Poll

How should arsenic be changed?

It shouldn't!
45 (90%)
It should only deal poison damage, no physical damage.
0 (0%)
it should cost more to play it.
4 (8%)
It should last a limited number of turns, like a phase sheild.
0 (0%)
it should cost to use its poisoning skill.
0 (0%)
it should be replaced with something completely different (explain below)
0 (0%)
other (explain below)
1 (2%)

Total Members Voted: 50

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Offline sheilasaurusTopic starter

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[Official] Arsenic | Arsenic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40213.msg498742#msg498742
« on: May 15, 2012, 02:10:30 pm »


I realize that the rare weapons are all very powerful in their own unique way, and I enjoy that aspect of the game. However, the weapon Arsenic is much more powerful than all the rest. To prove this, I had to do some math (not my strong suit).

Arsenic does an increasing amount of damage each turn, because the poison damage from the previous turns remains. so Arsenic does 3+N damage, where N is the number of turns it has been in play.
turn 1: 2+1=3 total:3
turn 2: 2+2=4 total:7
turn 3: 2+3=6 total:13
...
by turn 10 it has done 77 damage all by itself, by turn 11 it rises to 90, and the 12th turn arsenic is in play, it will have inflicted 104 damage, killing the opponent, without the help of any other card.

Considering this, Arsenic is unreasonably cheap. For only 2 quanta it can be played, meaning if I player has it in her hand, she can almost always play it on the second if not the first turn. Once it is in play, the poison damage it does is automatic and free.

For comparison, if we imagine each of these weapons in a game where they are not countered or destroyed:
Discord costs 3,  takes 25 turns to kill the opponent.
Titan costs 5 takes 15 turns to kill the opponent
pulverizer costs 4 and takes 20 turns
Druid staff costs 2 and takes 50 turns
trident costs 3 and takes 25 turns
morning star costs 5 and takes 15 turns
owl's eye costs 5 and takes 20 turns
eternity costs 6 and takes 25 turns
vampire stilletto costs 1 and takes 25 turns
Lobotomizer costs 3 and takes 20 turns.
Arsenic costs 2  and takes 12 turns to kill the opponent!

Farenheit  depends on the number of fire quanta. so to be really good, the player needs to be saving up the quanta, whereas arsenic is free once it is played.

The problem with arsenic is that if it is not stolen or destroyed, it is capable of winning the game completely on its own, because 12 turns is not an unreasonable length for a game. Basically, I think the number of turns it takes for arsenic to kill should be more in line with the other weapons and proportional to its price. So I have a few ideas for a fix that would be in keeping with the idea of the card.

I believe any 2 of the following would help greatly:
1.Arsenic should cost more, 5-7 quanta.
2. Poison should have a skill cost, like the skills of eternity, lobotomizer, pulverizer, ect.
3. Arsenic should only do +1 poison damage, no physical damage
4. Arsenic should only last a set number of turns, like certain powerful sheilds. Or it should only do poison damage a set number of turns.
(please note, I'm not arguing for all of the above, just a combination of any two, or maybe even just one. I hope people will chime in in the discussion)

My ideal Arsenic card, that I think would be much more even with the other Rare weapons would be:
Cost to play: 5 quanta.
deal 2 damage.
Skill: Deal +1 poison Skill Cost: 2 quanta.
I think the above would still be a really powerful card, because it still gives the player an unlimited supply of poison, they just have to pay for it.

Please share your thoughts!
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 01:05:52 am by Treldon »

Offline Absol

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Re: Arsenic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40213.msg498746#msg498746
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2012, 02:16:12 pm »
Where's the "no nerf" option?
Also, did you really read the "READ THIS FIRST" thread?

EDIT: owait, there is the "no nerf" option.
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Offline Jenkar

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Re: Arsenic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40213.msg498749#msg498749
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2012, 02:23:48 pm »
You forgot the obvious disadvantage of arsenic : it does nothing but damage (which can be negated by purify btw). To compare, titans with their massive HP can combo welll with catapult once flown. Eternity and lobo and trident and discord and pulverizer and druidic staff are used for their ability mainly. Vampire stilleto does technically 8 damage differential (+4 healin' for you). Eagle's eye is useful even when damage is blocked. Morning star can't be destroyed.
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Offline sheilasaurusTopic starter

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Re: Arsenic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40213.msg498762#msg498762
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2012, 03:10:53 pm »
Also, did you really read the "READ THIS FIRST" thread?

I really did. I think I followed it to, except I can't post a pic because I can't link, because this is my first post. it took me awhile to figure out the damage and comparisons, and I didn't want to let it go to waste. So if I did something wrong, please help a newbie out and point it out to me here or in PM :D

Here's a quote from that thread I didn't read:
What Makes A Card Overpowered

Any or all of the following could mean a card is op:
1) High power level in relation to simliar cards.
2) Cost not balanced with effect.
3) Provides easily exploited card advantage.
And just because there is a way to counter a card does not mean it is fair and balanced.

I think I covered 1, I'm comparing it to the other rare weapons only.
2, yes, the biggest problem I have with this card is just how cheap it is
And yes, of course there are multiple ways to counter it, like everything else. But as a singular card, by itself, it is more powerful than the other rare weapons cards, by themselves.

You forgot the obvious disadvantage of arsenic : it does nothing but damage (which can be negated by purify btw). To compare, titans with their massive HP can combo welll with catapult once flown. Eternity and lobo and trident and discord and pulverizer and druidic staff are used for their ability mainly. Vampire stilleto does technically 8 damage differential (+4 healin' for you). Eagle's eye is useful even when damage is blocked. Morning star can't be destroyed.

 Poison already has an advantage over physical attack, because physical attacks can be healed in a variety of ways, with almost every element having an option. Poison can only be removed by purify, and the poison damage isn't blocked by shields. We could divide weapons into four general categories: good for CC (lobotomizer, ect). Good for PC (pulverizer, ect). Good for healing (vampire stiletto, ect). And pure damage. Titan, Morning Star, and Fahrenheit are all in this category. Shouldn't arsenic cost the same (5) and take the same approximate number of turns (15) to do 100 HP? That's all I'm trying to say.   




Offline Poker Alho

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Re: Arsenic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40213.msg498765#msg498765
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2012, 03:20:30 pm »
so after 10 turns in a match you think 77 damage is a lot?

lets compare it to lava destroyer:

7+9+11+13+15+17+19+21+23+25 = 160 damage

forest spectre:

2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20 = 110 damage

you still have to pay for their growing ability though but that alone doesnt prove arsenic is even close to being overpowered

also take in mind that healing, PC, purify and rushes wont never let arsenic get to the point where it delivers big amounts of damage

Offline Jenkar

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Re: Arsenic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40213.msg498766#msg498766
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2012, 03:21:00 pm »
Nope.
Let's focus on damage based weapons.
Titan : cost 5, takes 15 turns. Ignores shields. Combos extremely well with other gravity cards (gravity pull, Accelleration, Catapult).
Morning Star : costs 5, takes 15 turns. Undestructible. Stall decks in element.
Arsenic : costs 2, takes 12 turns. Countered by purify.

Imo, Arsenic is slightly stronger than titan, though not by much, ie not warranting a nerf. Morningstar is weaker than both, maybe warranting a small buff to it.
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Re: Arsenic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40213.msg498767#msg498767
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2012, 03:22:55 pm »
Nope.
Let's focus on damage based weapons.
Titan : cost 5, takes 15 turns. Ignores shields. Combos extremely well with other gravity cards (gravity pull, Accelleration, Catapult).
Morning Star : costs 5, takes 15 turns. Undestructible. Stall decks in element.
Arsenic : costs 2, takes 12 turns. Countered by purify.

Imo, Arsenic is slightly stronger than titan, though not by much, ie not warranting a nerf. Morningstar is weaker than both, maybe warranting a small buff to it.

Morning star did get an indirect buff with SoW

Offline plastiqe

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Re: Arsenic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40213.msg498803#msg498803
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2012, 04:30:40 pm »
You're right that Arsenic is a top tier weapon.  Another perk is that poison damage dealt by Arsenic keeps chugging even after it is destroyed/blocked.  But when you compare the weapons purely on damage I'd say Arsenic still comes out 2nd to Fahrenheit (which can kill you a lot faster).  Those are really the only two weapons that are pure damage, every other weapon does damage and something else.  And you have to consider the extra benefits of an Eternity or a Pulvy when you're talking about the power level of weapons.  It's not just about how fast they can kill you.  So in your example in the opening post you compared damage, and you compared cost, but you didn't compare effect.

I'm definitely in favour of adding more cards to the game that can counter poison, like a creature that removes poison counters or something.

Offline stevy4

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Re: Arsenic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40213.msg498818#msg498818
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2012, 05:09:52 pm »
It shouldn't!,why to change it?

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Re: Arsenic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40213.msg498824#msg498824
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2012, 05:26:59 pm »
 I would like to note, upped vampire dagger beats out arsenic in terms of which kills which first.
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Re: Arsenic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40213.msg498825#msg498825
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2012, 05:30:14 pm »
Vampire dagger takes 17 turns to kill.
In 17 turns, Arsenic does 4+5+...+20=204 damage.
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Re: Arsenic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=40213.msg498837#msg498837
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2012, 05:53:30 pm »
Vampire dagger takes 17 turns to kill.
In 17 turns, Arsenic does 4+5+...+20=204 damage.
I did  a test of unupped vs unupped and upped vs upped. Unupped arsenic killed first by a few turns, upped vampire killed first by a couple turns due to healing.
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