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Offline Xinef

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Re: Hope / Hope https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3977.msg38787#msg38787
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2010, 08:39:56 pm »
I think if any element should have the best shield of all, it should be :earth ... though in elements it seems to be more offensive than defensive... which seems strange in my opinion. But anyway :light and :gravity could be second in my opinion.

I don't know how strong/weak :light is, because I never played mono-light, but as far as I see hope works really well in duo and trio decks, also a good alternative to bone wall in rainbows, but it seems too hard to counter...

Most damage reducing shields can be countered easily with high attack creatures.
Gravity shield can be countered with small creatures.
Other shields approximately half damage (procrastination, ice shield, dusk mantle).
Fire shield... depends on deck using it, but still possible to withstand with most decks.
Most of the above can be countered with permanent control, unless protected
Bone wall, on the other hand is good only if you already have control over the field, otherwise it is easily destroyed by creatures, so it is more of a 'when you already have control, make it stay so', rather than helping to establish control.
Also all shields can be countered with momentum, but in this case I would say elements with healing have advantage, because normally the damage that goes through is small enough to heal with bonds/SoG/miracle/vampire/antimatter/etc

But hope seems to be pretty immune to most forms of counter. Can not be destroyed, good against small creatures and good against big creatures, good in early game and good in late game... against momentum miracles might prove a problem.
Ok, creature control solves the problem of late game - killing all the light emitting creatures makes hope an average shield counterable with high attack creatures... but I guess most mono light decks will use luciferined light drags, so will be hard to remove from play, especially by other mono decks. When on the other hand we pit a duo/trio deck against a duo/trio hope deck, the duo/trio deck might have better creature control for example, but duo/trio hope deck will probably have ways to protect luciferined creatures... so I guess any way hope is the hardest shield to counter. And making the best shield also the hardest to counter is in my opinion OP.

So it needs nerfing, either making it less powerful, or (preferably) easier to counter. For example add some conditions when it is destroyed... but I would suggest to link these conditions to the amount of :light the player has (something similar do dissipation shield), because it is strongly linked to :light production, so it would make sense.

Creature control. And I know what you're going to say, "but what if they're made untargetable?" Simple. Making them untargetable, either with Anubis or Aether Nymph or Quint will require the use of one or two more elements, which balances it out just fine. If someone is willing to use those extra elements, and actually manages to get the shield up and the creatures protected, then by all means, they SHOULD win the match.
Light Dragon + Luciferine/Light Nymph + Guardian Angel/Archangel requires only light, and is still HARD to counter with creature control. All these have a lot of hp and angels can deal with infection for a long time, so you either need a number of damaging spells or an already grown devouring creature or lobo to counter it, but still hard to counter in my opinion.
May the force of the D4HK side be with U ^_^
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Offline Glitch

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Re: Hope / Hope https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3977.msg38792#msg38792
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2010, 09:01:27 pm »
I hereby present the only real evidence one can present in Elements.  A deck that beats rainbow with mastery without playing any heals.  (I know there's a miracle in my hand, and there are heals in the deck, you'll just have to trust me, I never used a heal.)


icybraker

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Re: Hope / Hope https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3977.msg38841#msg38841
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2010, 10:43:37 pm »
...

EPIC. Has this ever been done before? Maybe with an aether Phase Shield chain or something... regardless, this is epic. :) You just got the Icybraker Seal of Awesomeness.

Offline Glitch

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Re: Hope / Hope https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3977.msg38853#msg38853
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2010, 10:59:07 pm »
It's a pretty common deck idea, although I tend to prefer mine.  Mind if I put your seal of awesomeness in my sig?

...unless you mean the rainbow win.  It's probably been done.

icybraker

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Re: Hope / Hope https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3977.msg38854#msg38854
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2010, 11:01:05 pm »
Mind if I put your seal of awesomeness in my sig?
Not at all, be my guest. Also, if you don't mind, please press [ + ] next to my Super Gullibility Points. I need more.

