Mitosis | Mitosis

[TimerClock14]

OK, so that Mitosis/Staff deck I was all up about turns out, after 50 games, to have a winrate of about 38%, and it's much slower than Sha'kar.  So I'm no longer concerned about Mitosis and flying weapons.

^^this, as you'll see once you start using the card more you'll see where the actual balance lies.

[Zeru]

Broken = has too much power in special circumstances (i.e. weapons + mitosis = too powerful)
OP = Too powerful in every/most circumstance(s). (i.e. sundial before the nerf)

Please don't use redundant definitions like this. The entire card balance can be simplified into a calculation of costs and effects. By costs I mean all possible costs you have to suffer to get the effect except time, because it's a turn based game.

And in the end: Profit = Effects - Cost

So, the costs to think are:
- Quanta
- Card space
- Card Focus
- Deck Versatility
- Deck Speed
- Immunity vs CC
- Creatures
- etc.
All of these can be sacrificed for a stronger effect.
Effects:
- Damage
- Defence
- Healing
- Ability to auto-win
- etc

Note that some costs can be effects and vice versa (Steam Machine sacrifices early damage for late damage)
If we look at it this way, we can define OP correctly.

OP card/combo = This card/combo allows to get a lot more profit then other cards/combos.
Broken card/combo  = This card/combo allows to get a lot more profit then other cards/combos.

Variety is not a always a good thing. In this case you are simply causing confusion. I really insist on keeping Broken and OP as synonyms.

[Marvaddin]

I also dont see this as a sooooooo OP card. Of course, with weapons its powerful, because, like said, you are supposed to have 1 weapon, and because of this they are cheap. But worse, using Mitosis you arent generating a card, but a 2 card combo. So, Im also up to deny Mitosis being played in animated weapons.

But I already see that a deck based in animated staves and adrenaline is powerful, isnt it? If can generate like 60 life per turn pretty easily. However, you are safe if you have a shield, and can build your damage or win by deck out. There is always a weak point. Flying swords deck? Sure, but the generator is a weak creature that can be eliminated easily without a quint. An Otyugh, for example, negates completely a Mitosis flying Sword. Im not really worried with these (a dragon + SoR spam with some stall worries me much more), but, because of too much card advantage (generating 2 cards combo using 1 skill), I also think it shouldnt be able to target weapons.

Other than that, maybe 6 cost unupped and 5 upped would be better. Its currently too cheap, you can pay with 2 SuperNovas or your mark, and you wouldnt even need other Life quanta in your deck.

[kintar]

So many accusations of this card being OP, and yet I have yet to see a deck using this card that actually breaks the balance of this game. Many people come up with combos like Dragon + Mitosis + SoR = free dragons per turn, and start panicing and screaming OP. How about actually testing out such an idea? I tested a deck consisting of 15x emerald towers, 5x jade dragons, 5x mitosis, and 5x SoR against AI3. It wins in about 6-8 turns. That's not very impressive; go to the ttw study and you'll find many decks that averages less than 6 turns.

Or perhaps they saw the flying swords deck and how it could smash FG's in like 8 turns? Well, you don't use FG's as the basis for balance. Now I got that out of the way...
Yes, the flying swords deck is fast. But it's also by far the most fragile combo I've seen. Just about any kind of CC is a hard counter to the combo. Flying swords only have 2 hp, so any kind of damage will kill it, including paradox and devour. Lobotomize basically negates the combo, and so does rewind and mutation. And that's pretty much all the CC there is. When there are so many single cards that can negate a 3-card combo, is that combo really OP?

[Ekki]

So many accusations of this card being OP, and yet I have yet to see a deck using this card that actually breaks the balance of this game. Many people come up with combos like Dragon + Mitosis + SoR = free dragons per turn, and start panicing and screaming OP. How about actually testing out such an idea? I tested a deck consisting of 15x emerald towers, 5x jade dragons, 5x mitosis, and 5x SoR against AI3. It wins in about 6-8 turns. That's not very impressive; go to the ttw study and you'll find many decks that averages less than 6 turns.

I'm saying the Flying Staffs/Stilletos + Mitosis combo is OP, because I've tried it. Certainly, it'll be hard to counter, because staves have some hp (7 I think) and they can both damage and heal you (not to mention get adrenaline while in mono), so the problem is basically that one.

*Stilletos have 4/5 hp (don't remember), and vampire, so they're pretty neat too.

[TheIdioticIdiot]

So many accusations of this card being OP, and yet I have yet to see a deck using this card that actually breaks the balance of this game. Many people come up with combos like Dragon + Mitosis + SoR = free dragons per turn, and start panicing and screaming OP. How about actually testing out such an idea? I tested a deck consisting of 15x emerald towers, 5x jade dragons, 5x mitosis, and 5x SoR against AI3. It wins in about 6-8 turns. That's not very impressive; go to the ttw study and you'll find many decks that averages less than 6 turns.

Or perhaps they saw the flying swords deck and how it could smash FG's in like 8 turns? Well, you don't use FG's as the basis for balance. Now I got that out of the way...
Yes, the flying swords deck is fast. But it's also by far the most fragile combo I've seen. Just about any kind of CC is a hard counter to the combo. Flying swords only have 2 hp, so any kind of damage will kill it, including paradox and devour. Lobotomize basically negates the combo, and so does rewind and mutation. And that's pretty much all the CC there is. When there are so many single cards that can negate a 3-card combo, is that combo really OP?

did u actually test this card?
if u r smart, u would be using this right away...
u put out something, wait for it to be "demolished"
then drop something, and put this on...

also, u didn't mention flying staffs
they have 7 hp... hard to kill...
rewind... they cost 2 quanta... just put it out (without mitosis), once ur opponent runs out of rewinds, bam...
BB? 6 turn delay is impressive, but against adrenaline? not really (same applies to freeze)
mutation? let's face it... how many decks are out there in PvP use mutation?

[TimerClock14]

ok allow me to establish something about the flying stalves deck right now:

As has been alluded to, Regeneration of any form becomes worse than useless after it equals your max HP. You will not come back from the dead even if you had a billion purify counters.

Unless you include SoD or Stoneskins, 99 purify counters will be the maximum that will be useful.
99 Regernation for 201 .

Does anyone really think that each point of regeneration should cost more than ~2 ?

For 201 you can force the opponent to have to either OTK you or deck you out.
Life can do the same for much less but is vulnerable to CC.

Note the yellow text, the same thing can be applied here with stalves. You can have 23 stalves out on the field all adrenalined, but if your opponent has more than your max HP in damagae you still die. So for the sake of stating facts, let's calculate how much healing 23 adrenned stalves will get you:
23*5=115

hits w/ adren = 4 per staff

115*4=460

so 23 adrenned staffs will get you 460 healing
now let's calculate damage:

23*2=46

factor in adrenaline, 4

46*4=184

so that's 184 damage with 23 adrenned stalves on the field.
460 hp, 184 damage in one turn with 23 adrenned stalves on the field, that is rather insufficient. If you have 500 max HP, it won't even heal you fully, nor can it OTK an FG at full health, or a HB for that matter. But those situations are rather rare to happen, so let's give a more common example: you are facing Rainbow, and he's got you on 100+ damage/turn, will all those stalves help you? NO. OTK>healing spam. Always. Yes, those are based upon AI, not PvP, but since you all are balancing based on AI, why can't I?

Now, if we were actually balancing based on PvP, this deck would demolish; if it were fast. But face the reality: the entire combo would take at least 10 turns to be fully completed. Most decks will have you dead by then, or to a point where the combo can't keep up.

[ZephyrPhantom]

Thank god the card is still in development. Okay, to summarize, we have two sides in this debate:

1 Side Believes that Mitosis is OP due to the combo with Animated Weapons
1 Side  believes that Mitosis is balanced because there are appropriate counters to such a combo.

I see both sides:  While I can understand the need to point out low cost cards like Short Sword and Druid's Staff, at the same time, there are cards/abilities like Hope, Eternity/Reverse Time, and Lobotomize (ironically Acceleration works pretty well here too) that can counter these cards.  Yes, I know a PvP version will have People throwing Swords at me, shouldn't I try to pack CC of some sort since most decks need it, or are pretty fast anyway? Yes.

The fact that 2-3 people are still going strong on the balanced side means that there needs to be more discussion(and maybe testing) done. For now, I am neutral.  Once thing for sure: this card will have a very strong effect on the metagame.

[TDenverFan]

Thank god the card is still in development. Okay, to summarize, we have two sides in this debate:

1 Side Believes that Mitosis is OP due to the combo with Animated Weapons
1 Side  believes that Mitosis is balanced because there are appropriate counters to such a combo.

I see both sides:  While I can understand the need to point out low cost cards like Short Sword and Druid's Staff, at the same time, there are cards/abilities like Hope, Eternity/Reverse Time, and Lobotomize (ironically Acceleration works pretty well here too) that can counter these cards.  Yes, I know a PvP version will have People throwing Swords at me, shouldn't I try to pack CC of some sort since most decks need it, or are pretty fast anyway? Yes.

The fact that 2-3 people are still going strong on the balanced side means that there needs to be more discussion(and maybe testing) done. For now, I am neutral.  Once thing for sure: this card will have a very strong effect on the metagame.

IMHO, I feel that even just 1 combo that slays FG with EM 90% of the time or so (I tried the green staff-flying weapon thing a dozen times and failed to lose to a FG) makes the card OP. However, there are too many FG slaying combos with this (Flying Sword-Mitosis, Devourer Mitosis, etc.) to make it balanced, IMHO.

[TimerClock14]

Thank god the card is still in development. Okay, to summarize, we have two sides in this debate:

1 Side Believes that Mitosis is OP due to the combo with Animated Weapons
1 Side  believes that Mitosis is balanced because there are appropriate counters to such a combo.

I see both sides:  While I can understand the need to point out low cost cards like Short Sword and Druid's Staff, at the same time, there are cards/abilities like Hope, Eternity/Reverse Time, and Lobotomize (ironically Acceleration works pretty well here too) that can counter these cards.  Yes, I know a PvP version will have People throwing Swords at me, shouldn't I try to pack CC of some sort since most decks need it, or are pretty fast anyway? Yes.

The fact that 2-3 people are still going strong on the balanced side means that there needs to be more discussion(and maybe testing) done. For now, I am neutral.  Once thing for sure: this card will have a very strong effect on the metagame.

IMHO, I feel that even just 1 combo that slays FG with EM 90% of the time or so (I tried the green staff-flying weapon thing a dozen times and failed to lose to a FG) makes the card OP. However, there are too many FG slaying combos with this (Flying Sword-Mitosis, Devourer Mitosis, etc.) to make it balanced, IMHO.

elements is balanced with PvP at the focal point, the impact it has on AI, FGs for example, has little to no importance to balancing.

[TDenverFan]

Thank god the card is still in development. Okay, to summarize, we have two sides in this debate:

1 Side Believes that Mitosis is OP due to the combo with Animated Weapons
1 Side  believes that Mitosis is balanced because there are appropriate counters to such a combo.

I see both sides:  While I can understand the need to point out low cost cards like Short Sword and Druid's Staff, at the same time, there are cards/abilities like Hope, Eternity/Reverse Time, and Lobotomize (ironically Acceleration works pretty well here too) that can counter these cards.  Yes, I know a PvP version will have People throwing Swords at me, shouldn't I try to pack CC of some sort since most decks need it, or are pretty fast anyway? Yes.

The fact that 2-3 people are still going strong on the balanced side means that there needs to be more discussion(and maybe testing) done. For now, I am neutral.  Once thing for sure: this card will have a very strong effect on the metagame.

IMHO, I feel that even just 1 combo that slays FG with EM 90% of the time or so (I tried the green staff-flying weapon thing a dozen times and failed to lose to a FG) makes the card OP. However, there are too many FG slaying combos with this (Flying Sword-Mitosis, Devourer Mitosis, etc.) to make it balanced, IMHO.

elements is balanced with PvP at the focal point, the impact it has on AI, FGs for example, has little to no importance to balancing.

True, I guess it helps that the CPU does not recognize a mitosised creature as being better, or more kill-worthy, than a  non-mitosised creature

[Uncle Jellyfish]

Thank god the card is still in development. Okay, to summarize, we have two sides in this debate:

1 Side Believes that Mitosis is OP due to the combo with Animated Weapons
1 Side  believes that Mitosis is balanced because there are appropriate counters to such a combo.

I see both sides:  While I can understand the need to point out low cost cards like Short Sword and Druid's Staff, at the same time, there are cards/abilities like Hope, Eternity/Reverse Time, and Lobotomize (ironically Acceleration works pretty well here too) that can counter these cards.  Yes, I know a PvP version will have People throwing Swords at me, shouldn't I try to pack CC of some sort since most decks need it, or are pretty fast anyway? Yes.

The fact that 2-3 people are still going strong on the balanced side means that there needs to be more discussion(and maybe testing) done. For now, I am neutral.  Once thing for sure: this card will have a very strong effect on the metagame.

IMHO, I feel that even just 1 combo that slays FG with EM 90% of the time or so (I tried the green staff-flying weapon thing a dozen times and failed to lose to a FG) makes the card OP. However, there are too many FG slaying combos with this (Flying Sword-Mitosis, Devourer Mitosis, etc.) to make it balanced, IMHO.

elements is balanced with PvP at the focal point, the impact it has on AI, FGs for example, has little to no importance to balancing.

True, I guess it helps that the CPU does not recognize a mitosised creature as being better, or more kill-worthy, than a  non-mitosised creature

Yet. As far as I know, when new cards are uploaded to the Trainer, they are added into all decks, even those that can't use them, to see how the AI reacts to such cards and how they are played. Then, based on that data, the AIs are tweaked to appropriately use the new cards. So, in the Trainer, the AI doesn't recognize a Mitrosised creature as a threat, but in the live version it may be quite different.