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Offline HelstonTopic starter

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Vaultbuilding brainstorm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59604.msg1206017#msg1206017
« on: September 18, 2015, 06:26:32 am »
We have no time remaining.

We need to get moving. Probably best to repost things from the titanpad you want to talk about here, week-long discussion's always a little easier on the forums.

Important Market Prices

The following tables are roughly sorted from right to left, top to bottom, as to how dangerous the cards are.

Creature Control
:aether Lightning90:time Reverse Time80:darkness Drain Life50:death Virus10
:aether Lobotomizer50:time Eternity70:darkness Parasite18:death Skull Shield20
:aether Parallel Universe45:time Scarab10:darkness Liquid Shadow10:death Plauge15
:air Thunderstorm20:time Pharaoh60:earth Basilisk Blood40:death Aflatoxin15
:air Owl's Eye65:time Procrastination15:earth Iridium Warden35:death Grey Nymph55
:air Unstable Gas45:water Ice Bolt15:earth Auburn Nymph55:gravity Otyugh50
:air Shockwave55:water Arctic Squid50:entropy Maxwell's Demon30:gravity Gravity Pull15
:fire Fire Bolt90:water Dry Spell15:entropy Chaos Seed20:life Thorn Carapace15
:fire Fire Shield30:water Flooding10:entropy Antimatter40:light0
:fire Rain of Fire40:water Freeze15:entropy Pandemonium35
:fire Rage Potion60:water Ice Shield20:entropy Purple Nymph50
:fire Red Nymph50:water Toadfish35:water Nymph Queen65
:water Mind Flayer16:water Nymph's Tears65

Permanent Control
:fire Deflagration85:earth Pulverizer50:entropy Butterfly Effect10
:darkness Steal85:gravity Shard of Focus170:water Ice Bolt (weapons)15

Shields
:aether Dimensional Shield100:death Skull Shield20:life Emerald Shield15
:air Wings70:death Bone Wall55:life Thorn Carapace15
:air Fog70:gravity Gravity Shield10:light Solar Shield10
:darkness Dusk Shield60:fire Fire Shield30:light Reflective Shield30
:water Ice Shield20:entropy Dissipation Shield30:light Hope60
:earth Titanium Shield25:time Procrastination15:underworld Shield10


Analysis of these prices:
Most of the stuff that's good against Life? That's pretty expensive. The bad news is teams will still probably bring plenty of them along to War. The top end decks are probably going to be as strong as ever, but the lower end is going to drop a bit, and teams that pack expensive decks could find themselves hurting for choice. So we probably can't take too much advantage of strong CC, shields and PC being expensive.

Where the CC gets interesting is the cheap stuff: Water, Entropy and Gravity. Water's defensive suite is cheap all-around, and we could get a nice stall out of it, aside from any other Water decks we make. Entropy is probably one to look out for -  Maxwell's and Antimatter are cheap, so we could see a couple of decks using that. Finally, I've always thought Gravity Pull was a little underrated, and I think that's still true now. Upgraded Oty's are also an option for more control.

Shields: Main thing to look out for is that Skull Shield, Ice Shield and Titanium Shield are all cheap, and tend to do well against Adrenaline and Mitosis.

PC: I think we're best avoiding too much PC. It's so expensive we're probably better off finding alternative ways around whatever shields or weapons we come up against.

One more observation for now (just of the prices in general): 1x SoG + 1x Heal is only slightly more expensive than 1x Miracle + 1x Sanctuary. There could be some SoG stalls built for a tinkerer (life mark, non-life pillars/pendulums).


Finally:
One more thing (and a wish that I had some decks built here, but alas that will have to come tomorrow) - we can fit A LOT of decks in the vault. A rough estimate might be 20 or so. That's over twice the normal for War. And is crazy.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 12:18:03 pm by Helston »
[15:02:07] Jocko [»] Helston: You killed a bunch of bunnies with nuclear weapons

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Re: Vaultbuilding brainstorm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59604.msg1206074#msg1206074
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2015, 03:30:33 pm »
Hope is another shield that's worthy of mention for being troublesome, especially since it usually also brings along :aether, can't be destroyed, and it seems like every team is making a habit of packing at least one in their vaults for War (even I have a code for a :life-based one saved somewhere >_>). When playing :life in Trenzalore I would typically either have to predict my opponent to not use Hope at all or find workarounds for it (read: Thorn Carapace) since otherwise it could wall my offense pretty easily with good to moderate starting draws. It's a gimmick for most teams since it oftentimes requires a forced :aether trio but if RNG is in the other team's favor, the matchup will turn sour pretty quickly. The deck that I used in Trenazlore for combating Hope (and :light in general) was a simple mono :life with Mitosis Giant Frogs that used Heals to get rid of excess damage while Thorn Carapace got rid of :light producers. I didn't use SoGs in these cases because Heals actually are more efficient in the short term and improved survival quite a bit.

Tinkerer is something that I've been considering quite a bit lately and it seems to be the best use of decks with SoG thus far, as most other decks aren't going to want to use a :life mark. It also gives us the potential to create a pretty nasty :light / :life stall using Miracles, Sancs, SoDs, SoGs, etc.

Though my previous experiences with :life in War have been that every team's answer seems to be to throw Dims at us even when there are better options, I have a feeling that denial decks are going to be a lot more rampant since Shard of Focus is now fair game for just about every team to use. SoFo's increase in usage is also going to make Gravity Pull increase in usage as well, which can potentially spell ruin for some of our rushes.

While I still expect teams to pack a hell of a lot of Dim Shields, I also believe we have a lot more ways to deal with them now that shards have become an option. Some of these solutions (such as SoFo) are obvious but then there are also other niche options that I would like to look into. For instance, some time ago I was considering a deck which relied on SoV to whittle down the opponent's HP while they hid behind Dims with Drain Life for last minute kills and Heals to help stall out the opponent's damage.

Two other shards worth mentioning are Shard of Freedom and Shard of Patience. While SoFr helps against our common shields reducing damage problem, both of these shards also help reduce the problems that we will have versus creature control.

For the other shards...
Shard of Sacrifice has the potential to be useful if we create a pseudo-Poison Dials type of deck that uses Heals in place of SoDs for giving back HP to use SoSa again. Though I expect most teams to pack Purify specifically for SoSa (and they admittedly may use Purify against us simply because of our ability to use Forest Scorps...), I don't expect most teams to expect us of all teams to use SoSa.
I only see Shard of Readiness being useful if we choose to use Pharaoh and Scarab spam with Feral Bonds or if we somehow can actually use Mitosis Golden Nymphs. Otherwise I've personally found it faster to just use Life's creatures with Mitosis even though SoR allows for double the fun.
I don't see Shard of Bravery being useful. Most of our rushes are consistent enough to where the inclusion of :fire won't help improve consistency and speed, though I suppose there is a merit to using it to draw Deflags when RNG doesn't seem to want to provide any. The idea of improving our opponent's draws doesn't really appeal to me either.
Shard of Wisdom might be useful if we can somehow get a deck with Immortals (or Phase Dragons though their cost is ungodly), Dims and Heals/SoGs to work. A possible choice for tinkerers.
Shard of Integrity... is probably too unreliable for us to use with our 50% in-element restriction. I actually did create an SoG + SoI deck for last Trials while I was a STANDIN but it's just too unreliable and gimmicky for me to have wanted to use it. It has potential with support from Auburn Nymphs though.
Shard of Serendipity is far too random to make use of it here. We'll want to reduce the amount of Nova taken (because they're expensive as hell) as much as possible anyways.

I'll add more thoughts as more discussion occurs. Though I have been busy this week getting adjusted to my new position as a TA for my university, classes have been cancelled for all of next week, meaning I can devote nearly all of my time to assisting with vault building.
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Offline entropystarrover

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Re: Vaultbuilding brainstorm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59604.msg1206093#msg1206093
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2015, 05:14:16 pm »
can we use a  :life/ :air combo? firefly queens and emphatic bonds, with a couple of rustlers to convert  :light quanta from the fireflies  to  :life. Owl's eyes are always useful...and shards of freedom too
War 9 Team :life

Offline HelstonTopic starter

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Re: Vaultbuilding brainstorm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59604.msg1206824#msg1206824
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2015, 06:31:37 am »
From the titanpad, here's the decks we're looking for so far as well as summary of any comments. Missing pendulums/pillars are because they're free.

18195 points to spend

Firestall: 1965, 1815 if we use rage pots instead of firebolts
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5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c3 5c3 5c3 5cq 5cq 5cq 5cq 5cq 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f6 5f6 5f6 5f7 5f7 5f7

Very expensive, but has had a lot of success in the past. Gets better with tinkerer.


Frogtal: 690, +90 for each extra Lightning in vault
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5c2 5c2 622 622 622 622 624 624 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae


Adrenastaves: 740
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5c5 5c5 5c5 5c5 5c5 5c5 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5oi 5oi 5oi 5oi 5oi


Adrenatitans: 625
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55s 55s 55s 55s 55s 55t 55t 5c2 5c2 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 7n2 7n2 7n2 7n2


AMScorps: 535
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4vo 4vo 500 500 500 5c3 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c8 5c8 5c8 5c8 5c8 5c8


ImmoStomp (from will): 1595
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4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 55u 5bv 5bv 5bv 5bv 5c1 5c1 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5f9 5f9 5f9 5fa 5fc 5fc 5fc 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae 7dp 7dp 8pn
Very inconsistent, not likely to bring


GravyStomp: 1220
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4vj 4vj 4vj 55u 5bu 5bv 5bv 5bv 5bv 5c1 5c1 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5fa 745 745 745 74e 74e 74e 8pl
(I haven't really looked at this one, going to do so tonight)


MutationStomp: 1546
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4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vl 4vl 4vl 5bu 5bv 5bv 5bv 5bv 5c1 5c1 5c7 5c7 5c7 6u1 6u1 6u1 6u6 6u6 6u6 8pj
Very expensive for what we get out of it.


Darkness Duo (stallier): 1022
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5bt 5bt 5bt 5c8 5c8 5c8 5c8 5c8 5c8 5up 5up 5up 5v1 5v1 7t8 7t8 7tb 7tb 8pt


Darkness Duo (rushier): 977
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5bt 5bt 5bt 5bt 5c0 5c0 5up 5up 5up 5v1 5v1 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae 7tb 7tb 8pt


Chaos Frogs: 699
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4vl 4vl 4vl 5bt 5bt 5bt 5c9 5c9 6u2 6u2 6u2 6u2 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae 8pj
Mitosis is interchangeable with adrenaline, given what we want the deck to do.


Warden Stall: 804
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594 594 594 594 594 594 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c3 5c3 5c3 5c3 5c5 5c5 5c9 5c9 77m 77m 77m 77m 77m 77m 8pm
43 card deck


Poison Heal: 940
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52q 52q 52q 52r 52r 52r 52r 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 718 718 718 718 718 718 8pk
Can also use SoSa


Immorush (from d2d): 894
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5bv 5bv 5bv 5bv 5bv 5bv 5c9 5c9 5f6 5f6 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5fa 5fa 5fa 5fa 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae
Gets 7ttw at best, "so blegh"


SoFr FFQs: 1270
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5c7 5oj 5oj 5oj 5oj 5oj 5oj 7an 7an 7an 7nq 7nq 7nq 7nq 7nq 8pr
Comes down to just cost of SoFr if other FFQ decks are included (900 for 5). Hits hard, fast & resistant to CC.


FFQ with Hope: 660
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5lk 5lk 5lk 5lk 5oj 5oj 5oj 5oj 5oj 5oj 7ai 7ai 7ai 7ai 7ai 7ai 8pr


FFQ Stall without Hope: 520
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5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5oj 5oj 5oj 5oj 5oj 5oj 7am 7am 7am 7am 7am 7am 8pr


Elite Queens:
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5c2 5oc 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5p0 5p0 5p0 5pu 5pu 7ai 7ai 7ai 7ai 7ai 7n3 7n3 7n3 7n3 7n3 7n3 8pr
Unlikely to work being in the vault because of the nymphs.

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4sn 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5de 5de 5de 5de 5od 5od 5od 5od 5om 5om 5om 5om 5om 7mt 7n3 7n3 7n3 7n3 7n3 8pr
Sample build with UGs dragonflies probably not necessary
Can also bring 3-4 miracles with FFQs for huge amounts of healing.


Mitogolems: 558
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5bt 5bt 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c5 5c9 5c9 5c9 77a 77a 77a 77a 77a 77a 8pm


Wizelsnarf: 665
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55p 55p 55p 55s 55s 5bt 5bt 5bt 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 74b 74b 74b 74b 8pl


Nymph's Tears: 440
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5c1 5c1 5c1 5c1 5c1 5c1 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5i4 5i4 5i4 5ig 5ig 5ig 5io 5jm 5jm 7bu 7bu 7bu 7bu 7bu 7bu 8pp
Can vary the number of pillars/pendulums, Tears/Nymphs. Can also go tinkerer and build a mono-water or maybe have some bonds.


Devtosis: 710
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5c6 5c6 5c6 5c9 5c9 5c9 5c9 5c9 5ul 5ul 5um 5um 5up 5up 7t6 7t6 7t6 7t6 8pt
Becomes significantly better with tinkerer, but not bad without


SoV Stall: 1285
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5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c3 5c3 5c5 5c5 5c5 5us 5us 5vi 5vi 7t8 7t8 7u2 7u2 7u2 7u2 8pt
33 card deck. Anti dim shield. Customisable based on opponent, can also be used vs non-Stone Skin stalls. Super slow and has bad matchups vs Fire and any continuous PC


RoL/Hope: 1145
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5c5 5c5 5c5 5lk 5lk 5lk 5ll 5ll 622 622 622 622 624 624 7ae 7ae 7jp 7jp 7jp 7jp 8pu
31 card deck.


Healing Immortals: 1260
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5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 61s 61s 61s 61s 61s 61s 62m 62m 816 816 816 816 8pu
CC resistant, gets past Dims, not sure what else it's good for


Pulvy Grabbow: 1880
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4vh 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 590 590 590 590 590 5bs 5bs 5c1 5c1 5c7 5c7 5de 5de 5de 5de 5on 77f 77f 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae 8pm
Life Grabbows tend not to be too good, this works out alright though. Might want a second Lightning/Shockwave to handle SoFo


Airstall: 1385
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5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c5 5c5 5c5 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5oc 5oc 5oi 5oi 5ol 5ol 5ol 5ol 5on 5on 5on 5on 5on 5on 5oo 5oo 5oo 7n8 7n8 7n8 8pr
Good matchup vs entropy, also gives more cards for FFQ decks


Waterstall: 770
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5bt 5bt 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c3 5c3 5c3 5c3 5c3 5c5 5c5 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5i7 5i7 5i7 5i8 5i8 5i8 5i8 5i8 5i8 5ia 5ia 5ia 5ia 5ia 5ia 8pp
No idea if this is any good, also haven't tried with SoG


Tinker Nymph's Tears:
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5ia 5ia 5ib 5ib 5ib 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 8pp
[15:02:07] Jocko [»] Helston: You killed a bunch of bunnies with nuclear weapons

Offline HelstonTopic starter

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Re: Vaultbuilding brainstorm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59604.msg1206878#msg1206878
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2015, 04:55:51 pm »
Made a copy of the blank vault, put most of the decks here in it. This was a quick example to get an idea where we were at. Link~

Couple of notes:
  • We'll be taking 24 heals in our final list. We're using a lot in these decks.
  • There's not too much using Horned Frog or Cockatrice, but added 24 of each anyway. They're cheap, can be added (preferably upped) to fill in almost any deck, and worst case scenario are easy discard fodder.
  • We're only just over the 50% life component of the vault, so cuts need to come from non-life cards as well as life cards
  • This is comes out to ~1200 points over the limit, so not everything included here can make the final cut.
  • We're also using a lot druidic staves, and adrenalines
  • Added some utility cards here and there
  • Branches out into every non-Time element, so we should have salvage options

Decks included are:
Firestall
Frogtal
Adrenastaves
Adrenatitans
AMScorps
MutationStomp (using cards from other Entropy decks)
Darkness Duo (only included darkness cards once for the two examples)
Chaos Frogs
Warden Stall
Poison Heal
SoFr FFQs, FFQ w/ Hope, FFQ w/o Hope. There's only 9 6 FFQs though, because that's the max we're unlikely to take two FFQ decks in any given round.
Mitogolems
Wizelsnarf
Nymph's Tears
Devtosis
SoV Stall
RoL/Hope

EDIT: Removing SoV Stall, Poison Heal and extra FFQs would put us at 17,889, enough for ~6 more cards.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 02:29:01 am by Helston »
[15:02:07] Jocko [»] Helston: You killed a bunch of bunnies with nuclear weapons

 

anything
blarg: