Round 3 Support team discussion

[drolly]

This is going to be quite important and crucial, so I think an extra thread should be made for this.

Deadline for R3 support team battles: Support team battles have ended.

Non-rare cards we use(d) in Round 3:
— 5 attackers, 1 defender (not attacked), 2 relics

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55t 5bt 5c0 5c6 5c7 5c9 5ll 5lm 5oi 5ul 5um 5up 61r 61t 624 8pn 5og

Non-rare cards used in Round 3:
Sizes of support teams replaced by number of defenders.
Added decks from failed match between Earth and Gravity.

— 3 defenders, 3 relics, 6/6 matches included

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4vh 4vj 52h 58r 58u 590 594 5f6 5f9 5fc 5l9 5la 5lk 5lm 5of 5og 5up 5ut 61q 61r 61t 61v 620 622 8pu

Spoiler for Air:

— not attacked by our team, 3 relics, 5/5 matches included

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4vd 4vh 4vj 4vn 55q 55t 561 590 5c1 5f6 5fc 5od 5of 5og 5oi 5oo 61r 61t 622 8pr

Spoiler for Darkness:

— not attacked by our team, 2 relics, 6/6 matches included

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593 5ld 5lf 5ll 5lm 5oi 5rk 5ru 5ul 5um 5uo 5up 5uq 5us 5ut 5v1 61q 622 8pt

— 3 defenders, 3 relics, 6/6 matches included

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4vn 52h 52j 52l 52o 52r 52t 593 5oo 5uo 5up 5uq 5v1 61q 61t 622 8pk

Spoiler for Earth:

— not attacked by our team, 2 relics, 6/6 matches included

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4ve 4vj 58q 58r 58s 590 591 593 594 595 5c1 5f6 5fb 5fc 5lm 5og 5rk 5ru 5v1 61q 61t 622 8pm

— 1 defender, 2 relics, 6/6 matches included

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4vd 4ve 4vf 4vg 4vh 4vj 4vn 4vp 52o 52r 55v 590 593 5c1 5f6 5lm 5og 5oo 5up 5v1 61q 8pj

— 1 defender, 3 relics, 6/6 matches included

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4vj 52o 52r 590 5f2 5f4 5f5 5f6 5f8 5f9 5fa 5fb 5fc 5fe 5i7 5i9 5ii 5l9 5lm 5og 61q 8po

Spoiler for Gravity:

— 5 supporters, 1 relics, 5/5 matches included

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4tc 52r 52t 55l 55m 55n 55p 55r 55t 55v 562 58t 595 5oi 61q 61r 61t 622 8pl

— 1 defender, 2 relics, 5/5 matches included

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5f4 5f5 5fb 5l9 5la 5ld 5le 5lf 5lk 5ll 5lm 5oi 61r 61t 622 624 8pq

Spoiler for Time:

— not attacked by our team, 3 relics, 6/6 matches included

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4vj 52o 52r 593 5f6 5rk 5rl 5rm 5rp 5ru 5up 5v1 61t 622 8ps

Spoiler for Water:

— not attacked by our team, 4 relics, 6/6 matches included

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4vj 52o 52r 55q 5c1 5f6 5i5 5i6 5i7 5i8 5i9 5ia 5id 5ie 5if 5ii 5lm 5og 5oo 5up 5v1 61r 8pp

In-element cards our opponents can use without restrictions:
Put into one deck to save space. Add Psion!

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4vi 4vk 4vm 4vo 4vq 52i 52k 52m 52n 52p 52s 52u 52v 5f1 5f3 5lb 5lc 5lg 5lj 61p 61s 621 623 624

[drolly]

Deck ideas for attackers:
These are merely skeletons to get the ball rolling. Credits to Helston for quickly summarizing our options in team chat.

Grabbow (without Adrenaline)

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4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 55q 590 590 590 590 5bs 5bs 5bu 5bu 5bu 5c1 5c1 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5og 61q 8pm

Toadbow (without Staves)

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4vh 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 595 5c1 5c1 5c1 5c1 5c1 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5ie 5ie 5ie 5ie 5rk 61q 8pp

Healing Firestall (without Fahrenheit, Deflagrations, might want to pack in another damage source)

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Scorpion Firestall (without Fahrenheit, CC)

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5c4 5c8 5c8 5c8 5c8 5c8 5c8 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 8po

Frogtal (without defense, might want to add Heals)

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5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 622 622 622 622 8pu

Stoned Dragons (without Adrenaline, healing)

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58r 58r 58r 58r 594 594 594 594 594 594 5aa 5aa 5c3 5c3 5c3 5c3 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 8pm

[Helston]

UPDATE: I was going to update the first post (I did aether as of how they are right now), but it feels a bit time consuming, especially when we don't know how many of these cards defenders will be allowed to use. UPDATED UPDATE: Ah screw it, I reckon I can work a bit faster than I did for aether.

More examples/ideas: Wings duo (good luck trying to get that off the ground with what we've got), fire duo with deflags, momentumed scorps (won't work too well without adrenaline), a stall-ish water/life duo, poison/BW/scorps, blessed scorps (forget that one), antimatter/carapace/heal stall and so on and so forth. There's plenty we can do when we're not restricted by the contents of our Vault. Really wish I had this many ideas coming to me during vault building.

Some suggestions for the above:
-The earth stall isn't a bad idea, but doesn't work too well in practice and could probably do with a bit of a revamp. Might do a bit better in this far more restrictive meta, however.
-Grabbow needs a reworking too. Those adrenalines added a lot to the speed, with a combined total of 9 targets to use it on. Might be best to forget about it completely and use other rainbows.
-Cards which would work in the Toadbow (which needs at least 3 life cards): Heal, Forest Scorpion, Momentum, Poison. Probably best to add in 3x Heal and Momentum.
-Healing Firestall

Spoiler for my suggestion:

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-Scorpion Firestall's was never much of a deck to begin with, probably better off focusing on other ideas.
-Frogtal: Heals and Lightnings are what we want to add in there. Maybe +2 Heals, +4 Lightning?


We could do with some more fast decks, and probably some decks with off-element dragons, which aren't too easy to come by at the moment.

My personal preferences for teams to attack:
1. - 2 support team, used almost all the cards
2. - 2 support team, used a large variety of cards as well as a few other important ones. Can use Psion, but as our shield potential is limited, this isn't too relevant this round.
3. - 2 support team. Used a wide variety of cards and can't pull off a standard grabbow.
4. - 3 support team, but likely to attack. Used a variety of cards and can't firestall. Forest Spirits should ward off any earth stalls.
5. - 3 support team. Used a variety of cards and also likely to attack.
6. - probably 3 support team. Used enough cards to limit them somewhat, and they're probably going to be on the offensive.
7. - 2 support team. Quite a few cards still up their sleeve, including a couple of nasty ones. In such a good position in the overall standings that they might just set both to defense.
8. - 4 support team. They're in a similar position to us. With so many cards used one would assume they'd be ripe for the picking, given that they'll have quite a few attacks this round. However, it's pretty likely they'll be putting a lot of effort into their support team battle next round, like us, so any match between the two of us could be very even.
9. - 2 support team. They're a the biggest target out there, and were no. 1 on this list until I realised that they'll know this. They're going to be defending the four relics they've got, probably with both support team members.
10. - 2-3 support team. Very few time cards used this round means that with 2 defenders they could play almost anything. Even one defender would be dangerous.
11. - probably 5 support team. Like with darkness, they're in a similar position to us. Unlike darkness, they've used very few gravity cards and only have one relic, which they'll undoubtedly have someone defending.

Put myself, drolly, Kai and UnderneathTheLens and Belligerence on offense and swishy on defense. Doesn't really matter who attacks what, but better to associate players with opponents regardless.

Here's a good addition if we were looking for a rush:

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5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5i9 5i9 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 8pp

The recent Nymph buffs got me thinking if I could use Nymph's Tears at all (not that the buff helps this deck at all). Turns out a water duo is still pretty quick, and has the added bonus of 3|6 Nymphs. I've also realised we need to be careful of Mind Flayers (I was thinking Lobos initially, but they're rare and so can't be used in support battles) because of our likely dependence on Forest Spirits and Scorpions. At least that's only possible for aether or rainbow decks, and unupped rainbows don't usually worry about Flayers.

[Belligerence]

My thoughts on Support Team duels:

Attacking:

kai vs  xn0ize:

Spoiler for Hidden:

I'm expecting DimShields (who am I kidding... from the moment I joined team Life, I've been seeing DimShields around every corner). I say we fight Fire with Fire. And Aether with Fire, too. Why not.

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5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c3 5c3 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5f0 5f0 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f6 5f6 5fb 5fb 5fb 5fb 5gi 5gi 8po

Helston's Firestall.

Belligerence vs  Coinich:

Spoiler for Hidden:

A surprising amount of cards banned. I expect to see Psion, but maybe not, because we have 1 of the only 2 spell reflecting shields in the game. I say whatever we use, we use at least 1-2 Emerald Shields, just in case.

Deck: I'm really not sure. Maybe something like:

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5c1 5c1 5c1 5c1 5c1 5c1 5c2 5c2 5c4 5c4 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5od 5od 5od 5od 5on 5on 5op 5op 8pp

To take advantage of the lack of DimShield, and avoid Wings maybe?

UnderneathTheLens vs  Bloom:

Spoiler for Hidden:

Right. My DimShield paranoia is returning in full force. I'm not sure what to use, though. Maybe the Nature's Wrath variant kai used in R1?

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5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5c2 5c2 5c2 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5f6 5f6 5f6 5fb 5fb 5fb 5fb 5fc 5fc 5fc 5fc 5fc 8po

Frogs instead of Cockatrices since we used Cockatrices this round.

drolly vs  ak65ala:

Spoiler for Hidden:

... I don't know. These guys have thrown out some pretty unexpected decks, so I have no reason to believe that they won't continue that trend. Something versatile is probably our best bet. How about a Grabbow?

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4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 55q 590 590 590 590 5bs 5bs 5bu 5bu 5bu 5c1 5c1 5c2 5c2 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5f6 5lf 5og 61q 8pm

I filled the last few slots (skeleton taken from drolly's post) with things to counter possible things Light might throw at us.

killsdazombies vs  Daccoo:

Spoiler for Hidden:

I can't even begin to guess what they'll throw at us. Maybe Helston's Nymph's Tears deck?

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5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5i9 5i9 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 8pp

The Life Nymphs are strong attackers,  fairly CC resistant, and the deck is pretty quick.

Defending:

swishy vs  Shrink:

Spoiler for Hidden:

Frogtal perhaps? With 1 person on defend, we can use DimShield to make it viable.

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5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 622 622 622 622 8pu

Maybe a few Heals/Lightnings?

Edit:

An edit was made to the Round 3 Support Team matchups.

Unless something went awry, we have no defensive support team battles this round.

Second edit: I totally didn't think about the fact that defenders would be able to use banned cards based on how many defenders each team has. The decks I suggested were using the assumption that the cards that their respective team used wouldn't be used. With Helston's overview, I realized how much of a disadvantage we're at attacking...

[Helston]

Quick thoughts from iPhone:

Thanks or the input Belligerence. Unfortunately I'm finding myself disagreeing with you. On the other hand I've got a fairly good knack of being counter-decked (see Grid, last round in War (although Devtosis not winning is bewildering), my two BL seasons) despite how much I think things through so what you suggest might be much better than my suggestions.

: after the lightning trick we pulled last round I'm expecting Phoenixi with either off-element CC or shields. Hence why I think a Phoenix/Heal/Deflag/scorps or frogs duo our could would work. Susceptible to being outrushed by Dragons or Seraphs, which might also be used, esp. Seraphs

: Three defenders, ouch. Fractal > Firestall, Dim > Rush. I'm thinking the Toadbow, add in Chrysaora somewhere.

: Their choices are a lot of CC or dragons. Or both. Not sure for now.

: Wings + Pegasus + Blessing would work vey well for them. So well that a poison/BW duo should be unexpected.

: That pick I do like, Belligerence. Alternatively a heal/spirit/purify/shield duo. The rush could be better, because without adrenaline or high HP creatures, we're suckers to Bone Wall. This deck would prove that wrong (maybe).

"quick thoughts" = 30 minutes, apparently.

[Belligerence]

Seems like I keep forgetting things... we went over it the last 2 rounds, but yet for each of the deck ideas I suggested, I was basing them off of the idea that the cards each respective team used would be banned. Since they'll be defending, attacking just became significantly harder...

[Helston]

Only attacking and . They each have 3 defenders, the others only have 1 and as such are almost as restricted as us.

Here are some rough builds. They all need testing and tweaking, which I can't do all myself:

vs

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5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c3 5c3 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5f0 5f0 5f6 5f6 5f6 5fc 5fc 5fc 5fc 5fc 5fc 5gi 8po

Check it out vs the UG deck they used last round (keep in mind that repeats are very unlikely) and anything you can think of that includes Crimson Dragon, especially fast decks (like PUgon)

vs

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4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 55q 595 5c1 5c1 5c1 5c1 5c1 5c2 5c2 5c2 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5f6 5i5 5ie 5ie 5ie 5ie 61q 8pp

Try testing vs fractal stalls, maybe a bonebolt and some aether rushes. Use phase spiders over Psion, I can't see them sending any our way. No real idea what they'll be sending us.

vs

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5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 622 622 622 622 8pu

This is a complete guess. Any thoughts on entropy at all?

vs

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52g 52g 52h 52o 52o 52o 52o 52o 52o 52r 52r 52r 52r 542 542 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 8pk

Hard to fit any more dragons in there, unfortunately. Try it against a Pegasus duo, no idea what else.

vs

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5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5i9 5i9 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 8pp

Try it out against death rushes, pandebonium/boltbow. Dims and Wings would ruin is, but it's risk I reckon we should take.

[Belligerence]

I got a PM from Aether today, I'll skip to testing the deck Helston suggests using.

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4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 55q 595 5c1 5c1 5c1 5c1 5c1 5c2 5c2 5c2 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5f6 5i5 5ie 5ie 5ie 5ie 61q 8pp

Bonebolt 1 - 5:

Spoiler for Hidden:

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4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 52q 52q 52q 52r 52r 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 61o 61o 61o 61o 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61t 61t 61t 63a 63a 63a 8pk

Too much CC. So many shields. Can't seem to find a version without the Arsenics, so I just tested it with them included. I doubt the result would be much different, Arsenics or not.

Frogtal 5 - 0:

Spoiler for Hidden:

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Random fact: AI Fractals Forest Spirit over Horned Frog. Random fact 2: AI saves up quanta to play Fractal when using 6 quanta that turn to play a DimShield would result in a win. If played by a human, I expect that the result would be close to 4-5/5-4.

Generic Aether deck 5 - 4:

Spoiler for Hidden:

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61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61s 61s 61s 61s 61s 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 620 620 620 620 620 620 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 8pu

Went 4 - 0, then the AI learned how to play DimShields and won 4 in a row. With only 1 Deflgration and 1 Momentum, this is most likely a loss against a human.

The deck does decent enough, but against Aether I can strongly feel the lack of PC. 1 Deflgration and 1 Momentum just isn't enough. I suggest either a deck with more PC (Nature's Wrath, maybe?) or - Chrysaora, + Momentum. The Chrysaora, at the very best, can inflict 6 poison, usually inflicting only 2-3 poison, if I even draw it. It doesn't really add up.

[drolly]

Gah, Real Life has been stealing all my time since Thursday so I haven't been and won't be able to do much for my team which desperately needs help

Any thoughts on entropy at all?

Just a quick thing: So far, Entropy has shown a liking for fat stall decks in support team battles. These can be well built with Chaos Seeds and Mutations, with 1 defender they can take either Pandemonium or Sanctuary. Belligerence's quite right by fearing Dimensional Shields. Frogtal should counter some of their stalls as long as these don't include Panda or many shields, I suppose. We also might consider to include Deflagrations against Disses or Dims (Firestall with >=2 Emeralds?). Or Entropy is going to change their general strategy - I don't know.

[Helston]

They might have taken far stalls in the past, but it's hot ouch of an option this time. They can only use one of diss shield and pande. If they stall a flooding/AM stall looks most likely. They could easily build a dragon deck too. Perhaps some sort of stallbow? Otherwise the Frogtal is our best bet as far as I can tell.

My Life/Fire duo is rather lackluster vs Fire. If I was fire I'd run a Fire Shield/SS stall and watch all our creatures hopelessly kill themselves, or a Dragon/plate armour/Tit shield duo. Maybe even a cloak/dragon duo, but this seems a little less likely. Perhaps an Azure Dragon/Fog duo?

As for aether... this one has me stumped. More thoughts to come.

Also, we need to schedule these matches. Assuming no one's done so already, I'll get onto Kai.

[UnderneathTheLens]

I'm be playing plastiqe ( ). Shall I just take frogtal + lightning then?

[Helston]

Unless anyone has a better suggestion, sure. I'd have to rate Flooding/AM as rather unlikely anyway due to the lack of an alternative win condition and the fact that it's generally a water-heavy duo, especially without a Diss shield. Flooding/diss shield is a fairly big risk thanks to our forest spirits, too.

Still looking into aether, still stumped.

BINGO! FFQ/Hope. Thank you Team Life from War #2!

Latest deck for Kai vs

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Deflags are largely unnecessary without rares to worry about, unless they go for another UG deck, which is a risk I'm willing to take. Rain of Fire serves as better CC than Rage Pots if you're going for a deckout. Thorn Carapaces don't do much vs Fire, they're far too slow. The Crimson Dragons are an alternative win condition, because who doesn't like those? I'm fairly happy with this build.

And here's the FFQ deck for . If you're worried about Psions, you could probably swap the Scorpions for Emerald Shields. I'm not too worried about deckout because of how many cards aether has access to, and how likely they are to try to actually kill us:

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5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c8 5c8 5c8 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5lk 5lk 5lk 5oj 5oj 5oj 5oj 5oj 5oo 8pr

And some testing of this deck:

Spoiler for Frogtal:

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3-1. About that loss. I had a bad draw, no Queens in my top 15 or so cards, and no creatures in my top 11 or 12. That first creature was a Forest Scopion, which the AI, to my utter horror, decided to Fractal. By the time I had hope up I had 27 poison counters on me. If I hadn't done that I probably would've won.

Spoiler for Bonebolt:

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52g 52g 52o 52o 52o 52o 52o 52o 52q 52q 52q 52r 52r 52r 52r 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 8pk

4-1. I didn't bother finding a replacement for Arsenics either, and a human may have won an extra one, but I'm fairly confident that this deck could beat any variations they manage to come up with.

And a quick little reminder will, you can't sub for any of the support battles this round, it has to be someone from the support team or the Lieutenant because they're attacking battles.