Mitosis | Mitosis

[Ekki]

ok allow me to establish something about the flying stalves deck right now:

As has been alluded to, Regeneration of any form becomes worse than useless after it equals your max HP. You will not come back from the dead even if you had a billion purify counters.

Unless you include SoD or Stoneskins, 99 purify counters will be the maximum that will be useful.
99 Regernation for 201 .

Does anyone really think that each point of regeneration should cost more than ~2 ?

For 201 you can force the opponent to have to either OTK you or deck you out.
Life can do the same for much less but is vulnerable to CC.

Note the yellow text, the same thing can be applied here with stalves. You can have 23 stalves out on the field all adrenalined, but if your opponent has more than your max HP in damagae you still die. So for the sake of stating facts, let's calculate how much healing 23 adrenned stalves will get you:
23*5=115

hits w/ adren = 4 per staff

115*4=460

so 23 adrenned staffs will get you 460 healing
now let's calculate damage:

23*2=46

factor in adrenaline, 4

46*4=184

so that's 184 damage with 23 adrenned stalves on the field.
460 hp, 184 damage in one turn with 23 adrenned stalves on the field, that is rather insufficient. If you have 500 max HP, it won't even heal you fully, nor can it OTK an FG at full health, or a HB for that matter. But those situations are rather rare to happen, so let's give a more common example: you are facing Rainbow, and he's got you on 100+ damage/turn, will all those stalves help you? NO. OTK>healing spam. Always. Yes, those are based upon AI, not PvP, but since you all are balancing based on AI, why can't I?

Now, if we were actually balancing based on PvP, this deck would demolish; if it were fast. But face the reality: the entire combo would take at least 10 turns to be fully completed. Most decks will have you dead by then, or to a point where the combo can't keep up.

You forgot something... You can play the combo pretty early actually (I tried it a couple of times), and you will still heal and do damage before you have 23 adrenalin'd staffs out (sorry for the sarcasm), so your opponent won't have an easy time trying to outrush you. The fact is that you can set the combo up only with quanta (AW, not FW), and you'll heal faster than most grows, and by the time your opponent is able to build 100 damage to 0TK you, he will be dead (let's face it, frogs/cockactrices decks damage 3/4 and are powerful).

I haven't tried Owl's Eyes + Mitosis, but the reusable CC will be nasty once set up... I mean, weapon's abilities are made (and balanced) to be used once, or to be hard to spam (no Fractal, 6 animated weapons max, Crusaders are always duo *morningstar*), but now, the main problem is staves+mitosis, because of the mono stability (not to mention 7 hp makes them hard to kill)... I personally wouldn't like to face a flying mitosis'd adrened staves combo in PvP, or I'll run one, more likely.

[ratcharmer]

OK, so that Mitosis/Staff deck I was all up about turns out, after 50 games, to have a winrate of about 38%, and it's much slower than Sha'kar.  So I'm no longer concerned about Mitosis and flying weapons. 

IMHO, I feel that even just 1 combo that slays FG with EM 90% of the time or so (I tried the green staff-flying weapon thing a dozen times and failed to lose to a FG) makes the card OP. However, there are too many FG slaying combos with this (Flying Sword-Mitosis, Devourer Mitosis, etc.) to make it balanced, IMHO.

Would it be possible to post links to the decks you're using? I believe part of the debate here is stemming from different people testing the card in different decks. The figures on the win% for this deck are all over the place, and some of it might be because you're all using different decks that give very different chances of winning.

[Ekki]

Would it be possible to post links to the decks you're using? I believe part of the debate here is stemming from different people testing the card in different decks. The figures on the win% for this deck are all over the place, and some of it might be because you're all using different decks that give very different chances of winning.

It was said before. FG win rate is useless when balancing a card, since FG's are the ones that have to adapt to the new cards... I'm wondering about PvP, but I won't be able to test it until it's too late

BTW, I'm using 6xStaves, 6xAnimate Weapons, 4-6xMitosis (don't remember) and I guess the rest are towers, but maybe a couple of epis or heals won't hurt the combo (everything upped)

[kintar]

So many accusations of this card being OP, and yet I have yet to see a deck using this card that actually breaks the balance of this game. Many people come up with combos like Dragon + Mitosis + SoR = free dragons per turn, and start panicing and screaming OP. How about actually testing out such an idea? I tested a deck consisting of 15x emerald towers, 5x jade dragons, 5x mitosis, and 5x SoR against AI3. It wins in about 6-8 turns. That's not very impressive; go to the ttw study and you'll find many decks that averages less than 6 turns.

Or perhaps they saw the flying swords deck and how it could smash FG's in like 8 turns? Well, you don't use FG's as the basis for balance. Now I got that out of the way...
Yes, the flying swords deck is fast. But it's also by far the most fragile combo I've seen. Just about any kind of CC is a hard counter to the combo. Flying swords only have 2 hp, so any kind of damage will kill it, including paradox and devour. Lobotomize basically negates the combo, and so does rewind and mutation. And that's pretty much all the CC there is. When there are so many single cards that can negate a 3-card combo, is that combo really OP?

did u actually test this card?
if u r smart, u would be using this right away...
u put out something, wait for it to be "demolished"
then drop something, and put this on...

also, u didn't mention flying staffs
they have 7 hp... hard to kill...
rewind... they cost 2 quanta... just put it out (without mitosis), once ur opponent runs out of rewinds, bam...
BB? 6 turn delay is impressive, but against adrenaline? not really (same applies to freeze)
mutation? let's face it... how many decks are out there in PvP use mutation?

I tested like 30+ games against AI3. The flying staff combo takes 3-5 turns to set up, even uninterrupted, and the staff swarm doesn't get out of control until at least turn 7. A good rush deck can consistently win in 6 turns and under. It'll just beat you to death while you're still only healing for 5-10 hp per turn.

Also several things I noticed while playing AI3:
Congeal basically kills the deck. Unless you manage to draw another staff + animate + mitosis combo, you're sitting there for four turns doing nothing except maybe having a single staff heal 5 hp. If this happens in a PvP situation you'll just get demolished.
Ice shield and procrastination are very, very annoying.
This deck is surprisingly unreliable. In about 1/4 - 1/3 of the games I played, I spent several turns waiting to draw a staff, an animate, or mitosis. And that's with 6 copies of each. This deck also has the tendency to get quanta-starved often.

...and LMAO at your comment about rewind. You realize rewind is one of the best counters against flying weapons, right? Every time a flying weapon gets rewound, you lose one card in card advantage. Sure, they'll eventually run out of rewinds... you'll run out of animates first.

So yeah, how about you take your own advice on? Stop theorizing and start testing.

EDIT:

Would it be possible to post links to the decks you're using? I believe part of the debate here is stemming from different people testing the card in different decks. The figures on the win% for this deck are all over the place, and some of it might be because you're all using different decks that give very different chances of winning.

Swords deck: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,19756.0.html
Staves deck: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,19789.0.html


Moderator Comment: Minor edit to quell potential flames.

[TheIdioticIdiot]

um... adrenaline for congeal? i believe I mentioned that...

also, rushes are delayed by at least a few turns, if u r healing 5 to 10 every turn... gives u more time to set up, also, adrenaline helps here too...

[ratcharmer]

Yes, it should be balanced for pvp not versus FGs, but if a card dominates versus FGs it's a good bet it'll be at least a little OP in pvp.

That said here's my thoughts on testing mitostaves so far:

It really doesn't seem OP to me so far, strong, yes, but not OP. Jade shields can help a lot by making the deck immune to a lot of different OTKs.
Why it's strong:
It's pretty much fractal SoG, with damage thrown in.
Why it's not as strong as you might think:
It needs a three card combo to get started, and those cards need to be played in a specific order. Also, mitosis is notably slower than fractal. You end up with your hand clogged with useless flying weapons or mitosis with nothing to cast it on.

However, I think this will stomp a lot of the current rush decks.

*Edit* My experience testing this was pretty similar to what a couple of other people have reported: I EM'd my first game (versus incarnate) then my luck went dramatically downhill from there. If the AI gets smart enough to take out the spawner first I think that'll be pretty much deck over . . .

[Kael Hate]

Looking at this card, I'm falling for its current form more and more.

The rush decks people are quoting get handbraked by a 2 pt Shield.
The AI is being ignored, cause they will jsut have to deal with it (I'm an AI player)
The PVP options for mega/brute force wins are slower than the curve anyhow.

Atm it looks to me less like an OP card and just a High end strong Variant.

[skyreal]

I tested like 30+ games against AI3. The flying staff combo takes 3-5 turns to set up, even uninterrupted, and the staff swarm doesn't get out of control until at least turn 7. A good rush deck can consistently win in 6 turns and under. It'll just beat you to death while you're still only healing for 5-10 hp per turn.

Also several things I noticed while playing AI3:
Congeal basically kills the deck. Unless you manage to draw another staff + animate + mitosis combo, you're sitting there for four turns doing nothing except maybe having a single staff heal 5 hp. If this happens in a PvP situation you'll just get demolished.
Ice shield and procrastination are very, very annoying.
This deck is surprisingly unreliable. In about 1/4 - 1/3 of the games I played, I spent several turns waiting to draw a staff, an animate, or mitosis. And that's with 6 copies of each. This deck also has the tendency to get quanta-starved often.

Agreed. I also tested this deck. Staff+mitosis is too slow and vulnerable (even with quint.).
I prefer a mitosis/pest deck that is almost unbeatable (maybe cause pest is cheap...)

But I think Mitosis should cost more.

Anyway, thanks Zanz for updates and new cards!

Ps: Hi the community!

[twinsbuster]

I would like to see full board of flying weapons

[Tea is good]

What I like about this card is that I have four green nymphs, so my deck will be OPer than urs. >>> makes board of flying weapons with adren - 1 flying weapon + green nymph =

[Essence]

^^I officially hate you now.

[Avenger]

Theoretically, weapons shouldn't be able to reproduce because they lack cells.

Photons, golems, lava destroyers, [insert random creature] are also lacking cells.