.32.
Discord + BlackHole is only OP in the first few turns. Decks are often unaffected by discord in the later turns, since as the match progresses, the fact that you will be generating more and more quanta is easy to notice, and you will easily bypass what Discord is doing (Scramble). With each turn, the amount of Quanta the Discord Scrambles will be the same, but you are producing more, until the scramble is meaningless -- if the opponent constantly uses BH, it will run out of BH's soon and it won't heal enough from just a 9 scrambled quanta that the Discord gave. By some Smart Play you can outsmart the BH usage and do an splendid comeback.

"Literally no one" is not a valid point. "Literally anyone can place a Sanctuary in their decks and counter BH". There, I used your logic and said the same thing in reverse. According to you, it holds true. Bolt STILL kills 100 HP opponents, and if you think FireStall isn't as great as it was before, I'd like you to check the card Fahrenheit. For your "countering damage to creatures", I'm sorry, that would be quite false. You're not countering, you're delaying the inevitable. Countering would be to nullify, in our current scenario -- what you are saying would not be countering, it would be finding a way to survive longer.
PS: "Literally no one" uses Plate Armor/Anubis. :3
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 09:11:11 pm by Dm1321 »

Offline Heric the Dark Lord

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Re: Black Hole | Black Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10217.msg1056530#msg1056530
« Reply #141 on: April 02, 2013, 10:15:06 pm »
Quote
by the logic of not having to change a deck to deal with 1 card you are saying that a life mono rush or Time mono shouldn't be changed to deal with Dimensional Shield.

That does appear to be his logic.


@fireleaf

As I-and Oldtrees-said, You're not changing your deck style. It's still an SNbow rush. In your case, your telling me to run Fire-Aether, as opposed to Mono-fire. What would make more sense would be telling me "Use Phoenix and Seraph, who are resistant to CC". Which I already use at least 1 phoenix(I think 2). In my case, I'm telling you one thing you can already fit. "Use Sanc, which stops black hole(At least, long enough to get your rush out before they can lockdown.)"

Yes, Rainbows are a big enough part of the meta you could see someone including a black hole fairly reasonable. No, that does not mean it's OP. The meta adapts to fight or become what can fight it. Just because a card can destroy one deck(Should it be left unchecked. See: Sanctuary),(And JUST the one deck) doesn't mean that it should be nerfed so it can't compete at all. At that point, I could say "Plague, Thunderstorm, Pandemonium, Owl's Eye, Discord, Fire Nymph, and pretty much every card in decks that beat mine, unless I use the card, should be nerfed so they can't beat mine!" Not to be rude, but that a lot of what your argument sounds like "Black Hole should be nerfed because its too powerful against my deck."
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Offline Joyrock

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Re: Black Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10217.msg1064630#msg1064630
« Reply #142 on: April 28, 2013, 02:01:32 am »
I think it's a fine card and doesn't need a nerf at all, read the READ THIS FIRST section before posting please ;)
You think wrong, then.

It doesn't hurt a lot of decks, but it DESTROYS rainbow decks, with no reasonable response to it, especially if they get out the nymph early on.

That, the nymph version, Quicksand/Earthquake, and Shard of Focus all need to be destroyed, because the amount of quanta deprivation they allow for such little cost is insane.

Offline Cheesy111

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Re: Black Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10217.msg1064631#msg1064631
« Reply #143 on: April 28, 2013, 02:03:32 am »
I think it's a fine card and doesn't need a nerf at all, read the READ THIS FIRST section before posting please ;)
You think wrong, then.

It doesn't hurt a lot of decks, but it DESTROYS rainbow decks, with no reasonable response to it, especially if they get out the nymph early on.

That, the nymph version, Quicksand/Earthquake, and Shard of Focus all need to be destroyed, because the amount of quanta deprivation they allow for such little cost is insane.

A better argument would be that it's badly designed rather than poorly balanced.  A card that did 100 damage for 0 quanta would be properly balanced at a certain probability of it working, but it would be poorly designed.  Purify/BH-style hard-counter cards are similarly poorly designed without being overpowered.

 

blarg: