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Offline GlitchTopic starter

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Vault Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13948.msg176166#msg176166
« on: October 14, 2010, 01:42:56 pm »
Alright, right off the bat, this needs to be discussed.

Things I learned from last war:

1.  Deck out decks are successful decks.
-Because you always discard the same number of cards regardless of how big your deck was, thick decks protect good cards.  E.G, if you were playing a 36 card deck with 6 phase shields, you could keep those shields forever.
2.  Pendulums, Pendulums, Pendulums
-Taking off element pillars is a mistake.  If you lose those pillars you lose whatever cards of that element you planned on playing, and if you lose those cards, the pillars become useless.  Pendulums, on the other hand, are a life card that will /always/ be useful in a duo deck.  As an added bonus, a stolen pendulum doesn't benefit the enemy, unless they have the same deck.  Eat that, steal/mindgate decks.
3.   Keep track of opponent's vaults and opponents.
-I can't tell you how many battles we lost because we weren't paying attention.  Several times our opponent's decks were really predictable but because we weren't paying attention, we walked into a defeat.
4.  Versatility
-Life /needs/ to think about PC/CC.  It's something we're bad at.  Steals and deflags are an ace in the hole, and used right, can make or break a game.  Our opponent doesn't see them coming, so let's drop them when they're guard is down.
5.  Lifebow
-Near the end of the war, we'll be left with a pile of cards with no apparent deck to make with them.  Whether we got those cards through salvage, or we just picked bad cards, we need to be able to win with them.  Save six novas for that deck, and maybe a couple of fallen elves.
6.  Don't Procrastinate
-The more time we have to look at your deck idea, the better.  We can get in play testing, suggest changes, and look at how they would counter the opposing element.  We can't change a bad deck we didn't see.

So here, I guess, we talk about what cards we want in the vault, so the actual vault thread can be for changes.

I propose we use only life pillars and pendulums, using different marks to duo.  Dark/life adrenaline deck allows for steals, which is nice, and we can either go with hyper devourers or hyper vampires.  Deflags are useful, but building a deck around them?  Not a good idea.  KDZ has a kickass fractal frog deck that uses pendulums.  I don't think we should take my deck from the first trials, because it doesn't work without light pillars or upgraded rays.  Rustlers are also a bad pick, because they have to duo with pure light, and the best way to do that is with luciferin, which we can't take that much of.  They're best use is in a FFQ deck.  Air/life is a great pick, by the way.  Flying staves is a pretty unstoppable combo, FFQ is a great deck unupgraded, and shockwaves provide CC that life really needs.  So I'm thinking we take entropy, darkness, aether, air, and water as our potential duos.

Thoughts?

Daxx

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Re: Vault Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13948.msg176202#msg176202
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2010, 02:32:48 pm »
In no particular order:

From :fire:
The control cards. Deflag, RoF, Rage Potion, hell - even Fire Bolts. Comboed with Heals, a Staff, and a few Emerald Dragons (which can be Raged) and you have a relatively good control deck with some punch at the end.

From :aether:
Quint, Fractal, Dim Shields and PUs. All good cards which combo well with our own.

From :darkness:
Steal and Drain Life, possibly Devourers, possibly Vampires. Vampire Stilleto is one of the best weapons to splash for.

From :water:
Purify - there will be poison decks out there. Flooding is excellent CC especially against decks we know will be using fractal. Of course, nymph's tears gives us the quite-useful green nymph, which would fit well in an adrenaline-based deck. Finally Ice Shield is a standby shield.

From :entropy:
Unfortunately we have no good targets for Butterfly Effect. Fallen Elfs are a must, however, as are novas for later in the War when we're building rainbow decks. Antimatter is expensive, but a kill card against certain decktypes which rely only on a few big creatures to deal damage. We'll also be facing monos and duos a lot, so Discords might help.

From :earth:
Protect Artifact. Basilisk Blood. Earthquake. Titanium Shield. Plate Armor. All solid choices.

From :death:
Plague/Boneyard/Vulture, but we have no really good CC to help fuel these along. Death probably isn't the best choice for us.

From :gravity:
Don't underestimate Chimaera, especially for the finisher in a creature-spam deck. Momentum will carry us through vs. a number of tough shields when slapped on a Dragon or something with adrenaline. We should also think about a couple of black holes for use later in the war when our opponents are packing rainbow decks, or we're up against Team Underworld. Other than that, Gravity Pull is decent CC, and Gravity Shield is surprisingly effective against certain decktypes. Our good friend Mr. Otyugh is a potential pick, too.

From :light:
Light doesn't have much to offer us other than blessing and miracles, and it should be possible to fuel those with Rustlers if we need them.

From :air:
FFQ is a shoo-in, no questions asked. Flying weapon too, since flying staves are really nasty. Wings is a nice shield, but we don't really have many fliers to pair it with. Shockwave is really good CC, especially against unupgraded decks.

From :time:
There isn't a huge amount for us here, but Dune Scorpion is a nasty nasty card. Paired with our own scorpion we can rack up some serious poison damage. Reverse time is quite useful, Hourglass is strong if we're running heavy-time or we're later on in the war, an Eternity or two might be good for late-game rainbows also.

Offline willng3

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Re: Vault Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13948.msg176215#msg176215
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2010, 02:55:45 pm »
A few others I thought deserved mentioning:
Lightning, essentially the most powerful CC in the game is both cheap and effective.
Freeze:  A good stall tactic should be considered.
Aflatoxin:  A deck combination consisting of Aflatoxin and Adrenaline/Green Nymphs is an extremely efficient method for stalling our opponents completely.  Adrenaline Malignant cells speeds up the spawn rate dramatically, and with the right shield this is quite the method for sticking a nail in our opponent's coffin.
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hrmmm

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Re: Vault Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13948.msg176221#msg176221
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2010, 03:02:03 pm »
good points Gl1tch.
im puttin in my thoughts:
some combos i was thinking about:

:life/ :entropy : maybe the most powerfull combination for a control deck. BE, Antimatter, Maxwell, Pandemonium, Discord (or even a diss. shield) are strong partners. novas for support a trio-deck
:life/ :death : aflatoxin+adrenaline? - quick field control on opponents/massiv healing with bonds
:life/ :gravity : monumentum, gravity pull -> a dangerous mix with adrenaline
:life/ :earth : earthquake (of corse), basilisk blood/plate armor (give us protection for adrenalined frogs e.g.), enchant artifact, shriecker/graboid (very nice with adren, but vulnerable with 3hp)
:life/ :life: good old mono frog rush. fast, but well known and stopped by shields or mass cc.
:life/ :fire : rage potions and deflags
:life/ :water : freeze, spirits, ice shield (unfortunally failed last war)
:life/ :air : owls eye (maybe flying with adren). wings, ffq
:life/ :light : i woudnt take rustlers (to obvious and voulnerable), maybe a luciferine/hope dragon combo? miracle/heals for a stall?
:life/ :time : maybe good for a stall ->rewind/sundials/procrastination/mass creatures with bonds/heals
:life/ :darkness : adrenalined devourers, steal, duskshield, drain of life
:life/ :aether : dim.shield chain + adrenalied dragons + pu, lobo, thunderbolt<- best single cc
(...)
a note on butterfly effect:
rustler/spirit are the only life creatures for BE, paired with a elf maybe a good combo for a later rainbow

and i totally forgott the hax-shield: fog, cheap and dirty

wizelsnarf

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Re: Vault Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13948.msg176307#msg176307
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2010, 05:12:36 pm »
Gl1tch seems to know what he is talking about.

I totally agree with the pendulums. They are way more versatile. We should try not to rely on pillars too much.


I also agree about our prime duo elements... Air, Entropy, Aether are should be our standbys.



A thought on fire: A spark/immolation deck sounds crazy at the moment but for later on when we are doing a lifebow it might be worth considering. It would allow us to do a fire/life combo. That could power our explosions and give us a little quanta for thunder bolts or something. Of course we would need to get our life pendulums in there + frogs, forest spirits, adren etc.

hrmmm

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Re: Vault Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13948.msg176446#msg176446
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2010, 09:22:43 pm »
do we know actually, when phase 2 vault, will be over?
am i right, we need 9 (or more) decks and take this, as the base for our vault?

i think this is most important. because we might run in some deckbuilding chalenges with 9 decks:

So, if I'm not mistaken, we have 421 cards in our starting vault (plus or minus any bonuses or penalties).

This means 211 cards must be from :life, and the rest can be from elsewhere.
we gain +12 cards from the propaganda thx to kdz, gl1tch and  pepokish (good work!)
means we should have at minimum 433 cards (min. 217 from life)
life has 12 different cards (without pillars/pendulums)
we can take 24 copys of each cards = 4 decks with 6 copies from 1 card
if we have an average of 12 pillars/pendulums per deck = 108 pillars/pends

looking at this i have a feeling that it is important to have at least 9 decks, before we can determine the vault.

Offline GlitchTopic starter

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Re: Vault Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13948.msg176450#msg176450
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2010, 09:31:11 pm »
I agree, that's one of the biggest mistakes I made last time.

Instead of making specific decks, I made vague flexible decks, so I would up with a bunch of leftover crap.  These decks need to be varying, we can't get stuck with just one strategy.  We should have:

--At least one deck-out deck:
Malignant cell+Emphatic Bond?
Stave Deck?

--At least one rush deck:
Adrenal Frogs?
Creature Spam?
Spirits?

--At least one anti-CC deck:
Fractal something?
Quinted spirits?

--At least one anti-deckout deck:
Chimera?
Poison from scorpions?

--At least one CC deck:
FFQ deck with shockwaves?
Fractal deck with bolts?

--At least one PC deck:
Dark/life with steals?
Fire/life with deflag?
Butterfly Rustlers?
It's a stretch... but pulvy?

--At least one anti-PC deck
Pillarless rustler deck?
Malignant Cell + Jade Shield?

--At least one panic deck
Probably the rainbow + Elf deck.

That leaves two more deck types.  Maybe dominate deck, with spirits as the win condition, but ice shield and flooding to assist.  Throw in optional purifies or other healing types, it's none too shabby. 

The other thing we have to think about: rares.  Which ones do we take?  I've got two life nymphs, but will they burn a hole in the vault?  Will we waste cards protecting them?  What about KDZ's watermark?

Nadrin

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Re: Vault Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13948.msg176467#msg176467
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2010, 10:05:19 pm »
I realize this isn't strategy, but I can test decks, but I'm not overly good at building them. If you need something tested, I usually have the time and I certainly have the cards. :D I also agree with the choices, although slight trios combining :aether :air :life might be interesting ( phase spiders and lightning from :aether, Wings and FFQ's from :air, and whatever from :life, E.B., so on, possibly using Hope shield powered by FF's (will attempt))

hrmmm

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Re: Vault Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13948.msg176470#msg176470
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2010, 10:11:00 pm »
we should also consider the we counter more then 1 heavy cc deck in one round (entropy, air, fire, death, ...).
best position for us would be 9 well formed, dangerous and opponent-specific decks.
and the posibility to build more variations of it, if we have to salvage.
if we dont want/cant build 3 or 4 anti cc decks, we might going for a risk match in the first round (like trying to rush air. e.g.).
but thats something for a strategy post.

i keep thinking about your deck-types, gl1tch.

Daxx

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Re: Vault Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13948.msg176476#msg176476
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2010, 10:22:02 pm »
we should also consider the we counter more then 1 heavy cc deck in one round (entropy, air, fire, death, ...).
If the other elements are smart, they will probably pack heavy creature-control vs. us, as our major strength is with creatures which pack a punch fast. Most elements have at least something that can slow us down and can trivially splash for it if they don't; maybe we should take this into account.

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Re: Vault Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13948.msg176484#msg176484
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2010, 10:31:20 pm »
sorry iv been gone :P thanks for starting this gl1tch

hrmmm

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Re: Vault Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13948.msg176491#msg176491
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2010, 10:40:40 pm »
If the other elements are smart, they will probably pack heavy creature-control vs. us, as our major strength is with creatures which pack a punch fast.
(...)
im sure they will plan aswell. and they have pendulums aswell.
maybe its worth to think about having decks they dont expect from life.
like heayy buffed stuff? blessed, monumentumed adrenalined dragons?
chimera sounds pretty neat aswell.

 

anything
blarg: