Essence Wyrm | Essence Wyvern [Legacy - Crucible]

[Arum]

Musta misread it then. Oops.

[ZephyrPhantom]

What I try to say is that in cards with HIGH attack stats and HIGH cost (and NOT the average attack and cost of the Abomination) only  has atk=hp.

We're not talking about 3|3, 4|4 or 5|5 creatures here, but for 10|10, 11|11 or 12|12 creatures. The fact it is not truly a dragon doesn't mean something, the discussion is about its stats.
You cannot put a high attack & high health creature in an element without comparing its atk,hp and cost with another creature of the same element.

That in turn limits the freedom of design and thematic links, and I feel like you haven't considered the ability enough given that you're emphasizing attack, HP, and cost. If I had a creature with 12 | 12 and Venom, would I put in Light just because it has high attack and high health? If I had an Immaterial creature that has Vampire, would I just put in Aether because it was immaterial?

Light does not have a theme of rushing or blitzing, which I feel this card and air do (lowers cost to be played faster, though not as aggressive as would) and while Light does have links to the sky, the clear ruler of the domain of aerial creatures is . A secondary and more minor link could be made to with the name of "Essence", but Essence can also be carried by the winds in some fiction and a name change could be made if needed.

So possible themes I see:
Primary/Purpose and Overall :
Secondary/Alternatives or

Sticking too much to Element based stereotypes restricts creativity and potential for new ideas to be implemented, and even then the ideas put in may undergo huge changes before they actually hit the game (Ghost of the Past was originally a 4 | 4 creature for 4 that damaged the opponent when discarded and Shard of Serendipity was originally a Permanent that filled your hand with random cards as an ability.). While I find using the base ETG useful as a balancing tool I do not find it as useful to design themes for new cards since theme is a much more open field of interpretation.

Just compare your 11 cost 11|11 stats (or 10 cost 10|10 stats) Essence Wyrm with the 10 cost 9|6 stats Azure Dragon (or 12 cost 13|7 stats Sky Dragon). Your Essence Wyrm is OP in comparison with Azure/Sky Dragon and it would make the dragon of the sky element relatively weak and quite useless.

Azure Dragon doesn't get weaker as it's allies leave the field. Against a CC/PC-heavy or RT deck, Essence Wyrms will be much less useful because the amount of cards removed will lower their stats below an Azure Dragon's relatively quickly, making then easier to play but also weaker than Azure Dragon (which is more durable overall given that has no risk of being weakened while in the hand). Most players tend to wield CC or PC to begin with, which means by the time this card is ready to played it'll generally be at GoTP or Seraph-like stats unless you saved up 11 and protected everything.

[ARTHANASIOS]

^ In the card's description, you write "Cost decreases will only occur for the Wyrms in your hand.", which simply means that everything you wrote above for the CC and PC is true only if you start with an Essence Wyrm in your hand. After a couple of turns in a mono-air deck, you will easily have more than 11 quanta, which means you can play an Essence Wyrm you just drew at full cost/stats.
 What's more, this card's versatility is really huge. Just remove from the game various cards with CC or PC mechanics (or let your opponent to do so) and wait until you have the most decent cost/stats for your Essence Wyrm and cast it on field, or just summon a powerful 11|11 creature with just 11/10 if you have the mana to do so.
 It is a good thing to use your imagination, but we try to create realistic cards here and every new and unique ability must be reasonable and not broken. I am not convienced the Azure/Sky dragon will be still as useful as before with a card like Essence Wyrm around, because:
1) Azure/Sky has not any ability other than airborne, Essence Wyrm has a pretty versatile ability...
2) Axure/Sky is less cost-effective/stats-effective than Essence Wyrm in high levels.

 The only drawback of your Wyrm is if compared with lower stats creature (<6), where it acts like an airborne vanilla versions of Abomination (5 for 5|5), Blue Crawler (3 for 3|3), Mind Flayer (2 for 2|2) or Skeleton (1 for 1|1). However, even with this drawback, you will still be able to play it as a last resolve.
 For me, Essence Wyrm is OP and I think I have explained myself pretty well.

[ZephyrPhantom]

^ In the card's description, you write "Cost decreases will only occur for the Wyrms in your hand.", which simply means that everything you wrote above for the CC and PC is true only if you start with an Essence Wyrm in your hand. After a couple of turns in a mono-air deck, you will easily have more than 11 quanta, which means you can play an Essence Wyrm you just drew at full cost/stats. That's assuming your opponent doesn't destroy anything while you have the wyrm in your hand. In a mono-air, you'd probably already be dealing decent damage with normal Wyrms, especially upped.

 What's more, this card's versatility is really huge. Just remove from the game various cards with CC or PC mechanics (or let your opponent to do so) and wait until you have the most decent cost/stats for your Essence Wyrm and cast it on field, or just summon a powerful 11|11 creature with just 11/10 if you have the mana to do so.
The versality is the card's main strength, but you can't just assume you can bait out every single CC or PC card just for the Wyrm's sake - each card you lose goes 1 for 1 in terms of cards - if you're not careful you can play a Wyrm that is too weak or have a Wyrm that is too expensive in addition to a bunch of destroyed cards you might have needed (sure, let your opponent EQ your pillars or RT your creatures,  but then you're going to have less quanta in the long run. You can let your opponent destroy your shield, but then you'll have to go without your defense.). Repeatable CC/PC like Eternity, SoF, or Warden is the biggest issue when using this card - No CC will make it more stronger than Dragon, but 1 :quanta can mean the difference between being able to play 2 Dragons vs. 1 Wyrm in a rush-type match. OTK Dragon stalls would probably prefer Azure as well since there's no risk of drawing a Wyrm early and having your Sundials/Phase Shields/Wings weaken Wyrm through it's own gimmick.

 It is a good thing to use your imagination, but we try to create realistic cards here and every new and unique ability must be reasonable and not broken.   Some cards in ETG are a lot less "realistic" than their actual counterparts, such as Antimatter. Real life should be a base, not a limiter. (I'm also pretty sure I've been around this forum long enough to understand that this is also a 'fantasy' card game that has a balance system.)

I am not convienced the Azure/Sky dragon will be still as useful as before with a card like Essence Wyrm around, because:
1) Azure/Sky has not any ability other than airborne, Essence Wyrm has a pretty versatile ability...
2) Axure/Sky is less cost-effective/stats-effective than Essence Wyrm in high levels.
Azure D. is 10   for 9 | 6.
E. Wyrm is 11 for 11 | 11.
Sky D. is 12 for 13 | 7
E. Wyrm is 10 for 11 | 11

Unupped Dragon is faster to come into play and is less cost/atk efficient compared to Wyrm.
Upped Dragon is slower to come into play and is about equal in terms of cost/atk with Wyrm but has greater overall attack.


 The only drawback of your Wyrm is if compared with lower stats creature (<6), where it acts like an airborne vanilla versions of Abomination (5 for 5|5), Blue Crawler (3 for 3|3), Mind Flayer (2 for 2|2) or Skeleton (1 for 1|1). However, even with this drawback, you will still be able to play it as a last resolve.
It also has the drawback of becoming weaker when the player does not want it to and is slower/more expensive to come into play unupped. Mind Flayer and Skeleton may be weak but also have abilities that work on the field, while Wyrm doesn't. A "last resort" would probably require a lot of cards to go off the field for it to lose a considerable amount of cost, which implies you're already winning due to controlling your opponent's field or losing due to him controlling your field.

Anyway, despite my arguments, this card probably still needs a nerf. Expect a nerfbat in the next day or two.

[ZephyrPhantom]

Card updated:
Stats now equal cost -2 | -1 for upgraded.

[ARTHANASIOS]

Card updated:
Stats now equal cost -2 | -1 for upgraded.

I think now it is pretty well balanced. However, what about a rule like the following to apply in this card?
"This card's cost, max atk and max health cannot go below 3 from its ability."

[ZephyrPhantom]

Card updated:
Stats now equal cost -2 | -1 for upgraded.

I think now it is pretty well balanced. However, what about a rule like the following to apply in this card?
"This card's cost, max atk and max health cannot go below 3 from its ability."

Hmm, I'm not really sure if I see a point to that - it'd take a while for 9 cards to get off the field and that secondary ability seems to kind of negate some of the cons for the versatility as well as limiting some other situations it could be used in. (It also feels like a rather minor addition to a decently balanced card from my current point of view.)

How useful do you feel this secondary would be?

[ARTHANASIOS]

What about "this card's cost and stats cannot go below 1" in unupped and "this card;s cost and stats cannot go below 2" in upped version then? It just doesn't seem to be a mechanic which will prevent it from becoming a 0 0|0 creature which would die at the end of the turn summoned. That would be useful only in combo with Momentum or Blessing and the element of  has no atk|hp buffing cards.

[ZephyrPhantom]

Do you feel Essence Wyrm needs a "Minimum ATK | HP" cap to it's stats?

Perhaps a minimum of 1|1 or 0|0. Negative hp does not exist after all. Beyond that I do not see much of a purpose to restricting the cost.

What about "this card's cost and stats cannot go below 1" in unupped and "this card;s cost and stats cannot go below 2" in upped version then? It just doesn't seem to be a mechanic which will prevent it from becoming a 0 0|0 creature which would die at the end of the turn summoned. That would be useful only in combo with Momentum or Blessing and the element of  has no atk|hp buffing cards.

I'm guessing one would play the Wyrm before it became free (seriously, you need 11 | 10 cards to make it a 0 | 0 or 1 | 1), and chances are you'd be generating enough quanta to play it at some point in the game. At 0, it still would be immolation/death effect fodder, so I still don't see any reason to limit stats.

[Arum]

Pretty good. High cost for good stats. Only problem is if you have a essence wyvern leave play with this in your hand. Uh-oh. 0|0 creature.

I see where I made this mistake. The card text reads "Costs one less per card that left play. Attack and HP equal cost -2/1"
I got confused by the first part, as it should read, "Costs one less per card that leaves play. Attack and HP equal cost -2/1

[Zac33333]

I think it's a somewhat innovative Idea, but I really don't understand it's usefulness?

I mean, it's kinda like a gamble. You either hold it in your hand until your (or their) big creatures die, then reap the benifits, or you just throw these down and then they start playing expensive cards. Also, how does it work with cards that absorb all remaining quanta?

Like what if someone had 45  , then played Miracle, then this. Would you get a 43|43 creature?

[ZephyrPhantom]

I think it's a somewhat innovative Idea, but I really don't understand it's usefulness?
It's meant to be a 'variable' card - if you don't have enough to play it, you can play other cheaper cards to lower it's cost while weakening it at the same time.

I mean, it's kinda like a gamble. You either hold it in your hand until your (or their) big creatures die, then reap the benifits, or you just throw these down and then they start playing expensive cards. Also, how does it work with cards that absorb all remaining quanta?

Like what if someone had 45  , then played Miracle, then this. Would you get a 43|43 creature?

No. Essence Wyrm costs -1 per card that leaves play while it is in your hand - if you played a Miracle before you played it, a normal Essence Wyrm's cost would decrease by 1 ,  leaving it as a 10 creature with 9 | 9 when you played it next.