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Gravity and Entropy don't pair up... https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67180.msg1289159#msg1289159
« on: May 14, 2019, 03:44:29 pm »
Okay, I've done a lot of thinking over this...

Sorry if this triggers anyone, but I just can't wrap my head around  :gravity and  :entropy being the opposites of each other. Now I don't mean to insult the creator's original ideas or impose my opinion on everyone here, but for me,  :gravity is as far away from being the opposite of  :entropy as possible. I just can't see how  :gravity represents the concept of "order", and so, for my webnovel, I shall be dividing the elements into my preferred way. (Take note, this considers the elements not as a card game but more of an Avatar the Last Airbender kind of thing, where the person himself has magic powers pertaining to the element)


For the purposes of my story, I shall divide the 12 elements into 6 pairs or "Arcana". These Arcana will contain two elements opposite of each other, mirroring each other like two sides of the same coin, such that in situations where the main element is ineffective, the opposite element can switch. I did this because using only one element may give a person glaring weaknesses. Having two hands, and both left and right hands instead of just two left hands, is definitely enough to give a person balanced flexibility. A person falling under one Arcana receives the two elements categorized under that Arcana, but as with real life, it's up to him if he wants to be right or left-handed.



Now then, for the pairings... These are the Arcana that I've come up with:




The Wave Arcana ( :fire :water)

The most obvious polar opposites of all, fire and water is a staple in most fantasy stories. They're both a play on the concept of temperature; when things get too hot, fires, radiations or sometimes plasma appears, and when things get too cold, ice/frost takes over. These two elements are often seen cancelling each other out when facing against each other, making them bitter rivals, but they do have enough similarity in that, we can say "someone who is controlling both fire and ice is using a power of temperature change. One adds thermal energy, one removes thermal energy. So it's safe to say that the Wave Arcana allows its user dominion over temperatures.

As with the usual connotation,  :fire is destructive and mainly used for hurting others. It burns people, explodes buildings, etc...  :water on the other hand is a more well-rounded element which can be used to attack, intercept, protect, or support teammates. I've named it "Wave" because of the way images seem to sway in the hot desert. A 'heat wave' sort of. And of course, the ocean has waves, 'nuff said.





The Moon (or the Eye, haven't really finalized it yet)  :darkness :light

Another classic that needs no further introduction. One is basically the absence of the other.  :darkness is evil element that nerfs the opponents and steals their vitality.  :darkness is the type of magic lone wolves or assasins might use. It would also be a top favorite for thieves.  :light is the element concerned with righteousness. It can protect others and ward off  :darkness and  :death. The image one has of  :light would usually be angels or chivalrous knights.





The Nest ( :death :life)

I've named this "Nest" because of how birds collect twigs and leaves to create a nest. The twigs are just dead plant materials that have fallen off, but ironically, they are used to house the bird's eggs which sprout new life into the ecosystem. As with before, this is self-explanatory.  :death uses slow acting poisons and bone magic, while  :life would basically be a grassbender that can heal.





The Tower ( :earth :aether)

Ah, yes. Our first disagreement. Unlike the classical elements that pairs earth and air, I choose Aether. The reason for this is, one: I believe the contrast to be more vivid this way.  :earth versus  :air provides an imagery of the world below and the world up.  :earth (lithosphere) has the seas and the islands,  :air has the clouds and sky (heaven). It works, sure, but wouldn't heaven match better with  :aether? After all,  :aether is concerned with the things that cannot be touched, it's in a spiritual realm that we can only feel with a sixth sense. Isn't the image more fitting to be the opposite of  :earth:aether??

But the bigger reason is this:  :air is opposite of  :earth for the imagery, but everything stops there. In terms of actual combat abilities, the two are really far off from each other.  :earth magic is sending rock spikes toward the enemy, covering your body in diamond armor, and trapping the enemy in a makeshift rock prison. Forgive me for thinking this, but  :air uses razor winds and tornadoes to attack. Maybe it can deplete oxygen as well and force the opponent to suffocate. These techniques are way unrelated to the solidness  :earth presents. The real opposite of  :earth in this context would be  :aether.

 :aether can phase out and render all  :earth attacks meaningless. In this sense,  :aether would be a hard counter to  :earth. But in a way,  :earth can also hold a candle up to  :aether. Part of the skills that fall under  :aether is lightning magic, and in most stories,  :earth is an insulator for electricity. Thus,  :earth and  :aether are at odds with each other, much in the same way  :fire and  :water are (one is brute force, the other is more flexible). Wouldn't you say these two are the opposites?

Hence, if one falls under the Tower Arcana, he shall have access to the hard-hitting powers of rock manipulation, as well as the many tricks of  :aether if that is not an option. As a final note, I named this The Tower in reference to the lightning-truck tower card in tarot. It has an element of solidness and aether-ness to it. It's also what inspired me to name these pairs Arcana https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u7uRPAOkoU





The Cloud ( :gravity :air)

Why didn't I put  :air with  :earth? Because the way I interpreted it, Air's main advantage over other magics is its ability to fly. In the elements cardgame, the main similarity between  :air creatures is not that they are made up of air, or that they can turn into air... no, it's that they can fly. Wind magic is more importantly flight magic, and this is where  :air really starts to become a fearsome weapon. Humans that fly are harder to target than humans on ground, they have so much more chances to escape, and they can launch a kamikaze ambush right from above. If this were an MMORPG, these  :air users would be like those annoying speedsters that you just can't break free of.  :air would also have access to other indirect attacks as well, such as sound magic or control of noble gases.

If you've watched Naruto, wind chakra there is interpreted as "cutting" chakra that acts like an invisible blade. If you watch other anime, you may have also encountered the term "Kamaitachi", which is the ability to cut someone a hundred meters away from you without any body contact. It's based off a whirlwind yokai or devil in Japanese folktales. If this long-range, no body contact skill is used with  :air's flying abilities, then what element would be able to counter that?

Enter  :gravity. Gravity bending is as straight-forward as it gets: you push things, you pull things, that's it. This magic can allow all oncoming attacks to repel away from you, can cause one of your attacks to chase after a moving target, and can increase gravity everywhere you're not standing so that enemies are semi-paralyzed. Magic that removes all momentum from a heavy moving object would also belong here, and bouncing it off into a collision course with your enemies. And of course, a full penetration armor break.

What's interesting here is that, going by Naruto physics again, you can create a sucking blackhole not necessarily beside you but somewhere far, far away. It's not like  :fire that you shoot out of your body and has to take time to travel towards your enemy, and that the enemy can dodge with enough reaction time; you can create a blackhole at any point in space already right next to your target, which would then suck him and everything else it can towards it. Maybe you can even do it with an outburst pushing blackhole as well. This would provide the perfect counter to the flying abilities of  :air.

Unlike if you shoot fireballs that the  :air user can dodge,  :gravity covers enough area to render  :air flying abilities ineffective. It has no problems dealing with  :air in a long-range stand-off, because  :gravity does not need to aim for its attacks to reach. You can Shinra Tensei any moving object, and increase gravity so that all flying enemies fall down. Hence, a match-up with  :air and  :gravity would be like a shogi match where pieces can suddenly appear anywhere on the board.  :air and  :gravity will hit everything regardless of distance, and so, reaching the Cloud Arcana will give the user a wide variety of AoE/crowd control spells. Or maybe area control is the more appropriate term here.

This is why I did not pair up  :gravity with  :entropy, because making things heavy and repelling objects just doesn't ring the word "order" to me in any way. Gravity is gravity, it does what it does (with mechanical energy), nothing more...

Also, I named it the Cloud because clouds are made up of particles that are still being weighed down by gravity, but light and dust-like enough that it can just float around. When it does get heavy, that's when we get rain and snow. I initially named it the Feather or the Falling Leaf, but decided otherwise.





The (???)   :entropy :time

Finally, the biggest controversy of all. Entropy.

Why, oh why is  :gravity not paired with  :entropy omg Zanzarino is going to kill me :((


First off: what do we mean by Entropy, as a concept, as the card element, and as a combat magic style? In the elements start page, it defines  :entropy as the thing that makes glass unfixable once shattered. True enough... When you crumple a piece of paper, or bend/twist a wire, it's so much harder to return it to its original state.  :entropy is the chaotic configuration that all matter tends to lapse into when left to itself. Instead of trying to fruitlessly fix the glass, it's faster and easier to just make a new one. Something that's broken prefers to stay broken.

Now what is  :entropy fighting style? When I was first starting out elements, back in 2011, (back when I had friends...), I remember the guy that introduced it to me mentioning that  :entropy is a "combo breaker". It's not a hard-hitter; rather, it's a style that intercepts the opponent's setup before he can complete it. If someone has a deck that will one-turn K.O. me in five turns,  :entropy, instead of blocking or healing, will simply render the combo impossible. It messes up the opponent's Quanta, it messes up his rhythm. If the opponent lays out his dragon, you mutate it or snipe it with Paradox, and if it accidentally mutated into a 12|12 Crimson Dragon with Lobotomize, you just Anti-matter it and you're good to go.  :entropy has layers and layers of intercepts that, if not stops the opponent's attack, will use it against him.

Because of this, the way I've always seen  :entropy's luck-based play style is an interceptor.  If the opponent is a defensive type, then  :entropy does not have much use; it can't use the opponent's force against him if the force is too weak. But the stronger the opponent's attack is, the more effective  :entropy becomes. That is my interpretation of the card element.

So when I imagine an  :entropy bender, I imagine things that are unpredictable but have an excellent chance of nullifying enemy attacks. It could be anything, as  :entropy is not really one specific object. For example, a sword that is about to hit you melts into liquid upon contact. Or maybe once the sword slashes through your bones, the attacker immediately suffers damage equal to yours. Maybe  :aether's phase through effect luckily triggers (in which case,  :entropy would be more like a rainbow of all other magics). In all these circumstances,  :entropy is meant to counter a strong attack. That's what I imagine the  :entropy bender's style is: things that nerf, things that dissipate, things that reflect...

So then, why  :time? Let's remember our concept of  :entropy.

It's the way things go random. If we have a box of air molecules, put it into an empty chamber and then let all the air out, the air molecules would spread and scatter into the chamber via Brownian motion. Their motions would go haywire and as time goes by, entropy might increase, but it would never decrease. The air molecules aren't just going to cleanly align themselves into the shape of the starting box, that just doesn't happen. They're chaotic, they're disorganized, and they can only get more disorganized, not backwards. This is known as entropy and the arrow of time. It states that, yes, if you leave a system out by itself, its entropy can only increase, never decrease.

Now, Zanzarino suggested that Entropy can be lowered in this case, via the introduction of Gravity. If we push and converge all the air molecules into a single spot, then the chaos would decrease. They would be back to their original state. Right?

Well, the thing is, you exerted energy into this system just to keep the entropy of the molecules small. One of the things about entropy is that whenever you use energy to do something, some of that energy gets wasted as thermal energy. Everytime you convert energy from one form to another, you waste a percentage of it, and this heat goes into the surroundings making more entropy. Is there a way we can revert the molecules back to low entropy without exerting any energy? Is there a way to uncrumple the paper and straighten the wire without exerting ten times the energy we did twisting it??

Yes! In theory atleast. If all the moving molecules in the chamber could reverse their directions, retrace their steps as it were, like we were playing a video backwards, then all the molecules would at some point end up in their starting shape. If you look at a chess position on move 43 and retrace all the moves made, you would end up at the starting position. If you retrace all the steps that made a rubix cube unmatched, then you would end up with a solved cube. If we wind back the clock of our universe, we would end up with the beginning of the big bang.

Thus, in a way, a method for reverting entropy back into its organized state is time reversal. Reverse Time is like a hard factory reset that returns an object to its original state no matter the damage done. With this, I can definitely say that the counter to disorder is time reversal.  :time can make full use of this. It can speed up the user, freeze enemies, and slow things down. If it can predict the future accurately, it can even render the chance-based property of  :entropy obsolete.  :time is the element for order, guys. Anything you break, you can fix with  :time.

 :time also stabilizes your 60-card deck and makes it more consistent, so if you want order, there really is no other element for it. Interesting to note is this similarity between  :entropy and  :time in that they seem to blend all the other elements together. I don't know what to call this Arcana yet, (I'm thinking The Sand), but anyone who falls under this would not be an offensive bender at all. The  :entropy side would counter strong attacks, while the  :time side would also counter attacks (but in a completely different way). Super speed may give  :time offensive chances, but even then, it will have to rely on the user's own physical skills.








So there you have it. My 6 Arcana that I will use in my webnovel. Quite different from Zanzarino's original pairings, but I hope I've justified it enough to be a valid configuration. Will post character design when I finish it.




Thank you for reading!!!

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Offline InsignificantWeeaboo

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Re: Gravity and Entropy don't pair up... https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67180.msg1289167#msg1289167
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2019, 05:12:42 pm »
Welcome!

There was actually a bit of discussion regarding the :time :aether and :gravity :entropy pairings in another thread. I think the replies justify those pairings the best, especially the 2nd one:

Entropy increases with time. They are not opposites at all.
Gravity holds systems together, allowing the creation of areas with lower entropy. As far as elements goes, this is a good choice for an opposite.

As for time and aether, well as you say it represents spacetime. It's like life and death, both parts of the circle of life, but opposite all the same.
Though I do like the alternative :gravity :air pairing. Jury's still out on :earth :aether, though.
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Re: Gravity and Entropy don't pair up... https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67180.msg1289170#msg1289170
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2019, 07:19:34 pm »
Okay, I've done a lot of thinking over this...

Sorry if this triggers anyone, but I just can't wrap my head around  :gravity and  :entropy being the opposites of each other.

I understand you, and partially agree. Entropy doesn't really have any specific relation towards Gravity. Gravity is a force which draws/brings/attracts
bodies with a mass and/or energy together (it works even on a photon, however the photon doesn't have a rest mass).
Entropy is a natural phenomenon/property (I'll explain later) which affects everything in the Universe. The reason people pair Entropy and Gravity
together I think lies in two things. 1) Ppl like to think that Entropy just dismantles things while Gravity glues them together. Bad, bad thinking.
Or let's just say: a VERY simplistic model. 2) A more advanced thinking can also lead to this interesting pairing. In one of the "Future of the Universe"
scenarios Entropy grows ad infinitum, while Gravity will be negligible since by that time the Universe will consist only a very dilute soup of photons
and leptons. (Gravity is a very weak force, such elementary particles doesn't produce that much of a gravitational field...) See more here.

Quote
The (???)   :entropy :time

As Time passes, Entropy grows. Long answer.

Quote
First off: what do we mean by Entropy, as a concept, as the card element, and as a combat magic style? In the elements start page, it defines  :entropy as the thing that makes glass unfixable once shattered. True enough... When you crumple a piece of paper, or bend/twist a wire, it's so much harder to return it to its original state.  :entropy is the chaotic configuration that all matter tends to lapse into when left to itself. Instead of trying to fruitlessly fix the glass, it's faster and easier to just make a new one. Something that's broken prefers to stay broken.

Entropy isn't really just chaos. Chaos/order: it is in the eye of the beholder. We as human like to think that order isn't preferred by Entropy
- however we only forget that Entropy (Nature) doesn't really care about human definitions. You shatter a piece of glass? The glass/Entropy
simply doesn't care! For them - it is just a different state, a different configuration. Of course, Entropy did grow through the shattering, but it is only
our perspective that the broken glass is useless now. Maybe a better example: make your room very untidy. (Or be just like a normal person and
don't do any chores for 2 weeks.) The configuration of books changed, wow, here is my sock I've been searching for days!, and it seems my rubber
eraser just fell from the desk, ah I found some coins, yeah, I'm a wealthy man, some used tissue papers (really? do they split every day?), a random
paper clip on your chair, movie tickets, fine dust everywhere, and please, don't turn your keyboard over, you'll find a whole hell there! Yep, this is disorder
for you. For Entropy? Hell no, just another configuration of objects! From a statistical view: more possible numbers of configurations, greater Entropy.
(Ice: solid water, not much energy differences between particles, less configurations, low Entropy; liquid water: particles can directly move, greater energy
differences between individual particles, more configurations, greater Entropy; water vapor: almost unhindered movements, huge energy differences between
individual particles, more configurations, even greater Entropy.)

Quote
It's the way things go random. If we have a box of air molecules, put it into an empty chamber and then let all the air out, the air molecules would spread and scatter into the chamber via Brownian motion. Their motions would go haywire and as time goes by, entropy might increase, but it would never decrease. The air molecules aren't just going to cleanly align themselves into the shape of the starting box, that just doesn't happen. They're chaotic, they're disorganized, and they can only get more disorganized, not backwards. This is known as entropy and the arrow of time. It states that, yes, if you leave a system out by itself, its entropy can only increase, never decrease.

Not true, not true. They can "align themselves". I mean it can happen that you'll find a bunch of molecules in one corner of the box
and nothing in the rest of the box. It just has a MICROSCOPICALLY LOW chance! Btw entropy naturally grows only in an ISOLATED system.

Quote
Yes! In theory atleast. If all the moving molecules in the chamber could reverse their directions, retrace their steps as it were, like we were playing a video backwards, then all the molecules would at some point end up in their starting shape. If you look at a chess position on move 43 and retrace all the moves made, you would end up at the starting position. If you retrace all the steps that made a rubix cube unmatched, then you would end up with a solved cube. If we wind back the clock of our universe, we would end up with the beginning of the big bang.

Nice hypothesis. But still don't accept them as a pair. Time passes, Entropy grows. It is almost as if they would just work together.


ps: Thanks for the lengthy post.
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Offline immortal feud

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Re: Gravity and Entropy don't pair up... https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67180.msg1289193#msg1289193
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2019, 08:41:42 am »
there are a few scientific inaccuracies and logical inconsistancies in this that i feel like i should share my 2 cents on.

firstly there is no two dimensionality to temprature there is only how much heat you have relative to everything else ( please no one well achktually me on negative temprature) so you cant think of fire as positive heat and say water is the opposite of that, water and even ice have the same positive thermal energy that fire does, just less of it.

"Gravity bending is as straight-forward as it gets: you push things, you pull things, that's it." Nope just pull. Gravity strictly does not pull.

as far as picking an example of breaking something and being unable to fix it glass is a really poor choice

as wyand said entropy only never decreases in an isoated system. with your example of air molecules in a box; put the box in liquid helium and then the hot air inside warms the box which warms the liquid helium, this flow of energy cools the air inside the box and the gas condenses into a liquid. if there is also gravity the molucles will be nicely ordered on one side of the box :)

onto why gravity and entropy do pair as opposites.
if you want to think of entropy as disorder then gravity is definitely the most ordering of the 12 elements. Look out into the universe, the average density of the universe is less than 6 protons per cubic meter yet in some parts the mass concentration is 10^45 times higher, this is INCREDIBLY ordered and it is because of gravity. in the eventual heat death of the universe when entropy is at maximum and all the black holes have evaporated there will be no net gravitational pull on anything anywhere.
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Offline OyekTopic starter

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Re: Gravity and Entropy don't pair up... https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67180.msg1289194#msg1289194
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2019, 10:49:46 am »


As Time passes, Entropy grows.




Isn't that the point though? Time passes because we can't do anything about it, but what if we have an Avatar the Last Airbender who can control  :time instead of  :air. Wouldn't that also give him crucial control over the time-dependent entropy?


Freezing up time will stop the entropy from growing further. Making time flow backwards will reverse things to their initial state. Even if those two are not an option, then slowing down time should atleast keep entropy at bay. He who can control the passing of time would have control over the spreading of entropy.


Plus, I can't imagine any way where  :entropy and  :gravity would be the ones opposite. You said people think  :entropy dismantles things and  :gravity glues them together; that's where this pair came from. But if I had to go with that scenario, then all my  :entropy benders can do is break things into a million tiny pieces. I feel like that would make  :entropy users one-trick ponies and would not really be interesting as a story (as opposed to the unpredictable outcomes you can get from Mutate). And even then, I'm not sure  :gravity would be able to glue the broken items back into their original shape (I visualize gravity pulling everything inwards to only one specific point in space). You'd be fixing things so much more cleanly with a time reverse spell.
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Re: Gravity and Entropy don't pair up... https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=67180.msg1289219#msg1289219
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2019, 04:07:15 pm »
Well, at the end of the day, the Elements are more about thematic concepts than scientific ones, and you can spin themes any way you want. As long as you can justify it, it should end up working out. I look forward to seeing what you write! Will this be a LitRPG style, or something more conventional?
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