To keep this on topic:

This is the first shield that doesn't have a shield in its picture! :) What does everyone think of that?

Astaroth

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Re: Hope / Hope https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3977.msg38857#msg38857
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2010, 11:08:56 pm »
Yes Xinef, you're right, but what I've been trying to say is that it's not terribly OP.
So you're saying that it's OP, but not "terribly OP?" I know you kind of have a bias with it being your element and all, but... well, look at Glitch's screenshot.  :o

Offline vrt

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Re: Hope / Hope https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3977.msg38861#msg38861
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2010, 11:13:10 pm »
This is the first shield that doesn't have a shield in its picture! :) What does everyone think of that?
By this logic, neither does Bonewall.
So long and thanks for all the fish!

Offline Glitch

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Re: Hope / Hope https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3977.msg38863#msg38863
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2010, 11:13:30 pm »
The creature control argument really breaks down when you think about the AI.  It'll never target your RoL's when there's a dragon in play.

Offline Xinef

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Re: Hope / Hope https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3977.msg38879#msg38879
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2010, 11:37:31 pm »
This is the first shield that doesn't have a shield in its picture! :) What does everyone think of that?
I think it looks like a forcefield covering your body... a kind of bodyshield :P
May the force of the D4HK side be with U ^_^
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AiBerry

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Re: Hope / Hope https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3977.msg38884#msg38884
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2010, 11:43:37 pm »
Creature control is one way around this, but how about just lobotomizer/Ulitharid? You don't need to knock out the creatures, you just need to get rid of their abilities. And usually RoL's/(skellies you can mass luciferin/rase) don't hurt too much and can be blocked/weakened by another shield, and dragons are still a force to be reckoned with whether or not they're producing light.

Of course Light Nymph kills this strategy, but that Nymph was looking to be completely useless anyhow (why would you need renewed luciferin, at a high cost, when the card is already free?)

I think Light needed Hope. I had dismissed luciferin as pretty much useless (aside from a light splash for miracle), and the Light Nymph as even more useless (again, why do you need repeat castings of luciferin for the expense of a nymph.) Hope pretty much saves bioluminescence.

icybraker

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Re: Hope / Hope https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3977.msg38888#msg38888
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2010, 11:46:17 pm »
So you want to Lobotomize 23 creatures? Be my guest :P

Fire Storm or something to that effect would be your best bet if they're not Quinted. Regardless, although Hope does solve the bioluminescence problem, it is also quite powerful. Remove immaterial status, perhaps make it cost more, and I'll be fine with it. :)

AiBerry

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Re: Hope / Hope https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3977.msg38899#msg38899
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2010, 11:58:02 pm »
I don't think that would be impossible to do, icy. Think about it.

1. Light Nymph + Hope = major defense, good luck.

But otherwise...

2. In the case of RoL/luciferin spammable creatures are weak. They can easily be blocked by a shield so they aren't hurting you, therefore giving anyone with an eternity and a rewindable creature plenty of time to lobotomize them. Then you go for the kill. If you aren't killing the light spammers, they take up room on the board and your opponent can't play more of them. Yeah, they can cast luciferin/rase again and it'll suck butt while you lobotomize them all again, but light doesn't have permanent control so keep that permafrost/other shield up. And if they rewind, then you rewind as well, eventually they'll run out of luciferins/rases. Any deck with sustainable miracles was going to be a long eternity requiring fight anyways.

3. If they're luciferin/rasing dragons, your problem isn't so much cracking their shield, it's keeping yourself alive. (a.k.a. Hope will not be the reason why you lose). Whether or not the dragons produce light, I don't think that extra light will be the difference between you killing them before they kill you. You can either survive the dragons or you can't. Besides, if they can spam dragons they probably have miracle so they'll recover even if you were able to hit them hard.

I'm basically arguing that Hope is survivable as it is now, but I'm not arguing for/against a nerf. xD

 

anything
blarg: