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Elements the Game => Card Ideas and Art => Level 3 - Armory => Topic started by: AD TienzuStorm on September 03, 2015, 01:14:35 pm

Title: Manta Ray | Elite Ray
Post by: AD TienzuStorm on September 03, 2015, 01:14:35 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/QjKFwGT.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/jDwjvFU.png)
NAME:
Manta Ray
ELEMENT:
Water
COST:
4 :water
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
3 | 7
TEXT:
Giant: Cloaks adjacent creatures and takes damage for them
NAME:
Elite Ray
ELEMENT:
Water
COST:
4 :water
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
3 | 8
TEXT:
Giant: Cloaks adjacent creatures and takes damage for them

ART:
Here (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Elphinstone_Reef_Manta_Ray.JPG)
IDEA:
AD TienzuStorm
NOTES:
Some CC protection for Water.

Adjacent slots are the ones to the left and right, not above and below.

How Mantas interact:

1. Mantas only take the damage that is dealt to the creature directly
2. Mantas getting in the way and taking damage for another creature doesn't count as a direct attack (in this card at least ^^)
CHANGES:
- Raised HP by 4 for both unupped and upped, changed cost to 4 :water for both
- Changed attack to 3 for both
Title: Re: Manta Ray | Elite Ray
Post by: Zyardran on September 03, 2015, 01:16:48 pm
Make it a health of 9 | 10 so it can take more damage
Title: Re: Manta Ray | Elite Ray
Post by: Treldon on September 03, 2015, 01:27:12 pm
Definitely raise HP and then probably raise cost a bit as well
Title: Re: Manta Ray | Elite Ray
Post by: Aves on September 03, 2015, 02:08:21 pm
What if there are two adjacent rays?
Title: Re: Manta Ray | Elite Ray
Post by: CleanOnion on September 03, 2015, 03:05:00 pm
I guess the one in the higher value position takes priority?
Title: Re: Manta Ray | Elite Ray
Post by: Basman-1453 on September 03, 2015, 03:12:42 pm
What if there are two adjacent rays?

In fact, what if two Manta Rays are separated with only one space?
Title: Re: Manta Ray | Elite Ray
Post by: CleanOnion on September 03, 2015, 08:48:53 pm
I have been informed that this speculation is in face incorrect

What if there are two adjacent rays?

In fact, what if two Manta Rays are separated with only one space?

**I AM NOT AD TIENZUSTORM**



No Manta Rays:
(http://puu.sh/jYSy0/ce51468a7d.png)



Two Manta Rays, 0 spaces apart. RED Manta Ray is on position 1 (1st card played), BLUE Manta Ray is on position 4 (4th card played). Purple is where the hexes overlap.
(http://puu.sh/jYSOU/58f14405da.png)
Where Blue overlaps with Red, I would suggest that Blue takes priority, because it's likely to be the most recent card played and it has a higher position on the field. SoBlue takes the damage for positions 1, 3, 4, 9, 13, 17 and 21. Red takes the damage for 5, 14 and 18. However, by this logic all damage to Red Manta Ray would be relegated to Blue Manta Ray. I guess this "Manta Chaining" could lead to some very interesting deck techniques involving many Manta Rays and repeatedly Blessing or Stone Skinning the one with the highest position, but it doesn't realistically make sense.



Two Manta Rays, 1 space apart. Colour key thingy is same as before, except Blue Manta Ray is on position 3.
(http://puu.sh/jYTUf/dff8913ab0.png)
Red covers positions 1, 4, 5, 9, 14, 18, and 21. Blue covers positions 3, 4, 7, 8, 13, 17, and 20. They're both fighting for control of position 4, and because Blue has the higher position, it gets the honour of taking 4's damage. Wait, that's a bad thing. No "Manta Chaining" occurs here.



Obviously I'm not AD Tienzustorm so this is just random speculation really. Should AD contradict me with his ideas (because it's his card and not mine and I've totally hijacked this post) I will put everything in a spoiler and label it as Bad. Also, don't Quote this post because it's a lot of BBCode and you don't want it in your reply.
Title: Re: Manta Ray | Elite Ray
Post by: AD TienzuStorm on September 03, 2015, 09:55:02 pm
Make it a health of 9 | 10 so it can take more damage

Definitely raise HP and then probably raise cost a bit as well

Will do, gimme a sec.

What if there are two adjacent rays?

What if there are two adjacent rays?

In fact, what if two Manta Rays are separated with only one space?

The Manta Ray played second will take priority (unless there is some coding problem, it can change, doesn't matter).

Also, it doesn't matter how far apart they are, as of generally the main reason cloaked creatures are damaged is because of AoE (and speaking of the cloaking mechanic, it doesn't go away from AoE assuming the Ray survives).
Title: Re: Manta Ray | Elite Ray
Post by: CleanOnion on September 03, 2015, 10:52:14 pm
May I ask what you intend to happen with Manta Chaining as I mentioned in my ridiculously long and incorrect description? Would a row of adjacent mantas load all of their damage onto one manta?
Title: Re: Manta Ray | Elite Ray
Post by: kirbylover314 on September 03, 2015, 10:53:29 pm
I think the easiest way to deal with that it to allow damage to move only once
Title: Re: Manta Ray | Elite Ray
Post by: OldTrees on September 03, 2015, 11:03:14 pm
May I ask what you intend to happen with Manta Chaining as I mentioned in my ridiculously long and incorrect description? Would a row of adjacent mantas load all of their damage onto one manta?
I would presume:
Damage is loaded one clump at a time(a damage event).
Each Manta can load damage once per damage event. (So no loops)
When there are 2 Manta that can load, there is a priority(latest one) that determines which loads

So a line of 4 Manta Rays would load damage onto one Manta in clumps until it is dead and then the damage would stop at the next one instead.
Example: 4 Manta Rays and 1 Photon get hit with Rain of Fire(5 clumps of 3 damage each). Then 1 Mantas would take 3 clumps each(dying from the 9 damage) and a 2nd Manta would get stuck with the last 2 clumps(6 damage) but survive. Well, actually the clump distribution would depend on placement and priority.
Title: Re: Manta Ray | Elite Ray
Post by: AD TienzuStorm on September 04, 2015, 12:21:51 am
Yeah, basically it's just:

1. Mantas only take the damage that is dealt to the creature directly
2. Mantas getting in the way and taking damage for another creature doesn't count as a direct attack (in this card at least ^^)
3. AoE and Fire Shield do count as damage
Title: Re: Manta Ray | Elite Ray
Post by: OldTrees on September 04, 2015, 04:26:54 am
Yeah, basically it's just:

1. Mantas only take the damage that is dealt to the creature directly
2. Mantas getting in the way and taking damage for another creature doesn't count as a direct attack (in this card at least ^^)
3. AoE and Fire Shield/Thorn Carapace do count as direct damage (I might need to use a different word to describe it, since direct damage is already a term in EtG IIRC)
Oh. 1+2 makes this much simpler if a bit counter-intuitive to some. Definitely a valid way to go.

Thorn Carapace does infection not damage. Are you implying that damage from infection(and acceleration?) can be redirected?

You can use "damage" rather than "direct damage".
Title: Re: Manta Ray | Elite Ray
Post by: AD TienzuStorm on September 04, 2015, 11:27:18 am
Yeah, basically it's just:

1. Mantas only take the damage that is dealt to the creature directly
2. Mantas getting in the way and taking damage for another creature doesn't count as a direct attack (in this card at least ^^)
3. AoE and Fire Shield/Thorn Carapace do count as direct damage (I might need to use a different word to describe it, since direct damage is already a term in EtG IIRC)
Oh. 1+2 makes this much simpler if a bit counter-intuitive to some. Definitely a valid way to go.

Thorn Carapace does infection not damage. Are you implying that damage from infection(and acceleration?) can be redirected?

You can use "damage" rather than "direct damage".

Oh right, sorry, didn't mean to add Thorn Carapace, poison and Accel aren't supposed to trigger Mantas.
Title: Re: Manta Ray | Elite Ray
Post by: foxrain4 on September 04, 2015, 12:50:10 pm
is adjacent creatures 1 slot to the left and right
or is it the whole row?

if its 1 slot adjacent,
i think its not easy to set up its combo
based on how elements automatically place
your creatures in designated spots.

if its whole adjacent row,
Manta Ray is a very good card idea and practical as well,
but its thematic sense might falls a little bit short.

a weird idea would be 2 slots adjacent,
but i wonder how you are going to phrase
it into the card text.
Title: Re: Manta Ray | Elite Ray
Post by: AD TienzuStorm on September 04, 2015, 12:57:03 pm
is adjacent creatures 1 slot to the left and right
or is it the whole row?

Some CC protection for Water.

Adjacent slots are the ones to the left and right, not above and below.

Upgrade might do too much (-1 casting cost, +2 HP), but I think it shouldn't be too bad, considering that it's not spectacular as a card in the first place.

Also, consider the way that Cygnia places creatures; it instead plays them all in a row in order from left to right, making it a bit easier to use Manta Ray (or harder, but usually easier).
Title: Re: Manta Ray | Elite Ray
Post by: YumYum124816 on September 04, 2015, 04:16:23 pm
I'd say, reduce the cost to two, but have the ability have a cost. To reduce confusion and make it easier to use, Manta Ray can protect one monster for one turn. The ability cost being 2. You could raise the health to 8 or 9 and reduce damage to 1.
Title: Re: Manta Ray | Elite Ray
Post by: Treldon on September 04, 2015, 05:00:42 pm
Some art if you want it

(http://i.imgur.com/g8cAdNG.png)

source (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Elphinstone_Reef_Manta_Ray.JPG)

And I'd also lower the ATK, though not necesarilly to 1. 2 would be reasonable I think
Title: Re: Manta Ray | Elite Ray
Post by: AD TienzuStorm on September 04, 2015, 06:43:12 pm
I'd say, reduce the cost to two, but have the ability have a cost. To reduce confusion and make it easier to use, Manta Ray can protect one monster for one turn. The ability cost being 2. You could raise the health to 8 or 9 and reduce damage to 1.

That ruins the point of it, it's supposed to be a constant Cloak (and you don't see Cloak having an ability cost). Also, it's already likely UP as it is, since it costs the same as Cloak and yet protects significantly less things, even though it does last much longer. But considering that RT, Lobo, LS, etc. all can counter it (not to mention that AoE CC can remove as well such as RoF) and that CC is much more popular than PC, I think it doesn't need a nerf.

Also, it's not a particularly confusing card. What is there that's confusing about it? The only remotely questionable thing is the interaction of Mantas with each other, but there are plenty of in game cards that are much more complex (I'd like to say that Antimatter, among others, ultimately has many more situations where you wouldn't know what would happen without testing).

Some art if you want it

(http://i.imgur.com/g8cAdNG.png)

source (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Elphinstone_Reef_Manta_Ray.JPG)

And I'd also lower the ATK, though not necesarilly to 1. 2 would be reasonable I think

Thank you, I shall add once I get computer access.

Also, any reason for attack nerf? Its cost:attack ratio isn't too spectacular anyways.
Title: Re: Manta Ray | Elite Ray
Post by: Treldon on September 04, 2015, 06:49:37 pm
-snip-
Also, any reason for attack nerf? Its cost:attack ratio isn't too spectacular anyways.

1: Manta rays are gentle creatures, unlikely to hurt others
2: Think Armagio

But in the end it's your card. If you want 3 ATK, 3 it is
Title: Re: Manta Ray | Elite Ray
Post by: AD TienzuStorm on September 05, 2015, 02:54:47 pm
-snip-
Also, any reason for attack nerf? Its cost:attack ratio isn't too spectacular anyways.

1: Manta rays are gentle creatures, unlikely to hurt others
2: Think Armagio

1. True, but so are frogs but you still see huge frogs rampaging the battlefield :P
2. Well, I think this is considerably weaker than Armagio in that while they both assume the opponent has certain cards, Armagio's assumption is more likely to be true (creatures are more common than CC), and it also has a greater impact on the game (kinda comparable to a SoD to a Cloak.. ish. okay maybe not, but shh)

I also don't want this to be completely reliant on its ability, I'd prefer that its attack still be somewhat decent (like how Ulitharid's attack isn't all that bad, even though its main purpose is lobotomy).



Also, Crucible ready maybe?
Title: Re: Manta Ray | Elite Ray
Post by: Treldon on September 05, 2015, 03:09:19 pm
-snip-
Also, any reason for attack nerf? Its cost:attack ratio isn't too spectacular anyways.

1: Manta rays are gentle creatures, unlikely to hurt others
2: Think Armagio

1. True, but so are frogs but you still see huge frogs rampaging the battlefield :P
2. Well, I think this is considerably weaker than Armagio in that while they both assume the opponent has certain cards, Armagio's assumption is more likely to be true (creatures are more common than CC), and it also has a greater impact on the game (kinda comparable to a SoD to a Cloak.. ish. okay maybe not, but shh)

I also don't want this to be completely reliant on its ability, I'd prefer that its attack still be somewhat decent (like how Ulitharid's attack isn't all that bad, even though its main purpose is lobotomy).



Also, Crucible ready maybe?

1: Frogs are predators. Mantas eat plankton  :P

As I said, your decision. And in my opinion it is ready. Just add water picture
blarg: