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Offline willng3

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Re: Round 2 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32461.msg411481#msg411481
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2011, 12:58:12 pm »
Trying that right now, noticing my draws are becoming increasingly inconsistent; it's hard for me to sit multiple turns with this deck and not draw a Supernova, Discord, etc.  While the Adren effect on Discord is pretty darn awesome, it's almost just as beneficial to use that Adren on a Frog with one Discord on the field.  So I'm not too concerned with being able to fly a Discord and get that combo off.

EDIT:  On second thought, I do really like reducing its weakness to PC.  Therefore I've also created this variation:
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
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4vl 4vl 4vl 4vl 55v 55v 5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5oi 5oi 5oi 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 77j 8pj

Not quite as much strength against gargantuan stalls, but it does seem more consistent.  I'm also finding it defeats Devtal much more often, while only dying due to 4 Pend + 2 Dev starting hands by the opponent while our deck draws 1 Pend or 0 SNs.
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Re: Round 2 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32461.msg411522#msg411522
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2011, 02:48:22 pm »
Interesting bit of info from our victorious Mango scout has arrived.

Quote
Team Darkness' vault contained:
Liquid Shadow   10
Earthquake   6
Acceleration   6
Obvious things we'll see are Accelervoodoo, Paragon (PU LS Black Dragons), quanta denial deck (Pests, EQ, Gargoyles for damage)
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Re: Round 2 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32461.msg411536#msg411536
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2011, 03:27:27 pm »
Interesting bit of info from our victorious Mango scout has arrived.

Quote
Team Darkness' vault contained:
Liquid Shadow   10
Earthquake   6
Acceleration   6
Obvious things we'll see are Accelervoodoo, Paragon (PU LS Black Dragons), quanta denial deck (Pests, EQ, Gargoyles for damage)
Well, I don't know you, but the info is rather underwhelming: I was already expecting all of those cards. The only thing I wouldn't have figured out was the exact number of LS in their Vault... :/ I am disappointed by the RNG that didn't spare more intresting secrets.

I'm currently testing the deck I posted before against a variety of Air decks (slight mod: -3 Emerald Dragons, +2 Thorn Carapace, +1 Druidic Staff). It is destroying Bonewall OE without many problems. I'll try some games against Bonewall OE with poison, Wings Recluse, Mono Air Rush, Mono Air splash with Deflags, Twin Blitz (Team Air's stallbreaker) and Aether Stall (Dims and Wings and Spiders and Lobos) [EDIT: Adrenastaves too].

EDIT: ok, report time. Everything except Twin Blitz works (almost) the same way: fast damage kills this deck, dragons are tough, too little healing and stall power, you are just outrushed by a terrible majority of decks. So this deck works well as a stall breaker (almost never loses to Bonewall decks or to the Aether duo), but doesn't work well against the more offensive decks. However, I think we can find something that works well. Stall decks can be killed with some Jade Dragons (9 hp are HUGE) and a couple Mitosis (I like 3 / 2, but we can vary as needed). Rush decks are mitigated by Thorn Carapace (I love that shield, I really do) but we need massive healing to cover it up. Adrenastaves in particular is dead the moment we play a Thorn, so they probably won't play that deck agaisnt us. If we were to pack a Thorn Carapace stall against Air with some Jade Dragons and Mitosis, we're golden. PC helps a lot though.
So, in short, Firestall would probably kill Air unless they counter it directly.
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Offline TheCrazyMango

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Re: Round 2 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32461.msg411582#msg411582
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2011, 07:04:49 pm »
this is the adrenacord deck im running,
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5c1 5c1 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c8 5c8 5oi 5oi 5oi 6u5 6u5 6u5 8pj
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Offline ak65ala

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Re: Round 2 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32461.msg411776#msg411776
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2011, 03:25:37 am »
Quick post, will add more if I get the time tonight.

Did a mock up of the decks we should field this round.  Things I have seen:
    We are low on pillars already.  We should convert at least 12 cards this round in case a disaster strikes (and regardless).We only have like 13 options, and modifying to other options take two or more of these decks and melding them.We need to be cautious about our life cards, we will be using most of them and don't want to lose the wrong ones.
Here is what I see our options as:
    Dim. Shield Splash (+lighting)Fractal + Lightning rushWings SplashAdrenavampsEarth stallMaxwell + DiscordGabby LifebowFire StallReverse Time SplashMonks and flying stavesWater & LifeHealing StallPoisoned Life

Here are my thoughts to this round:
Salvage 4 EQ, 3 life cards from our losing deck. 
Salvage 1 Arsenic and convert 5 of the other cards into pillars.

 :light: EQ splash
 :air: The firey dragon deck The Mormegil is working with
 :earth: Wings Splash
 :entropy: Grabby Life Bow
 :death: Water & Life
 :water: RT Splash
 :darkness: Monks
 :time: Adrenavamps

Out of time! The deck assignments can change, but I think the monks needs either myself or Willng3 to play for the upgrades.  Um... will post the decks I had built up most likely earliest tomorrow morning, but the most important thing to note is I have to convert 2 more cards including 5 from our winning salvage to be able to field these decks.  We need to think about this hard!

One more thing: I like the deck Willng3 and #s is working on, but I hate thinking about the discards and salvage if we lose with it.  One loss will tear through like 3 deck options we have.  The decks I have built up use 1 option and so we can discard, if they lose, appropriately and build that deck in the coming rounds.

Offline willng3

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Re: Round 2 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32461.msg411788#msg411788
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2011, 04:20:40 am »
Alright enough reflecting, time to add my two :electrum

:air - I think Morm is spot on with the Firestall idea.  If you ask me, those duels from last Round were part of a plan to set up their strategies for this Round.  Everyone should be able to note that every one of :air's decks were designed to break through defenses and pulverize the opponent's creatures.  I'd be willing to bet good money that during the next round Air is going to switch its tactics and go for a more defensive approach as an attempt to counter the decks that try to stop the creature blitzkrieg from taking place.  The best ways I could see to do this would be to a)  Use a stall (Light, FFQ, Bone Wall, etc.) b)  Use Quints to counter CC (kind of a weak strategy, but still viable) c)  Splash more control in with their rushes (AM, Lightning, etc.) or d)  Use stall breakers (EQ duo, PU Dragons, etc.).  Firestall answers almost all of these decks assuming that we add the right cards to the deck we're using.  DD has a certain love for Dragonflies, so Thorn Carapace would need to remain upgraded.  Rage Potions are recommended for the faster decks.  Our biggest problems with this deck would be facing Dragons.  I'm not the expert on stalls though, so I don't know what other cards we'd like to add; I've heard ideas of Mitosis Dragons, Bonds, and Heals.  Which build do we think would be most effective against the decks I've mentioned above?

:darkness - Darkness fell into my trap last round.  You see, the benefit of providing information for others to see is that because they know I am aware of our weaknesses they are inclined to assume that I will do everything within my power to cover up that weakness.  Therefore Devtal was a highly risky deck to use last Round.  I must say, however, that I was very surprised by Darkness's choice last Round.  Apparently they assumed we were going to go for a full out rush to prevent healing and denial antics, but what's more surprising is that the team itself didn't seem too enthusiastic about their deck choice either.  Are they lost for answers against us already?  Seems like an opportune time to catch them off guard.
Last Round we displayed two decks which were not designed to be breakneck rushes, but instead found ways to circumvent counter methods to those rushes.  This is enough information for opponents to believe that it is safe to take things at a slower pace.  I can see Darkness using several decks next Round and they're all either slow paced or focused on control.  One of the highest expectations is Devtal; our decks last Round probably demonstrated a weakness to quanta control which would make them a tasty snack for Devtal.  Easiest ways to counter Devtal are to either use a Sancstall or a Nova deck, with the former being the hardest counter of the two.  I've looked at all of the decks that Darkness used last War and the biggest counters that I could see against this deck would be another Sancstall (with Drain Life) or a PU Dragon deck.  If we choose to use Mitosis Crusaders in addition to Sanctuaries then neither of these two decks is a problem.  We can either use Thorn Carapace or Jade Shield here, but the idea of Stealing Thorn Carapace is obviously going to be problematic.  If we can't afford to use this fat of a deck due to vault restrictions then the Monk deck is probably our best bet.

:water - I'm forced to listen to Higurashi's wisdom regarding this element from last War.  Water has a very clear weakness to any decks that do not rely on creatures; the main reason they became such a feared Element last War is because people continued to use decks littered with creatures against them; Water is a very, very controlling Element so it makes sense that people lost so many times with those tactics.  However, there is another way to exploit that weakness without going completely creatureless:  Fractal.  Higurashi must have used Fractal decks 2 rounds in a row against Water last War and won each and every single one of those games.  Why?  Simple:  Even with the amount of control that Water possesses, it is near impossible to keep up with that kind of spamming power.  We can use Dim Shield to protect ourselves in case they do go rush on us and then use Frogtal to bring the pain; with the Deflag nerf, splashing PC is going to be much more difficult.  Discord is probably the biggest problem in this case, but unless they're using that funky Discord/BH deck from last War, Dim Shield is going to bind Discord back in place quite nicely.

:light - Really not sure about this one, but EQ seems like the obvious answer.  I don't know what kind of a build we'd want to use yet.

:time - The worst I could see them doing against us this round is either using a Scarab deck of some type, some duo with Wings, or a funky Rainbow similar to what they used last round.  AdrenaVamps sounds like a good answer here.

:entropy - This...is going to be difficult.  From my experience it's very, very difficult to counter any of Entropy's Nova decks with a Nova deck of our own.  But what other options do we have, honestly?  Sanctuary isn't as effective counter as you would would expect when you consider that their decks are practically built on getting out a Discord as fast as possible and denying the hell out of you.  BHs further complicate things.  On the opposite end of the spectrum they have pretty lethal stalls of their own to hit us with.  So do we try to build a specific counter to a deck in particular or do we try to hit them hard before they can hit us?  I'm thinking a Grabbow is the right way to go here.  However, based on experience from being on Team Aether and having to face Sancstalls countless times:  I highly advise that we bring 2 Arsenic with us.

:earth - Their decks seem built to counter Wings.  Morm speaks truth when he says that they can't counter every Wings deck though.  I'm going to assume that we're going to with a Dragon build for this.  I'll think about what this one needs a bit more.

:death - Elemental opposite...what do you have in store for us this time.  Water/Life duo seems like the obvious answer here...but I have my concerns.
1)  Aether duos.  They used quite a few against Life last War, one of which was able to beat a Water/Life duo.  Life did manage to beat a Dragon Fractal, but it seemed like that required a certain amount of luck to pull off.
2)  Discord/BH.  I don't think they'd want to use this against us this time, but who knows really.
Meh we really don't have many other options here.

For the record:  I'm not intending to use that denial deck during this round, it's a surprise tactic if nothing else and will likely only be needed when our Vault becomes more and more unstable.
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Offline ak65ala

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Re: Round 2 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32461.msg411806#msg411806
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2011, 05:08:43 am »
Either you read my post and that influenced your thoughts, or we are on the same page for most of the games, willing3.
 :air :darkness :time :entropy we seem to have the same ideas.  Let me reflect on your other answers:

 :water I like the idea of a fractal.  I think our fractal is one of the best and with dim shields, it can hold up against a lot they can bring out.  I'm concerned with the quanta balance (mostly using pendulums to power those expensive aether cards) but it should work.

 :earth Our other option beyond wings is to use a poison deck, the type we used against darkness.  Or we could splash lightnings, but that puts the deck on the defensive... and defense only wins a handful of some games. 

 :light EQ is easily the most disruptive against them quanta denial-wise.  The other option is using the splash of our RT and eternity.  Their creatures are expensive and they have no defense against a good reversal.  Creatureless decks are always something to note.

 :death Irony.  Adrenaline breaks down bonewall, but makes our creatures die faster from plague.  They are a fickle bunch.  Our life + water deck with a purify seems to be our best bet.  Other options would be using poison against them (risky but cunning) or splashing in lightnings and out rushing them.

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Re: Round 2 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32461.msg411901#msg411901
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2011, 11:47:19 am »
:light: EQ splash
 :air: The firey dragon deck The Mormegil is working with
 :earth: Wings Splash
 :entropy: Grabby Life Bow
 :death: Water & Life
 :water: RT Splash
 :darkness: Monks
 :time: Adrenavamps
Comments on this setup:
:light is predictable but works
:earth is the same
I don't like grabbybow vs :entropy.
I don't like being that predictable against :death
I don't like RT vs :water
I'm torn on Adrenavamps vs :time.

:air - I think Morm is spot on with the Firestall idea.  If you ask me, those duels from last Round were part of a plan to set up their strategies for this Round.  Everyone should be able to note that every one of :air's decks were designed to break through defenses and pulverize the opponent's creatures.  I'd be willing to bet good money that during the next round Air is going to switch its tactics and go for a more defensive approach as an attempt to counter the decks that try to stop the creature blitzkrieg from taking place.  The best ways I could see to do this would be to a)  Use a stall (Light, FFQ, Bone Wall, etc.) b)  Use Quints to counter CC (kind of a weak strategy, but still viable) c)  Splash more control in with their rushes (AM, Lightning, etc.) or d)  Use stall breakers (EQ duo, PU Dragons, etc.).  Firestall answers almost all of these decks assuming that we add the right cards to the deck we're using.  DD has a certain love for Dragonflies, so Thorn Carapace would need to remain upgraded.  Rage Potions are recommended for the faster decks.  Our biggest problems with this deck would be facing Dragons.  I'm not the expert on stalls though, so I don't know what other cards we'd like to add; I've heard ideas of Mitosis Dragons, Bonds, and Heals.  Which build do we think would be most effective against the decks I've mentioned above?
The main point for Air is that they either try to rush - and that requires a lot of devotion to a single deck archetype, which is what we saw last round - or are REALLY permanent based. OE, UG, Wings, Fogs, everything they do they rely on Permanents a lot. Firestall is a good answer because they don't like creatureless decks, suffer from heavy PC and can't answer to CC effectively. Any kind of stall they set up dies to heavy PC + Thorn. Quint dies to Thorn + healing. Control rushes die to Thorn + healing, especially with Firestall's CC (key point here being HEALING, as if we don't heal their damage, they can just wait and blitz us). Stall breakers kill us, but I don't expect one.
The main problem with Firestall is that we're going to need A LOT of things in there. We need lots of CC to stop their rush, healing to support Thorn, and Mitosis'd dragons to break through Bonewalls (poison + bonewall is faster than our Bolts damage). It'll be a pain to pack everything in a single deck.

Quote
:water - I'm forced to listen to Higurashi's wisdom regarding this element from last War.  Water has a very clear weakness to any decks that do not rely on creatures; the main reason they became such a feared Element last War is because people continued to use decks littered with creatures against them; Water is a very, very controlling Element so it makes sense that people lost so many times with those tactics.  However, there is another way to exploit that weakness without going completely creatureless:  Fractal.  Higurashi must have used Fractal decks 2 rounds in a row against Water last War and won each and every single one of those games.  Why?  Simple:  Even with the amount of control that Water possesses, it is near impossible to keep up with that kind of spamming power.  We can use Dim Shield to protect ourselves in case they do go rush on us and then use Frogtal to bring the pain; with the Deflag nerf, splashing PC is going to be much more difficult.  Discord is probably the biggest problem in this case, but unless they're using that funky Discord/BH deck from last War, Dim Shield is going to bind Discord back in place quite nicely.
I like Frogtal. Probably going to work, too, as I expect a CC heavy deck. I think this is one of the best places for you and AK, too.

Quote
:light - Really not sure about this one, but EQ seems like the obvious answer.  I don't know what kind of a build we'd want to use yet.
Be wary of their Pegasus Grabbybow and their Immo Golem deck. I hope they don't field those vs us.

Quote
:time - The worst I could see them doing against us this round is either using a Scarab deck of some type, some duo with Wings, or a funky Rainbow similar to what they used last round.  AdrenaVamps sounds like a good answer here.
I can see them running a Ghostal version against us: stallbreaker and Dim Shields kill us. Adrenavamps seems like a very good option. If we face Ghostmare, we can just steal those factories and we will probably prevail.

Quote
:entropy - This...is going to be difficult.  From my experience it's very, very difficult to counter any of Entropy's Nova decks with a Nova deck of our own.  But what other options do we have, honestly?  Sanctuary isn't as effective counter as you would would expect when you consider that their decks are practically built on getting out a Discord as fast as possible and denying the hell out of you.  BHs further complicate things.  On the opposite end of the spectrum they have pretty lethal stalls of their own to hit us with.  So do we try to build a specific counter to a deck in particular or do we try to hit them hard before they can hit us?  I'm thinking a Grabbow is the right way to go here.  However, based on experience from being on Team Aether and having to face Sancstalls countless times:  I highly advise that we bring 2 Arsenic with us.
I'm going to try something here. Like, a 3x SNbow with fast Sanctuaries and CC cards.

Quote
:death - Elemental opposite...what do you have in store for us this time.  Water/Life duo seems like the obvious answer here...but I have my concerns.
1)  Aether duos.  They used quite a few against Life last War, one of which was able to beat a Water/Life duo.  Life did manage to beat a Dragon Fractal, but it seemed like that required a certain amount of luck to pull off.
2)  Discord/BH.  I don't think they'd want to use this against us this time, but who knows really.
Meh we really don't have many other options here.
Water/Life is too predictable. They'll prepare for that one and for Grabbybow with Purify splash. Possibly even for a healing heavy deck. Also, they'll splash Plagues.
I'd ideally bring Firestall here too... .-. I don't know.
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Offline pikachufan2164Topic starter

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Re: Round 2 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32461.msg411905#msg411905
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2011, 12:00:18 pm »
Quote
:light - Really not sure about this one, but EQ seems like the obvious answer.  I don't know what kind of a build we'd want to use yet.
Be wary of their Pegasus Grabbybow and their Immo Golem deck. I hope they don't field those vs us.
As AK said, RT is also a viable option, since Light likes its buff decks and RT 2-for-1's them good. RT + Eternity also opens up wins by deckout against damageless stalls like The Immortal.


Feel free to use my Vault tracker spreadsheet to help plan out stuff: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuLG6-uKpq33dDMxbXZqSU5fcDNhbkNuSmFTcUV2UWc#gid=0

Simply put in decks into the Round 2 sheet, and S/D/C into the Round 1 S/D/C sheet. This is NOT tied to the official Vault spreadsheets, so we can sandbox and play around with stuff in here.


We'll also need to find a replacement for LifeLockable; have Kev and DD stated which people we can choose from for replacements?
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Re: Round 2 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32461.msg411992#msg411992
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2011, 04:11:59 pm »
As AK said, RT is also a viable option, since Light likes its buff decks and RT 2-for-1's them good. RT + Eternity also opens up wins b
I like this option - especially the Eternity one - as Diamond Shield is a likely option against us. The Immortal with some BBs or even Wardens to get rid of our Mitosis'd Dragons is a powerful option against us.
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Re: Round 2 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32461.msg411998#msg411998
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2011, 04:24:47 pm »
About the substitution - I've asked kev about it and he basically told me that he had something to talk to SG and dd about, but he'd get back to me ASAP.

Time duo sounds reasonable for Light.  Blessed Wardens are also countered nicely by Eternity/RT.

So it looks like we're still stuck on what to take against :entropy and :death.  I won't comment on Entropy's match up until I see if Morm was successful with his Sancbow idea.

However for :death I've been doing a lot of thinking...
There's no reason why they wouldn't expect us to use a Water duo against them.  It worked well last War, both ak and myself are fond of the synergy behind it.  It's way too obvious and when prepared for properly it's too easy to counter.
We don't have too many other options...but what if we tried a Death duo of our own?  I know it has the potential to give our opponents useful cards for their own use, but really, I think it responds to most of any Water/Life's counters pretty darn well.  Poison ignores Shields, Heals counter their own Poison damage, etc.  I really don't know what else we could use for this matchup.
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Re: Round 2 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32461.msg412025#msg412025
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2011, 05:37:00 pm »
I won't comment on Entropy's match up until I see if Morm was successful with his Sancbow idea.
No. Just no. Unreliable. Unstable. Terrible versus rushes. Slightly better against stalls, but not quite powerful enough. Basically, a great counterdeck to Discord that has absolutely nothing that saves it from anything else. Works wonders against 24 Amethyst Pillars / 6 Discords decks. .-.
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